The Quixtar/Amway Sales Pitch
Quixtar
| November 10, 2003
| Tim
Recently a friend of mine called to tell me about "business opportunity" she had. I smelled something I'd heard many times before, but I'm a bit concerned about her, and was worried about the character of this new thing. So it was worth hearing the pitch -- if I decided it was yucky, I could warn her about it; it if looked great, then why not get involved?
(Yes, of course I'm skeptical, but I'm also open-minded. They're not incompatible, you know.)
I was initially a tad annoyed that, without previous warning, she introduced me to her "mentor" and asked if I'd mind if she'd join us. But, hey, what the heck, it's a sales pitch anyway: not to be confused with a tete-au-tete meeting with friends.
So they did the spiel: You buy products, which are "better than those found in stores" at a substantial discount, and also earn points by signing up friends. Sounded a bit like Amway, which my parents had had a brief brush with in the past: friends tried to talk them into it. They tried a few products, decided they didn't like 'em, and didn't go any further. Eventually, the friends who did it also quit later, apparently disillusioned.
Turns out Quixtar, the company behind this pitch, was started by the Amway people and is owned by the same parent company, Alticor. I suspect it was to get around problem associated with bad reactions to the Amway name in the U.S.
But there's an added twist here. This particular group has sort of "positioned" itself (marketing-wise) as an ethical way of helping improve people's lives. There's a real "Christian" twist to this particular sales angle.
So we talked a bit, they drew out pictures, and we're going to meet again in a number of days, of course. And I've been left with the customary token bits of literature.
The Issue: Saturation
The most important ethical issue, as far as I can see it, is a little thing called "saturation." Part of the income you receive is from adding people to the organization. In a (hypothetical) static population, you're eventually going to have signed up all the people who going to want to sign up. When this happens, those at the lowest levels of the "pyramid" have the least good deal.
The question, then, is (a) can this happen, and (b) if so, what is the status of those people at the bottom of the pyramid when saturation is reached. If those people will still be pretty happy with things (say, the products they are buying are the major part of the benefit, and they're just dynamite), then the organization is ethical.
And if not (the products aren't the bulk of the income, or they're not good, or they've "invested" costs which will never return) then the situation is inherantly unethical, and would appear to conflict to me with the biblical principle of "doing unto others as you would have them to do you," since the broader you grow your network, the more people you'll "shaft" in the end.
Does Saturation Happen?
The Quixtar/Amway people say there's no such thing as "saturation". This page, written by a guy whose wife used to do it, details four common arguments against it, with his own responses, most of which I find are reasonable.
Saying "this isn't for everyone" only means the market is smaller than the population: e.g. that if saturation will occur, it will occur faster since there are less potential customers. Calling those who ask a "loser" is a way of telegraphing that we aren't on friendly terms with honest inquiry and accountability.
Then there's "it hasn't happened". This seems true because the business is expanding globally (66% of it's income is currently coming from Asia). Since most of us aren't going to be travelling to Tanzania, we need to think only about the impact in a relatively "closed" market, like the city I live in, within driving distance.
So we're left with the argument that a person turns 18 years old every minute. According to the CIA World Factbook, the US population growth is .95%, which means that each year, for each American like me, one old geezer dies, one young pup turns 18 is can now be marketed to, and there's one new person added for each hundred we already have.
When saturation is reached in some local area or market, it means that your average bottom-level IBO (their term for a person you sign up) will be stuck with be 1.01 new people per year for quite a long time.
So how is life at that level?
Life on the Bottom
That's the golden question: if life at the bottom is good, we have ourselves a valid business opportunity. But if life at the bottom sucks, we're basicly playing a geometrically-multiplying version of "hot potato", and each new person we add means there are several more who will now get burned.
From what I hear, they undersell the expenses and time commitment needed to get started. First, there's a $200 up-front comittment. Not too bad. But then, I hear, one is required to purchase $70 of products. (Most my shopping is perishables. I use about two bottles of shampoo a year or less.) Then you have to buy quite a lot of training materials -- listen to a tape every day, and read a new book every month. Then there's a subscription fee (how much?) and, from what I hear, participation in a voice mail system. Then there's also various seminars to attend (how often?), which are within "driving distance". (I inquired futher, and found that halfway across the continent is considered "driving distance".) So add some seminar costs and two more days on the bus, or expensive plane tickets, and hotel fees.
So what's the outlay here? $500? $1000 per year? More?
Now the question is, at saturation, how will this balance against the savings you get from buying household products at a discount? And that 1.01 new person you can sign up every year?
My guess is currently that it won't look good, but I'll be seeing what my friend has to say about her expenses. I'd also guess, if the answer given by Quixtar/Amway is that "saturation doesn't occur", then it means they're not comfortable with the idea it will be, and hence, that they've actually realized people will get burned in that scenario.
Further, I've heard it said you have to "make platinum" before one starts getting ahead. If so, the entry levels are definitely not break-even scenarios.
How Far 'Till Saturation?
Currently, my friend's IBO# is in the 300,000 range. This would seem to me to indicate that there are still about 1000 people left for each Quixtar IBO to approach and sign up. The fan-out rate they suggest is 3 "plan showings" per week (150 per year) and gaining a network of 6 people.
If so, that means there are about 3-4 layers left into which to expand: and each one is going to be a harder sell, since more and more of them will be people who have heard "the plan" already (150 per year per member!) and rejected it. Or, if the average "team" size is smaller, this expansion could last a bit longer.
Either way, it means that you either get less than 6 people on average, or that it's going to collapse sooner. My guess is the former, since it's been going for quite a while. Which means estimates based on the plan I'm shown, with 6 people, are unlikely to be an accurate statement of average results.
Is This Decision for You?
It's clear to me, with 1,000 people still available per IBO, there's a lot of money to be made from this. If you're the kind of person who doesn't feel uncomfortable with the idea someone further down the line might find it impossible to recoup the portion of your Lexus they've contributed, then this might be something you'd consider.
At this point, my understanding of Christian ethics constrains me from this idea. Since I recognize this gets inherantly "harder" for each new person signed in, I have to consider that, not for me, but for those I would "sign up". And, eventually, I have to consider whether I'm doing "unto" the guy at the bottom of the pyramid the same thing I'd want done to me in his situation.
Doesn't look good from what I'm seeing so far.
Further, the absense of open books or independent audits, accurate information on failure rate among new signups, etc. seem inconsistent with Jesus' directive that we walk publicly, in the light. Yes, I can ethically keep my own income secret, but this is a company that wants me to sign up. If all is well and good, they why won't they show me that data?
This kind of business doesn't seem to mesh well with Christian ethics...
On Christian Ethics
I'm not meaning to imply those who are selling this business are knowingly being unethical. The ones I spoke to seem like nice people who appear, as best as I can find, to say nice Christian, ethical words. But it's possible for "good" people to unknowingly propagate a bad thing.
The business model itself can be unethical, but if it is escapes detection, those promulgating it can still be acting in what they think to be an ethical fasion.
My Responsibility
I'm not liking where this is going, sadly. I must now get the startup costs, and understand how bad things will be for those trapped at the bottom. And also assess how difficult it is to get accurate information.
If the case can be made that the bottom is a fine place to live, I'm done. I might even buy some products to see how they are. If they're good enough to buy for their own sake, there's nothing wrong with selling them.
But if not, then the core business itself is actually signing up new people, not selling products. And we have ourselves a pyramid scheme, whatever we might call it.
And, if so, then (here's the scary part) the most moral thing one can do is to ensure it reaches saturation as soon as possible, and thus collapses with as little damage as possible.
In other words, I fear game theory, plus my understanding of Christianity* would dicatate that my own responsibility may be to "innoculate" as many people as I can, thus artificially constricting my own local market, and ensuring a local "collapse" as soon as possible, with as little collateral damage as possible.
[*In addition, I've never been comfortable seeing a pit-trap but walking away leaving it for the next victim, thinking: "It's not my problem." We don't have to fix the world, no, but when something comes on our own radar screen, we suddenly have to make a choice.]
It would probably hurt my friend, and very possibly make her angry with me (try to picture this, folks) but it's better, morally, than allowing her actions to eventually culminate in a hundred "leaf nodes" (or people at the bottom of the pyramid) who will never see $500 each (or more) and countless hours returned.
Sometimes I dread the things I'm compelled to do.
This may cost me a friend.
This is not uncommon territory for me, sadly.
Why not let people decide for themselves?
That's the exact point.
If (if!) this thing is not kosher, then "the threat" here is not people, but rather a "mind-virus" unleased by those at the top of the 'pyramid'; an idea which spreads best when only partial information is presented. (Such as understating initial costs, or denying the possibility of saturation.)
The solution to such a problem is to present the rest of the information, or an alternative view. I can't make it spread in the same geometric manner (or can I? interesting thought!) and let people make up their own mind.
Since I firmly believe that people who sign up now, if they work hard, will make money (and possibly lots of it!), it means my primary responsibility is to those who would get stuck in the saturation condition, and secondly to warn those I know now from doing something they might regret once they figure out what I think I'm seeing already.
And I don't see how I can get out of that one. Especially since all I'll have to do is e-mail this blog entry, or a more accurate version of it, updated with accurate costs, to all the potential targets I know and let them decide for themselves.
Tell me if you think I'm off-base here.
Further Reading
You are not off base. You have articulated one of the most rational and common sense appraisals of what is a rather confusing and mysterious business.
The sad truth is that you indeed may lose a friend over this and I'm still searching for other "legitimate" businesses where friendships are so routinely lost by simply declining to participate in the business.
Excellent post. Everyone who's "thinking" about doing it should read the post. I've been in for a year and I'm pulling out. I don't regret it because I've learned some valuable things from it. You are right on track about everything. I've made the decision to pull out because I finally got my head out of the system and looked from a different view. My biggest issue is that I don't want to screw people over in the end just so I can get a few more bucks. The people in this business always bash major corporations for getting people to earn the corporation the most amount of money while paying the employee the least amount of dollars. Same freakin' principle. Except there is no minimum wage. The average Quixtar IBO works their butt off to pay upline Platinums+ and gets paid like under 120 a month. Of course this comes up as "but do you consider yourself average?". But what the hell is average? If everyone doesn't consider themselves as average, then considering you're not average becomes an average and thus making you average. Anyway, there's one advantage this thing has over a corporation. You can be the one who screw more people over than anyone else and earn tons of money. Where as in a corporation, you aren't given the opportunity. Ah...I love how they make you learn to be positive...so you can take a negative thing and give it a positive twist. Isn't freedom of speech great? No where else can a poor person accumulate so much from other poor people that that person can be rich except in MLM :)
Years ago we went to a subdivision fall festival where we met this really friendly couple. We both had a small child and we had a great time together. A couple of days later they called and asked if they could come over and talk about something important with us. So they came over and made a pitch for us to join a pyramid scheme (yes Virginia, multi-level marketing = pyramid scheme). I politely but firmly told them no. That was the last my wife and I ever heard or saw them again - the whole point of them going to the subdivision party was to drum up business.
A couple of years ago a coworker got hooked up with Quixstar. He was constantly talking about it and was obsessed with the idea of owning his own business. He gave me a tape to listen over the weekend that he said "you'll enjoy". Well, it was a pitch by some black conservative to stop being a wage slave and get off the plantation like he did. I told the guy the truth - that I'm not a salesman, and so I'd never join anything like quixstar because I wouldn't be any good at it. I want to make things, not sell them. But a couple of guys at work did want to join, and they'd spend hours talking about it at work.
Out of politeness I didn't tell the two recruiters that I find pyramid schemes to be morally objectionable - stealing from (at worst) or using (at best) friends (or people who I would pretend to be a friend to) would be how I would describe it. I guess I'm an old fashioned guy and feel that you should earn your money by providing a real product or service, not just trading on greed.
Interesting points Kevin. It seems all too often that MLM/Quixtar people will pitch anyone and everyone to get them involved. Many times they don't even consider whether or not the person is interested let alone has the ability it takes.
Good srtudy, Ken. However the Amway/Quixtar scheme can be profitable. However it also can put you in the poor house. I got in and out of this business 5 times and I have finally concluded that it can work and just like any other business it will work if you work it. the real negative is the pushing of the people that signed you up...they push and push, but at the same time they tell you it is your business. there are tax breaks, you can just sell the products, you can contract to sell to a company that uses a large volum of the products. there are numerous ways to earn money. however for me the continued lies got to me. I already read positive books, I want to chose which ones, not be dictated to as to the ones I must read. in every busines there are seminars to attend but a new business does not go out and spend hundreds on seminars until they are ready to expand. And like any other business you will need more than a 200 dollar kit to succeed. Additionally, like any other business, do your research. Dont let someone push you into something that may not be for you. to me it never mattered how much the other guy was making. I was in it for me. I made a lot of money,had a European distributorship. Worked the program in Prague. never made a dime, but Prague sure was fun. never a living but it was an extra income and a tax break for the real job i had. So it can be advantageous. Seminar and organizational skills are also needed,along with sales skills. So you have to be a kind of multifacted business person. AND they dont tell you that before signing you up.....It is always the 3 hours per week work schedule they tell you about. Absolutely false. In this business as any other,to be able to succeed you have to work 7 days a week..and dont you forget it, ever
Thanks for the review. I am a college student and I was approached by one of my friends' roomates, wishing to help me financially, by getting me into the Brit World Wide organization (which uses Quixtar as a supplier). Everything I heard from him and the other people in the business with him praised the organization greatly, but I still had doubts. Part of the reason for my doubts was that none of the people I knew made any real money in the business. Sure, when I went to the meetings, there were people who were "doing well", but no one talked about really how well they were doing. I was not able to find any information about how many of the people joining the organization actually made a decent amount of money from it.
They make "the plan" sound so easy, and make it sound like everyone who joins will get rich quickly, but I dont really believe it anymore. I have always felt that something which is too good to be true, is. I talked with many of my friends and relatives and they all had negative things to say about the organization. I guess they were probably right. Quixtar is Amway online. The name was changed probably to avoid the negative feelings many people had about Amway.
The meeetings one can attend to "learn" about quixtar and how to use it, are mainly emotional hype. This hype is designed to get people really excited about the possibility of getting rich easily while "helping others", and to make them forget all the questions which could expose what the business really is. I think that someone could get rich in this business, but it would take ALOT more work than they will tell you. And, I agree that it involves "using" your friends.
I think it is so important to research anything you may decide to get involved in...But I also think think you should be careful where you go for advice and information. If I had a back problem, i wouldn't go to a dentist. On the same hand if you are looking to be successful, ask people who have the kind of success you want. Not just financial success, but happiness and peace. It seems that those who dedicate their live to criticizing Quixtar/Amway are in far worse shape than those so-called "users" who are in the business and are genuinely trying to make a difference in the world and in their own lives. True, this business may not be for everyone, and as in ANY business you will find those who misrepresent the intended goals of the plan, but ultimately this is a business that sets up a support system unlike any that you can find in the corporate world. Sure everyone has a financial agenda to some degree (isn't that why people go to work everyday--and that doesn't make them thiefs or users) but many "haters" in America dont like the business because people pride themselves on their "individuality" and the Brit System is fashioned so that people can lean on one another and help eachother reach goals.
Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success, happiness, morals, goals, old-fashioned hopes and dreams. Some of those people work in corporate America, some work a trade, others are independent business owners. I can tell you for sure that none of those people make it their life's mission to defame the reputation of a company that has helped so many people.
If a mail carrier decides that he isn't happy with his job and it isn't for him/her, he/she doesn't tell all the others to quit and tell people to stop recieving mail from the United States Post Office. Just accept that it isn't for you and move on.
I have been thinking of getting involved with the business for a while and reading such intense criticism makes me want to get involved even more. Obviously this business is successful and this makes people very angry. With greatness comes intense opposition. I realize that it is hard for people to think out of the box. I understand the facts and the work that is required to be successful and I can't wait to jump in...I know i am not alone.
And as for the last comment: Sometimes we don't have enough emotional "hype" in our lives...especially when it comes to something positive like this business.
Crystal,
You wrote:
I think it is so important to research anything you may decide to get involved in...But I also think think you should be careful where you go for advice and information... Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success...
You seem to be implying the best way to "research" an organization is not to ask anyone outside of it about it. I fear for your credulity.
Crystal, Quixtar has two million active IBOs. It has, by it's own admission, less than 3,000 millionaires ("only Microsoft has more" they say, and Microsoft has about 3,000). This means less than 0.15% of Quixtar IBOs are millionaires. In the general population, 3.5% of the people are millionaires.
So people outside of Quixtar are, on average, much more financially successful than those inside. Quixtar's own stats will show you this if you just pick up a calculator.
... in ANY business you will find those who misrepresent the intended goals of the plan ...
Yes, but in this business, misrepresentation (don't show too much data, don't tell them their real chances, don't even identify the true name of the business early on ("Amway/Quixtar")) seems to be the actual desired mode of behavior.
Strikes me as unethical.
It seems that those who dedicate their live to criticizing Quixtar/Amway are in far worse shape... many "haters" in America dont like the business... reading such intense criticism makes me want to get involved even more. Obviously this business is successful and this makes people very angry.
Wow. You didn't actually read anything I'd written, did you? "Itense criticism?" I said I might actually buy some of the products.
Of course, the logic here is hilarious. Many people hate this organization. Therefore, I must get involved immediately! (So are you applying for Al Qaeda membership also?)
The deception is equally hilarious. "Crystal" is clearly Quixtar-trained. She echoes all the lines they tell their people to give. Then she implies she's "thinking about getting involved with the business". As if she wasn't obviously in Quixtar already and acting as an apologist!
That, Crystal, is what I call "deception." (And a pretty lame one at that.) It's not what I'd call "moral", though that's a term you have associated above with people who do such things.
Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have... dreams...
Don't go to someone who has dreams for advice. Saying you have a "dream" is just shorthand for saying you don't yet have the success you desire.
Since I meet lots of people in Quixtar with "dreams", but few who are currently satisified, I suspect I'm dealing with a pretty unsuccessful group. Instead, this constantly unfulfilled "dream" seems to be a carrot, dangled in front of the mule, to keep it endlessly pulling the cart.
When I go to church, I see a group of people who have found something beyond what they'd dreamed. But it's not a dream of this world: It's something beyond that yacht or summer home. Perhaps you'd call Jesus a loser, being poor as he was. The apostle Paul likewise. Consider, then, the implications of a value system which portrays these men as losers.
I hope sometime, Crystal, you find yourself satisified. Not complacent, but with a peace and security you can't hope to gain through more money or Quixtar. There is nothing more important in life than that.
And I hope you stop deceiving people, as you obviously attempted to try to do in your posting here.
I wish you the best.
- Tim
Tim,
Get a life, please. Regardless of the pros or cons of the Quixtar business, you have a website to just regurgitate your negativity and personal opinion without allowing others to have theirs. Way to go, Chrystal! If you believe you can have a better way of life in the Quixtar business, I am sure you will. Tim is obviously bitter due to his own lack of personal success!
Well i was approached a couple of days ago in school by a young kid that attends classes with me. He and I are both in the same major and plan on going into the same feild.. HOWEVER.. he told me about Quixtar..saying while he sat there in class with me he was making money. Well he actually said that he makes about 1,600 dollars a month. That is decent money. Yet he still lives at home with his parents and tells me that he has to get good grades or his parents will kick him out. Making that kind of money he shouldn't worry about that;)... So my first reaction was........HOAX...LIAR...and now im glad that i have not got into it with him... .. yes he gave me the whole sales pitch and schemes about what they do and how they do it... yeah thats nice... he showed me pictures of people that had mansions and all that crap...however he didnt show me other people in the group that were where he is..at the bottom.. my guess is that they are not glorious rich folk but people sinking there own money into the lost cause of get rich quick...so just saying watch what you do with your money and you will be as well off as those that watch what YOU do with your money:)
I just love it how proponents of Quixtar all seem to have telepathic powers and can tell someone is bitter, broke, unsucessful, etc. by just reading someone's thoughts online! I tell you, if you really want to make money, nurture this gift, Scarlet, because it will more than likely pay you much more in the future then Quixtar!
What does Quixtar mean to me? Lies, Half-truths. Deceptions.
I was presented "the business opportunity of a lifetime" by some friends of my wife this past August. Being in the middle of moving, and not taking the time I wanted to take to research Quixtar, I took them almost at face value. The model sounded familiar, and I asked them if this was anything affiliated with Amway, but the denials of any relationship thereof were too numerous to count, and I fell for it.
Sadly, I was lied to, and that experience was just the beginning. Right after I signed up with my wife, we moved almost 700 miles away from our upline. The calls started as soon as our "support team" got our phone number. "Go out and make new friends." "Talk to people...most of the people who you sign up will be people you meet through this business." After meeting over 15 IBO's in my area, all of whom I had "prospected," the stark realization of saturation smacked me full in the face.
Over the last couple of months, I have been researching day and night, both pros and cons about Quixtar, and I've had enough. (I'll put it this way...I know so much more about Quixtar than my upline that I have been credited with "educating" and "compelling" them to try to get to "know the product lines and rules" of Quixtar. As this was sold to me, my upline support team was the group of experts, so I am forced to question how I can know more in 5 months than they can in years. Also, it would seem that their air of expertise at the time of showing the program was a deception. One must wonder.)
Recently, my upline mentors came out to visit, and I had it out with them about "the system" and the deceptions fed to me throughout the last 5 months. Imagine my shock when I was released from the "system." Initially, I was told that no expense should be spared to pal around with the pins, and that I needed the tapes and books. Now, I was being told that because I had problems with the Diamonds hawking non-Quixtar wares at usurious prices, I should just focus on "building [my] Quixtar-powered business." Basically, get bodies in the door, and we'll handle it from there.
As if that wasn't enough, I have to marvel at the profound level of ignorance and greed utilized by the Yeager Organization. They prey on poor folks like me by dangling the dream of going on 4-wheeling adventures through Utah with Dex and the gang. I've come to realize something over the past couple months: I wouldn't hang aroung with Dexter Yeager if I was paid to. I listened to that fool on the "If They Can Do It, You Can Do It" (CEC0309) tape and that man is as pompous a gasbag as they come. Aside from coming across as an arrogant, prod, and ill-educated man, good ol' Dex has no ability to teach anyone how to sell anything. I know whereof I speak, as I am in sales. Dexter Yeager and his gang will use good people to preach their pseudo-Christian, flag-draped siren song to anyone greedy enough or ignorant enough (me, 5 months ago) to listen, but, if you can put down your pride and greed, you can re-enter the world with principle and dignity by leaving Quixtar.
In summation, I want to thank the host for being honest enough and concerned enough to host this board and for writing his excellent articles. You are both thoughtful and brave. Many of these sites are being targetted, and I salute you for the work you are doing. Thank you and God bless you.
Tim,
In the beginning of your post you quoted my earlier comment:
'Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success...'
You forgot to finish it. I get my advice from those who not only have financial success but happiness, morals, goals.
Please Tim don't "fear for my credulity" because I seek advice from many avenues. Mostly outside the Quixtar/Amway sphere. Maybe if you are going to quote me in an attempt to caste off everything I say as a "deception," you should at least quote me in context. I also said, in regards to whom I consider successful in life:
"Some of those people work in corporate America, some work a trade, others are independent business owners."
To add to that Tim, some people I find to be most successful in life have very little money. But they don't have such a bitter, condescending attitude towards others.
Tim it also seems that you have the same gift that you claim Scarlet has. Your Telepathic gift has manifested and you are able to discern my integrity just by "reading my thoughts." I'm a "deceiver," according to you. Unfortunately Tim, the only gift I have is the freedom of Speech.
Tim you can refer to me as Crystal rather than "Crystal," because that is my real name. Is Tim your real name or should I call you Mr. Paranoia.
Tim, did it ever occur to you that someone who might pursue this business could be honest and moral and caring? I don't lie and I don't appreciate my character being ostracized by someone I have never met. I don't think you are a liar....I just think you are mean to others. What would Jesus say about that?
I am a Christian...I adore Jesus. My value system does not portray these men as losers. My dreams for my future have nothing to do with a "yacht or a summer home," but rather giving and taking care of others. I have peace in my life. I am successful. Please don't play God...you are on dangerous grounds when you do that. Don't try and judge those who want to make money...The Bible says that the love of money is the foot of all evil not money itself. I don't love money.
FYI Tim: I don't want to join the Al-Queda (although that was a nice warm touch from someone who wishes that I find "peace"), in fact, Persuing a walk with God comes with high opposition that I am pretty much used to. That is more along the lines of what I was thinking about when I said that I can't wait to jump in. Jesus suffered the most intense opposition did he not? It seems you want to be the star and try to throw low blows about my faith. I could do the same by saying that your comments about Jesus and Church are totally nagated by your bitter attitude. Jesus loved people.
I posted a comment not to criticize an individual but to challenge a means by which past hurt and bitterness is conveyed.
If you want to help people Tim, change your tone. Let people decide truth for themselves. If their is guile in this business...Then I hope I will be smart enough to recognize it and moral enough to change it. Your ranting won't change my mind. I am sorry that you had a bad experience. If fact I will now finish reading your story to find our more about what you went through. But don't let yourself become paranoid of everyone that offers an opposing opinion. You are not the only moral person in this world.
I am not "programmed" by Quixtar. And yes, at the time of my last post I had not yet became an IBO in this business. I have been overviewing numerous sites to try and gather as much information as possible, because I want to know more. If you werent so paranoid you could see that I have no motivation to lie or make up anything to share on a site with strangers who know or care nothing about me. I don't think people who are not in Quixtar are losers so you shouldn't think those who choose to be involved are losers.
I can't speak for every experience and every business owner...but I will not deceive or misrepresent in any of my business dealings. I feel like the specific team I am a part of doesn't either.
