Current Features

Gouverneur Morris
America: A Christian Nation?
Ya Gotta Have Faith!
Not-Hearing: Two Examples
The Paradox of Public Advertising
Cleave; Sanction
Doomsday Clock: False Authority Fallacy
Politicians and Their Children
Eric Boehlert Knows Inner Motives!
What is the Purpose of Democracy?
One Mess Created, Time to Create Another
Christians Pursuing Happiness

Read the Front Page

Topics

Big Brother
Blogging
Computers and Technology
Crime and Punishment
Education
Entertainment
Europe
Everything You Know is Wrong
Faith and Philosophy
Faith and Politics
Features
France
Fun
General
Happy Stuff
Health
History
Human Rights
Humor
International
Iraq
Left Versus Right
Media Bias
Personal Notes
Politics
Product Reviews
Quick Alerts
Quixtar
Racism
Science
Science Fiction
Sexuality
Sick & Wrong Department
Society
The Arab Street
The Arts
The Church of Gaia
Travel
Words, Words, Words
Your Money

Archives

January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

Search


The Blogosphere

BitsBlog
Beyond the Rim
Common Sense and Wonder
Dissecting Leftism
Drive-Thru Musings
FunMurphys.com
Insignificant Thoughts
Insomnomaniac
Investor Blogger
Iowa Geek
La Shawn Barber
The Littlest Apologist
Mark D. Roberts
Quixtar Blog
Quixtar Sucks
The Right Scale
Sinking in Quixand


Embryonic Stem Cell Ethics

During a lecture, Nobel prize-winning* physicist Richard Feynman once said, regarding science, ethics, killing, and war...

I think that science and moral questions are independent. The common human problem, the big question, always is "Should I do this?" Its a question of action. "What should I do? Should I do this?" And how can we answer such a question? We can divide it into two parts. We can say, "If I do this what will happen?" That doesn't tell me whether I should do this. We still have another part, which is "Well, do I want that to happen?" In other words, the first question -- "If I do this what will happen?" -- is a least susceptible to scientific investigation; in fact, it is a typical scientific question... But the question "Do I want this to happen" -- in the ultimate moment -- is not. Well, you say, if I do this, I see that everbody is killed, and of course, I don't want that. Well, how do you know you don't want people killed? You see at the end you must have some ultimate judgement.

He continues:

You could take a different example. You could say, for instance, "If I follow this economic policy, I see there is going to be a depression, and of course, I don't want a depression." Wait. You see, only knowing that it is a depression doesn't tell you that you do not want it. You have then to judge whether the feelings of power you would get from this, whether the importance of the country moving this direction is better than the cost of the people who are suffering. Or maybe there would be some sufferers and not others. And so there must at the end be some ultimate judgement somewhere along the line as to what is valuable, whether people are valuable, whether life is valuable. Deep in the end -- you may follow the argument further along -- but ultimately you have to decide "Yeah, I want that" or "No I don't." And the judgement is of a different nature. I do not see how knowing what will happen alone it is possible to know if ultimately you want the last of the things. I believe, therefore, that it is impossible to decide moral questions by the scientific technique, and that the two things are independent.

If science and moral judgements are independent, then it follows that an expert in the science, the "what will happen" of, say, stem cell research (or fetal development) isn't necessarily an expert in the implied ethical questions: "What should we do? What tradeoffs are acceptable to make? What do we, the public, want?"

Automatically crediting a scientist with a special authority on the moral implications of their research is what's called the false authority fallacy -- where an authority is quoted, but not an authority on the matter in question. In reality he or she is typically no more a moral authority than you or I -- or perhaps even less so because of the vested monetary interest the scientist may have in certain avenues of research being permitted or funded.

So let's use our own powers of reason, shall we? Or at least I'll do so, publicly, since that's part of the fun and responsibility of blogging.

Its hard, in my experience, to have a discussion about embryonic stem cell research without tangentially or directly discussion abortion. Of course: We're discussing the fate of a fetus, a nascent human life, if not an actual one. In both cases, we can bring up arguments about convience, benefits, probabilities, and saving lives. And once we decide something is moral, immoral, or unknowable, we must decide, regardless of that answer, what our public policy should be.

Some are absolutely convinced that life begins at conception; others argue that until the fetus receives its social security number, it should not be considered a person. Me, I hold a third stance: I claim that I don't know. (And suspect most others don't know either.)

One might think such a position to be uncontroversial, but believe me, it has been... and it's often the "pro-choice" people who are the most upset about my, and their own (since I ask "But how do you know?) "agnosticism" in this area.