Tim, before you start sharing your rudeness and condescension (cloaked as information and clever remarks), maybe you should consider that someone may come along and challenge not only your information (although I must say you make many great arguments), but your attitude.
Let's say hypothetically that mlm and Quixtar and all that jazz is a total fluke. I would be okay with it because I know I have no deceptive intentions nor do I care to be a part of anything that does. My team doesn't ostracize me for offering opinions and challenge my faith if I reject theirs.
If you have any further questions or comments about what I have written feel free to contact me.
Myself and one of my co-workers are both interested in Quixtar and we both think that what we have read here is interesting from both sides of the fence. However, you are all missing an important aspect of the business. Everyone thinks of Quixtar only as a get rich quick scheme. Now, I have heard both support and opposition from two self-proclaimed christians.....but, as christians, why are both of you only thinking about the system from the "get rich quick" aspect? I myself, have done alot of research into the products and prices and have found that my familiy can save alot of money by becoming IBO's and by buying bulk we can have enough food products left over to donate to a local food pantry. So, it is not only about getting rich, you can also use the system to help others while helping yourself. Perhaps you two should take enought time away from arguing with each other and putting each other down long enough to notice the important things.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
Hey...Looks like a QuixZombie found your site, Tim. :)
Bill...As an IBO, let me give you some friendly inside advice that no one bothered to give me. If seeking to save money on charitable food donations, consider "brick and mortar" alternatives. Regular stores don't come to your door, but think about this: How much money are you saving on no-name foods if you have to pay for them to be shipped to your door? The prices aren't bad on some things...it's the hidden costs that add up.
When you add those in, you might be surprised at the results: No-name goods at name brand prices. If you join, you can get used to that kind of thing. I use Quixtar for what I want, but the Quix-culture tries to force you to be happy about "bargains" that really aren't bargains. You don't have friends leverage you into buying overpriced products and perishable food items at any real-world supermarket, do you? You will have that in Quixtar. Sure, there are some deals, as with all stores, but in the end, when you consider all the factors, look for the hidden costs. I found that out the first time I ordered from the "me-mart."
It's very wise of you to try to make an informed choice. Just make sure you consider the hidden factors.
Josh,
Tell me about the hidden costs.
Tim,
My husband and I have been "hit" up about 6 seperate times with this "business." Every time we have politely said "no thank you." We have been talked to 3 times by 3 different people in our local Target. After being bombarded so many times we decided to give it a try. Well, more like, we'll listen to what they have to say. We had our first interview at a Starbucks, then we were invited to a "weekly meeting" because our interviewer said he wanted to take us to the next step. We went. I felt weird when I went into the meeting. All these couples with HUGE smiles on their faces and they were so sappy sweet it seemed fake. We sat through the presentation and it felt and seemed like a real deal. The next evening we were prompted to attend another meeting at someone's house. I was getting tierd of the whole process. We listened to the whole speel again by the guy who had recruited us. At the end of the evening we were made part of the team. To be honest I would have rather had a couple days to think about it and go home and discuss it with my husband and research it a little more. I'm much more cautious than my husband and tend to think through things more carefully. Well, here we are in this little business that I'm not sure we should be in. Last night we were asked to come over our "Leaders" house for another meeting. This makes a meeting last Sat., another on Tues. another on Thurs. and one last night. I can't keep up that pace all the time. We live in the DC metro area and with a 2 hour commute everyday I am barely at home as it is and fight just to spend time with my husband and keep up with my ministries at my church. Honestly I think money can be made if you are willing to give up all your personal time and focus on this business. The family who introduced us to this is so sweet and they have wonderful children and they are just the kindest people you will ever meet. Honestly, I think they are succeeding at this, but they have been at it for 10 years. The wife does not work outside the home anymore and she raises their children, which is honorable. They are a sweet family.
Well, tonight we have no meeting, but Wed. is our weekly meeting that we MUST attend. Then Sat. we have another one. This is where we pay or $120/$140 registration fee. Sorry, but it's Christmas time and we don't have that much extra money to get this started, especially if it does not work for us. My first thought was, "if they are making so much money and they want to help us suceed then why don't they pay the reg. fee?" Probably a bad thought, but we can't pay that right now.
My concerns are:
1. Time - can't handle all the meetings with one a week being until 11p. Sorry.
2. Asking your friends to join. That is hard for me because I would be embarassed to approach a friend about this.
3. Their products. As far as I have been informed you have to spend $250 a month at their site. It is just my husband and I in our house and we only spend about $200 in groceries a month. I don't need to buy toothpaste, vitamins, detergent ect. every month. So I doubt I would ever produce my volume. Plus I am a bargan shopper and don't like paying for shipping. As soon as I was told about having everything delivered to my door my mind flashed $$$ signs regarding shipping costs.
The other thing I noticed, because we went to our "leader's" house last night, is that they have so much stuff. Like their vitamins took up a whole kitchen cabinet. I don't need that many vitamins. They had all kinds of protein shakes and bars ect. That is fine, but it seemed they had more than they will ever consume. to me that was a waste of money.
Like I said, I think people can make money with this, but not sure it will be us.
Bill...
In the interests of simplicity, let's start out with shipping costs. While I was informed that it "pays to order in bulk" (i.e., many essentials at once), this is only true to a point. As with most e-merchants, the price of shiping escalates proportionate to the total invoice amount, up to $750, after which shipping is free. If you transfer most of your needs to Quixtar, you will find that the amount you pay will escalate as the amount you order escalates.
On Quixtar, you will not find most of the perishable food items typical families consume . There are non-perishable foodstuffs listed, but you will discover that the only way to make Quixtar cost-effective is to "pad" your orders (ordering stuff you don't actually need) so that you don't waste space in your shipping bracket. This practice is reinforced by the end-of-the-month rush to fulfill your PV/BV bracket requirements. Normal folks order things on an "as needed" basis, but that shopping style would cause you to pay as much as 50% more for those items just to have the items shipped. Admittedly, on a grand enough scale, Ditto Delivery could be an answer to the problem, but I doubt many value shoppers would find enough on Quixtar to make it feasible.
Extra costs are to be found elsewhere, as well. If you cruise through the self-care and vitamin aisles of Quixtar, you will notice a vast price difference between Quixtar and your local grocery store. For example, you will pay $4.70 for a mediocre deodorant stick, and $28 for a bottle of one-a-day vitamins. Allegedly, these are the best products that America has to offer. I'm not so sure. Admittedly, SA8 works very well, but outside the Sweet 16 line, you're much better off cruising over to your regular grocery store. It's also worth noting that with the registration fees and tools, you can expect any "bargains" to count more toward bringing you out of the red than toward generating any real savings, let alone any profit.
The real hidden cost and con of Quixtar is the motivation industry, euphamistically known as "the system." The biggest problem with Quixtar is actually the people who use it as a vehicle to their own benefit, at the expense of others. In my Line of Support, that would be Bruce Anderson and Dexter Yeager and their minions. Unfortunately, Diamond-level distributors seem to thinks that they have the market cornered on both God's good graces and financial wisdom. They view it as their downline's duty to pay for advice, in the form of books, tapes, and seminars/meetings. The recommended consumption of these goodies is going to keep you from making money until at least Gold or Silver. And that's a rosy picture. Your "Support Team" will think nothing of directing you to drive 6 hours to a meeting, pay $70-$140 to get in the door, and pay for a hotel room for a weekend, all for the priveledge of listening to these Diamonds brag about how they did this out of the goodness of their hearts (actually, for a $10000-$20000 fee) and trumpet the use of more materials and attending more seminars. Forget life as you know it. You will have meetings locally at least once a week, and you will be expected to pay $10-$20 per week to attend these. (What better way to show your local team that you appreciate them.) If you opt out of one, prepare for "concerned calls" the next evening inquiring as to your whereabouts. And with all this going on, you are still reminded to show the plan 15 times a month. Forget the monetary cost for just a second. Where does the rest of your life fit into this equation for success? I contend that it doesn't.
These folks think that once you're in their organization, they have a right to hold you accountable for how you spend your money and your time. Believe it or not, if you decide not to use "the system," prepare to be treated like a disobedient child, rather than as a dissenting adult.
Overall, Quixtar is mediocre, but not evil of itself. Rather, it is the fat cats and scoundrels at the top, who knowingly brainwash and take advantage of those beneath them, that makes the lifestyle evil.
The Diamonds make more money off the motivation industry than they do from their "Quixtar-powered businesses." That fact alone should indicate the limitations of the "I-Commerce" business model.
Josh,
Thank you for your input. It is very helpful. Like I said before, I am not looking to get rich from Quixtar. I believe those that are are fooling themselves.
I have already told my potential sponsor that I am not interested in getting rich or "retiring" in 2 to 5 years. That's his goal and more power to him.
I'm also not too worried about the "pushyness" of my up-lines. I have no problem telling them I'm not interested in what they have to peddle and where they can stick it. It won't hurt my feelings at all.
I'm just interested in trying the business out and feeling around to see if there is anything I can pass along to others to help them out. Not, as many people mistake, to help them get rich.
I have done a lot of research on the Quixtar business opportunity and have found that the only people that have primarily negative comments to make have no real experience with it, or have failed when at one point they beleived they could be successful. These are the people who have all of the confidence of ignorance or feel like failures and want to vent. Go ahead and keep on complaining about something you really don't understand because you have only witnessed and experienced failure or have nothing better to do than to gripe about a business opportunity you know nothing about. I say, "Give me a break!" While you stay broke and in a state of quiet desperation lerking behind your computer screen, writing ridiculous uninformed articles, others are making fortunes, retiring in their 20's and living amazing lives. Enjoy the next 40 years at your job!
Thank you, Kelly, for your educated dissertation on the merits of Quixtar. I found your post informative and balanced. Gosh, I guess I really am broke and uninformed. I never would have guessed it.
Sure, Quixtar makes some folks rich. Those of us in the organization are frequently reminded by the propaganda machine. A lot of human endeavors can lead people to wealth, Kelly, that is not the issue. The truth, like it or not, is that most people joining Quixtar will never walk across the stage. Do the math, Kelly. It's a pyramid scam, and if you want to look more broadly, the system is, as well. Some folks always do well with Ponzi schemes, but the vast majority don't.
Now, you attacked those of us who disagree with the Quixtar drones: "While you stay broke and in a state of quiet desperation lerking behind your computer screen, writing ridiculous uninformed articles, others are making fortunes, retiring in their 20's and living amazing lives. Enjoy the next 40 years at your job!" Rubbish. It's nice to see that you know me so well, Kelly. Before you go around slandering people you don't know, you might at least take the time to research our claims, instead of parroting what Dex Yeager or some other diamond told you. Is rote regurgitation of what the Diamonds say really necessary? I think we've all heard the wrath of the Diamonds against those of us who defend the truth. Instead of taking talking points from the high priests of your materialist cult, it might do you some good to actually research the fact about it.
Nobody attacked you personally here, and it does nobody any good to launch blanket attacks at people exercising the right to free speech in an effort to let the truth have a voice. All you do by your hate-mongering is let the world know how much brainwashing and cult-like behavior is a part of being an IBO. Enjoy your tenure as an IBO.
I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up? I am an IBO and have read everyones oppinions, and everyone makes valid points, but the bottom line is Quixtar can make you money if you do the work. It is not get rich quick, for some people it won't make any money. It all depends on what you want and how hard you are willing to work for it. I have never been told I have to buy the books and tapes or go to the meetings, I choose to because I like being around the people, they are decent hardworking people who want something more. I'm sure not everyone has a good experience, but it's not for everyone. In every business and corporation in the world there are people who do and say less than legal and moral things, all I can do is stick to what I think is right. The one thing the article in the beginning fails to mention is that a lot of the profit from this business lies in clients and members, people who buy things from the IBO because they like the products but do not want to have their own business. Having clients and members is encouraged in order to keep your business stable. IBO's may come and go but if a client like the products they are buying and the prices then they will continue to provide the IBO with business. I agree with everyones right to have an opinion but I don't think either side should be misleading and hateful in their information which I have seen a lot of on this site.
Josh - So you're an IBO . . . guessing by your comments you'll probably be one of the folks who never walks across the stage. Quixtar doesn't make anyone rich, if that were the case all you'd have to do is sign up. You make yourself rich by WORKING. It takes lots of work and enough money to make it seem almost like it isn't worthwhile at times for those of meager income (most people in the US). It is not a worthwhile venture for those unwilling to put down the remote control and work. That's why most people don't make it - they won't put forth the massive effort it takes. The VERY FEW people who are, are the one's who walk across the stage.
W-O-R-K. That is something every endeavor has in common if you want to be successful at it. Do you really think that if you work hard, do all of the things that others have done to be successful and don't give up you won't go across that stage yourself, dear Josh? Do you really believe that anyone who stays in and actually does the WORK without giving up or copping an attitude because of his or her jealousy or judgements doesn't make it? Most people are not successful in anything - that is the truth. That is mainly because of their personal habits and unwillingness to do what it takes to be successful - like put down that remote control for instance. No, again Quixtar doesn’t make anyone wealthy - people make themselves wealthy. It is not a get rich scheme, but it does work or no one would be wealthy from it at all. I feel sorry for you and people like you, Josh because obviously at one point you must have had an inkling you'd be successful. Like I said - and yes it is a Quixtar cliche: Enjoy the next 40 years! Someone who would say something like this has no concept of what it takes to be successful in anything, let alone Quixtar: "Sure, Quixtar makes some folks rich. Those of us in the organization are frequently reminded by the propaganda machine. A lot of human endeavors can lead people to wealth, Kelly, that is not the issue. The truth, like it or not, is that most people joining Quixtar will never walk across the stage" Why do you continue to renew if you're already sure you won't become wealthy through it? Poor (in more ways than one) misguided soul.
There are some IBOs out there who misrepresent what it takes to be successful just to sign people up – Those of us who are smart tell people in a straight forward way what it really takes, so we can see if we’re dealing with people who actually want to do something profitable for themselves and us. Oops – did I just admit that I want to make money? Well it is a business, is it not?
O.K. here is what it takes: It takes work, it takes money (which you can get by selling products retail – what a concept , huh?), and it takes a never-give up attitude that most people are not willing to develop. I can tell you truthfully – when you first start out and you aren’t at a point where client and member sales leverage your purchases – you spend at least $300 a month on your business (if you really are out there WORKING) – this includes your tapes and books for personal use, books, tapes and other materials to give out, toll free phone number, personal web site, and weekly meetings. Plus if want to do all of your points yourself about $250 more in product purchases. The smart folks work on getting others to buy from them to defray the product cost. At least 5 days a week – you’re out there working – making contacts, going to meetings, conducting your own meetings to expose your business to others, etc. Often a night you may only get three or four hours sleep if you have ajob to go to the next day. Then there are quarterly conferences that cost about $100 for a ticket to the weekend’s events plus travel, hotel and food. Wow!! That’s too much to commit to! That’s what most people would say – and that my friends, is why most people don’t make it. The very few who are willing to commit to all of that until they reach their goals are the ones who walk across the stage. Plus the whole Christian thing turns a lot of people off. So I guess I just weeded out some would-be Josh’s. Successful IBO’s know there are many people out there just like them who’ll be on stage too, despite the inevitable naysayers like our friendly IBO buddy, Josh.
Hi All
The tapes I am listening to say that we are paid directly by the company and that we are not making money from each other. If this is untrue, where is the proof? ( I ask in sincerity) At this point, I am still learning and checking it out. The same tape also said that a person can exceed the income of their sponsor. I didn't quite understand, but this does not sound like a pyramid to me. (?)
Also, we just bought over $400 worth of product and paid $17.95 in shipping besides receiving a promotional discount ( which I didn't even notice until just now) of $20.93.
I don't recognize lower prices; if anything, they seem average to high, but I appreciate the chance of checking into a viable money-making opportunity for such a small investment.
And by the way, we were shown this about 4 years ago by our sponsors and remained good friends with them after having refused the opportunity. They never asked us to join after that, stating that it is not for everyone but the friendship remained.
I don't know what level they are now (we just joined and they live in Hawaii and us in CA) but they did go on a cruise last year with the Paulin's.
Just sharing my own experiences.
Best wishes to all :-)
Kathy
wow , all this is very interesting so far! Can't believe all the debating on this business here. ??? Don,t really know what to say, thought i would look at these sites that all these smart people have looked at, Looks like an Enquirer, or a Jerry Springer wanna be online show here. I have read all these post just to examine for myself,and for you that want to answer me . Too Bad i won't be back very soon anyway. I have read about people that started this business and did nothing, i have read about people defending this business to people who it shouldn't matter. Life is about choices and what we do with them, so i will keep my choices to myself , But just so all of you know i am an IBO,. But i also own another brick and mortar business to, and it sounds like to me the ones who are not doing business as quixtar ibo's . Really have no idea what the are slamming this business about, and I don't have to go out every night to do this , i choose to , and i choose to be around positive people , rather then all them thumb suckers out there that give their opinion ,whether people want it or not, and to me that is very sad, they try to save the world based on their opinion no one gives a rats butt about. I say for all of our sakes lets let them sit here and write to themselves, and they would probably argue with themselves about that even!! LOL To each their own opinion , history has recorded that some are poor some are rich, some live some die, some are sad and some happy. I chose to have fun, make money, and help people. in that order, because need money to help people!! we let people make up their own minds, as long as they understand what they saw!! Well gotta run spent to much of my valuable time on here!
I guess it would be a stupid question to ask all of you "satisfied, loving life" IBO's why you're out here attacking people with dissenting opinions. Would it be too much to assume that there is some seed of doubt, or that you feel threatened by those of us who disagree with you?
Let's set some things straight. I do not hate Quixtar. Quixtar, like any other business is just in this to turn a profit. I don't hate any other IBO's. They're in this to live the dream. I DO have a problem with Diamonds who are using this system to take advantage of people, and I DO have a problem with the lies that I was told when my sponsors showed me the plan, which were repeated by the next 2 levels above them. As any rational person should, I feel deceived, and I want to let everyone possible know about the deceptions out there.
Am I a long-term AmQuix distributor? No. Six months ago, I had no idea what this thing called Quixtar was. I'm not lazy, and I don't intend to remain with Quixtar. However, it is our duty as good citizens and persons of character to speak up against the swindlers and cheats of this world. Since "the system" people fit that description, we have an obligation reveal them for what they are.
If Quixtar and the system are working out for you, and if your conscience allows you to be involved, then more power to you. Understand, though, that your views are not universal, and that some of us out here have reasonable grievances against your organization. It is presumptuous to attack without doing your own research.
Some people are in Quixtar to follow there dreams, I disagree. I'm in quixtar to catch my dreams, difference is I follow my heart instead.
I don't think anybody should be attacking anybody every let me stress that EVERYBODY has a right to there opinion.
Now here's mine I'm a Quixtar IBO and Every meeting I have had with my upline I have had red warning lights going off. There is something weird about a business where you can't express who you are I don't know if it is the same with all quixtar uplines but I have noticed that most (not all) men of this organization refer to their wives or other woman ibo's as "girls" I disagree highly to that I'm grown with life experience for a reason and I was given a mouth for my opinion to be expressed not to let my "significant other" do it for me. I guess you can say that I have received an underlying message that us woman in "the business" with husbands are suppose to be seen but not heard unless we are addressed by our husbands and i won't stand for that.
On another note the people that are out here attacking others saying how they believe in the business and in god well what the hell are you doing putting other people down. God never taught that. He taught to "turn the other cheek" or walk away but Don't put others down. Yes you can give your opinion but if you do. Don't sit up there and act like your crap don't stink and that you are better than anyone else with a holier than art thou attitude cause that isn't right.
Now a couple more things and I will be done.
1) it takes money to make money Kelly so if you don't have a job to support your expensive habit then it's really hard to get in to get the members and clients to order from you ok.
2) I do enjoy my job I can wear whatever I feel like I don't have to go out and get an expensive wardrobe to go to meetings and I don't have to not smoke at my job i'm allowed cigarette breaks with no greif (again this might just be the chain I'm on) but we have about 200 people at our Tuesday night meetings and every single one of them dresses in a 3 piece suit. and most of them have given up smoking because it is looked down upon. I have worked to hard in my life to have some organization looked down on me for the indepedant individual i have fought so hard to become. You probably think i have a job at a fast food facility no I work for the state thank you and I have been here for 3 years and I'm living paycheck to paycheck I don't have the extra money to be forking out for weekly meetings yeah ours is only $4 a week which is $16 - $20/ month but that is 1 -2 tanks of gas to get me to work that is 5 loads of wash and 5 to dry (notice no dry cleaning) I have priorities.
3) Also My recruiting upline said this would be a job that only takes 10 - 15 hours a week um so far from what i have read you are working a regular 40 hour a week job but you have to pay for alot more than I do and we make probably about the same except I have a retirement fund set up for me. How about you? Also I defer 10% of my paycheck into my retirement fund so I'm doing very well + I have medical benefits which helps me go to the doctor. that's the security i need.
And no I don't have any student loans I didn't need a college degree to have a job.
Last but not least
4) I love my friends and even though they don't get the business understanding I will never leave one behind or forget who they are and what they have meant to me because I have a meeting or because i'm becoming to important to hangout with them that's not how you treat your real friends.
This is all I have to say
Leave noone behind and remember those who helped you when you didn't have anyone.
Can anyone tell me how are Quixtar and Amway related? I am a IBO and i join Amway 3 weeks ago. But i joined it out of haste and i did not do any research on it. Why? because i thought it was a get rich quick scheme. And my upline told me i can earn $3000/mth spending 10hrs/week. I managed to sponsor a new IBO, but when i tried to bring down the second, he did his research and showed me the cons of this business. I decided to do some research and came across this website.
Read : In the United States, the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month. No such labels are required in other countries, but the facts are clear. Most people who get involved in Amway will not make money.
I dunno if this is accruate or not because i am a Singaporean IBO. I do not expect to get rich in a few months or years. But i do hope to earn a decent income over time (Say 10 years). And when i retire i can have residue income. Unlike conventional jobs, residual income hardly exist.
I am getting disillisoned and confused. Why do people call Amway ScAmway? Will everyone who work hard in the business succeed?? I am willing to work hard, and is making the effort to go to every meeting (btw the meeting cost $3 for around 2 hours, that adds up to around $150 a year). At the end of the year if i choose to return the starter kit and get back the S$68, i know i would have wasted alot of time, and my friends who refused me would have the last laugh.
Well let me tell my experience. Lot of couples had sugessted this to me and my husband. Few times we listened to them and said NO. Then again we met another new couple. They were friends with us for couple of months and I was thinking OK I got some real friends and they used to apprecaite evrything we did and said,but after few days BOOMMMM. The quixtar bomb was dropped on us. They requested us a lot to attend the meeting so we went. And oh my god those ladies were appreciating everything. How beautiful I am, how my skin is glowing, my face is so similar looking. And our friend was continuously telling how good I have setup my house and how clean it is. I mean do they really need to do that. It looks so fake and overdone. Well the guy was not even asking us at the end about what we think on joining and he was asking for registration money check right there. What is the hurry? I said we want to think it over and after 2-3 days they called and we said no as we won't have time to attend meetings etc. Secondly we hardly spend $150 dollars a month (not including vegetables) on houshold. Again we buy tissues, detergent once in 3 months. So I guess it was not worth for us.
OK the FUNNY PART is after we said no they didn't maintain any contact with us. You won't believe they didn't even smile at us when we met at the mall. Why do these quixtar people do like this. I mean we have experienced it so many times. If the business is so genuine why do they need these tactics? Is that included in the training to make friends, and break it if not joining. What a Crap.
What can I say about QuixtaR? CULT CULT CULT CULT!!!
Keep up the good work. This is the first post I have ever made about this issue. Having been a very loyal Amyay/Quixtar IBO in the Crawford/Wilson/Yager AMO for ten years I think I know a thing or two about what is taught. Your points about A/Q in your rebuttal to Crystal are right, but I think you may have attacked her (rather than A/Q and the AMO's) a bit vigorously, hence her defensive reply.
I am embarrased that I swallowed what was taught hook line and sinker. You are taught to trust (only your upline though) to dream $$$ dreams, to pursue money in direct contradiction to 1 Tomothy 6 (those of you who say you are Christians need to meditate on this, I never did till we got out), and to think ill of every other business venture out there. What finally got me thinking was "Why would Dexter hire Dave Thomas, Wendy's founder, to come teach if he really believed any other business is stupid?" This traitorous thought led to another and I finally found I could no longer listen to the vitriol that is spewed at every other enterprise. I will admit a few crumbs of admiration of a few stellar businesses are handed out but the message as a whole is very degrading toward anything not A/Q., very different from what exists in other boardrooms.
I also want to tell you there is no way that A/Q or the AMO's teach people to obey the 10 customer rule, despite being told that it is the most ethical business around. I have read on the net that someone (a senator?) in the US is trying to get rid of the 10 customer rule for direct sales by legislation. This concerns me a great deal.
Also, a note about the IBOA. It is supposed to be an elected board, but everyone is told who to vote for probably partly because no one has a clue about any of the issues facing distributors or any of the diamonds opinions on them. Vote fixing?
Two good things we did get out of it is we started going to church where we lived, even though we disregarded the churches teaching about pursuing riches, and we were put in touch with a pastor who counselled us through a difficult part of our marriage (I thougtht my husband had issues because he refused to build the business!).
Every month or so a belief I formed while in the business comes to light and is revealed for the lie it is. This is still happening after over two years away from the AMO system.
If someone reading this still gets involved, one thing I would plead with you is don't lose contact and remain on friendly, close terms with those of your family and friends that choose not to join you.
Please remove my email address. Thanks
QUIXTAR IS FOR BRAINLESS MORONS. IT IS AMWAY
This site is amazing! I never thought there would be such a seperation of opinions. It's like there's a group of IBO's on the defense, and a group of "haters,"(As Crystal would call them) on the attack. I personally think that the whole 30-45 minutes it took to read all the posts and write a response has been one of the worst wastes of my time I can remember. The Quixtar 'drones' all seem preocupied with some Euphoric land where everyone is happy and rich and Quixtar is a part of everyone's life. The Opposition to this, though, seems to be saying (At least Tim is...) that if you join Quixtar, you're damned to Hell for all of Eternity. Well, in the midst of this, here I stand as the Midway Point.
I myself am actually an IBO in Quixtar (hold on though, if you're already thinking of skipping to another post) who has had a relatively good success rate. Just because I'm doing good doesn't mean I like the BWW system or even the people I associate with on a weekly basis. I actually try to get out of seeing my 'uplines' as much as possible due to the fact that they are all dillusioned by the religous side of Quixtar. I, myself, am actually an Atheist (damn me to hell, pray for me, or whatever later), my 'upline' though, are a bunch of brainless idiots that think that, because they believe in god, god will make them become diamond. They make me sick.
On the other hand, my 'downline' and myself are actually a very decent down-to-earth group of individuals. They have realized (as have I) that religion really has nothing to do with this business. This business, like other businesses, is about making a profit, nothing more, nothing less. The idea is to change your buying habits, and teach others to do the same, at a profit to yourself. On this front, I believe Quixtar to be a very efficient business.
If you've read through all of the above, you may think I'm crazy. But what I'm trying to say is that both sides have both good and bad points. However, I can't really agree with either. My thoughts on this can all be summed up in one statement: Quixtar is a very good business idea, but business should be kept with business. The major mistake, in my mind, that may eventually become it's downfall, is that the leaders of the business today keep trying to throw religion into all of this somehow.
Thank you for reading my ideas on this unique business model/religious cult, but due to the fact that I stumbled upon this site by chance, and that I rarely ever check my e-mail, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of me, and I'm very sorry to say, but I doubt I'll ever find my way back here to see any responses to my comment.
Kurt,
This site is amazing! I never thought there would be such a seperation of opinions.
I'm amazed, too. I just listed and commented on what I heard, and *poof* wildfire breaks out. I find it amazing that I post this wishy-washy article saying "maybe it's a reasonable business model, maybe it isn't" and people react so strongly.
The Opposition to this, though, seems to be saying (At least Tim is...) that if you join Quixtar, you're damned to Hell for all of Eternity.
Naw. I'm just saying that if "life on the bottom" -- the failures and people who get stuck at saturation -- isn't good, then, by Christian ethics, it's probably not an ethical model by my way of thinking.
Being "damned to hell", in Christianity, isn't a matter of doing everything perfectly, or never doing anything wrong. It's rather a matter of seeking forgiveness for one's sins via the death of Jesus. Sure, it's best to avoid unethical behaviors, but Christians aren't "saved" by being perfect in such a way.
Hey, but you probably knew that already, right? If so, then no problem: I'm just responding to a bit of hyperbole with a direct answer.
This business, like other businesses, is about making a profit, nothing more, nothing less...
My thoughts on this can all be summed up in one statement: Quixtar is a very good business idea, but business should be kept with business. The major mistake, in my mind, that may eventually become it's downfall, is that the leaders of the business today keep trying to throw religion into all of this somehow.
If you mean using religion as a selling point, I couldn't agree with you more.
But you also seem to be implying that there are no ethical considerations to be made other than profit. I come from a different background, and thus think ethics are an important consideration as well.
Consciously or not, our ethical considerations are always based on our assumptions about the universe. If there's no "judge" other than the law of the land, then certainly pragmatism ("I can make money doing this!") is all that counts. But I personally think we ought to consider the impact a business will have on people -- winners and losers.
Since we don't seem to share a common set of underlying assumptions, I don't see that we should have the same analysis of ethics on any particular point. I respect your view, but disagree.
Thank you for reading my ideas on this unique business model/religious cult, but due to the fact that I stumbled upon this site by chance, and that I rarely ever check my e-mail, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of me, and I'm very sorry to say, but I doubt I'll ever find my way back here to see any responses to my comment.
And likewise, thanks for your interesting contribution!
And, speaking of ethics, I have an apology to make...
Crystal,
First, I want to apologize for saying, categorically, that you were acting in a deceitful manner. In truth, I don't know anything more about you than I can read on your postings, and I should not have assumed that you, for certain, knew more about Quixtar than you were letting on.
I found it improbable that someone would (a) know all the same arguments my potential uplines were using, without actually being in Quixtar, and (b) that someone would see many former participants alleging a business was unethical and get so excited, based on that opposition, that she just had to run out and sign up right away.
But there's a difference between improbable and impossible, and I assumed the latter when only the former was warranted.
You have my apology: Perhaps you never were an IBO. Perhaps you were motivated to sign up by seeing former participants say it was a scam. With no other evidence, I should have taken you at your word.
Also: Yes, I did miss that you were saying you went to non-Quixtar people to get advice. The argument sounded a bit too close to what I'd heard from Quixtar -- ("Only get advice from successful people -- from us!") and rounded off a bit. Again, mea culpa.
I can't speak for every experience and every business owner...but I will not deceive or misrepresent in any of my business dealings.
That would be great! Good for you!
So will you tell potential recruits, that by Quixtar's own statistics, they're twenty or more times more likely to become a millionaire outside Quixtar than in it?* Will you tell them, up front, that expenses in order to be "core" run about $3,000 per year? Will you mention to them that you have good indications that it really takes a lot more than 8-10 hours per week? Will you ask them to do the same for everyone they sign up to be an IBO?
Or will you just give half the picture, similar to what I got?
Sincerely,
- Tim
[* My upline told me "only Microsoft has more millionaires". MS had about 3,000, Quixtar has 2 million IBOs, meaning we're looking at about 0.15% or less as millionaires. The general population has more than 3% millionaires.]
First of all I think your having a response mechanism---on you critical commentary is admirable. I think you may be the only one. I do not agree with your assessment of Quixtar...there is a lot of money(hey that's what business is all about)to be made in this businesss. These people are not perfect---it appears to me that the stock market has the same problem---the oil companies--the Catholic church--etc. But I feel this is an excellent business idea--and I am going to do it!!And I feel anyone who needs everyone elses approval for their business ideas--is stupid!!
I've loved reading this post. Many good information here, even though there were some shots at one another. I want to mention one thing that I have learned with my quixtar experience, and that is that there is unlimited money to be made through retailing of products. If you can utilize B2B (business to business for you newbies), and find reliable corporations to use the janitorial supplies, there is good money to be made there. Any time you can put yourself as the "middle man" or the "store", even if you dont have to convince others to do the same....:)....there is money to be made.
SECONDLY, remember, the easiest way to become rich in life is to be content with what you have. There is no better feeling in life than to be content and thankful for what God has given us all.
Good luck to everyone.
Hi Tim
Comparing the pecentage of millionaires in one company to the general population is oranges and apples. Wal-Mart has 1.5 million employees. I wonder what their percentage is. Investment firm down the hall has 4 employee/owners and all four are millionaires - 100%.
Pharoah,
You make an interesting and thoughtful observation.
When I go to work for Wal-Mart, they generally tell me in advance what I'd expect to make. If I accept the offer, I have approximately a 100% chance of making exactly what I was promised.
(And I won't be tempted to work for even less because they imply I just might get the same kind of income Sam Walton's heirs have if I hang around long enough and stock my shelves really, really well on donated overtime. We all know that's incredibly unlikely, and nobody pretends otherwise.)
In contrast, Quixtar and related companies don't tell you what your expected return on investment is likely to be. (Even as a statistical average, as the lottery does -- even though they have such information.)
Instead, the idea of the "Quixtar millionaire" or other less serious forms of financial independence are frequently dangled in front of one. In light of that, I think it's reasonable to compare the probability of that occuring to the background average. After all, a person choosing to get involved in Quixtar is choosing it from among all those other possible areas in which they are qualified to channel their energies -- including dozens of other franchising opportunities -- many of which do provide a good likely return on investment -- and further education such as in chiropractic, law, real estate, software, or plumbing. (And remember, there are a lot of very rich people with no education beyond high school. Even landscaping and construction can make one wealthy, if done well.)
If I was qualified and invited to join two companies, and I was told the playing field was "even" within each of them (all who join have the same opportunities), then why wouldn't you join the one which produced a higher average return? For example, if you were told you could qualify, equally, for the investment company up the hall (100% millionaires) and Wal-Mart (very low expected average wages), why wouldn't you join the investment company?
On the other hand, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you're right -- that it's not reasonable to compare the likelihood of making a certain wage at different companies. Okay, great. Then the fault lies with the Quixtar sales pitch which bragged frequently (in my experience) "Only MS has produced more millionaires!" I'm only responding to it.
But in the end, I disagree, and feel that it's completely reasonable to consider your chances of making large wages, especially when: (a) you're choosing from among other opportunities, (b) the playing field is even within a company, (c) and the chances of major success are extremely low, and especially when (d) the sales pitch strongly implies otherwise.
Well hello everybody! First off, I just want to say this is one of the more interesting sites for the Quixtar debate I have ever seen. I am an IBO, I am not really rich yet...I am at 2500PV, but I know that it works and I know that I am getting paid what I was told I would. The fact of the matter is, you Anti-Quixtar people are right on one thing for sure...some things in the Quixtar plan can be misleading if not explained properly. I recognized this a long time ago. For example, the wholesale savings...they are the savings from the Quixtar retail to wholesale, not from Kmart's price, or Kohls'. We don't compete with them, they are a different style of marketing. I inform the new people of that every time. When you tell people the truth straight up, you never have to apologize for anything, nor explain anything. Take this to heart, from someone who is middle of the road as far as success (but moving forward)...this definitly works. I have cashed the checks, I have seen people get in long after me and already be retired. I kick myself for taking so long to get started. It will work if you take it as serious as a job. However, you must maintain a high level of integrity at all times. If you so much as think of ripping someone off, you can make some quick enemies...hence some of these earlier posts!
I wish you all luck in future endeavors.
Josh and Tim, you are truly wise dudes, and I commend you for not falling for the lies of the Scamway/Quixtar slaves. It is clear to me that scarlet and crystal are the bitter ones here. At least you use ration and logic. Yes, this is a free country and the First Amendment is still effective, so you have every right to speak the truth about Scamway. More people need to know about this dishonest pyramid scheme. I am glad that I am not part of it, and I am perfectly happy where I am now in life. Greed doesn't cut it for me. I will spread the word and I encourage you to e-mail the piece at the top to me and as many people as you can. I will post it too, since people have the right to know the truth behind such a shady and crooked "business". Thanks, Tim and Josh. Keep up the good work!
I went to a Quixtar meeting and was amazed at how everyone there went out of their way to show how "successful" they were but nobody would give me any real, tangible detail. They actually made it a point to say that it's wrong to ask somebody about their personal finances around "the business". I can gree with staying out of people's financial detail in general - it really is none of my business. But if you're trying to sell me on a business plan and you claim you're "successful" at it - wouldn't you want to show me your tax returns for the year so I could see for myself? That to me is the ultimate proof that it can work. Example: "I've been in this business for 2 years and look! I'm making $xxx!!" If I was the one making $250k (or whatever) a year on a business plan and was trying to recruit additional members, what better way than by showing them how it's working for me with my own real data!? The opposition to doing something like this only shows me that everyone there just puts on a nice suit and talks about how "successful" they are rather than actually attempting to prove it to me. I thought it was funny that I was the only one not in a suit (even out of the new recruits) but I was the one asking real questions instead of just taking what they were feeding.
Another thing I noticed in the meeting is that the speaker spent 95% of the meeting giving us the benefits of owning your own business (tax write-offs, etc) and then at the end did a real quick overview of what "the business" actually entails. Just seemed really shady to me.
Tripp,
You've made some interesting comments...
I went to a Quixtar meeting and was amazed at how everyone there went out of their way to show how "successful" they were but nobody would give me any real, tangible detail.
I had a similar experience: Some in my circle of friends said, of the IBO above, stuff like "I hear they're making a lot of money at it." Certainly sounds like they'd wanted to give that impression.
But, in real life, I noticed her husband was still working his full-time job, she was still driving a beat-up car, and I wasn't so sure all those "diamonds" weren't really cubic zirconia. (A BMW is a little harder to fake, isn't it?)
And this is a person with 200 IBOs "under" her!
But if you're trying to sell me on a business plan and you claim you're "successful" at it - wouldn't you want to show me your tax returns for the year so I could see for myself?
Amen. This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said:
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
I keep hearing how wonderful and ethical Quixtar is, but full disclosure is strangely absent.
Sometimes, someone will show you a check they've received. Or will tell you that someone else will soon be receiving a check for a certain amount of money. They'll tell you the number, in detail and all.
Ask about their expenses, and how much of that check really goes to their downlines, and suddenly they seem a lot less interested in the details.
I thought it was funny that I was the only one not in a suit (even out of the new recruits)...
Generally, participants are told to "dress up" for the meeting. (I was.) I believe the idea is to give an impression that one is "in business" to those who are unaccustomed to actually being so; to give an impression of having the "trappings" of a business without some of the core fundamentals (such as an external customer or financial accountability).
I am a new ibo in this business and have several concerns about it.
1. When we were shown the plan we were told that all we had to do was 100pts a month, our upline failed to mention that we had to have 50 client/member points also to recieve any payment for our points.
2. We were told in the plan that anyone in our downline that did thier points would get payment from quixstar, we just found out this information was incorrect, the payment comes from our virtual office, money that we earned.
2. We were also told that once we reached Q12 qualification (7500 pts) that our bonuses would exceed $18,000 this does not apply unless you have a side volume of 3000 pts. (we also just found that out). Which was not explained to us or any of our downline when we were showed the plan.
3. We were asked to attend a weekend spring leadership seminar in Kentucky and were told we "needed" to attend it. When we declined as my wife works full time and we have 4 children who would need child care not to mention the fact that the seminar cost is $110.00 our upline started acting very strange. I called then to tell them I had several people scheduled to show the plan to the week after the meeting and was told by our upline that they would not be available as they wanted to be there for other Ibo's that had actually attended the leadership meeting. They also stated that the ibo's who attend the meeting had shown the initiative and sacrifice to grow in the business and that if i did not attend the meeting my business would fail withing 4 months. We have been doing this for only a little over a month and have already signed up 5 ibos and one client. We also have 5 more follow-ups with people who are very exited about signing up. If that isnt initiative and sacrifice I dont know what is.
4. After listening to motivational/informational cds (mostly motivational) it almost sounds like a new religion created by the diamonds.
In closing if anyone could please clarify any of our concerns or correct any of the information I have placed here I would appreciate it. It just seems that everytime something new happens or we reach a goal another hurdle pops up and we have to overcome it. The information comes to us as we question the new hurdle and that is with much probing on our part. Our upline keeps saying things like "go on faith" "you dont need to know that yet" We are strongly considering leaving this organization. Most people who want to start a business would expect all of the information before the venture and the way this plan is presented it is like walking through a maze with a blindfold on.
From someone who doesn't know much about the "system", it sounds to me like your upline makes money/points/whatever if you attend the seminar. Why else would your upline be more supportive of someone who attended a "leadership" seminar than someone who didn't?
Secondly, if you read this whole thread and countless other threads out there you'll realize that there are many more naysayers with much more convincing arguments than there are supporters. And the supporters that are out there can't even explain how it all works in the grand scheme of things and usually end up resorting to personal insults. I'm sorry but I could never just "go on faith". That's a fools bet 99% of the time. Maybe it works for the other 1% but I'd rather stick with my day job than take a gamble like that. :)
I may not be the smartest man in the world but none of it adds up if you apply any logical reasoning. If your gut tells you that you're better off leaving - go with your gut. Most people will tell you from real, actual experience that your gut is going to be right most of the time.
Just my $.02. Tripp out!
Hello,
I have recently been showed "the plan" by someone who became my "friend." After hanging out for two days he invited my girlfriend and I to his house for dinner and a business opportunity. He seemed like a really nice guy and I was interested in making money. He told me that I could buy the same things at Quixtar.com and make money by telling others to do the same. He was also a part of Network 21, a business education program. He used N21 to go around the Amway/Quixtar name and never told me the costs of joining. It turns out that N21 costs $250 to start. I would get books and cds and get to go to educational seminars. There are also 4 weekend long seminars that I would probably have to fly to and stay in hotels. This was going to cost thousands of dollars every year. THANK YOU ALL FOR POSTING YOUR STORIES ON THIS SITE! After researching for hours about Quixtar I have decided not to join my upline, but I am going to become an IBO. I do not like the deception or their cult-like behaviors. I'm sure that some people like that type of environment, but its not for me. I am going to operate MY business the way I want to. I have learned that groups like Network 21 are called AMO's, Amway Motivational Organizations. They usually make more money from the sale of their "tools", the tapes and books, than from selling Amway/Quixtar products. I really don't think my upline even knows how Quixtar calculates their checks. I don't rely on any information that I received from them. Instead I went to the source, Quixtar.com. In visitor view you can check out the business reference guide. I have done the calculations for the monthly performance bonus and realized that you can make money. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO 100 POINTS/MONTH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ORDER EVERY MONTH. Buy what you need and nothing else. I am very interested in trying the toothpaste, laundry and dish detergent, and many more items that I NEED. I have done price checks and found they are competetive, but not for all the products. So don't buy the more expensive ones. If I don't like them I can ship them back for free within 180 days. Your order comes with a prepaid return label. Oh, by the way, you can sign up for Quixtar for only $40/year. As for shipping, a small investment in my eyes. Just stay away from AMO's. Unfortunately, every IBO you meet has been sucked into their "proven system" and they are losing thousands. Doing it MY way there is very little risk. The hardest part of this job will be teaching people the difference between Amway/Quixtar and the groups that are using this great system in a very bad way. Remember you control your success not your upline. Always be honest about the business and educate yourself. Never rely on information from others. I don't expect you to trust what I have said. I know I wouldn't. Go directly to the source for all your information.
Well, Ben, that's your choice. In avoiding the AMO, you've made a wise choice. I wouldn't recommend joining to begin with, but joining Quixtar without joining your upline's AMO is the smartest way to avoid getting burned. Good luck with your "Independent Business."
PS. On another note, you do have to generate at least 100 points a month to receive a check.
Hey Josh,
Thanks for your response and the heads ups on pv. I'm sure that the 100 pv/month I need is not just from my own purchases. It is the combined pv of everyone I sponsor. If this is not correct, please let me know. Thanks Again, Ben
IBO - I signed up, I just did it! Then I realized it was nothing more than a satanic cult. A big scam. (I have a better chance at hitting the lottery, but it is a good concept.) Why are they mixing God with business? Why do they want me to quit my job and get people signed up? Why do they want me to forget about family members who wont sell out? Suffer and you will be rich. Compare that to Jesus? ..And he required all people to receive a mark on their right hand or forehead, they cannot buy or sell without the mark, the mark was the mark of the beast, 666. Six People, Six People, Six People. The beast has seven heads, the revelation quotes it often... The seven heads are those of the seven major religions, research it yourself...please! Christianity, being the worst of these religions, (anti-christ = Paul)killing millions in its name. Seek and you will find. God and Jesus wants us to use our brains for ourselves. This business is only the beginning. Christianity will try to sneek in every part of our lives. Remember, All you need is God and the belief of his son Jesus. Follow his example and know that he came here to show us how to live life and be with God for eternity, not for the attonement of the cross (Sins will be judged). Treat people the way he did and seek the truth.
Quixtar and BWW is a joke, although sucessful. Stay away, don't be brainwashed.
Well, that was certainly the strangest anti-Quixtar post I've ever seen!
Keith, uh, did you notice that you just posted to article number 3-3-3? That's exactly half of the 6-6-6 required by Quixtar! We're all in this together! Muhahahaha!!! :-)
Yes, of course, Jesus came only as a great teacher. And the evidence you have for this is .... ?
Great. Impressive presentation. Thanks much! Me, I tend to get sidetracked a bit by all the points where he said his main purpose was die for our sins. And those prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel and the Psalms, written hundreds of years before, which said the same.
Or did the "satanic" Paul somehow write all those too and inject them into the Jewish canon?
I love it this kind of reasoning: We can know nothing about the 'historical' Jesus: Paul changed the whole thing! Really? How do you know that? Oh, because I know all about the historical Jesus!
Errr... yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
Back to nattering about Quixtar...
Please, can you rewrite those verses. The prophets said a man will come, showing us how to live our lives. And to forgive to show us the light, not to die for sins so we can keep sinning.
This is all too interesting, I just hope anyone who does sign up for Quixtar does the business fairly (by letting indivuals know the truth upfront- costs, time and work involved), and those in the business long enough- that you run it with integrity.
Its unfortunate so many people have been mislead and lied to. Frankly it upsets me, but greed does that. However no one can deny that there is money to be made using the combination of BWW and Quixtar, and depending on your dreams, people can be helped. Its imperitive for EACH individual to make up their own mind and see if its a busness that will work for you.
If you decide to, then remember all those friends and family members who were their for you. Not because someone diagrees with you means you throw them out of you life. And remember to build relationships based on TRUST.
For those of you who decided against it, then may you still find a way to have those dreams come true, because we all have one!!!
Have a good day.
Tim,
You're a funny guy and you should start taking some of your own advice. You're atually perfect for Quixtar.
John Z and Tripp-
Just so you know, your direct upline doesn't make anything off of your attendance at functions. The theory behind getting your downline to go is that nobody is going to drag you along, kicking and screaming to gain your own success. So the people who go are showing commitment and they should be first in line to get help. John, i'm sorry that sounds odd that they are too busy for you even though you are trying.
Technically, you don't NEED any client PV, but it's a good idea because you really aren't too much of a business if you don't have customers. (I think it's okay if you don't have many if you are at least trying, look how many traditional businesses don't have enough customers...)
As far a the Q12 bonuses, I don't know what you mean by side volume, I personally know two Q12 couples and trust me, the bonuses are real money and the resorts they get free trips to are awesome.
Ben- I don't know your line of sponsorship but you might want to be careful with totally throwing out your upline's place in your business. Unfortunately there are some systems where they will actually retract your IBO# if you go against them too much. This has nothing to do with Quixtar itself, it is the structure that you find yourself in. Assuming you are a wise as you make yourself out to be, I hope you find all the success you earn.
I'm not sure who said it- but the virtual office is Quixtar... so when your virtual office pays you, it is Quixtar paying you.
Original guy-
To be honest I spend way too much time shopping online and my favorite products are (if you want to try neat ones):
the anti-frizz hair serum
the dishwasher dish drops (the tablets)
nutrilite fish oils
SA8 detergent booster (I have a kid)
XS energy drink
there is an icook cookware set where you can stack your pans and they cook evenly
gift + incentive albums
carb blockers and CLA (nutrilite- these helped me lose 40 lbs after I had my daughter)
Those aren't all, but I would be a client just to get them if I wasn't an IBO
I was approached by a QUIXSTAR rep twice in the last 10 years. I signed up with the first rep but with a lack of direction and no guidance from my upline, I gave up on it! I agreed to meet another rep, even though I knew what the pitch would be, just to prove to myself that they are all the same!
The thing that bothers me is that the rep's are like robots. The ask the same questions and pretend to your friend. They think that by meeting their upline "PLATINUM" sponser, that your dreams will come true.
The lines used by these reps are always the same:
- "Wouldn't it be nice to have an extra $2000 in your hands every month"
- "What would you do with that extra money and how would it change your life?"
- "Please come to this meeting and meet the successful people and you eyes will be opened."
- "No investment required. The investment portion has already been taken care of and all we are looking for a "few" good people."
Ok, so as you can tell I do not think that Quixstar was a solution to my issue with having a secondary source of income. However, I am sure it will work for some people and it is working for people now....just not me!
Bottom line. Quixstar is a SCAM! People at the bottom of the chain work their b*tt off to get people at the top their retirement income.
It sucks how the Quixstar reps are feeding on people that are just looking to improve their life a bit with a little extra money.
Converation #1 - ask for your number and tell you that they have a oppurtunity in e-bussiness for you!
Converation #2 - talk to you about meeting somewhere to discuss details
Converation #3 - Meet with you and draw diagrams on paper telling you how they can show you to make $2600 in 4 months. Then you are invited to a busines conference to meet the success stories.
Converation #4 - At business conference you get sucked in and you are out $250!
If everyone in quixtar is as crazy as the girl I work with then no wonder they all belive the cult nonsense! she rambles on about "the business" and quixtar products and sounds like a recording! She spends 100's of dollars a month on meetings, products, and "motivational" crap but yet when they send her a check for 1.75 a month she is thrilled. she quotes these idoits on the tapes like they are gods! The people on the tape and in the meetings tell them to do crazy things and these people listen!! all they are doing is making the people at the top richer and themselve poorer but no they don't see that they spout there dreams of peter island and going diamond yet it's so far away their level should be classified as pebble!! I've spoke to ex-friends of the girl i work with and they tell stories of how the friendship was ruined do to her IBO nonsense!! what kind of drugs are they putting in those products or in the water at "the Fuction" that these people are hanging around and quitting jobs that pay to stay in a business that makes them NOTHING!! I think someone should examine the background on some of those cds for brainwashing! and whats up with all the cult lingo "upline", "downline", "crossline" and one quote of hers i love is "never spread negative down or cross line" WHAT THE HELL!!! obviously they all have problems so if you are ever asked "are you looking for ways to make extra money" RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! not only will they not take no for an answer they harrass you and then when they finally give up be the meanest people ever and talk about how that person is going to live in shit!! but this is supposed to be a holy group that god as personally made!! god only loves quixtar members and the only way god wants you to be rich is in quixtar...ok can anyone say waco texas, I'd hate to be at the big purple kool-aid drinking fest these people are going to have when the fbi finally bust their asses! so everyone be smart and cult free and avoid quixtar and it's members as much as possible or you'll enter the crazy stalker, cult, product, ibo pushing hell my co-workers and I encounter daily!!