Why? Because the reasoning must proceed, as far as I can see, along these lines:

There's only two primary ways to think about "When a person becomes a person." The first is to believe that we, the people, have no inalienable rights -- meaning all rights, including personhood itself, are a social construction, bestowed if and when the state (or other collective) decides to grant them. And thus the state is also able to un-grant (i.e. revoke) "personhood" from people -- to have moral authority to declare them non-persons.

To understand the kind of society this assumption tends to produce, one need only to look to governments which have held this philosophy: China, the Soviet Union, and Nazi Germany, to name a few. Those of you still wanting to argue this position can stay after class and chat.

For the rest of us, who happen to agree with the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, we have to ask the question: "If people are granted inalienable rights -- then, at what stage of development are they granted? And what do we do if we don't actually know the answer in precise detail?"

To help myself consider the morality of dealing with something which may or may not be a "person" (at each point in development), I considered a cardboard box which might, or might not, contain a human being -- say, a small child.

What can I do to this box which may, or may not, contain a small person? Can I destroy it? Would that be ethical?

What if there's another life at stake? Say there's a woman locked in a cell over to one side, and unless I press this "Destroy Box" button, and destroy it and its contents, she's going to be killed. In this case, it seems I'm trading a certain life for a potential life. I can understand that tradeoff. But if I'm not certain the woman will really die if I leave the box intact, or, conversely, that she will still live even if I do not destroy the box, then I'm faced with a murkier picture: I have to weigh probabilities and take the action least likely to result, as best as I can tell, in bloodshed.

Now what about cases where something less than another human life is at stake. What about if I'm paid money to destroy the box? Some guy says: "Here's a box. A kid might be in it. Here's a million bucks and an Uzi. Fire away and you get the cash." Would that be ethical? Or, conversely, he's going to put me in jail for nine months if I don't shoot up the box. Is that moral?

Let's say I ask him, "What are the odds there's a person in it?" What if he says 50/50? Should I shoot the box then? What about one in four? One in ten? One in a hundred? When does it become acceptable for us to engage in a behavior which could potentially take an innocent life for our own convenience?

Drunk driving, a discretionary activity which has the potential to take a life, is widely considered immoral and is also illegal, punishable by jail time. The odds of being killed by a drunk driver in the US are about 1 in 18,000 annually. So we have laws banning activities with as little as 1/18,000 chance of taking a life. Are we sure embryonic stem cell research (or abortion) has an even lower chance than that?

The most disturbing aspect of the position many embryonic stem cell research proponents take is the failure to consider whether they are, in fact, advocating taking nascent human life on a massive research scale. The answer is assumed prima facie to be no, but when pressed, advocates cannot explain on what basis they are assured of their morality. They resort to descriptions: "Its a blastocyte" or "Its just a few hundred cells when we start" rather than ethical reasoning. But we can't, as Feynman points out, arrive at morality merely by describing processes; the central question remains unaddressed. And that's no way to make policy.

In the case of embryonic stem cell research, the refusal to think clearly is even more disturbing, since there's an alternative which is far less ethicially troublesome: research on adult stem cells.

The argument is posed that unless the U.S. federal government specifically funds embryonic stem cell research, scientific progress will come to a screeching halt: research will not occur. Of course, this is absurd. If I say you cannot have pie you don't stop eating. Likewise, if we encourage embryonic stem cell research, then adult stem cell research will be discouraged. And vise-versa.

The way we heard the debate positioned, we also might assume embryonic stem cells are some amazing fountain of youth -- a uniquely promising, astounding source of scientific progress and health that we're morons for neglecting. Yes?

No, actually. Adult stem cells, found in many places in the body in good quantity, are easier to obtain than embryonic stem cells. And scientists have good reason to believe they'll be able to be used for the same applications as embryonic stem cells. Next, all treatments based around adult stem cells have a huge advantage over embryonic stem cells -- since the adult stem cells can be taken from the patient's own body, there are no worries about rejections -- as would be the case with organs or tissue grown from embryonic stem cells. Last, in terms of practical results, I have encountered several many successful applications of adult stem cells. I have not encountered similar successes from embryonic stem cells.

So we have this odd situation, in which the more promising, ethical type of research is being degraded and ignored in the (vocal) scientific community, while a more ethically troublesome, less-promising type of research is whined loudly for, much as a spoiled child whines about not getting candy in the supermarket checkout line.

So I have serious ethical concerns about embryonic stem cell research, and feel that other alternatives should be pursued first.