Zoe,
AMEN.
I would challenge anyone here that supports Quixtar to please provide us some detail on your own financial situation to prove that it works. Because I guarantee that most of the supporters here are at the bottom of the chain and need people like us to believe so they have potential clients to "preach the gospel" to. :)
to all, pro or con about quixtar, i studied last 6 month about this buisness. my uncle in this buisness and he is very succesful in 4 months. i am a mba, so i know how every buisness work, to people who has a negative point of view, i would tell them one thing before you say something or reach verdict for something know the system first, study first know the depth then bad mouth, every system is not for every one if quixtar is not good for u then do something but let other people do it, for quixtar IBO's just do what u want to do it's your life your choice, dont listen anyone go for your dream if u willing to u will. people gain information before u say it's suck i am still studying about quixtar when i will think it's benifit for me i will join, untill then get more information how it's work. everyone always remember one thing everyone not meant to do everything, and friends helps friends to build there dream, not to tell them negative, that's what a good friends, dont think if u ask your friend to join the quixtar friendship is over,best friends and true friends always with be you no matter what. folks dont tell anyone negative if u dont know, as about quixtar as far i know now is working and it legal, if u wants to u can make money, no gimme just work heard.
rd,
my uncle in this buisness and he is very succesful in 4 months.
Ask him to show you how much money he's really making, and then ask him about his expenses.
i am a mba, so i know how every buisness work,
Goodness! If you've truly earned an MBA degree, and typically write as poorly as you did in this post, then I fear for the state of whatever institution granted it to you!
And no, no MBA knows how "every business works". A good business manager understands there are things unique to each industry which they don't, and can't teach you in 2-4 year program.
to people who has a negative point of view, i would tell them one thing before you say something or reach verdict for something know the system first,
There's no such thing as "a negative point of view". People who think there are problems with Quixtar aren't "being negative" -- they're simply saying that they think most other opportunities appear to be better than Quixar.
If your whole world revolves around Quixtar, then you might think they're negative, but they're really just favoring other options more. Actually, in my experience, it's often Quixtar advocates who have a negative view towards every other type of work.
Further, you seem to assume all opposition to Quixtar must be based in ignorance. But how can you know that? Perhaps others have learned something and are trying to share it?
every system is not for every one if quixtar is not good for u then do something but let other people do it, for quixtar IBO's just do what u want to do it's your life your choice,
This is one of my favorite arguments.
On the surface, it sounds like the author approves of people chosing to do whatever they wish -- all things are good! But really, it actually means the author does not want people to do certain things -- such as criticise the "system" he is pushing!
In my view, people should be free to criticize anything they want. That's the beauty of the first ammendment. And, specifically, it's helpful to society if people criticise things they feel are are bad, misleading, deceptive, or otherward harmful.
By the logic used here, nobody should ever tell someone else not to use drugs. "Hey, heroin is your choice!" No-one should ever criticise companies which pollute, or treat their workers badly. "It's just not for you!"
You're free to think that way, but then what business have you got telling other people what they can and can't say?
dont listen anyone
I think this comments speaks for itself.
people gain information before u say it's suck
I have a different suggestion: How about you try to answer their specific objections, rather than just telling them they shouldn't voice them?
everyone always remember one thing everyone not meant to do everything
I would think that would be an argument against a system which constantly claims "anyone can do it".
and friends helps friends to build there dream, not to tell them negative
You have an odd definition of friendship.
In my world, friends try to help friends do what's beneficial for them, even if it includes warning them against possible harm.
Yet another allegedly non-Quixtar person who echos all the Quixtar lines. Amazing how positive all these people who "don't yet know about it" are towards it!
The other option is that they're being deceptive.
You decide.
quixtar as far i know now is working and it legal
Is it "working"? Depends how you define that. Certainly, financially, it "works" for those at the top. For others, on average, I have many strong reasons to think otherwise.
And yes, it's legal in the US. (Though it's been outlawed in many other places.) But what does have to do with anything?
Poking your eye out with a sharp stick is legal! Does that mean everyone should do it? Or that nobody should speak out against it?
if u wants to u can make money, no gimme just work heard.
If you really want to sell Quixtar so badly, then you should, honestly, take a bit of effort in order to form sentences which other people will be likely to understand. I have no doubt you will find this beneficial in other areas too.
Such as in the fine management position you have earned with your MBA and knowledge of all businesses.
To those considering Quixtar: Is this how you want to end up? Are these the kind of arguments you want to see yourself spouting to each new person you meet? Think about it seriously!
i do not disagree with u, in certain aspects. my english sorry sometime in rush i could be bad. i am not saying the system is good or bad, i am saying only find out the real truth. is it u who failed? or the system, if u work for a company and you dont do your job, it's you failed or company, in this society evey system have same structure.if some one try to do something u should express your concern but dont discourge the person. as friends a real friend should tell his/her friend what to do if he/she insist then should help them, as your example drugs that's differnt then quixtar, drugs killed people quixtar don't. my words might favor quixtar because i learn who to use quixtar smart way, people who smart and hard worker they always have a way figure things out. for a new person or anybody not only quixtar other prospects u have to be have dream to succesed, if u dont life is nothing dont sell quixtar, tell them choice is yours, i saw my uncle and i saw his way to make money, he is already have lots money still he is working hard for this. i really do respect your poin of view but study quixtar go and check it out then find out.
rd,
is it u who failed? or the system
I'm not sure you're paying attention to what's going on on this thread. Try reading what people have written before responding. I didn't notice anyone, above, saying it "failed" them.
My own end analysis is that the system (i.e. "the plan") is unethical. As posted here and here.
if some one try to do something u should express your concern but dont discourge the person
You can't have it both ways. Either people are free to point out perceived problems, or not. Whether some reader feels "discouragement" upon reading such a discussion is up to them.
If a car had reliability problems, should we not post warnings about it because it would "discourage" a person who was going to buy it?
"Oh hey, that can rip your arm off! But don't let these words of mine discourage you from doing that!"
Right.
as your example drugs that's differnt then quixtar, drugs killed people quixtar don't
Yes, drugs are different from Quixtar. But not in the way you describe. People who speak against drugs do so because they believe drugs are harmful, not because they always kill people. Pot? Point to someone who's died of a "pot overdose". You see my point.
You seem to think people should only be allowed to speak against things which could kill people. Me, I'm concerned about things like Quixtar which seem to make so many of it's advocates so afraid of free debate.
If Quixtar is really so wonderful, it's advocates can post their information, and people can read both sides and make up their minds.
You seem somehow afraid of that process.
my words might favor quixtar because i learn who to use quixtar smart way, people who smart and hard worker they always have a way figure things out
Yes, and many people who are smart, hard workers have figured out they should avoid Quixtar. And some of them say so, freely.
You have a problem with that?
for a new person or anybody not only quixtar other prospects u have to be have dream to succesed, if u dont life is nothing dont sell quixtar, tell them choice is yours, i saw my uncle and i saw his way to make money, he is already have lots money still he is...
Okay, okay, that's enough. That's quite annoying.
Please, please try to write legibly. If it helps, say your words out loud before writing them, and write them all down. Break words into sentences, using periods and capital letters. It will help your readers. Try reading what you've written before hitting "POST."
Don't make your reader work harder to decrypt or words than you did to write them: Treat them as you'd like to be treated. Would you like to read clear text? Great. They would too.
Pretend you are writing one of those many papers you did to earn that MBA you said you have. Show some respect for your audience.
Online, your words are your "clothes". Using such poor writing means you're coming across wearing shabby clothes -- you make yourself look ignorant. So show some respect for yourself as well! You're worth it, trust me.
Now, I got at least "life is nothing without dreams" out of that. No: some people have a purpose or a mission rather than just "dreams." Are you looking down on such people?
A "dream" is something out there. A purpose is something I'm doing right now.
A "dream" is all about me. A "purpose" is all about making things better for everyone.
A "dream", by definition, is something I don't and can't have yet. A "purpose" is something I can.
When a guy tells me he has "dreams", he's telling me he's unfulfilled. When a woman tells me she has a purpose in life, I know I'm talking to someone who knows where they're going, regardless of what lies ahead.
A person who fails to acheive their "dream" will die unfilled. A person who live a life driven by a purpose can go to their grave satisified, no matter what happened.
Dreams are for those who are asleep.
A purpose is for people who are awake.
Find the purpose for your life! Why did your creator put you here?
It's probably not all about "having dreams"!
hey tim tell me one thing why quixtar working for other not for u, is it the system or u? listen tim i might not a good writer, but i can see how system work, every corporation has duplication, and work same as quixtar, so why not try quixtar, ignornce make u stronger, positive and get the job done, if u have a dream and also perpose as u say, u should fullfill. what is your kids fature unless u r rich, can u effort them to send good colleges. no i dont think so, but i quixtar people did try to listen there life before and after quixtar, think about your goals, achivment and decide what u doing. i am not insisting u to join quixtar that's your choice but do something then a dead-end job, make a residul income that can helps your next genaration.
rc,
One last try: Nobody here is saying Quixar can't make some people some money. (True, it's only $88 a month on average, but hey, maybe Quixtar IBOs will send their kids to college on that -- in a third-world country, maybe? ;-))
No, the objection is that Quixtar is unethical. (If you'd have read the article people are discussing here, or any of the links I'd posted for you, you'd know that. You apparently have a deep disinterest in what other people have to say to you.)
Quixtar is unethical because in the few cases where IBO succeed, they do it by creating many, many more "loser IBOs".
Given what I've seen of you, I strongly suspect you're in the latter category.
Tim,
I love reading what you write. I agree with you about Quixtar, but you are very cynical. I have trouble believing that you could ever see both sides of an argument.
Keith,
First, I want to apologize if I come off as "cynical". I do a lot of thinking on both sides of an issue before coming to a tentative conclusion, but that happens elsewhere, long before I post anything here.
What you'll see here is a vigorous presentation of the "other side", the information that you won't get in a Quixtar sales pitch. I figure people already know the pro-Quixtar side of it, so I just try to put up stuff I wish someone had told me during those many weeks of research I was doing, trying to decide. So of course it will appear unbalanced, given that. If I were explaining it to people who'd never heard anything either way, I'd try much harder to present both sides.
There are quite a number of subjects where I've done a complete about-face when better data has been presented. They're usually the ones I'm most passionate about now. (The same seems to be true for Josh.)
If someone were to present some idea, data, or new information I'd not considered about Quixtar, you'd probably see a very different response.
... I'm waiting ...
Also, I have considerably less patience for people who strike me as likely deceivers. Such as our friend with the MBA, who knows every kind of business, and who's only just heard of Quixtar, and yet is very skilled with the lines. Oh, and who writes exactly like the earlier post ("quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.", in triplicate) from BWW.
This is probably not optimal, but I'm working on it.
Am I a cynic if I suspect deception or bad motivations are possible from some? I'll plead guilty. But hey, I believe most people are fallen and sinful, and have compromised motives. Myself, sadly too often, included. (Admitting you have a problem is the first step to solving it...)
Now, concerning you personally, I feel I owe you an apology. I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings with the muhahaha-bit above; I'm sorry if I did. I wrote that a bit too late at night, but that's more of an excuse than a justification.
The point I was trying to make was that we shouldn't be quick to take superficial groupings of three sixes and use that to argue something is especially connected to the antichrist. I don't think that's a very helpful line of argument. The evidence being I can do it even with this post.
Last, it took me a while to figure out what you meant by "Please, can you rewrite those verses." I now understand you to may have meant this as a request to show you what verses I meant.
If so, then look at Isaiah 53. Also consider the whole point of the previous system of sacrifice through which God clearly taught the Jews the idea that one could be forgiven of one's sins through the death of another, an unblemished sacrifice. That's not some spurious co-incidence; that's what that whole system was meant to teach. And that's why God shut it down less than a generation afterwards.
There's more, but that should be enough for starters. If you wish to discuss this further, feel free to e-mail me, since I don't want to wander that far off topic on this thread. (I'd have e-mailed you on this point you if you'd left your address.)
Thanks for your contributions.
tim is a cynical person. he is a underachiver, also a quitter, tim buddy, forget about quixtar do something that has residul income, may be something for your family or kids and wife. dont say what bad find out are u capable to accepts challenges, i think u dont. stop talking about old days, reality is if u dont have money, means a lot, u dont have anything, it's fact. grow up look at the world, people like u no one remember.
Tim
Wow, Thanks. I apologize too, because I was out of line. I was just pissed at the absurdity of Quixtar. I just believe that the Bible clearly warns us to stay away from organizations like Quixtar. They actually had me brainwashed for a couple of hours, promosing me a materialistic heaven. Telling me this is what God wants me to do. Tim, I don't even know what God wants me to do, How can they? (I still have the tapes to prove that they promote this thinking.) And, I really do love what you write, because someone needs to write what you are writing. I totally agree. And, rd needs to wake up(in a non-judgmental way). He is way to angry.
I love talking about the flaws of Chritianity, and I have so much to say. I'm not trying to sway anybody, because it's all up to the individual to seek the truth. I just need more time to explain myself. And, you are right, this is a Quixtar sight, not Christianity. I love Jesus with all my heart. I am not Christian.
Again, I apologize for calling you cynical. I never meant for that to be taken in a judgmental way.
Tim,
Here is an interesting site. http://www.revelations-unsealed.com/revel/rev1.htm
Don't comment until you read the whole thing (may take weeks) and do the research for yourself. I have a lot of problems with this sight, especially the anger and some hokieness. But you like both sides of an argument, and this is certainly the other side. Please read, because most people won't. Again, I'm not trying to sway, just present. But, like you, I research both sides. Faith is trust, but Faith should involve some research.
Tim,
One more thing and I'll stop. I do admit I am a sinner and that I know nothing. I can only hope God gives me wisdom. Like the wisdom he gave me about Quixtar. GET OUT - DONT DO IT!!!
Keith,
First, no problem, forgiven in advance.
Second, again, the side discussion will work a lot better via e-mail. I promise I won't sign you up for anything. Otherwise you're basicly forcing me to post all my comments on this important but unrelated topic here, which distracts from the topic at hand, be it Quixtar or my alleged personal inadequacies. :-)
rd,
I hold no ill will against you, but I hope you stop doing what you're doing. If there's a judgement for things we do here, you probably won't want to go into it with that kind of thing outstanding.
Ok RD if you are the Mba you say you are I then perhaps you should ask your university for some of the money you spent on your english/grammer classes cause they obviously passed a moron! I've been doing research on quixtar for a few weeks now and I never see any hard evidence that it works for anyone other then the cult "diamonds" leaders at the top, ever now and again to keep the monkeys "ibo's" hooked they push some other conartist to the top or ship them to peter island or something. Think about this rationally pro quixtar ppl do you really think that something that only cost you 180 bucks to join and by buying stuff for youself and spreading the word to other people can really make you all millionaries?! no it can't happen if it was that easy to make a million we wouldn't have so many people in debt in this world, the truth of the matter is the average of 88 bucks a month that you make a is really only paying about a 4th of what you spend a month...and how come you quixtar people NEVER EVER SAY WHAT YOU REALLY MAKE..CAN I PLEASE SEE A CHECK OR SOMETHING!! the other day the ibo i work with came into work after one of her cult meetings and was spouting the word awsome more times then i can handle, preaching that her destiny was in this little cardboard box she was carrying so when i asked what was inside she wouldn't comment so when i snuck a peek i found nothing..the box was empty!!??? what the hell!!! these people have lost it!!! next christmas when you ibo's are opening your gifts of dishdrops and other quixtar gifts so you can make your points for the month remember that bill britt and the other diamonds at the top are giving their friends and families new cars, expensive jewelery, and other lavish gifts all on the ppl at the bottom of the pyramids expense! so i guess you all can keep shooting for your dreams of diamond and riches but after years and years and job after job and your only making that 88 bucks or less come on think like a normal rational person and relize that you are being sucked into a trap..losing friends and family members over there lies and in the end with them saying that it's a religious thing you may lose faith in god...god has nothing to with quixtar ..god loves you wheter your and ibo or not..don't let them fool you cause sad to say they are evil people taking money from those people who have lost faith in life and need somthing to pick them up!! but this is not the answer..be who you want to be..if quixtar makes you happy then fine but don't waste your time, money and push away people to make someone else rich!!!
oh by the way rd to your comment to tim that no one remembers people like him...how many people can you actually say know people in quixtar or that they are making an actual difference in the world!? Oh and for you people in quixtar who belive that Bill Britt is one of the top 10 richest people in the world or usa for that matter well..check out www.forbes.com and look at the list he's not even in the top 100! sorry quixtar monkeys you've been lied to agian but thats something simple you could look up and find for yourselfs but some reason unknown to normal people you don't look or even care...how very weird that you spend your money and go on the word of some man who makes money off of you!! interesting don't you think that you all follow and don't ask questions..ohh and the little natz salute to freedom you do at your functions is not only weird but scary!!
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING!
QUIXTAR IS VERY BAD!
STAY AWAY!!!
zoe, grow up. in this world all big shots make money. if u work, your CEO make money from u, your boss make moneny on u, so what is the problem, talking about ethical who is? are u? bro i was like u talking goodies, but real world killed it. so see the real world. all corporation has same goal. all top guys share the profit people like me and u are the victim of there goal. they make money u get fired beacuse they save your salary to create bounus. think it i goal ahould be all of is do something that makes u independent. the answer not quixtar there are other way u can do that.
Rd...well i have no comment to your insanity cause well just reread what you wrote and your own ignorance will shine threw! wow your college graduate...hmmm interesting..what school did you go to bill britt university...the college of quixtar?!!! Because I don't see any real university passing such a moron!! But hey it looks to me like your perfect for quixtar..dumb and easy to persuade!! so well rd shoot for that diamond cause it seems to me that with your stupidity it maybe the only chance you have at even making 88 dollars a month is in quixtar!!
zoe, i make twice then u make in your real job. next thing i understand about my english but my real job i dont have to deal with that. for u, u don't even make as i make if i join quixtar i would be better of then u r now. finally u r so naive that u do'nt understand the concept of a buisness. any how, if every one in this world do the same thing then everyone will be rich. another thing i could call u anything as a moron u told me i think it's u. enjoy your low life and complain why others are rich. as i know now, u r those kind of people who blame the system but u failed not the system kind of people like u have no guts to beat the systerm, such a looser like u help other to rich and u poor.
zoe, let me add i dont do quixtar i have real job and buisness. i make enough money u could think in your life. i dont have to go BWW system, BWWW system makes winner not losser like u, stop complaing beat the damm system can u, no u can't beacuse u dont have a guts to do it. i work my ass of to have what i have now. i never complain system sucks i knew i am the best and i will beat the system. if i join quixtar any day i will beat the system. can u ? no u can't beacause u are a pathatic looser, who is a sucecesful looser. if u married have kids give them more time and think about there college education. Don't waste your time in quixtar beacuse u can not be like them. finally, u r a dumb moron who do not understand a simple logic. bro i make triple moneny then u without joining quixtar, if i join it will be scary.
ok well rd i do belive that your lieing about your wages and you don't even know what I do for a living!??? quixtar isn't a buisness it's a way for lazy ppl like yourself with no self esteem or intelligence to pretend like you make something out of yourself and then you get all smug and act like you run the world , the only place i know of where you can live on the fabulous wages of 88 dollars a month is in some third world country so mr. rd why don't you try travling abroad and perhaps you can be the wealthest you know in ethiopia. i have nothing else to say to you cause your ignorance alone in your writing should prove to anyone pondering the idea to join quixtar what type of ppl are involved!!
zoe, rd,
Alright guys, knock it off, I think each of you has made your points admirably.
And just a note: A person who is reduced only to insulting the other person -- not the ideas or arguments they make, but them, personally -- is admitting they've got nothing real to offer.
And you both have horrible grammar and spelling -- and believe, me I'm no one to talk -- so neither of you should be dis'ing each other on that basis.
Zoe, you don't need to be stooping to "rd"'s tactics, 'k? And I appreciate your kindness.
I agree Tim...I'm not going to stoop down to his level any longer! Yes and I agree my grammer and spelling is not great at all. But i'm also a fashion designer so it's really not that important. I just want any potential quixtar people to beware of the scam and lies that are involved! It's not a good thing at all, it has nothing to do with how much time or evert you put into it you success in it is almost impossible but if your shady enough to lie, cheat and steal then well maybe bill britt does have a spot for you on peter island!!!
RD
Random Observation
If you're the kind of people Quixtar breeds, I want to stay miles away. All you are concerned about is money. Is money success to you? I think God is success. Did you know Jesus died with not even a place to lay his head? Wake up, materialism sucks!!!
Well it's starting to get national coverage for how much of a scam it really is!!! for any of you who didn't know or catch it Dateline had a special on last night about quixtar!! But yet those quixtar followers won't think anything of it other then a way for people to try to discourage "the Dream" well everyone else should read what was said go to http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/
if it stops one person then NBC's job is done!!
I work with a lady who has been in Quixtar for a few years. She went and tried to sign everyone up in the office. She is a manager of a marketing group for a major auto company. She never talked about it at work she always went out to lunch with everyone. Now this person is talked about behind her back and made fun of by everyone. She was p*ssing everyone off with her full court press. She still is working after telling me that she will be rich in a year or so. The whole thing is a scam. If 10% of the negativity was right then it is not for me. The out for the quixtar jokers is "you have to work hard". If you are rich then you have worked hard and if you are not you just need to work harder. The best part of the pitch is the brochure with the pictures of millionaires on it. The pictures of couples standing there in their Sundays bests. I think the only thing that proves is what a scam it is to show me something that proves nothing and try to make me believe it. CNN and Dateline NBC did not have anything good to say about quixtar.
They pretty much called it a scam. They did say you could make a few bucks(15 hours to make 100 bucks) but that was it. They also said a few of the diamonds have a criminal background opps!
I would say buy a copy of Money and invest on their stock picks or play the Lotto. Is there any word on the next name for Amway I mean Quixtar?
Thanks I enjoy looking forward to someone telling me I don't know what I'm talking about.
RIGHT ON DURAND!!! i see you know what it's like to work with a quixtar person!! its so annoying to here them go on and on about how rich they are going to be or how much money they are making and see nothing to prove it! I'm really glad this scam is starting to make more national coverage!! well keep spreading the word durand it's one of my personal goals after having to deal with these people that I can steer as many ppl away as possible! hope you do the same!
Interesting article. You must think much like I do. I had a similar experience with with Quixtar. I wrote about it in my blog at http://objectivefew.blogspot.com. I find it funny that we both used the same type of language when we were asked to hear the "sales pitch". I said, "I entered this seminar not as a skeptic but as an open-mined but wary individual", where you said, "Yes, of course I'm skeptical, but I'm also open-minded. They're not incompatible, you know."
Anyway, you have an awesome site, I appreciate your ability to think on your own, it makes for some interesting articles. A person can have beliefs and ideas without being completely biased.
Websites like this one are truly beneficial. My best friend got into the Quixtar business from a co-worker. She was very interested in it, did some research, and then talked to me about it. We went to a weekly meeting together. Right away I felt something was wrong. Something just didn't sit right with me. She on the other hand, decided it was a very good investment for her. I don't like the way they use Christianity as a ploy to make people feel better about being involved. She doesn't believe that the motivational speakers are being paid lots of money to give sales pitches, that in fact, they are not speakers but sales people trying to sell the business idea to others. Unfortuantely, she is so far gone into this business, no matter what anyone tells her she still believes this is a good idea for her life. She's becoming someone who I barely see or hear from. She is spending money on trips and meetings a lot, only in the business herself a month or two. I hate that she has become so far involved in this that she doesn't listen to the people that care about her. I don't trust a business under investigation by the FBI. She's a different person that what I know, and it's so sad. I pray that other people can learn from their experiences with this business and warn others, it's not the happy warm environment people think.
i joined quixtar 2 monhs ago and dont like the way they hold back imformation. i was on s.o for my first month and then came off cuz the tapes were doing nothing for me. Second they said it was only $7.50 a week but every time it came it was $15.00. Third they say the money you spend on tools is a tax write off. Bull#@$%. You will only receive a 1099 form if quixtar pays you at least $600.00 in checks for the year. Which means if you dont make $600.00 from the business you cant write anything off.Fourthly summer conference is coming up and they keep saying that if you dont attend that you are not serious about your business. now im not going cuz i cannot afford it and im not that enthused about people talking about the money they made and trying to keep me siked up. I have a friend in the business and she spends all her money on quixtar and didnt even have money to get her hair and nails done for her college graduation.I think the concept is good as far as the business model is concerned. but im taking my time. im not stressing myself out to make a hundred pv. i will do a little retailing and hope to get some repeat customers. and everybody i register i am telling them all the things that the uplines dont so that there wont be any hard feelings. So if you tell someone the real deal and they still join it is a good chance they will not quit due to being deceived.