* Feynman would have wanted you to disregard that accolade, and not accept his authority but think for yourself instead -- but I quote him because I realize even -- or perhaps especially -- self-fashioned "scientific" types will more readily accept an argument you can quote an authority saying it. He's not an authority in this area, but I hope you'll accept the quote because it makes sense, as he would have wanted you to, not because some Swedish gentlemen gave him some paper. [return]

Comments

Those people who are not a member 'self-fashioned "scientific" type', are what I know as hippies (hypocrites) - you know, those who sit in an office chair babbling on about an issue which may or may not concern them at all.

They come up with this glamourous arguments about life (yeah, the Chinese, Russians and Nazi German - but not having a good look them American selves), and comes to a conclusion that because the situation is so dubious in benefits and 'almost certain in taking another human life'. My question to them is, how would you know it's a life? Do you NOT use your 'scientific' knowledge to predict that it's 'potentially' a human life? And with their shaky ground of 'when those human rights shall be granted', here is my scientific opinion - the law is right, if a pregnant woman's hurt and a miscarriage is resulted, it should not be considered a 'manslaughter' until there's neural activities in the foetus itself - which normally implies 9 weeks after conception.

If that thing doesn't even have the basic human capabilities - intelligence and freedom, which coincidentally both require some sort of brain - then who are we to say that 'it is potentially a human being?' At best, a foetus in the first few days is just a growing tissue (another question for the hypocrites to think about - extra-uteral conception, a fertilised egg dropped out of the end of the Fallopian tube and plants itself on the OUTSIDE of the uterus which eventually develops into a cancerous, tumour-like tissue, should that be 'respected' as a 'human-life' too? Since it's technically possible for it to become some sort of 'life', so should you just leave that tumour on the uterus? Good luck on you arguments on that one by the way.)

So once again to those in the office chair (however 'moral' they may be), if you, or any of your loved ones (indeed any living human being) is suffering from terminal illness, you will NEVER understand the urgency and despair of opening yourselves up to ANY possible treatment - so say all you like on your 'moral grounds', scientific/medical researches will go-on regardless - create a revolution with your mouths and pen & paper if you want - you are just wasting your time and you know it.

Cheers.

Posted by: Z.H. on April 14, 2005 04:50 AM

ZH,

Those people who are not a member 'self-fashioned "scientific" type', are what I know as hippies (hypocrites) - you know, those who sit in an office chair babbling on about an issue which may or may not concern them at all.

First, you say "May or may not concern them?" You're excoriating someone for talking about an issue which may concern them? No, you need to state it as simply "may not" to make your case. Your failure to do so suggests your not so sure about your own stance, or that you're perhaps trying to be deliberately obscure.

And I take it you yourself never discuss issues which don't concern you directly? Or are you, in fact, being a hypocrite by holding others to standards which you don't apply to yourself?

I'm not saying this to attack you, but it's a valid question, since you think people who you think are "uninvolved" shouldn't even discuss such issues. I'd be interested in knowing if you apply such an extraordinary rule to your own life and behavior.

Call me a sceptic.


Next, your argument that people not directly affected shouldn't be concerned is absurd: Such an argument could easily be used to justify the holocaust. "What are you worried about what we're doing to the Jews? You're a Protestant. It doesn't concern you."

You see, if human life is being taken, it concerns everyone.

But you want to seem to want to shut down the very debate necessary to arrive at (or refute) such a conclusion about human life being taken. You are reasoning in a circle: "You can't debate whether embryonic stem cell research takes a life because we have concluded it doesn't, which is the my grounds for arguing you shouldn't be concerned and debate the topic." The debate necessarily preceeds the conclusion, but you use a hoped-for conclusion to try to prevent the debate.

Why not just clearly win the debate with your superior information and arguments? Experience tells me those trying to shut down the debate itself are usually those having the weaker position, and something to hide.


Finally, what is hypocritical about being concerned about the potential taking of another's life, even if it doesn't affect you?

No, the hypocrisy lies in the other stance -- of only being concerned when it's your life being taken. It was a tragedy when it happened to you, but not at all important when it happened to someone else.


They come up with this glamourous arguments about life (yeah, the Chinese, Russians and Nazi German - but not having a good look them American selves)...

I have no idea what you're on about here. What "glamorous arguments" are you talking about? That unborn children are human? Why is that "glamorous"? And what does it have to do with Nazi Germans -- who rejected such an idea, were "pro-choice" and used attribute-based definitions of "human", much as you seem to?

Again, I'm not saying this to imply you're a Nazi, but I think you're misinformed about when and how Nazis accepted or treated life as "human". As they used functional-based definitions very much like the one you're employing (the feeble or retarded are not fully human, etc.) it seems you're standing in a glass house when you choose to lob this particular stone at your perceived enemies.