Hi, I was in the old Amway, long ago, nobody I know is still in the biz. Might be interested in trying the Quixtar version but it's like they've all vanished! I know it's supposed to be saturated and all but not around here... I only know one guy in town, in the biz, but I don't know him personally, I only know OF him and I don't know how to get ahold of him. Nobody else I know who I could call, would be able to sign me up. Anyway, if you are in the WWDB group then maybe you'd want to email me, I'd like to get some more info please. Also let me know your line of sponsorship, I definitely would want to be in Puryear's group again, but if you could tell me who your diamond is, and any major pins between your diamond and Puryear (if any), that would help too. Maybe your direct too, although I'm sure I won't recognize the name. Or whatever the new terminology is for 'direct', because I heard they changed a few of the titles but am not versed on the new lingo. Not sure if this webform filters out email addresses (some do) so I'll put mine in "phonetic" style and hope you're clever enough to make the simple conversion here: Todd Aht WriteNextDoor Doht Cohm
Wow.
That's fascinating.
Here's a guy who knows it was Amway, knew it reached saturation and eventually fell apart (which would have left people stuck at the "bottom"!) but thinks there are still people left to sign up to Quixtar and wants to get involving in doing it to some folks again!
Wow.
Saturation....... refridgearaters, washers, dryers, etc. If saturation was the problem than all of the people who make these things would have been goning out of business. I has been studing the pros and cons of Quixtar for the last 3 months. The reason that Amway went out of business is because there was coruption in the down lines and lies told that ended it. But the BWW company has been around for 30+ yrs. The Quixtar came around in 1999. The business was a catolog then progressed to internet. The method has been proven time and time. In a company that gave 998 million back to its IBO's last year and created 24,000+ millioniares in since its been opened. The company is as legal as can be. The Quixtar part is owned by the DeVose and Van Andel Family. So of the richest people. The company is approved by the FTC (Fedral Trade Commission). I admit the company is not for everyone. I was skeptical at first but as I researched it, talked to dropouts, and sucessful people. I came to find out it was right for me but not my best friend. We are still as tight as ever. Even if you don't like the "business" part the products are still great and very fair. I tell everone I talk to the you will work and you will have to spend money but if you work at it sooner or later you will make good money. The company isn't for everyone. the only reason I joined and many others that I sponsered is that little extra a month that helps out a lot. That $88 that everyone is after they bought thier tapes and books and went to the functions, so that $88 is the sendable cash. If you don't won't to do all that you'll have more money. And for the dreams part, if it wasn't for dreams that many of the greats woulndn't be our greats. The one that comes to my mind is Micheal Jordan. Only paled his senior year in high school and if it wasn't for his "DREAM" of beening a NBA player that after he got cut his Jr. year and lost his "DREAM" than we would never know who Micheal Jordan is. This is just my thought and what I feel, but the rich people I talk to not with Quixtare and the ones that are the got to that leveal the same way and that is hard work, sacifices, and risk. They also so listen to the negitaive as well as the good. For instance Walt Disney got 1001 no for a business partner befor he got a yes so it goes to show you that no matter what others say, they may be right and they may be wrong but the choice is yours. Like I said Quixtar is not for everyone but the principals are the same as with anyother business. One more thing alway check all aspects of anything before you decicde and do give uo because of what others say. You can look any of this up if you don't belive me.
Excuse the Grammer
I would just like to say that I find this site very interesting. This is one of the only places where I have found such heated debate over the benefits/scam aspect of Quixtar. I am an IBO myself, I've been in for about 3 months. At this point in time I can't claim success only being at the 1000PV level. I have read just about every negative thing online about Quixtar/Amway and just find this site fascinating.
I believe that it is important to try and answer people's questions about the business (which is what has led me to read as much criticism as I can find). If my upline hasn't told me the answer to a question then (in theory) I shouldn't know the answer. I don't believe in giving these general, circular-logic responses. Also, I feel the need to gain background information on the corporation (since the corporation can have a positive or adverse effect on my ability to generate income). So, foo-foo the whole "don't spread negative" or "stinkin' thinkin'" approach.
Obviously, I have read all of this information, but still feel that there is something to gain from Quixtar. I don't necessarily belienve in the AMO side of things.
I get creeped out at open meetings with all the fake people, I think people put more work into being fake than they do building their businesses. I have definitely met some sincere people who really care, but for the most part I see the "Fake it 'till you Make it" strategy in full effect. I have also heard every invalid argument known to man (at least it seems that way). I didn't know it was so easy to become a drone, but apparently I underestimate the power of the human mind sometimes.....
I got tired of hearing about rags-to-riches stories and how everyone can be a diamond if they put the work in. But I do see the power of the books. I know that both my wife and I have changed tremendously and grown closer together as a result of this business. So, at the very least you can greatly improve your self image (if you can block out your annoying upline). As a for instance, I dislike my sponsor tremendously (one of the fake people) and avoid her at all costs. However, I spend a lot of my time with my upline Ruby who genuinely seems to care about my wife and I.
The simple math is (by way of the "plan") to go 7500 you will need 75 people in your organization each doing their hundred points. Let's just look at the first tier (your original six). In order to make a large sum of money (and be a diamond) you need to have six legs at 7500 points. That means you need to have 450 people in your group. This doesn't even consider that your personally sponsored downline will want to duplicate "going diamond". But, "there is no such thing as saturation with 6 billion people in the world". Thanks, but I don't plan on calling Poland any time soon.
I personally can't relate to the Christianity aspect of the business. Nobody on my team has really preached about it, so no I haven't heard that claim yet. I also chose not to go the the "worship service" at the last conference because I don't think that business (if business is actually done at these conferences) should be mixed with religion at least how it is done in this example.
So, despite the little rant I just went on (sorry about that!). I still firmly believe that I can make a decent amount of money with Quixtar. I also think that it is totally possible to maintain logic and build the business. Unlike the guy before (the one with horrible english), I think I can truly say that I don't care if a prospect gets in my business. I am truly only looking for people who want to work, and are willing to put the effort into the contacting and plan showing. If people are uninterested, that's totally fine by me. This thing isn't for everyone, and if it was I think our economy would be in an interesting state.
I guess I'll just wrap this up by saying that I think it is totally possible to build a successful Quixtar business without the other junk. I also think that there are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who give it a worse reputation than it might already have. All I can personally say is that I enjoy most of the products that I've purchased, and my business is growing. I'm certainly not in line with the 4-month model, but that's just unrealistic.
Once again, thanks for letting my present my perspective.
Frank,
First off, thanks for what is probably one of the most reasoned, level-headed, honest defenses of Quixtar posted here.
And yes, I agree, some of the products are pretty good, and yes, I've heard some people say they've been helped by the books and tapes.
But, all that being said, it's not so much the books and the products which are the problem, but "the plan" and the way it is marketed. If Quixtar just sold self-help books and products, I wouldn't have bothered to post this!
Yes, there is some money to be made. But not, as you admit, for most. The upline payments structure ensures that. I think you're right that you can keep your sanity. However, given what I have learned, I concluded I couldn't maintain my logic and ethics while signing people up.
I realized that I had to add people below me much faster than the population growth rate for the business to be profitable, and also realized that each person would have less profit potential and a harder job -- and ultimately some downlines will be stuck holding the bag. That violates the "do unto others" rule, since you (or at least I) wouldn't want to be those final people -- and we make hundreds of them to make a profit!
Given this situation, I find it ironic and sad that Christian ethics, which gave us the "do unto others" rule being violated here, is being superficially invoked to justify this kind of silliness.
Furthermore, even all that weren't true, even IBOs who attempt to be ethical and honest (and sane) will end up inadvertantly helping to support a group which tpyically violates their own personal rules for conduct, as your own testimony again implies.
All that aside, I wish you luck with the other parts of your life; wish you well in general. And thanks again for your polite, thoughtful, and honest contribution!
Hi everybody,
Thanks for interesting discussion.
I live in Russia so don't blame me for my English. I believe that your present is our future, and suppose it is a good idea to look at Amway perspectives in my country from this point. As far as I can see, in the U.S. Amway have rather bad reputation. Now it expands quickly on East-European markets and there is already a bunch of diamonds and emeralds here (although market is not yet officially opened in Russia and everybody is registered in some other country, primarily in Hungary). When you get only $100-300 a month on your job, the perspective of getting even $500 more is very exciting (guess what about $2000???), that's why I think that in our poor countries this "business opportunity" might be more successful than in North America. So I see some positive aspects for Russia:
- new market - saturation is far enough
- good financial education for people who have lived all their lives in non-market economy
- WES with Brian Tracy I attended in Hungary was just $110, after all I think it was a great price!
I see some negatives either, and the main thing that every upline tells about things that very hard to prove, for example: "There are more than 1.000.000 goods in Quixtar, so will be in Russia someday", "In Japan, 90% of population uses Amway and there are thousands of diamonds there", "You can buy a car via Quixtar" etc.
Basically, the stressing point they make is that the system like Quixtar will replace all traditional stores and services some day, but I am very doubt about this, because I have no idea where they would take money for paying bonuses for non-Amway goods. Manufacturer won't sell his product to Quixtar for 30% less than to Walmart, isn't he? And I guess Walmart's overheads are not 30% more than Quixstar's?
Can anybody help me also with those questions? Maybe you'll find them silly but it looks a bit different from here:
- when I log in to Quixtar as a guest, do I see the same goods as a registered (IBO)? I can't see any cars? and there are hardly 1.000.000 of items, right?
- logging in as a guest I see that "suggested retail price" in "store for more" is the same or up to 30% more than the price for same items at walmart or costco. What discount gets an IBO for SFM goods? Is it 30% or less? Why should one order non-Amway related items on Quixtar if there is more choice on Walmart for the same or less price, with the same delivery conditions?
- Do you see a perspective of buying petrol or paying for cell calls or consult lawyers via the system, getting PV for all of these? Or it is just fantasies of our diamond leaders?
Frankly, I think that Quixtar is only a new way of selling Amway products and not more. As for business itself, my opinion is very close to Frank's one.
You have made a good point in the sense of working too hard and making too little. However, you are missing the poing of the NETWORK MARKETING. Idea x Invest = $
We small timers do not have the fundings to invest in things so QuixTar creats an Idea for us to fill the gap.
It is true that more people are heard of the business, but not all are negetive about it. Some may be just waiting for their time, or not ready yet.
All of the money that is generated in this business is from the products sold. No one is ripping money from anyone. You might be thinking of a FRANCHISE if so, then you are right. but this is a residual income everyone had to start out from the bottom. Lets not be angry that whatever you work for you work to get your UPLINKs rich, but consider that you can also be like that and you will have someone working to make you rich. What goes around comes around. Talking about some Christian ethics!!! We should look at the long run and how small timers can reach a goal of wealth; just like the big timers.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/
http://www.amquix.info/dateline/mack_response.html
These links should be of interest.
just to follow up the 2 links i posted above...
Jamie: "All of the money that is generated in this business is from the products sold. No one is ripping money from anyone."
Well where's the proof to back up your statement? Can you prove that these Quixstar leaders are not pocketing money from tapes,cds,books and conferences?
Warning, Warning, Warning,
My wife and I, my parents, & my sister, all are rich because of our EFFORT and Quixtar's business plan. As a matter of fact, of the friends I started with in the beginning, all but three are financially free. And while you sit on your computers and talk about saturation, I will go out and find one more person and will help them do the same ( to date there are over 200 people/couples in my business that have attained it ). I am constantly amused by how many talk, but so little do. If you don't do Quixtar do something and quit whining. So warning, don't get involved and run with it or unless you want to pay more taxes :)
ps. and those of you that complain about money being made from tapes ect... Can you think of any tape, seminar, service, or product that you can purchase where someone doesn't make money? The manufacture makes money, the author/artist makes money, the distributor makes money, the shipper makes money, this site will go away or eventually make money, and when you go to work on Monday, someone is making money. That's business.
Don,
Are you really? How "rich" are you?
So are you a Diamond? Tell us a little more about your lifestyle, how long you've been doing Quixtar, and how many people are under you.
If you want to be really convincing, you might even go as far as to an e-mail address!
Tim, I found your blog from a link you posted in re: my comments about libertarianism. Earlier this year, a kid-- really sharp young guy-- tried to sell me on Quixtar. Fortunately, I have more than two functioning brain cells. I wrote him the following letter, which is quite long (please forgive if its length is excessive. I have removed his name & changed a few details...
Dear K
When you introduced yourself at Best Buy the other night, I was intrigued by your claim to be a consultant to help clients develop web-based independently-owned business. That is why I agreed to meet with you today. That is to say, your claim seemed worth investigating, even though you never made clear exactly why you wanted to meet. From the outset, I doubted that I would be interested, but I wanted to give you a chance because you seemed like a nice kid. The way I figured, maybe down the road, I'd like to hire some consultants to build a website for my small business (because that's what it sounded like you do).
Now, some strong words are coming along here, but I implore you to read all the way through. It sounds like you don't have a single responsible, ethical, informed adult in your life, and so I'm going to be just that.
First off, I am furious that you wasted an hour of my life on a holiday-- one of my favorites, by the way. You tried to recruit me away from a well-paying job with security, stability, and benefits (health insurance, dental insurance, vision insurance, life insurance, stock options, medical savings plans, etc) to join what is, essentially, a secular cult. You asked me to risk my children's well-being and their shot at a good life so that you could have a level below you in the pyramid. (A pyramid is a pyramid is a pyramid, whether it's made of triangles, cubes, or ovals.)
Far stronger than my anger, however, is genuine concern: You seem like a good, bright, energetic guy, and you are absolutely pissing your life away if you continue down this path.
You see, what you presented at lunch was a far cry from a program educating me (or anyone else) how to be a business owner. (The reason, by the way, that most small business owners do what they do is that they're passionate about their product or service, not because they want to avoid work.) I don't know if you realize this, or if you understand its significance-- You're an Amway salesman. (Quixtar is Amway's Internet name, probably because most people-- especially anyone over the age of 30-- know that Amway is a huge scam.)
This is not a new organization, nor is a particularly lucrative "career" for most participants. I don't blame you for your outrageous claims about Microsoft or the Federal Trade Commission because you believe what your boss in Raleigh says. But every scrap of information that you presented today was either false or poisonously misleading.
The FTC is no fan of Amway. There have been numerous investigations into it (because it IS a pyramid scheme-- it's just not an illegal one), but Amway has been let off time and again. This is not because the FTC approves of its business practices or business plan, but because they can't nail Amway for breaking any laws.
P.T. Barnum said that there's a sucker born every minute, and I'm glad for every other baby born the same minute as you, because brother, you are it. You dropped out of college to become an Amway salesman. Again, YOU DROPPED OUT OF COLLEGE TO BECOME AN AMWAY SALESMAN. Son, you've got to get your ass in gear and get your life back together. I'm assuming that you have intelligence and potential since you were accepted at Queens, but you have turned down a very dangerous road, and if you want to see yourself in twenty years if you don't turn around pretty quickly, go to a Hardee's and look at the manager. Ask yourself how healthy, wealthy, and wise he looks.
Now, I'm going to offer some unrequested, very good advice-- Go back to school just as soon as you can. If they'll let you back in at Queen's, and if you've got the money, go back there. If that doesn't work, go to UNC, or a tech school, or anywhere. You're still young enough to fix your mistakes.
You have been preyed upon by an evil man. Yes, I know that your friend happens to be married to his
daughter, and I hope that his daughter is more ethical than her dad. The idea that a grown man would recruit kids out of college (and that they'd consequently drop out) to sell Amway is chilling beyond words.
The odds are stacked way, way against you ever making a successful career out of Amway/Quixtar. The odds for making $65K/year are 1,809 to 1 against. This is roughly equivalent to taking $450 worth of quarters, coloring one of them red, mixing all of them up, closing your eyes, and plucking out the red one at random.
The odds for making $997K/yr are 254,064 to 1 against. This is equivalent to taking a stack of quarters 1/4 of a mile high, coloring one red, mixing them up in a tremendous vat, blindfolding yourself, and plucking out the red one.
Lottery odds aren't much worse than these, buddy.
And let's say that you do make it, against all odds. Let's say that you become wealthy beyond your dreams. You'll be doing it by misleading and preying upon fools, just like you've been misled and someone else's prey. You'll be living off of what is essentially stolen money because everyone on the bottom of the pyramid gets screwed. Now ask yourself, how happy and fulfilled is Tony Soprano?
Turn around, K. Turn around. Go back to school and get your degree, and when you get out, get a regular job that pays well and has benefits. Make a clean break with all of the Quixtar folks. Say goodbye to your boss and don't look back. If that means losing your relationship with your friend, tell him that you'll miss him, and move on. If he's a true friend, he'll still be there when you walk away from Quixtar. Living the good life is far more important than destroying yourself because that's what your friend is doing.
So get a degree, and get a job-- a real job. Fall in love with A, if that doesn't work out, another girl. Have children with her and love those kids with all your heart, and do what it takes to provide for them-- food, shelter, consistency, insurance, love. Quixtar will not-- cannot-- give you those things.
It is possible to succeed in a regular business, even at a megacorporation. I've made my choices at UltraSuperMegaBank, Inc-- my choice is to work at home. I'm still well compensated and an Assistant Vice President. (The idea that two incomes are necessary, as you asserted today, is absurd, as long as one person makes $40K/yr or more. Most women end up getting paid minimum wage or less when you deduct out the cost of day care, an extra car, etc. Most work outside of the home because it's politically incorrect to be a homemaker now, or because they think that having luxury items is more important than having healthy kids.)
If I were willing to work in a city, I could make a load more money. A friend of mine started at the bank five or six years ago as a phone agent in a call center-- they start around $30K/year. He worked hard and got multiple promotions, willing to relocate anywhere in America and doing it a few times. He makes six figures now. He's 28 years old.
If you ignore my advice and stay with Quixtar, you might as well speed up the process-- Move out of your house, stop bathing, start a drug habit, and select a bridge to live under. Because if you don't turn your life around, you'll be a bum one way or another.
I say this harshly, in kindness. If you want to learn more, check out these links:
http://skepdic.com/amway.html
http://www.amquix.info/amway.html
Sincerely
Dark Knight
Tim,
I am a Diamond with 5 Diamonds and 30 Emeralds in my group. We are all doing very well thanks. Dark Knight, you are well spoken but misguided. Do the "financial Freedom" math on your job tomorrow and tell me what you come up with. If I had to settle for a 9-5 for the next 40-50, just shoot me :)
Don
You know something? All negativity aside, if people would just take a moment and think about this business opportunity and realize it's true financial potential, then it can work.
You want to know why this business doesn't work for a lot of people? Because they are not willing to work together as a team.
Platinum and beyond is DEFINITELY reachable, all it takes is teamwork. 300 PV from one person, 300 PV from another, and so forth. Meet with your group weekly, bond with each other, have fun, share your dreams. That's the way this business SHOULD be run.
Everyone you sponsor is part of your team, and when you have a team, I suggest you take the word teamwork seriously.
The more tight you are with your upline and as well as the rest of your team, the more successful all of you will be.
The money promised at the Platinum and above levels is certainly real and they will most certainly give it to you if you reach those levels. But how do you reach those levels? 7500 is the first step. How do you reach 7500? In most cases, not by yourself, 300 PV from yourself and each person on the team. Everybody chips in. What happens if everyone decides to work together as a team instead of selfish individuals sponsored by the same person? 7500 is what happens.
It all depends on who you are working with in this business, who your upline is. If your upline isn't as willing enough to be tight with you and the rest of his/her team, then you're working with the wrong person.
I'm a teamwork person, if you're with me, that's what you get, dedicated teamwork. Togetherness. I'm one of the best uplines you'll ever find in this business. At the moment my team is still growing, but that is due to the fact that I meet an unbelievable amount of people who are not into teamwork. What is the world coming to?
If 6-12 people can get together and realize this, spend time with each other outside of the business, get to know one another, and work together, then they CAN do this.
For the record, I've never said Quixtar can't make some money for some people -- clearly there ARE people, like Diamonds*, who make a good income, and will make a profit whether or not those under them do. I can understand how such a person would be eager to convince others to contribute to his or her income.
Sadly, as far as I can see, (a) the Quixtar "plan" is not ethical, by Christian standards (do unto others), and (b) it's not the most profitable use of time for the typical person -- even minimum wage jobs will give a better average return.
I explain these points in detail here and here.
[* If one of my few postings on this topic truly has attracted one of these rare birds, I find that amusing: What other kind of business that size is so sensitive to bad PR that it would be concerned about even a few comments from an obscure blogger like me? I could never attract the attention of Walmart or Microsoft (an IBO will often compare Quixtar to these two companies) with such a paltry effort. That should tell the reader something.]
Concerning these two comments:
(1) I am a Diamond with 5 Diamonds and 30 Emeralds in my group... Dark Knight, you are well spoken but misguided. Do the "financial Freedom" math on your job tomorrow and tell me what you come up with
(2) All negativity aside, if people would just take a moment and think about this business opportunity and realize it's true financial potential, then it can work.
Oh, good! Let's do the math, then, shall we?
Odds of becoming an Emerald through Quixtar last year? Less than one in 1,200. Average Emerald income? $67,420. Many full-time employees would be taking a pay cut to work as an Emerald, and I know far more than 30 people who earn that kind of income.
But how are things for the other 1,199 out of that 1,200? The average active Quixtar IBO earned $115 per month. If you worked a low-paying job for $6 per hour, you'll earn more than that in 20 hours' work. But Quixtar asks you to work almost twice that much, meaning the average active IBO earns about $3 per hour.
Yeah, great supplemental income. :-)
For your upline Diamond, that is. :-)
Tim,
You make a very curious assumption. Of the 1200 people you speak of, unfortunately, there may be 5 to 10 that are doing what it takes. The others are just shopping. Yes they saw the plan, yes they said they where going to get rich, but sadly, they are just shopping. Lets assume that these shoppers are making $5 to $10 (when I say assume I do have actual figures ). Now lets do the math on the 5 to 10 builders that are producing over $18,000 TO $20,000 a month. It's a lot higher than you think.
Second, and I quote, [* If one of my few postings on this topic truly has attracted one of these rare birds, I find that amusing: What other kind of business that size is so sensitive to bad PR that it would be concerned about even a few comments from an obscure blogger like me? I could never attract the attention of Walmart or Microsoft (an IBO will often compare Quixtar to these two companies) with such a paltry effort. That should tell the reader something.]
Tim, I am no Microsoft or Walmart but will do over 30 million this year through Quixtar. I am not sensitve to any " bad PR ". I have heard it all....This is interesting to me, We are adding over 1,200 a month right now into Quixtar and I would like to increase the odds of those that make it. Most who join seem as though they have dreams but many want it to come to them easy. " How can I sit home and become wealthy?" This is where I will put my focus. You can talk all you want about Quixtar or any other business for that matter, but no matter what you choose, It takes work.
Two people buy an exercise bike.. one looses weight and one doesn't... What is wrong with the bike????? Lets talk about the "bike", lets criticize the " Bike", Lets dedicate a web site to the problems with the bike.. :)
Tim, Dark Knight, and others... this will be my last post but I do thank you for the education.
Don
The Don:"My wife and I, my parents, & my sister, all are rich because of our EFFORT and Quixtar's business plan. As a matter of fact, of the friends I started with in the beginning, all but three are financially free. And while you sit on your computers and talk about saturation, I will go out and find one more person and will help them do the same ( to date there are over 200 people/couples in my business that have attained it ). I am constantly amused by how many talk, but so little do. If you don't do Quixtar do something and quit whining. So warning, don't get involved and run with it or unless you want to pay more taxes :)
Typical response. “I am constantly amused by how many talk, but so little do. If you don't do Quixtar do something and quit whining.”
Instead directly answering questions and accepting criticism, you insult. You’re basically telling me that because I choose to question the business and it’s practices and because I choose to share an opinion which happens to be against Quixstar, I am doing very little. I am a complainer. I am a whiner.
Anyway, amidst the acerbity: Your basis is that the Quixstar system works though based on Quixstar’s own figures, the majority of people are not profitable, with the average IBO bring in $1,380 per year (not considering their expenses).
Your main point is: you are successful with Quixstar, so to are your family. Basically because you are successful and you know people who are successful, the system works.
Secondly:
If one don’t put effort into it, one will fail, not the system. The system works.
(The Don's analogy: “Two people buy an exercise bike.. one looses weight and one doesn't... What is wrong with the bike????? Lets talk about the "bike", lets criticize the " Bike", Lets dedicate a web site to the problems with the bike.. :)”
Btw this analogy would be accurate if the success to failure in the Quixstar business was 1:1.)
Obviously the system has shown to work...no question about that. The real question is, who does it work for? The answer is in the published figures.
Continuing my post from directly above...
"Of the 1200 people you speak of, unfortunately, there may be 5 to 10 that are doing what it takes."
Ah yes, of course. Only .4% to .8% of every 1200 people are actually doing what it takes.
The people who worked day and night recruiting, attempting to sell products,going to the siminars, meetings, phone conferencing, rallies, buying tapes, cds, books but didn't make jack sh*t - they surely didn't do what it took.
At least you're admitting the failure rate Don.
Don,
Thanks for remaining thoughtful.
You make a very curious assumption. Of the 1200 people you speak of, unfortunately, there may be 5 to 10 that are doing what it takes.
No offense, but it is you who speculates, that about 5 are "doing what it takes" to someday become one of the "winners". I think that's reasonable (probably a little high), and don't fault you for it, but then again I'm not the one complaining about assumptions.
Even if so: What of it? So what if 5 more of those IBOs eventually get their place in the sun someday? How does that justify the carnage of the majority, the "losers" who worked as hard (or perhaps even harder -- relative entry time is important than effort) but never even broke even, and never will?
It's not like it's sold with a disclaimer that says: "We'll ask you to lay out about a minimum of $1.2k per year and spend a minimum of 480 hours. Most of you will never break even, compared to minimum wage."
You clearly have some set of ethics which feels such tradeoffs are acceptable. I don't share it. I'm not here to convince you that you're wrong, just here to explain my own case, by my own ethics, for those who happen to share them.
We are adding over 1,200 a month right now into Quixtar and I would like to increase the odds of those that make it.