It also seems you've dutifully absorbed your media's reflexive anti-Americanism and feel compelled to vomit it out here, as though all opponents of stem cell research were Americans, or vise-versa. It's a non-sequitur, clearly, but one which reveals a bit about how easy you must be to influence using mass media and hatred. (Are you entirely unaware of a similar regime in Europe which used those same tactics not too long ago? Shouldn't you reject such bigotry, then?)


... and comes to a conclusion that because the situation is so dubious in benefits and 'almost certain in taking another human life'.

This is what is called a "straw-man" argument -- to falsely restate your opponent's argument in order to make it easier to refute. It is a logical fallacy.

First, the argument I offer above is clearly not based on the the idea it is "almost certain" to take a human life. Instead, it is based on the belief it's only "possible" -- and a very low probability at that -- that abortion or embyronic stem cell research takes a human life. (Hence I use the term "agnosticism".) Yet I argue it holds even in that case.

You should really try reading it before responding.

The second straw man argument here is that people say the benefits of embryonic stem cell research are "dubious". That may or may not be so, but it's not a basis of the argument I'm making here, so it's specious to pretend I have.

(If asked, I would have to say that the evidence so far has shown adult stem cell research to be the more promising venue (and thus should be pursued first and most vigorously), but, again, that's not the basis of the argument, as you falsely imply.)


My question to them is, how would you know it's a life?

Did you even read the argument above? It isn't based on knowing for sure an embryo is a "life" -- it's based on a frank admission we're not sure it isn't. You seem incapable of even acknowledging, much less addressing the argument being made here.

That speaks poorly of the strength of your position.


Do you NOT use your 'scientific' knowledge to predict that it's 'potentially' a human life?

If you had read the article above, you would see that it uses the very term "potential life". You seem to be having a debate with someone else.


And with their shaky ground of 'when those human rights shall be granted'...

I apologize. My phrasing was unclear here. I should have said "endowed", not "granted" -- which you undoubtedly took to mean "granted by society." I don't believe rights should be viewed "granted by society", as it leads to all sorts of nasty situations. (See: "USSR")


... here is my scientific opinion - the law is right, if a pregnant woman's hurt and a miscarriage is resulted, it should not be considered a 'manslaughter' until there's neural activities in the foetus itself - which normally implies 9 weeks after conception.

So in your view, a fetus thus becomes "human" nine weeks after conception?

There are two problems with your argument.

First, it appears to be "unscientific", since it doesn't seem to get the basics of fetal development right:

Foetal Brain Development

The brain begins to develop very soon after conception as brain cells begin forming at the tip of the embryo. By 3 1/2 weeks, this neural tube begins to expand and mature to form the spinal cord and brain. Within the neural tube, brain cells or neurones begin to develop and send messages to each other.

There are clearly "neural activities" long before the ninth week. As long as neurons exist, there will be "neural activities." Perhaps you should have based your argument in "self-awareness" or other higher threshhold, rather than "neural activity"?

Perhaps you were basing this on the [UK] law. Understandable. But no reputable scientist would ever look to a body of law for guidence in the correct state of scientific knowledge. Likewise, if you truly believe what you say, then if science found evidence of "neural activity" before the ninth week, would you argue the law was wrong?

The next point in this vein is that you don't seem to understand that embryonic stem cell research violates your own stated ethical rule, here. In order to produce, say, a liver, pancreas, or neural tissue, the embryo must differentiate enough to produce those things (and all of them) in quantity -- which means you must develop it at least to (and more than) the eighth or ninth week of development -- the very threshhold you suggest for the start of "life". The very differentiation point you use as a marker for the start of life is a threshhold commonly exceeded in order to do meaningful embryonic experimentation.

I am always amazed at the ignorance of those who love to portray themselves as scientific experts. I'm not -- I'm just a layman -- so you should be ashamed to have me, who professes ignorance, correct you, who professes authority.

Finally, you still miss Feynman's point: Knowing what happens (science) doesn't tell you what your policy should be. Science can certainly tell us when "neural activity" begins. But it is a metaphysical or philosophical proposition, and one thus not directly answerable by science, to then define "life" as "neural activity" (or define "humanity" as "intelligence" or "freedom"). Your argument in this matter is just as metaphysical as any opponent of yours, only they at least admit and understand that.

Part of understanding science is knowing its limits, as Feynman did.


If that thing doesn't even have the basic human capabilities - intelligence and freedom, which coincidentally both require some sort of brain - then who are we to say that 'it is potentially a human being?'