Quixtar basicly works because the lowest-level IBOs have day jobs to pay into the system; on its own it generates no wealth.
Becaues of this, IBOs only succeeds by having many more pay in who will never see the profit. That's not a side effect, it's how it works. Population doesn't grow fast enough to make it go on infinitely, and a person raises to a certainly level only because there are lots of little people beneath them, who cannot all (or even mostly) win, giving their uplines money.
As such, one way I can think to increase the number of "winners" is to have fewer "big winners", and redistribute money to make more medium-sized winners.
You could also try to increase the absolute number of "winners" by getting everyone involved. But you increase the absolute number of "losers" at the same time.
But, as I said above, the best way to make every IBO, on average, end up with the most wealth possible, is to ask them all to leave Quixtar.
I don't mean that as an extreme statement or a slam. I simply think, factually, that's a true statement. Again, see here.
Two people buy an exercise bike.. one looses weight and one doesn't... What is wrong with the bike????? Lets talk about the "bike", lets criticize the " Bike", Lets dedicate a web site to the problems with the bike.. :)
Not a similar situation: The bike doesn't work by sucking the fat off one person and putting it onto ten others. Or vise versa. People will never lose weight, on average, in such a system because you're just moving it around. That's a closer analogy to what goes on in Quixtar.
I wish you the best in everything else. :-)
Sincerely,
- Tim
I became an IBO four years ago, but quickly found a similar site to this one and decided that Quixtar was a scam. It sounded too good to be true. I felt like I was robbed. However, a few months ago I became an IBO again after doing a little more research. I regret not continuing Quixtar 4 years ago. In the future, I will not be easily persuaded by someone’s biased ranting.
I went to Quixtar.com and read the Business Reference Guide so I could fully understand the system. It takes time to read, but it is worth every minute. I realized that Quixtar is a good investment for ME.
Why do people spend thousands of dollars on "tools?" Motivational organizations rip people off and you blame Amway/Quixtar for some reason. Quixtar does not own these motivational organizations. Some high level IBOs decided they could make big bucks buy selling this crap. Hey! not everyone who becomes an IBO is a moral person. That isn’t going to stop me from missing out on a good investment.
Why do people buy stuff they don't need? Currently, I am only buying toothpaste and biodegradable dishwashing liquid. I love these products and would certainly buy them if I weren’t an IBO. People always complain about shipping. Even after shipping charges, my investment is still less than $75/year. There are plenty of times when I have made extra trips to the store just to buy toothpaste or dishwashing liquid. That doesn’t happen anymore. To save money on shipping I buy several tubes of toothpaste at a time.
Quixtar is not a get rich quick scheme. It could take years for me to make some good money. However, if I sign up 2 people, I can reach Platinum whether I do anymore work or not. Your business can get very large and you may not receive a bonus. This is because most people don't receive a Monthly Performance Bonus on downline volume until they reach the status of Platinum or above. Check out rule 4.22 in the Business Reference Guide at Quixtar.com. If you don't have enough member/client sales, it will take longer before you see any decent size bonuses.
I believe that success as an IBO is dependent on a good training system that can be duplicated. Many people need help with their Independent Business. Perhaps this is why motivational organizations are so successful. But motivational organizations are costly and time consuming. For this reason, I am creating a FREE online IBO training system that will be completed soon. I could have trained many people in the time that it has taken to complete my training website, but I want to make sure everyone in my downline knows exactly what they are getting into and has a way to train their prospects as well.
What is so bad about being on “the bottom?” All the people on the top started at the bottom. I understand how the bonuses are paid and I’ll make sure my downline knows too. Don’t expect to sign up and get rich quick. Because of rule 4.22, even if you spend 40 hours a week prospecting new IBOs, you may not make money for a long time. After working so hard with little cash to show for it people ditch the business. If they knew the rules they would not run their business like that.
Please feel free to challenge my OPINION.
Ben
Hey Tim,
I had been a distributor in Amway and then when the new Quixtar biz launched on 9/1/99 I became an IBO. I had been involved in this MLM game since the early 90's. Most people that are new to Quixtar tend to be blinded by the needs they have in their life and the good things they want for their families as we all do. Having been someone that was involved with Britt Worldwide (BWW) for many years it is easy for me to see how new folks can really buy into the "system". It is hard to realize the control that the higher pins have and how they protect their income from the tool business, aka "the system". You need to do your 100 points every month to qualify for your bonus and U must also check the little box that says U did your member/client volume in retail. This makes it a business in the IRS eyes. When I got my eyes opened recently it was because I came across Bo Shorts website formerdiamond.com. I knew when I read what he had to say that he was speaking from the heart and not from greed. After I read all he had to say I went to my upline and told them I could no longer be part of something that I knew was using others to just get them to buy more tools and keep the system going to keep the big pins and their cash cow going. I was told that their are expenses to running a business. I was also told by my Diamond that I should not be passing negative downline and crossline. I told her that as far as I was concerned that when U have knowledge U then have responsibility. What U do with that knowledge is up to U. I think it is hard for new folks to get an idea of what really goes on inside Quixtar until they have been around for a few years and have built groups and seen them disappear. When they are just starting out they have their upline to cushion the rejection etc.... for them. I know Bo Short got it right. When U know in your spirit that something is wrong, U need to listen to it and not bury your head in the sand. We can all easily get swayed by what we want for our families, but at what price when we know the truth? And if U believe God to be your source then U don't put your faith in the world system anyway. Most folks never even pray before they step out on a business venture, they tend to make their decisions based on the amount of money they can make or how it will better their life. I am due to expire as an IBO and will only buy a product if I can't get it anywhere else, like the Energy drinks.
Sincerely,
Sue in VA
Bo Short is not very intelligent. He can't distinguish between Quixtar and the AMOs, which are not owned by Quixtar. Bo Short keeps bashing Quixtar, but all his complaints are about about the AMOs and their tools business. QUIXTAR is just another MLM. You don't have to join an AMO. The funniest thing is that Bo Short has started his own MLM and continues to bash Quixtar in an attempt to gain more business. What a joke!
Please, everyone, send all of your money to me. If you do, there's a small chance I might someday mail it back to you, multipled many times. If I feel like it.
But no, all of you are too involved with your "negativity". If you would just put away your "negativity", stop looking for facts and checking to see if my claims are actually true or relevant, you would then realize what a great opportunity I'm giving you.
Don't let your friends and relatives, all of who aren't rich, tell you what do. Instead, please listen to me, a complete stranger, who definitely has your best interests at heart.
Again, they're not rich! What would they know about building a business system? Listen to me instead. (And no, why on earth should I show you my tax returns to prove whether I'm rich, either?)
Look, you can sit and home and mope for the rest of your life. Or you can be positive, and do something about it. Get out that checkbook and start writing that big check to me NOW.
Look around: Do you see other people working? Their bosses will always make more than they will. They're not going to have a fraction of the wealth I will once you send me those checks. Do you want to be a loser, just like them? No? Then send me a check! Right now!
There are people who will tell you this is a "get rich quick" scheme. Don't listen to them! They are negative losers! This is no "scheme"! This investment requires work -- you'll have to do a lot of work in order to have enough cash to send me a nice, big fat check. One which might make me grateful enough to send you back an even bigger one. (Once I get done spending it and see what's left, that is.)
And don't believe those "negative" people when they warn you that you don't know anything about business. See -- they think you're incompetant! They don't believe in you. Like I do.
Also, since you don't probably know anything about business (it's scary -- believe me, you don't want to get into it without me, you don't have what it takes, trust me), choose my system: it's an easy system that anyone can do. In fact, I just can't understand why everyone in the world isn't a millionaire as they'd surely all be if they just all did it!
Look, this is a proven system used by lots and lots of people to get rich. (Like all those real-estate people on TV who make money from the "system" they sell you.) I'm sure it will work. (For me!)
Another warning: You'll probably also meet people who say they are "experts" in my system! They have all kinds of charts and graphs... Ask them if they got rich by doing this system? They're not rich, are they? Remember what I told you about listening to people who aren't rich! (And oh, STOP asking me that!)
Oh, wait, they are rich? Then they're just trying to keep you from getting rich -- they have something but they don't want you to have it. Yeah, that's it.
So remember: No advice from business experts. And no advice from people who aren't business experts. Only listen to me.
And stay away from people who haven't tried my system: They haven't done it, so they don't know anything about it.
And there's one more negative type of person I need to warn you about: You may run into a lot of people who said they have tried my system; people who said they did sent me a check, but that I didn't pay them back even more. But look at them! They're negative, complaining losers! I told them, just like I'm telling you now, that you can't expect to get a lot of this system if you don't put a lot into it. And they didn't show me nearly enough dedication by sending big enough checks. So now they blame others, and me, for their own personal failures! Because they can't be realistic about what negative losers they are.
No wonder I didn't want to send money back to a whining, complaining, snivelling coward like that. You wouldn't either. 'Cause you, unlike them, are a winner. And winners stay away from losers like that! Don't let them spread their "negativity" to you!
Last, why look at any other business opportunities? Stop being so "negative" about mine by comparing it to other options! Since I'm sitting here now talking to you, my idea must earn more than a second job.
You'll never make anything of yourself if you listen to losers who don't want what's best for your. They're just jealous because they know they are losers, and they want YOU to be a loser too. They don't want what's in your best interest.
Not like I do.
So get out that checkbook and start writing. Now.
INTRO
First, let me say that I am a Quixtar IBO.
I simply would like to respond to a few of the remarks listed above.
I'm not a millionare. I am an engineer working everyday like probably everyone of you. I have more than the average consumer debt and all of that I take complete responsibility for. I don't live on a budget, but I am currently in the process of developing one so that I can get my debt under control.
JOINING
So the fact of the matter is that I was looking for something to help me get out of debt quicker! Not a get rich quick opportunity because there is no such thing without very,very high risk involved. So, I was approached by gentleman that simply asked "Do you ever keep your options open for ways to make extra money in addition to what you currently do". The answer was "Yes"!
So I opened up my own business. The cost to get started is not $200 dollars as was mentioned in the above post, it is less than 50. If you decide that you would like to have a sample of the products that could potentially replace what you pay other brand manufacturers for (which they profit off of by the way = free enterprise), then you can pay between 50 -70 more to get a sample pack of various products. The products work! So, the intial cost for me was less than $250.00. I became registered as a business owner, received sample products to see what my STORE had to offer others, I receive a montly newsletter highlighting what's new in the business, and I opted for a starter pack...my first step in becoming educated as a REAL business owner. A business owner no different than the guy who lays down 100's of thousands of dollars for any of the thriving franchise's available to someone with a large amount of investment captital. So that was the start.
PYRAMID SCHEME
In 1979 AMWAY was taken before the supreme court and the ruling was made that AMWAY was not a pyramid scheme. Why?
1. Nobody makes money off of another individual for them paying to get involved in a business venture. There are NO recruiting fees.
2. I have just as much of an opportunity to make as much money as I am willing to WORK for. I like that. Were I work now pays me for 40 hours regardless of how long or hard or smart I work. Yes eventually I will possibly earn the good graces of my boss and move up to just below him. But at that point I will need to find another job for more pay or take his job. That is also part of our Capatilistic system or the Free Enterpise system!
3. A business owner can not get paid a bonus if they don't have a certain amount of there business generated from outside sales (separte from "signing" peple up).
Pyramid Schemes are illegal and should be, but a system that rewards an individual based on the work they are willing to do is at the heart of what America represents. That alone is what separates us from the rest of the world that is not capatilistic or free enterprise based. I have found that people fear things they don't understand. So I opted to take a CHANCE on something that seemed good but sounded a little funny and I have a much better business sense about me now than I had a year ago! It has been and continues to me an eye opening experienc!
LITERATURE
The literature and tapes/cd's are not required but highly recommended (If you have never owned a business before how do you get there from here without some price being paid to educate yourself). I graduated from college with a Mechanial Engineering degree. Funny thing is, the university that I attended never guaranteed me a job when I graduated. I was young and really just wanted to get away from home so the reality of my career path choices didn't really matter. I have been out of college now for nearly 10 years and this month JAN 05, I will make my last 300.00 payment for my education. I wouldn't trade it for the world. Point: If you decide to make something of yourself then there will be a price to be paid.
REALITY
My price was not the few hundred dollars I laid down to start my own business, my price was learning who I really was inside! Are you afraid to stick your hand out to the person standing next to you in the line at the bank and saying "Hello! My name is _____!" No, you're not afraid, that's just not normal!...Is what some of you would say. Well I'm here to tell you that "NORMAL" is relative and if you get trapped in your own little world and don't learn to be objective, then plan on being where you are now, five, ten, forty years from now. That was a scary thought to me. All great business people from the past 100 years is who I have been forced to study in this business! What a crime! How could this happen? Is it because those 3% that are millionares know something we don't? Why do we allow our skeptiscm to say that anyone with REAL money got there by feeding off of the poor or less fortunate people around them. How absurd! You are where you are because of the choices you have made up until this very point. There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. You can't use logic to get yourself out of that one MAJOR fact.
I would love to write more, but I think I've said all I need to say...not to mention the fact that my lunch break is over. Enjoy your life! It's what you have chosen!
Yo billy, welcome my fellow engineer who posts on lunch break ;)
Amway was operated legally on 1979? don't know don't care. Does it now? Hmmm. Pl. read http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com . It might be, but FBI current top 10 most wanted wasn't there in 1979 either. See my point?
For the arguments sake, lets say it is legal. (I diagree with it though). Is it a smart business? Lets dicsuss.
Qustion for Billy or any IBO: Heard a term CORE? What are the expenses of being a core?
Ok Billy, here is your answer:
Price of Core is $1,000 / month.
How much a core have to ..uh dirty word...SELL to make that amount of $$$$? $3,333 at retail or around $7000 at IBO price.
According to pyramid maths, 80% at least ppl will ALWAYS be at the bottom. A diamond need many cores at the bottom to stay diamond. Almost ALL of these cores won't be making that much sales as hardly any of them got any professionl sales experience and all the crazy sales restriction Quixtar has put on. So what will happen?
At any given time, who LOS is losing money at total. Kinda zero sum game e.g. Casino.
I personally think that anyone can do a business like Quixtar. It is the same concept of McDonalds, you just don't have to pay $1 Million dollars to start your business.
Although anyone can do the business, it isn't for people who do not have dreams. I believe if you don't have a dream that you should not criticize others who do.
I was skeptical when me and my fiance started but it was because of my parents. They has tried Amway and it did not work for them. After they realized how much it meant to me they started supporting me.
This gives me something to look forward to in life and if you don't like it, LEAVE IT ALONE!
No Heather, its absolutely not the same concept as McDonalds. Not just any yahoo can start up a Mcdonalds and you can bet that there will be a return on your investment. If McDonalds operated like Quixtar, there would be a McDonalds on every street corner. The owners would consume a majority of the food themselves and teach others to do the same. How long do you think a McDonalds would stay open if thats how they did business? If you dont like hearing the truth about the company you are involved with then close your eyes and ears and go STP. Also, why dont you try and have an original thought instead of regurgitating tape speak from your upline. There is nothing you can say that hasnt been said before. Everybody has dreams Heather, you are not special. The only thing you have to look forward to is an empty bank account and a mountain of debt.
Heather,
I personally think that anyone can do a business like Quixtar. It is the same concept of McDonalds, you just don't have to pay $1 Million dollars to start your business.
Quixtar is nothing like McDonald's. McDonald's sells to actual outside customers; Quixtar sells mainly to its own "business owners". McDonald's tries to limit the number of franchises in an area; Quixtar has expand them without limit. In McDonald's everyone involved, including the people at the bottom, make a profit; in Quixtar, IBOs pay in to be involved. McDonald's pays minimum wage and up; the average Quixtar IBO's income is a mere fraction of that -- before expenses eat the tiny bit that was returned.
If you can't notice these huge differences and understand what they mean, you probably should be a bit less confident in your own business sense.
Although anyone can do the business, it isn't for people who do not have dreams. I believe if you don't have a dream that you should not criticize others who do.
In contrast, I believe in free speech, even for people without "dreams".
What does it mean if you're in an organization filled with people who have only "dreams"? It means none of them are achieving those dreams. It means you're fallen in with a bunch of unfulfilled people. It's the blind leading the blind.
Quixtar would have you believe anyone outside of it has no vision for the future. Don't be silly. People outside of Quixtar just don't think that vision will be achieved at $115 per month income that Quixtar pays the average active IBO.
Why should you?
One of the first things I tried to do when I was approached about Quixtar was determine whether you were more likely to become wealthy by being inside or outside it. I found you're hundreds of times more likely to get rich outside Quixtar.
Again, that should tell you something.
This gives me something to look forward to in life and if you don't like it, LEAVE IT ALONE!
Sorry, I'm going to warn people anyway. In case you hadn't noticed it, you don't get to control other people.
If you took up selling drugs, should the whole world call them good just so you can feel good about yourself, attempting to make yourself rich at others' expense?
No, sorry, that doesn't wash.
Of course, you have almost zero chance of becoming rich. It's not just me saying that, it's Quixtar's own stats -- see here. Everyone but the very top people make very little income for the effort. And the tiny percent who do make a bit of cash do so at great expense to many others.
It's a shame you won't listen or won't even do research to see if we're telling the truth. Experience can be a harsh teacher. Listen to people who have been through it and are trying to save you from making their mistakes.
If your life is so empty you have nothing but Quixtar to look forward to, perhaps you might think about your relationship with your creator, who offers you a much better deal.
I actually have a mentor visiting my house today at 7pm. However, I’m going to cancel the meeting and get myself out of this before I waste more time. From the very beginning I’ve noticed an almost cult mentality when going to these meetings. The funny thing is when you go to the meetings and listen to these people they do a great job of pulling you in. So much so, that when I’m in the meeting I fully 100% believe it’s possible. Maybe it’s because I was all hopped up on their XS drink, I just don’t know, but I do know it doesn’t let you think straight. I wish I had saved a can to print the correct stats but it is something like 4900% vitamin b12 for energy. There is a reason for 100% of your daily needs, and I would suggest not trying that product of theirs. All I know is once I take a step back and I am able to think rationally I doubt the whole system. I see what they wear, how they talk, how they lure people in, and it just screams STAY AWAY. At this point the only thing that may keep me in is to try and disenchant my friends who have been lured into this system. I hope at least to inform my friends who have not encountered it yet to stay away. You would see by visiting a meeting that independent thought is discouraged. That’s all I have to say about this issue.
Have any of you ever considered WHY major companies would be associated with Quixtar(such as partner stores) if it was all a big scam??? And more are getting involved monthly. I'm sure they have business analysts that research Quixtar before getting involved and I highly doubt it is through websites such as this.
Deb,
Have any of you ever considered WHY major companies would be associated with Quixtar(such as partner stores) if it was all a big scam???
Yes, because they will make money by selling their products to Quixtar's IBOs. That's perfectly obvious.
Now, what you don't seem to have considered is that their ability to make money has nothing to do with your ability to do so. You are the consumer. They are the supplier. They will make money. You? Not so likely.
Please learn to distinguish between those roles.
Again, my argument is that Quixtar is unethical and generally unprofitable -- for IBOs. It is not unprofitable for Quixtar, of course. They're guaranteed a profit.
Yeah bob, stay away. Like in Vegas they pump oxygen etc. to keep you awake and playing dice, XS is a similar deal. It has super extra Ginseng that fire you up.
I'm sure they have business analysts that research Quixtar before getting involved and I highly doubt it is through websites such as this.
That's funny! Those company do a legit business. A Quixtar IBO comes to their site via Quixtar, they sell him some product and they go away. Company has nothing to do with the 'scam' aspect. They are ok. Even if Quixtar is a scam, nothing will happen to their customer base.
Many nations or rebels working against America use American products, even American ammunition against each other and... on Americans. Get my point?
""Deb,
Have any of you ever considered WHY major companies would be associated with Quixtar(such as partner stores) if it was all a big scam???
Yes, because they will make money by selling their products to Quixtar's IBOs. That's perfectly obvious.
Now, what you don't seem to have considered is that their ability to make money has nothing to do with your ability to do so. You are the consumer. They are the supplier. They will make money. You? Not so likely.
Please learn to distinguish between those roles.
Again, my argument is that Quixtar is unethical and generally unprofitable -- for IBOs. It is not unprofitable for Quixtar, of course. They're guaranteed a profit.""
Tim, I notice one thing that you haven't brought up at this point, at least not from the posts I have read on this thread. Namely, that these companies, Amway/Quixstar/ProAlliance, are not only running a scam, but are using much the same tactics for recruitment and inspiring loyalty in those already recruited as a cult would. I have had some experience with Quixstar and others like it in my lifetime, and one thing that runs through all of them is the cult like atmosphere.
Notice that, much like a cult, Quixstar likes to avoid the messy details that might throw any kind of negative light on their practices. For instance, any time you go to one these meetings, and I was in one just last week unfortunatly, you are told how the products they are sell are God's gift to consumers. They are better than namebrand, cheaper than namebrand, and they are tested better than name brand. I just have to ask myself, when I hear this line of bull, "Why do people inherently mistrust advertising from big companies they see every day and can easily interact with, but when they get feed the same line from some obscure company like Quixstar then everything said must be true?". And I finally figured out why, its the entire sales pitch.
If someone came up to you on the street, or at your house, and tried the same pitch on you about what they were trying to sale, you would most likely brush them off as typical salesmen, but Quixstar doesn't use that tactic. Quixstar has figured out that if you can get people to sit down and listen to you for an hour or two by having them invite you into their home, or being invited by friends into someone elses home, they can get you to sit down and listen to them just out of plain ol' good manners. After all, if you invited someone into your home for something like this, it would be rude to ask them to leave before they had finished the pitch.
So, they devised a way to make sure people listen to them, but the most devious part is in what they sell to people once they have their attention. Quixstar, like any good cult type organization will do, has figured out something they can use to their advantage, namely worry. Just as cults play off of people's fears to recruit them, and then use those fears against people to keep them, Quixstar has found a worry or fear to play off of, and its a BIG one, namely, financial security. Sure, everyone wants to get rich, but if getting rich were as big a motivator as some like to play it up to be, then a lot more people would be staying up til 3am to watch those get rich quick infomercials. What drives people more than anything, and women are most susceptible to this, is financial security. Most people now have thousands of dollars in debt outside of house or car payments. They constantly worry about having enough money to keep up their lifestyle, and what they would like more than anything is enough money to take care of what they have, and maybe a bit on the side for some fun. So, what Quixstar promises isn't that they will make you a millionare. What they would have you believe is that by becoming an IBO, you too can eventually reach a level of financial security that you have have always dreamed of. This just plays better with people than telling them that you will make them a millionare, because more people are willing to believe that financial security is possible than are willing to believe that I can make a million dollars by following this business model.
Well, they have a sales pitch, but thats only half the battle. What they need is to make you really want to buy into this plan of theirs. How do they do that? By feeding people these lovely stories about other successful IBOs, by giving you half truths and avoiding any details that might hurt the sales pitch. I don't know about you, but I have never gotten any substantial details about anything at any of these meetings. What I get are "mentors" who offer virtually the same scripted pitch time after time, all with the same creepy, too positive to be sincere attitude. These are the true believers. At one time they were like you and me, but they bought the pitch hook line and sinker and now what to get others to buy it as strongly as they do. I get people like the friend you mentioned, who may not yet be true believers, but who never the less also have bought the sales pitch, and the true believers use these new inductees to try and snare some of their friends. The pitch sales alot better when you have someone people trust who either vouch for it or seem really excited about it. Of course, you shouldn't ever trust a friend when it comes to financial advice, just because they are your friend, but most people don't really think about it that much. Finally you get the literature, which basically regurgitates everything said by the presenter, except even more elaboratly with just as little real detail.
I know this won't fly with alot of the posters so far, because its obvious that some of them have bought into the program, and like any good cult they will defend the program, no matter how good the case against it. But despite that, the truth is that Quixstar has a message, and that they sell that message in much the same way any fringe cult would. They use many of the same tactics that cults use, and those they have ensnared end up just as brainwashed by the system as any cult follower does.
I just pray for all you out there who have fallen for this scam or one like it. The truth is, you are not going to become rich, you are not going to achieve your financial dreams, and no matter what you say now, in a few years you will come to realize what a scam the system is and regret how much you wasted on it.
You want to get rich? You want financial security? Then get out of Quixstar, and buy a Dave Ramsey book. The best way to get rich quick is to get rich slow, and the best way to become financially secure isn't in some pyramid scheme of a business model, but just plain old common sense, like you would have gotten from your grandmother or from the Bible. You can get rich, but not quick, and you can be financially secure, but you can't be financially secure when you are caught up in a scam like Quixstar, it just doesn't work.