So your definition of "human life" is now that one must be intelligent and free?

So in your world, a severely retarded person is "less" of a person because they have an intelligence level below yours? If a person has the IQ a bit below a smart dog, are they then less "human" than the dog?

What about a person in prison? That person lacks "freedom". Are they suddenly unhuman? If not, then what kinds of freedom do you mean? Freedom to what? Does a fetus in the eighth month have any more "freedom" than in the eighth week? If not, then why would you say the [UK] law is "right" for differentiating between the two?

As stated, this definition seems to contradict your other statements.


At best, a foetus in the first few days is just a growing tissue (another question for the hypocrites to think about - extra-uteral conception, a fertilised egg dropped out of the end of the Fallopian tube and plants itself on the OUTSIDE of the uterus which eventually develops into a cancerous, tumour-like tissue, should that be 'respected' as a 'human-life' too? Since it's technically possible for it to become some sort of 'life', so should you just leave that tumour on the uterus? Good luck on you arguments on that one by the way.)

I don't see the difficulty there. It lacks even the "potential" to become a human life. No forming heart, no forming lungs, no forming brain, etc. Left to itself, there is zero chance it could have developed into human being. Even your opponents would readily admit that.

You clearly think you've dropped an ethical stumper, but it's no more interesting or challenging than a dead baby or adult. Genetically, it's human. Though no longer "alive", cell function continues (fingernails, hair grows for days, etc. -- and that could be continued indefinitely if moved to an artificial medium) but it is now "dead" in the sense of lacking even the remotest potential for future life.

Of course, you're arguing in circles anyway, since you based the question on a situation many of your opponents oppose already. They would undoubtedly view the procedure responsible for this situation as having "killed" the embryo in question.

But it's tangent: you still seem to be avoiding the argument I've actually made.


So once again to those in the office chair (however 'moral' they may be), if you, or any of your loved ones (indeed any living human being) is suffering from terminal illness, you will NEVER understand the urgency and despair of opening yourselves up to ANY possible treatment...

First, many of the people involved in this debate do understand exactly what you claim they cannot -- perhaps better than you do:

My younger brother [47 years] and I were born with a form of Peripheral Neuropathy [now under the umbrella of Charcot-Marie-Tooth Disease]. We're both in wheelchairs for about 35 years now. Our upper-arms, lower-arms, wrists, hands, fingers, thighs, lower-legs, ankles ['turned-in' from birth, requiring corrective surgeries], feet and toes are affected. No muscle-driven movements, due to residual neuro-damage.

Stem cells could perhaps be our saving-grace some day [soon would be nice], but the very concept of harvesting stem cells from human embryos is as repugnant as suicide. It is barbaric.

By your own guidelines, your views probably count a great deal less than his.

Your argument seems to be that if one person has a need, we shouldn't be debating whether another person might be harmed. Such arguments are the tools of totaliatarians.


... so say all you like on your 'moral grounds', scientific/medical researches will go-on regardless - create a revolution with your mouths and pen & paper if you want - you are just wasting your time and you know it.

Is there anything factually correct or honest in your argument?

Clearly, there are some people who are not open to being persauded. Their minds are made up, and they're not interested in the evidence. Are you one of them? I don't seem to be such a person, having changed my own views on this over the years, and as the state of science on this issue has progressed. I believe, just as I could be persuaded, there are some others open to thinking about the issues and weighing them before acting.

I'd also like to think public opinion makes a difference. Perhaps in your country, that's no longer true. If so, you have my heaftfelt sympathy: we're facing the same problem over here with the courts.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps, no matter what happens with public opinon, those in favor of this kind of experimentation will go ahead anyway. In that case, you're admitting proponents of this are also people who are not interested in democracy, in the idea that the legimacy of government is derived form the consent of the those governed.

Finally, even if you're right, and things will go ahead regardless, I'm one of those annoying people who think it's still worthwhile to speak out against what's wrong -- to bear witness against it -- whether or not that has any noticable effect in the here and now. Perhaps I'm a fool for being that way, but I'm probably in good company.

Oh yes, but I'm not allowed to make such analogies. Because we all know no life is being taken, and thus can't even begin to debate whether that's so. Even though life is being taken, when judged even by your own standard (developed to the point of diffentiation and specialization, such as to produce neurons).

Thanks for the lesson in science and logic!

(Not to mention in avoiding the stated argument.)

Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on April 14, 2005 05:38 PM

Add your two cents...

The comment rules will apply. Please post only once.

















« Daschle's Comments | Front Page | Page Two | Recent Stem Cell Miracles »