Quixtar is a real legitimate business, I was in it. The problem is that it is a lot harder than they make it appear to do. Think about it: it's hard to get people to pay for all the items they sell that you can get for 10 cents on the dollar at your local walmart. I had 9 personally sponsored people, but had a hard time getting them to buy the product knowing they could buy vitamins for about $5 for a 3 month supply vs. $28 or more for a one month supply granted the walmart vitamins probably weren't quite as good of quality. I have recently found a company that has created a whole new category of product and you can't go to your walmart to get it. They were issued a patent on it and it's produced by WILD FLAVORS, the same company that produces Sobe, Capri Sun, and other functional health beverages. It has been a real blessing to many people as there is science to back up the results achieved by this. You can go to http://www.mangosteenexperiences.com to see personal testimonials and http://www.pubmed.gov and search xanthones to get the science on it. My personal site is http://www.fruitblessings.mymagicwand.com This is a fulfilling business as you get to help people with their health and don't have to really tell them about the business side of it because when they get results they tell others and it has a 30 day money back guarantee so anyone can try the product. Let me know if you have comments or suggestions on this. Brian
Quixtar is a real legitimate business, I was in it. The problem is that it is a lot harder than they make it appear to do. Think about it: it's hard to get people to pay for all the items they sell that you can get for 10 cents on the dollar at your local walmart. I had 9 personally sponsored people, but had a hard time getting them to buy the product knowing they could buy vitamins for about $5 for a 3 month supply vs. $28 or more for a one month supply granted the walmart vitamins probably weren't quite as good of quality. I have recently found a company that has created a whole new category of product and you can't go to your walmart to get it. They were issued a patent on it and it's produced by WILD FLAVORS, the same company that produces Sobe, Capri Sun, and other functional health beverages. It has been a real blessing to many people as there is science to back up the results achieved by this. You can go to http://www.mangosteenexperiences.com to see personal testimonials and http://www.pubmed.gov and search xanthones to get the science on it. My personal site is http://www.fruitblessings.mymagicwand.com This is a fulfilling business as you get to help people with their health and don't have to really tell them about the business side of it because when they get results they tell others and it has a 30 day money back guarantee so anyone can try the product. Let me know if you have comments or suggestions on this. Brian
Ah... Amway/Quixtar! The memories!
I've been a distributor/IBO for many years, not active for over 10 though I still purchase certain products regularly. My product loyalty was somewhat accidental. I had developed asthma and would spend nights sitting up struggling to breathe after having cleaned house. The Amway products don't trigger asthma attacks -- that was a real blessing for me.
The first function I attended was Free Enterprise, Dexter Yeager's annual self-congratulatory-athon. The first evening he didn't take the stage until 1:30 am. My upline was fully in his thrall and would not consider missing even one word. He rambled on for over 2 hours, most of it aimless and reeking with personal prejudice. No subsequent exposure to "Dex" altered that first impression. He displayed appalling ignorance of our democratic republic and it's processes and promoted the sort of devisive no-compromise tactics that have paralyzed our government.
No, the "business opportunity" is not represented accurately to prospects. The dreaded Amway word isn't mentioned and of course the creation of the Quixtar moniker (long after I became a distributor) helped to dispel some upfront objections due to many years of negative perceptions of Amway. This, in itself, is deceptive. No, they do not give an accurate picture of the costs and time commitment to make the big bucks. And even if those requirements are met it's not guaranteed -- not all who work hard succeed. That said, still a few do succeed. However, to be Diamond or even Emerald means that any other aspirations must remain unfulfilled. I am an artist. It's more than what I do -- it's who I am. I had to admit early on that I am NOT an Amway distributor first and foremost; it would never come before my art.
"The System" is Dexter Yeager's baby and it has been a major propellant for the DeVoss/Van Andel empire. The different organizations (Bill Britt, Dexter Yeager) create and market the motivational materials (tools) to be sold downline. They also set up and finance their own functions. The major Diamonds (Executive, Double, Triple, etc.) do so for their downlines. They invest the upfront expense and do profit from the whole operation. It is all part of the business model, though not what the new prospects see or need to see as it may never really be something they will need to handle. Functions are expensive. For function tickets, travel, accommodations, and meals I spent $500-$750 per function 10 years ago. It's probably more now. Major functions occur every quarter in addition to local functions. It gets expensive. All are "encouraged" to attend everything their upline promotes AND show the plan at least 15 times per month. Someone early in the thread mentioned that you can't do this and still have time for family. True. But, so the line goes, you sacrifice now to achieve financial freedom so you can "get free" to spend full time with your family. Obviously the motivational speeches must be directed to everyone, though a very tiny fraction will ever see tangible results.
I must say though that amid all the hype there were a few excellent speakers and I expanded my people/relationship skills as a result. Was it worth it? Yeah, maybe. I probably wouldn't have pursued a course of action that would have addressed those particular skill sets on my own otherwise, but expensive nonetheless.
What drove me out of active participation more than any other single thing was the heavy proselytizing that began (for me a couple years in). It was heavy-duty evangelical propagandizing. I was raised in a protestant denomination and have since gained insight into other approaches to God and enlightenment and know enough to realize that there is no one incontrovertable truth. Most of the tripe they were spouting would make the itinerant preacher of 2000 years ago cringe. It was so intolerant and rigid -- the antithesis of what Jesus taught... makes me wonder if any of them have even read the New Testament. Also, what did this have to do with business? Considering some of the troubling ethical lapses I'd seen, the convergence of religious zeal with a cult-like approach to business was alarming, to say the least. I told my upline that we would just have to agree to disagree where religion was concerned, but that merely intensified the assault. On that note I stopped attending all functions while openly and non-combatively stating my objections and concerns. Only one person in my upline has contacted me since and it was a rather tepid overture.
What I read in this thread from the newly converted IBOs is the same series of talking points being used many years ago. There isn't an original thought among them. It's all programed. I am by nature an iconoclast so I will instinctively resist attempts to program me. They claim that the system is based on research that shows that people are more inclined to listed to men, red ties project confidence and success, women should follow and support their husbands, yada, yada, yada. Dexter's message and system have not changed substantially in over 20 years yet the society has changed remarkably. The only place this model consistently works is among those who support and promote such backward thinking. I, in good conscience, could no longer participate.
For those who are true believers that this is their path to fulfillment I wish them well. It is not my path.
I just wanted to share my personal experience with Quixstar. My very best friend of 7 years joined and soon after that I started to see a drastic change in her. I really see a lot of the cult like behavior that other posters talk about. I have seen first hand the isolation from family and friends and the extreme "lovebombing" behaviors that others in her group display. She goes to her "mentor" for anything and everything. "Oh I need to ask Shawn about that", is what I hear from her daily. Not just questions about "the bussiness" but every day life. I am literally losing my best friend because I am seen as a "negative person". Any one ever tried to get their friend/family out of this cult? Help I need advice please. Thanks
Melissa,
I've posted a response to your comment here.
Best to you!
- Tim
Could someone please provide me with the Amway/Quixtar quarterly weekend conference (Q-12 distributor conference) schedule for the U.S. for 2005 and 2006?
I have searched the web and found nothing, is this coveted information? Why? Are they always at the same time of the year, when?
I'm interested in this information to determine if a distant relative who claimed to be out of Amway is still attending these conferences.
Is there anyway I could determine the dates of these quartely coferences?
Thanks
Every pyramid lines, known as LOS: Line of Sponsorship have their own seminar. Their websites are password protected. Depending on which pyramid line they're in, and in which state, dates will vary. Yeah same time of the year but different dates.
Wow Wow I Have built this Quixtar business since Feb of 2000. I was not in the Amway corporation I am amazed at how so many people with inacturate knowlege on what are actually rules and regulations with quixtar blame the person that showed them for giving them inacturate information. Or blame the person helping them for all these things, read the rules and regulations just like you would, getting in any other business for yourself. And take some of your own responsiblity. It's called if you are going to invest in a business read. You know what the problem is we have 1000's of people out there who actually have know business running and building there own business trying to figure out how to do it without the knowhow and a good mentor. I can take anyone who is willing to learn and a good student and teach them how to build this business yes its hard obviously too hard for some maybe. Not because they cant but because they dont't understand and choose to act like an employee not a business owner. Have most of you thought about doing what 95% of America has done up to this point. Retire on 1200 dollars a month from the government at ages 70 or more. It took me 2 years to start qualifying at the level of plantinum. My first full year at that level paid me 42000 buck a year. More than 95% of America goes to 4 years of college and makes 41000 a year. and they have to show up to work every day for 50 to 60 years to make it. I would rather choose the first and thats why there is so much controversy on this business either you figure that out and asctually build the business or you work the business whatever you might say is and fail. Just like if you went to college and failed and blamed your own failers on the teachers or other student or the school or lack of money after 25000 dollars invested and you quit cause you realize that getting that degree guarentees you only knowing how to work for someone else the rest of your life. Dont you understand who your working for thinks you are worth more than you do... All rules and regulations are available to all prospects and new people just like any corporation out there. This is a multi billion dollar company to know all the ins and and outs of it would give you a PHD is something. I have been a full time parents since the end of 2002 My wife finished her 4 years in the sign language field because of a scholarship required her to finish 4 years in the field after her graduation. And now we have enjoyed all of last year together. We have dozens of people in our businees hitting that level this year. The reason why not alot of people tell you how much they are making because the average person wouldn't understand. Most of america has no clue how to run and manage a potential multimillion dollar company like you are in the process of building with quixtar. Yes it costs money how much depends on if you get smart and are effective. Yes there are lots of stories of bad things. But there are lots of stories that are good ones too like mine. Those of us that figure out this business and become stay at home parents aren't mad looking for someone to tell. Where as all the mad ones find there pain feels much better to tell. Of cource I dont judge those of you personally that fail. I just wish you were in my group and I feel sorry that your financial freedom has been swept away because you dont believe in yourself. And didnt have either good parners in your support team or enough since to learn and listen and do what works. Not quit because your upline is still trying to figure out how to build it. Not quit because you get frustrated. Not quit because you don't believe it will work for someone like you. Thats life and you will all do the same things for the next 50 years at a job anyways. I heard once you will do the work of a millionaire whether you become one or not. I chose to listen and learn and have never regretted the choice I made. Quixtar has changed my life, Because I was willing to learn how to build it. And this so called have to buy to make money haha have to do 100 points 300 points read the regs. So much inacturate information because thats what you heard from someone who is still learning. You wont get out of life what you want or what you deserve only what you expect. Expect to fail you will expect others to fail they will. Choose to believe in yourself and believe in others and together we are invinsible at whatever we do this business or anything else we do. I wish you were on my team you would think differently about everything. Life is what you make of it. Quit letting it go by. Or you will end up like the rest of average society angry upset because life has you by the tail, Debt has you by the tail, Your boss has you by the tail. And there is no hope of getting out.ITS FUN TO BE FREE ANYONE THAT WANTS TO CAN. And what else are you offering to me thats better than that.
Why is it that so many pro-Quixtar voices on this blog...
(a) Are often incapable of using anything remotely resembling good spelling, grammar, or even just paragraph breaks?
(b) Repeatedly spout weird, cult-like mantras like "build this," "build it" and "Your boss has you by the tail."
(c) Say stupid things like "I am amazed at how so many people with inacturate knowlege..." but then proceed to ramble on without pointing out even a single inaccuracy in the article to which they're responding.
(d) Ask, although it has been answered over and over till I'm blue in the face: "And what else are you offering to me thats better than that."
Simple answer, Casey: ALMOST EVERYTHING. Quixtar IBOs make less than minimum wage, on average. That means people are likely to do much better elsewhere, including even minimum wage jobs. Star-struck IBOs challenge anyone to name a better opportunity. The simple answer is that just about EVERYTHING pays better: fry cook, bricklayer, retail manager, network engineer...
You finally made $42K? After how many expenses? Or didn't you deduct those? And after how many years of not making a profit at all? Or aren't you counting that in, either? And with how much help from your wife? And how many are beneath you, losing money to help you make that tiny, before-expenses profit?
And how much debt do you have?
I figure, since you're sharing numbers, you'd be happy to share all the numbers, right?
Its been roughly 4 years since I let go of the golden fleece.Or should I say....getting fleeced.
I bought the Amway/Quixtar lie from 1992-2002.
Its always entertaining reading the blogs of newbie IBOs.They defend the"biz" very steadfastly but give them time(hopefully not ten years) to realize that the business is simply not viable.Yes there are some great products and if you want to sell your butt off you can make some coin by selling them until you get tired of selling.
Before you newbies go spouting about how great Quixtar is and how much money is"possible" ...
PROVE IT! Then come back and show us.No,don't tell me about your upline who makes all this money.I want to hear about you.
I know all the catch phrases like"don't ever let anybody steal your dream","winners never quit and quitters never win",and blah blah,blah. I know because everytime someone tried to tell me what I am telling you I said the same thing!lol.
If I can give you one piece of heartfelt advice it would be to find some other business that you really have a calling for if its business you want to be in.I put my car restoration business on hold for ten years and man it never felt so good to be back welding and painting Mustangs,Triumphs and whatever!No more phone teams,meetings,contacting,meetings,books,meetings,conferences out of town,etc....
Before you get too in depth in Quixtar read "all" the stuff online not just what your upline says.They don't want you to see the negative because they already know the real truth.I was amazed to find out how much stuff was kept secret from us naive IBOs at the lower levels.
I wish I could take those ten years back and listen to what everyone was trying to tell me back then but if I can impact one person with my blog then at least it wasn't all in vain.
Tim
It seems like there are so many people who totally missed the point. Im in N21 in Australia and the bussiness education program has allowed me to successfully start an Oil company. This will earn more money than my Amway bussiness however I would not have it if i had not learned the basic bussiness skilles from selling amway. it is not about the products and amway. As robert kiosaki says it is about learning to think like someone in the B quadrant
(The Don's analogy: “Two people buy an exercise bike.. one looses weight and one doesn't... What is wrong with the bike????? Lets talk about the "bike", lets criticize the " Bike", Lets dedicate a web site to the problems with the bike.. :)”
Yeah but if 1000 people bought exercise bikes
and only 1-2 lost weight, that would be an issue, and that is a better comparison to quixtar than two people. If quixtar had a 50% success rate, there wouldn't be all these blogs that have critics of quixtar.
I'll say very little. I am in the process of researching quixtar. I was flattered by an offer made to me recently and I almost fell for it.
The one thing that they offer is an escape from fundamental bondages (do I have to name them), more time, and a lavish lifestyle. The BIG line was, " you'll only need to work 15-20 hours a week". I find that previous comments on this page call for the old roll up your sleeves, hit the streets, and make your dreams come true effort. That is mor ethat 15-20 hours a week to me. Meetings, rallys, and such things are also an undesirable for me... I don't want to go to those things! SO, does this or will this save you from those time and money bondages, or will it swap them with more cryptic and complicated ones? It's a pyramid scheme, no matter how you look at it... They sell it by showing you pictures of Tracey Eaton's house and cars, or so-and-so's baseball feild. Stop and think... How many folks are downline from them, and how long have they been participating? I care about my time, and I do all that I can to avoid bondages. I do not want to commit to buying products or to changing my lifestyle to support my own biz. I just want some easy money so I can fish more. I don't want to be a pimped pimp...
Folks,
If you made it work and you like it then that is wonderful. Sounds like you were cut out for it. But remember that spiritual law works both ways (I've noticed some pimps using some principals of confession), just remember that.
It amuses me when quixtarians say that my job is like a pyramid. Yeah so what? It doesn't prove that quixtar isn't a pyramid does it?
It proves they don't know what a "pyramid" is. The point about a "pyramid" isn't the shape, per se. It's that you PAY INTO and UP the pyramid, in the hope of getting one built beneath you. That's totally different than your J-O-B, where the pay goes DOWN the pyramid, and everybody, even the bottom person, ends up with more money than when they started.
Building A Pyramid
Back in the ancient days, the Egyptians built pyramids. It was an incredible feat when you think about it. Men without modern technology building monumental structures with muscle and a lot of sweat. Huge stones carved out perfectly and placed in precise positions. Even the engineering was something to marvel about. It’s an accomplishment that still fascinates people today. What’s even more amazing than the actual physical structure was the ability of the Pharoah to motivate the workers to dedicate their lives to such a project. Men often died before the pyramid was completed as it took many years to build one.
Fast forward to today. There are still pyramids. In the quixtar business, huge business organizational structures have been built, which have a hierarchy like a pyramid (Legal Pyramid). These pyramids typically have thousands of downline dedicated to the “cause”. (The cause being financial freedom). The downline are often called CORE IBOs. They loyally purchase products each month, and they will attend all meetings, listen to upline teaching on tapes and cds, travel any distance to show the plan or to attend a function, basically “doing whatever it takes”. The sad thing, is that doing whatever it takes is not cheap. Dedication to the teaching system can cost a little as less than a hundred dollars a month, but to dedicated hard core IBOs, the cost can be over $5000 a year, or several hundred dollars a month.
What’s truly amazing is how the “Upline” motivates the “Downline” to persist, even when monthly profit/loss does not improve. Even IBOs who lose money defend the business fiercely, and even blame themselves for failure. Some eventually succeed, but most do not.
Keep in mind folks, that generally there is only one Pharoah for each pyramid built. Can you become the next Pharoah or are you one of the slaves who will die before the pyramid is completed.
All you guys writing blogs on web sites need a life.... this is the FIRST time i have ever written anything online... its like we are in 2nd grade criticizing people what they do and who a kid likes and who they dont and going to the boys bathroom and writing on the bathroom walls..... if a guy is succesful in what he is doing either in quixtar or outside it is good for him or her and if a guy who isnt doing well in life doesnt need to come online and criticize other people.... its like criticizing your mom for having you as a son or a daughter if you are not successful... its like saying that i am 50 lbs overweight and i cannot lose weight BUT now if i wasnt born i wouldnt have gained weight! so its my moms fault!!!!..... guys who have no lives... instead of sitting down infront of a computer and criticizing something, go out and be the next Bill Gates or Bill Britt or Donald Trump and then talk... till you cannot show that you are sucessful in life yourself making a good couple million dollars a year dont criticize anyone who is or who has an oppourtunity who can.... Just because u dont believe it doesnt mean other people dont... It is proven that Microsoft has made the most number of multimillionars in this world and quixtar is #2.... if you people know a better way then maybe u people need to get into it and become multi millionares instead of sitting down and wasting your time and your life posting negative stuff online and making $50,000 a year after 4 yrs of college and acting like you guys dont need more money than that...
Awww... how touching! "Gagan" is really, really worried about the fact I spend about 15 minutes each week writing about Quixtar.
Meanwhile, your average active Quixtar drone spends a huge portion of their week (ten hours or more) helping themselves lose money. Does Gagan care about that? Does he show up at Quixtar meetings and scream at everyone to "get a life"?
Suddenly, he's not so concerned about wasted time!
He's also pushing a scam he's apparently never bothered to even research...
It is proven that Microsoft has made the most number of multimillionars in this world and quixtar is #2...
Okay, Gagan, think about what you just said:
First, nobody knows how many Quixtar millionares there are, so that statistic is pure bunk. Quixtar has no idea, nor do the QBOs.
Next, do the math: Microsoft produced about 4,000 millionaires. At any given time, Quixtar has about 1 million active IBOs. About half of those drop each year (more actually, but I'm being charitable).
That means, over 10 years (Amway's been going over three times that long, but I'm being charitable) that's about 5 million Quixtar IBOs.
So do the math: 4,000/5,000,000 = 0.08% millionaires! At most!
That's PATHETIC, Gagan! About 6% of US families are millionaires, and you come here telling me that less that 0.08% of Quixtar families are? So my odds will be 7,500 LOWER of being a millionaire inside Quixtar than outside of it?
You IBOs come by here, criticizing everyone else, (and hilariously, calling everyone else "negative"!), trying to tell everyone else what not to say and what not to do, telling everyone else how to run their own "business", if you will, and you can't even do a few basic calculations before sinking your life into some "system" people tell you to do?
if you people know a better way then maybe u people need to get into it...
There IS a better way. Quixtar pays LESS than minimum wage, on average -- even less when expenses are deducted!
So a "better way" is to do ANYTHING else. At least then you'll be making money! How dense do you have to be to take a job that will pay you less than minimum wage?
But Quixtar IBOs, without doing even a few basic calculations, do this all the time, and then run around giving everone else orders on how to run their lives.
It would be laughable if it weren't so tragic.
Gagan, if you care for yourself at all, you'll do some basic research, and get out as soon as you can. Think, man! Think! You yourself just told me the odds of being a millionaire in Quixtar are incredibly low.
Will you even listen to your own purported stats?
Tim,
It's obvious that Gagan has sipped the purple kool aid already. You can tell by the statement about "bathroom walls". And yeah spending 15-30 minutes a week writing stuff on a blog that helps people is more productive than wasting time attending endless amounts of meetings that result in a smaller bank account balance.
Gagan doesn't realize that when he's at a function with thoussands of IBOs, the only ones making any money are the ones speaking from stage. And guess what, month after month, year after year it's the same guys on stage, but the audience keeps changing.
What's even more amazing is that people follow upline advice to a T, yet they blame themselves for failure. Amazing!
Keep up the great work Tim!
Keep up the great work Tim!
Tim? I'll be dead honest here, "Joe", it is, frankly, all the people who post here (and elsewhere) -- especially commenters like Imran, yourself, MLMScam, and a number of others who, I think, are making a real difference -- and providing a lot of the value here, too, by being around and offering different arguments, and sharing the load of answering all the questions.
I'm sincerely grateful.
The other day, when I was reading some of this over again, I remembered something I'd forgotten: When I was first looking into Quixtar, I came across a thread a bit like this one, on one of the major Q-related sites, and, fascinated, spent several hours reading the conversation.
What struck me was the sincerity of the person running the site, and they way they seemed to be allowing *anyone* to post counter-arguments. By the time I was done, I noticed that most the IBOs had very bad arguments which had been answered, with no counter-refutation.
It was one of the formative moments where I started to know for sure (which I had already suspected) that Quixtar was indeed a harmful thing.
I never intended to do anything like that here. I just wanted to post a few observations and reservations, so that others could hear those opinions without needing to do all the hard thinking I had to do.
But I'm amazed at the continuous popularity of these few Quixtar-related threads.
Thanks, everyone. Including you IBOs.
I wish you *all* well.
God bless.
Thanks Tim!
I post because I was in the business and I saw so many people hurt while chasing the "dreams".
Upline "advised" people to do whatever it took to buy that extra tape, get to that function. I saw a couple lose their home because they skipped some payments in order to remain "core".
Sure, tools are optional but this couple's upline was a close and trusted friend who would "never intentionally" lead they astray.
For new prospects of quixtar, please research for yourself carefully. If the presenters tell you to avoid speaking to "negative" people about quixtar, that should be a red flag for you. You should always research before you sign up for anything. Also verify income claims.
Anyways, looking forward to posting here more often. Thanks Tim!
I'm going to make this short and sweet because my daughter has just gone to bed and I've got school work to do. My husband, bless his sweet heart, signed us up for Quixtar a few months ago to help a friend out. We did some research prior to signing up and his friend came over to talk to us a few times. Neither of us was impressed, but my husband did a friend a favor and signed us up anyway. Most of the products, and I mean like over 90%, were over priced. And I'm not talking about a few dollars. I found the exact same items online with little effort for $10+ dollars cheaper.
Another thing, their whole PV system which they use to calculate "commission" has absolutely no noticeable structure. We were told that a sale of $250 is the equivalent of 100PV (which is the point you have to be at to earn anything). Bull!!! I began playing around and looking at the PV of different products and found the PV allocation was sporadic as hell. You'd think a $500 television would put you over 100 PV...not!!! Their system may not be a scam but it is a very unethical way of conducting business.
The one product that spiked our interest was their gift albums... a cute little booklet of products that recipient could choose from. We liked the novelty of the idea and thought we would focus on that and have a little fun. Not only are the items way (and I mean way) overpriced but you end up paying a hefty sum in taxes and pre-shipping costs. So a $20 album will end up costing you close to $35. Needless to say we dropped the entire thing after our initial investment. We chalked it up as a lesson learned and, even better, we got to witness the true character of a so-called friend. That in itself was worth the investment.
We could not in good conscious peddle this off to people, let alone friends and family. I was adamant about not attending any meetings because I have a life OR giving out the names of people so that they could be contacted about a "business opportunity". I ruffled a few feathers when I made the comment that I would absolutely not give out the names of any contacts until I have proven to myself that money could actually be made. I'm sure there are people in Quixtar making money off of good-hearted people like my husband, naive people, and foolish people. You could also make money by impersonating a blind homeless person and standing on a busy corner... but that doesn't make it right. Where are the ethics in business these days?
Oh well, to each his own. My question to you, Tim, is who should be help responsible? It's like the Mooby scene in the movie Dogma where the execs get shot up in the board room... who should be held responsible? The consumers for "worshiping" the company, the execs for portraying it in the manner they did, or the angels for killing almost everyone?
This has been fascinating reading - so much so that I'm way past my bedtime!
Tim, I sincerely have to congratulate you on your fine sentence structures, your clear thinking and reasoned, intelligent arguments. Out of all the postings on this site, I enjoyed reading yours the most.
It's been such a long series of postings that I've mostly forgotten who made which points, but several things occurred to me to mention.
(Firstly, some background info on me - I was educated in Mechanical Engineering (one of three girls out of 100 course attendees) and subsequently went on to do three years' research into business process modelling (mostly in Engineering processes, but the concepts could be applied to any process of activity, including politics, education, religion, etc, etc).
I then did seven years in "sales" for an Apple Authorised Reseller and Service Provider - I learned (not very well) what traditional sales methods are about, and also what sits better with me - rather than manipulate people into buying what one wants to sell them, instead find out their requirements, see if one can meet those requirements (if not, being honest about that and pointing the client in a more suitable direction) and then let the client make up their own mind in their time frame if they wish to proceed - maybe this is too wishywashy an approach, but it's how I like to be "sold" to!.
I always knew I did not want to be a traditional "employee" for the rest of my life - having someone tell me what I am worth, dictating when I can take my holidays, when I must start work, when I must finish work, the ethics by which that work should be carried out - all these things rankled, and I felt drawn towards a career as a "management consultant" (but NOT the sort that charges you to tell you the time; instead, one who enquires as to your circumstances, re-structures that information into more digestible format and gain originators' agreement of content of format so that they (the originators) can make informed decisions themselves about what to change and what to keep about their circumstances). Sorry, that was rather a long sentence - my English language may be good, but I can ramble with the best of them :-).
Anyway, as part of my sales job, I represented the company at weekly local business network meetings for seven years, and eventually was chosen to host the meetings for the standard period of 6 months. I also (because of my huge fear of public speaking) joined a local (men's!) speakers club, precisely to dispel that fear and improve my skills.)
I was approached...(no, it never happened that way for me - I had had a crisis of self-confidence after losing my research post (I was told to go and get more experience of life before coming back to the process modelling, which is why I ended up in sales..!), and, being temporarily unemployed, responded to an advert in the local shop window, which was looking for people who wanted part-time or full-time income from a business....
...apparently, I was the ONLY person who rang the number given!
The guy who showed me the Amway business plan came across as very pushy and desperate, which naturally made me resist signing up. However, I'm extremely curious, so agreed to go to a meeting, which happened to be a big seminar rally some three hours' drive away. What happened there was astonishing - like one person posted earlier, there were about 2000 people all inanely grinning and being incredibly nice - it made me very suspicious, because it seemed so false- they did not know me, so why were they all being so nice? (When I was younger, my nickname was "smiler", because..... But I had long since learned that most people walk down the street with their head down and a miserable face - to meet SO many smiling faces in one place was a shock to the system!)
When the first speaker came onto the stage, everyone else stood up and clapped and cheered - I thought - I don't know who this person is, or why I should react to them in such an efferverscent way, so I stubbornly (and embarrassedly, because people kept looking at me as if I was an alien) remained seated with my arms folded.
However, by the end of their talk, I did conclude that they had made some good points, and clapped when they left the stage.
I still would not stand up for any of the speakers, but for each of them I felt warmer towards them after they had spoken.
Now, I have read quite a bit about "brainwashing" and Amway being a cult, and that these meetings fire people up artificially, and, not being as resistant to such things as Tim so impressively is, maybe I was being brainwashed. But then again, maybe my mind has sufficient perspicacity to judge the true worth of a situation, and I did not deem myself brainwashed when I clapped the speakers after they had spoken - I simply felt they had said some interesting things, in an interesting fashion, and I politely was respecting that.
I'm a bit of a strange one, because I went to every single meeting for 6 months, while I was trying to decide if this business really was what it claimed to be and whether I wanted to be involved. I never researched it with other bodies, because I had no money to buy the Dunn & Bradstreet report (they are a business credit reference agency). I agree I could have contacted the DSA (Direct Selling Association), but again, I was worried that information would have cost me money I didn't have - I didn't disagree with the principle of paying for such information, just that I was too focussed on my lack of money to consider doing it.
I looked long and hard at various angles, trying to find the "catch" that my insides were warning me must be there somewhere - why else were they so keen to recruit me, if it was not to profit from my being involved?
Eventually, my fears abated long enough for me to actually sign up and get sponsored, but (whether this is down to the way the business is conducted/communicated or down to my then inability to get organised and actually choose a goal I could believe in) my belief in myself and my belief in this business remained low, in spite of attending meetings (and even "doing" a bit of business activity, like having some home meetings, making a list, inviting people, sweating with fear, showing the plan, (forgetting to follow up, or should that be - too afraid to hear the "no" response and therefore subconsciously avoiding any reference to follow up??)).
However, I have to say, my belief in the concepts behind this business has risen, the more I have seen and the more I have listened and read. I've been to about 500 Open meetings (where the business plan is shown in a hotel) and about 25 Weekend Seminars and 12 Free Enterprise Weekends (those weekend seminars held abroad where many countries get together).
This probably qualifies me as "mad" !
Especially as you will ask - what success have I had? And what a pertinent question that is - it is a constant anxious complaint/warning from my father, and now from my brother-in-law (one an ex-civil servant, the other a government economist!)
The actual answer is - very little! I have definitely made a loss to date, financially. (However, people from all walks of life comment positively on my good attitude, and I attribute a lot of that to the exposure I have had from some amazing and impressive individuals within the Network 21 organisation).
And yet, whereas it would be expected for me to be unhappy about this state of affairs (the financial loss), and my judgement quite rightly questioned, I actually feel this is fair!
You see, I KNOW the exact amount of WORK I have put into this business, and I would have been fired hundreds of times over if I had been an employee. The fact that I keep pursuing my idea of my future success is maybe what others would question - I always rationalise, that, WHEN I have put in the work I am told I need to do, if the results then DON'T happen, I will indeed lose heart. (More of that, later). However, until that point, I have learned too much to "dis" myself if I am not being fair.
(Besides which, if these meetings are considered to be the equivalent of an Amway "degree", then why would I expect to graduate in profit? Does any student??)
Maybe my brainwashing has been "successful", but I think I have enough (small) intellect to rationalise what has been happening to me, and these are some points I would like to raise:
Firstly, I saw my sponsor "blossom" as a person, the more books he read and the more tapes he listened to. He stopped being so pushy, began to appear (and I genuinely believe became so inside, not just a front) more caring and more relaxed and more articulate and more confident.
Whether or not this particular type of business has merits in any other facet, I think it truly has the capacity to improve (in all the senses) the way a person views themselves IF they actually try the AMO (Amway Motivational Organisation)'s tools. And I mean, try, over a period of at least 6 months, with intent. Sure, the first time I heard a tape, I was not impressed, because the accent was strange, and I did not identify with the passion or information contained therein. But things that appear bad may not necessarily be so - it just takes some insight into the background aspects to put the information into context.
(And it is context that seems to be the most important ingredient which is either present or missing from many of the postings.
Sure, I cannot claim to know it all, because I haven't done it all, but I do know that I do know quite a lot, because I have studied it from the inside for a long while.)
So, if nothing else happens, it is very likely that people will gain more confidence in (and almost inevitably more ability in) their personal skills, as a result of being INVOLVED with this business (as opposed to listening to two tapes, attending one or two meetings, and deciding it is not for them - it is unlikely much, if any, benefit will be gained by that individual from such a small exposure).
Secondly, I tend to agree with many of the negative things said about how people who are already distributors deal with the people they are trying to recruit - I've seen it done, I've had it done to me, and sadly I've done it a couple of times to others - i.e. been less than upfront about the name of the business, or what can be realistically expected, etc etc. (from my point of view, it was because I was embarrassed about the perceived collective view of Amway, and I didn't know how to handle the almost inevitable criticism - perhaps because I was not entirely convinced myself, eh?).
My insides have always baulked at this aspect of the business: instinctively I realised what some people, including you, Tim, have so eloquently said: any business which is not forthright, open and honest is not moral/ethical, and therefore not worth having, or being involved with, no matter how many supposed "benefits" it purports to give.
All I can say on this score is: in the UK we have different systems to the US, and I have been involved long enough to have seen how these support systems have migrated, from International Support Systems (I.S.S.), to (something I've forgotten) to Network 21 (N21). I've also sat in on the home meeting of another support system entirely (a guy I was prospecting and inviting told me he had already been approached by a good friend of his, to which I replied he should join his friend rather than me, because that is what I would want others to do with friends of mine they might prospect...he kindly invited me to his meeting, and, because I am always curious, I went, pretending to be a prospect, although afterwards I did 'fess up and did my best to promote his friend's business to the other prospects there, as the honourable thing to do).
I've also been approached to join, and therefore investigated, several other multi-level marketing businesses, and I actually joined one (Forever Living Products, thinking that I could run the two concurrently, and those prospects that didn't like one might like the other instead! I've since learned that a divided focus is worse than no focus at all - people don't know which one you stand for, and therefore choose neither!)
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I've seen several versions of the training (I also had access, through my separated husband, to a Jody Victor tape, who is downline from Dexter Yeager - the tape would terrify a novice with its hardline attitude - however, with the much exposure I have had since, I understand a lot more of the subtleties stated on the tape, even though those issues come across in a very strong way, I get why they are there) and I can readily see how so many people can be put off/disillusioned by such hard-nosed attitudes as obviously do exist out there. I too would have nothing to do with an organisation that mixes religion with business, or tries to force me /coerce me into certain behaviours through the fear card.
To my mind that is not business, it is a cult. I also think it is totally wrong to play people with the "you're stupid if you don't do this business" card - as you have so well stated, Tim, we should all be FREE to make up our minds. Sadly, because this is a business of "business owners" as opposed to "business employees", the people who get involved should be restrained as to what they can do and say, ethically as well as legally, but policing it is not so easy - they can't be fired!
However, in the UK, we are strongly urged as Amway distributors by the Network 21 support system to follow the rules, to abide by all the legal requirements, to promote the business honestly and ethically and encourage all those who are interested in the business to do the same.
I suppose I began to change my attitude to the business at the time when I was getting very irritated with the speakers for "talking the good talk" when so many indicators said otherwise, and finally one Diamond in the UK, who is a practicing psychologist by chosen profession (although he retired from his job, he continues to treat troubled children, because he feels it is a worthwhile endeavour), stood up on stage (just at the time when Network 21 formed an UK arm to merge with the existing UK training system) and admitted we are all being brainwashed! Finally, I said to myself, someone who is prepared to admit the truth of it.
Taken out of context, that one statement may be enough to make many fence-sitters vanish. And understandably so.
My take on it is this: every day the papers and news are promoting all the misery and pain we inflict on each other - while it is not sensible to ignore this (we can all make a difference, as long as we know what we are making a difference to!), it has damaging effects on our hope for the future.
And hope is such a powerful thing. Yet so inexorably eroded by the minutiae of daily bad news. If we have something which equally frequently reminds us of all the heroic feats and inspiring activities of which we are all capable, is it so awful to provide that stimulus in a package which we call continual self-development? I think not. (Provided, of course, that we continually examine the actuality of the content, and the context, for blurring of intent towards less honourable goals, such as the control of the populace (I'm in favour of anarchy, I just haven't figured out how society will be able to function that way! :-) ).
One person in a posting above complained about the PV allocation - again, I can't claim to be absolutely expert, but, from what I do know, and from my years of dealing with suppliers and customers in a hardware sales business, it seems reasonable to expect that all businesses have a coreline of products or services which provide the biggest profit margins (usually those over which we have the most control, i.e. if we make the product in-house, or if WE provide the service, the price we charge has more negotiable room than if we buy in the product or service to sell on).
Therefore, my understanding of her complaint, about claimed PV versus actual PV, is that products MADE by the Amway Corporation will have higher PV levels associated with them, than third-party products which Amway have negotiated PV deals with the manufacturers. (Don't forget, Amway pay distributors based on the volume of PV sold - if we sell only products from manufacturer X, then Amway has very little margin with which to pay us our bonuses, so consequently Amway will attach much smaller PV levels to the products made by X. Does that make sense?)
Coming back to the issue of transparency with respect to earnings claims, again, I agree, very little if any evidence is shown to support these claims from the bigger pins. (However, as I pointed out to my mum, when she cautioned that she thought all the Diamonds in the Profiles book, with their photos of swish clothes, diamond rings, big houses and fast cars, were simply actors pretending to be rich! - I love that one, because, having observed many of said Diamonds over a significant period of time, I realise that if they WERE renting everything to pretend, they would have to spend so much money on these frequent rentals that they would have to be earning Diamond income just to pull off such a scam!)
I aim to be one [successful distributor] who ALWAYS shows bank statements upon request.
[And, yes, sadly, I completely realise that this posting makes me look naiive and unachieving, and many people will think I simply have not got what goes on. Part of me rationalises that my lack of effort with a business that has this much potential is because some part of me is scared as to whether it is real (yet - how pathetic - just go do it, Colette, and then you'll know) but perhaps more scared of NOT transmitting behaviours and attitudes that I have heard about or experienced, so that MY business starts off and ends up being respected as an honourable one, where never does someone accuse me of misrepresenting anything or hiding figures or bullying someone to do something which their internal metric refutes. Also, I DO have a huge amount of stuff to organise, and, being a hopeless perfectionist, I want to get it right... how much of my life have I wasted so far with projecting how I WILL do things? in my defence, though, I have experienced two redundancies and two intense relationship break-ups (one my marriage) and a death in the family, all in the last few years, and the emotions from such experiences are only just now subsiding to the point where I can function again).
Surely, as with ANY endeavour, there are right ways and wrong ways to conduct ourselves, and it may not be the endeavour so much as the people who practice it that cause concern. We can all commit to being as open and honest about this business, warts and all, because I believe it has enough redeeming features IF DONE PROPERLY to overcome those, quite hefty, negatives out there.
I truly do feel for all those who have suffered at the hands of hard Amway "nuts" - it is not my modus operandi, and at least one of my friends tells me I'll never succeed at this business because I am too "nice"! However, when I finally succeed at organising my mess (you would not believe how much an excessive hoarder can acquire of life mementoes!), I believe that this is a business that CAN be operated with integrity and goodness, without hurting anyone.
Which leads me to your original point, Tim, of the ethicality (is there such a word? please forgive me, it's past 2:30am on an already tired head...) of a multi-level marketing business i.e. is it inevitable that there will always be casualties?
I have to say honestly, if the business is conducted with the ethics I've seen in our UK leadership, then NO is the answer. Obviously, some of the stories I've heard, from Amway old in the UK or even today in the USA, scare me, with how different a protrayal the same business can have, when handled by different people with different training systems and guiding morals.
What we are being taught is how to START the business in such a fashion that the initial costs (£28 to register, for which there is a monthly (occasionally bi-monthly) magazine of events and product info, a huge merchandising guide that covers the contents, application and demonstration of ALL of Amway's own product lines (oh yes, that reminds me, someone above commented bitterly about the lack of evidence for the 1,000,000's of products... from what I've seen of our European website, not only are all the 1000's of Amway's own lines listed, but that 1,000,000 includes all reference to the third-party products which, when bought through the Amway website, attract a points value which amounts to cashback, depending on the volume purchased - a system similar to most petrol stations and shopping centres worldwide, no?), anyway, also included in the registration price is the legal ability to resell Amway's products (which Amway pay all of the research, development, manufacture and packaging for) and any third-party products (which Amway negotiate margin deals with the third-party suppliers, plus all trade agreements worldwide, all governmental regulatory issues, etc), plus the use of Amway's website (which they pay to have designed and hosted and e-commerced), with which we can buy products for our own use, to resell to others, and through which we can check our virtual office to see our business statistics. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these issues)
That seems like quite a good deal!
It also costs £18.50 to continue membership of the distributor network for every subsequent year of operation.
Hey, look at that - I got beautifully side-tracked - I was saying, we are being taught to START a business in such a way as to have it self-financing almost immediately - it is a sad fact that the vast majority of Amway distributors DO NOT DO THIS, and therefore they cannot teach their downline, which means many many people are left with the impression that huge costs for training and products and meetings will leave them hugely out of pocket. It is an issue that we in the UK are trying hard to address.
Obviously, if a fledgeling (spelling?) business can be made self-financing, it can be duplicated and then everyone succeeds (and, just as importantly, no-one loses).
One aspect that, rightly, concerned you, Tim, was this business of the lowest points of the "pyramid" being left stuck with no potential for growth and thus income, should the market saturate.
I agree that this is unethical as a concept.
Again, I could be completely wrong, but a) I've seen too much to think I am wrong, b) when I've done it, I'll be glad to confirm if this comes right in reality:
My understanding is that this strange business concept is all about empowering people to create assets, i.e. business that provides passive income streams - income that you work for (once) and continue to receive, even when the work for it has stopped.
It's not an original concept - actors, painters and musicians have been doing it for centuries - part of the problem with this has been that some of the individuals who have created such passive income flows have not spent the money wisely, or, indeed, have overspent, and therefore need to continue to work (or, in some cases, struggle, publicly!) to recapture, or re-create such income. Then people may judge such means of generating income as inherently insecure.
Another aspect which presents problems with passive income streams from art (music, acting, painting, etc), is that the individual with the talent is not always in control of all the aspects of the money-making deals (in fact, rarely so), such that "other" organisations end up taking what is viewed as too large a cut.
Natural to be careful of that.
In this business, the essential intent is to set up a large and continuously purchasing group of consumers, whose purchases generate passive income streams for those who have created the possibility for those purchases to occur (this seems a fair compensation, providing that all parties benefit)
I.e. if I buy £100 per month every month for the rest of my life, the company whose products I am purchasing will not be very busy, and will probably go out of business. But if I point many consumers in the direction of that manufacturer, and EACH client gets a satisfactory outcome (cheaper products, or a small rebate), the manufacturer will have much bigger volumes to manufacture, which, through economies of scale and through centralised distribution and localised marketing, will mean money is available to rebate to me in direct proportion to the amount of volume of sales I facilitate to happen.
The benefit of the multi-level marketing system is that everyone is their own boss, and the downside of the multi-level marketing system is that everyone is their own boss! How to organise this complex set-up such that fairness is on offer (it should prevail, but often doesn't, simply due to the individuals involved, or due to the ethics woven into a particular training system) has been the continuous headache since this industry has launched.
I agree that many of the complaints listed above in the postings do happen - if you were to set up a business where everyone could make as much money as they wanted to work for, how would YOU ensure the rules were fair and the ethos respectfully conducted, without constraining the earning ceiling or the individual's right to express their personality?
I'm sorry to preach, I'm sure you knew that anyway, it's just that often this understanding gets lost amongst the emotions of running a business of this nature, where one has to suddenly learn how to market by word-of-mouth, sell confidently, manage paperwork and juggle business finances etc.
It's happened to me too, where I get so concerned with the skills I should have to run this business successfully, that I can forget why it is structured the way it is.
I used to think, as many many people seem to, that in order for me to succeed I will have to "take advantage" of the goodwill of my friends and family and, eventually, strangers that I coerce into buying from me. It's only when one particularly enlightened colleague of mine explained that, when done properly, if everyone benefits at their own level, I get to benefit at a higher level also. i.e. we have to help others to gain a benefit from the transaction to have any hope at all of this becoming a long-term income provider (and without the long-term, the passive income cannot exist, which is why it is so important to treat people properly, and with respect, clarity of information, and appropriate distance).
It astonished me to find out that, NO MATTER WHEN people join this business, EACH individual can decide to make the business a success for them, simply by pointing MORE people towards the manufacturer. This explains how someone can be "IN" this business and make no money for a long time, while someone new, who joins a long time later and a lot lower in the "pyramid" can actually make a lot more money than the first person.
It would make good research to look more closely at Rich De Vos and Jay Van Andel (the two friends who set up the Amway Corporation) to find out what they intended to achieve with this business structure, and how it actually works.
I totally agree that just meeting "big mouths" at functions does nothing to inspire confidence in the structure of the business, and yet THEY are not the business - they are just (good or notsogood) practitioners of it, and, as we know, people come in all shapes and sizes, and the best ones are not always those that shout the loudest!
What I'm trying to say (badly, probably) is that it IS possible for each participant in the system to get a deal that benefits them, and that those who get "most" out of it have just HELPED more individuals to benefit, instead of having TAKEN from the most individuals.
It makes sense that, if a person just wants to buy the products retail because they like them, or they feel the products are good value for money, those people should be free to do so, without being pressurised into "doing more".
Equally, if a person wants to generate a SMALL income stream (which is not really passive, as they have to service clients etc), they can do so, (by servicing a few WILLING clients or by buying the products wholesale and helping a few other people to do the same), they should be helped to do just that, and not ridiculed for not wanting to be a millionaire!
In the past, I have seen exactly the criticisms mentioned in earlier postings happen - people are told there is no other way to get rich, people are goaded into wanting "more", people are frightened into staying by being labelled a "loser" if they quit.
I don't agree with any of these tactics, and think that maybe while my mind has been trying to rationalise if it's possible to do this business without behaving so, I have simply stood still.
Sure, I've acquired a fantastic "degree" at the Amway University, and I know probably more than any other non-achiever!! (Not something to be proud of, but, well, at least I can talk with confidence about the concepts, even though the actualities are missing.)
Still, one thing I've learned is that the answer to "how much have you made?" is complex. (I also suspect it is dodged, because of the "if you knew the actual amount, you would be disheartened" view that most fake-it-til-you-make-ers hold.)
However, if they were to answer (which I shall be doing myself shortly): "I've made £x to date as initial payments, with a potential £y to come, which is a variable, because we don't know when £y will commence, or how big it will grow, or how long I'll receive it for", plus bank statements to confirm the £x, that would be more reassuring, wouldn't it?
Obviously, the initial income is easily calculated - it's the profit made by the transactions done that month - the equivalent to an employee's salary. What every employee will not intuitively understand, though (and every investor will), is that there is a return on investment that is the real income - the long-term, repeated income which is the passive earnings generated by assets - Robert Kiyosaki has gone a long way to educate people about this, through his many books, such as Rich Dad Poor Dad, and CashFlow Quadrant, as well as a mind-blowing board game CashFlow 101.
When these concepts are understood, the whole purpose of setting up a multi-level marketing business is much better understood, and then it comes down to how we introduce, communicate, train and support people who are looking for something more, even if they don't entirely know what form that "more" takes.
In the UK, with Network 21 we are taught often that we are looking for "lookers", and to love and support people who don't want much, but to work with those who want to work themselves. This seems fair to me, does it seem fair to you, or am I missing something?
Obviously those who want to build significant passive incomes are hepled and encouraged every step of the way, and, maybe because one never knows who is nurturing a private desire to take that next step, some of the training may seem too gung ho and full on for those who just want small outcomes. Again, I can't comment about how things are done in US - I am sure there are those whose actions are questionable, and they spoil it for many, by putting people off the genuine research of the better organisations, but equally, I am sure that SOME of the people developing an Amway business are doing so with the right concern for those below them, and the right ethics and morals. In my observations, such people have been too busy helping others to bother trawling websites looking for gripers to show an alternative viewpoint to.
Anyway, back to the point (it is now 3:33am (ooer, tricky number? nope, don't believe all that rubbish!)) - if we want to have a business that is run ethically and honestly, while I completely agree that the training and support system, and the people supposedly helping you, need to demonstrate good ethics and advice and transparency, we are all capable of deciding that WE will operate our businesses well, and that all those who follow us will therefore benefit (I agree, easier said than done if the support system is gung ho and too hard-nosed, but then, perhaps because I know it best, I recommend researching the components of the Network 21 system worldwide - to date (and I HAVE attended lots of their meetings after all!!) I have been very impressed with nearly all of what they do, and, perhaps more importantly, with their concern to keep careful check on the process so that it evolves and grows with new ideas and new information and viewpoints.)
One last point, Tim (and maybe you don't read this blog anymore, in which case I'll try to email you directly, as your capacity for clear unbiased thinking interests me greatly), is about statistics.
I've long had a healthy suspicion of statistics (partly because I don't really understand them, and partly because I don't trust those who are using them to have been thorough enough with the data compiling or the data enquiry!) - from those statistics I can remember, (and I unfortunately can only quote qualitatively, not quantitatively), the vast majority (and I believe we are talking around 70% here?) of people who sign up to become an Amway distributor DO NOTHING - buy not one product, go to not one meeting, sign up not one downline.
However, (and, again, apologies, I could be mistaken here) these people are still included in the figures of who "makes" it in Amway - obviously, if 70% do nothing, the result achieved by the remaining 30% will seem paltry when averaged out. Again, these figures could be quite different, but the concept remains - people who do nothing are being lumped with people who do do something, and consequently it looks like the chances of any new person are incredibly remote.
Another factor with people and statistics - statistics take no account for character! With a pack of cards - fair enough, we know in advance what the contents are, and we can then make statistical predictions on future cards based on past performance and what we have to work with (which is fixed).
But people - what a different bag! We all have talents and abilities and passions, some latent, some developed, some so well hidden we didn't even know we had the inkling of a potential!
So when people quote statistics about who, and how many, and by how much, people can "make" it in this odd multi-level marketing business, we forget that any one individual can be stirred to action by the combination of encouragement, training, tools, vehicle and purpose, and that, like popcorn in a heating bucket, we never know who will pop and when...
As one of my colleagues remarked, if all people got out of this business was greater peace, happiness and people skills, that would indeed be worth it. The fact that anyone can develop, and some CHOOSE to develop, the skills needed to create and sustain a passive income from a people-based asset, is so hard to categorise using statistics.
I've just re-read this and found an obvious flaw, but too tired to deal with. I hope this viewpoint has been of interest - I'm sure I'll find out the hard way if it's not liked!
Looking forward to your response, Tim.
Best wishes everyone
(and remember to judge for yourself, based on your own experiences and to take others' experiences in context (if that is possible - I agree, often more information is needed to gain a suitable sense of context) - anyway, not everyone has a bad experience, even those at the "bottom"! :-) In fact, being at the bottom provides a sort of reassurance that, if I understand correctly these issues now, I cannot be accused of only believing them due to my success (and, implicitly, others' failure), which is what would happen if I wrote this posting as a Diamond! ).
P.S. (Sorry to make this even longer! I got carried away....)
About your calculations, Tim - I’m so sorry if this sounds picky, but I just wanted to clarify if I had understood correctly - you say there are around 1,000,000 active Quixtar IBO’s at any one given time, and you go on to say what (generous) proportion slip away (around half) every year. I was wondering - if we are examining the proportion of Quixtar millionaires to existing Quixtar IBOs, of what use is the information on how many have dropped out? Is the figure of 4000 Microsoft millionaires taken from Microsoft’s lifetime of total employees, or just those that work there at the time that the millionaires were created?
I’m sorry if this is a dumb question (you wouldn’t believe I took degree-level maths, I know), but I was just getting confused as to what the parameters were for the calculations.
I.e. are we trying to establish what potential a new Quixtar IBO has of becoming a millionaire? (or are we trying to establish which method of becoming a millionaire has a better chance of success?)
In the first case of which, how is that potential affected by those that are in Amway for a week, a month or even a year before they quit (one presumes that when one becomes a millionaire through Quixtar, one doesn’t then quit Quixtar)? I would have thought it makes a more useful comparison to see how many of those still in Amway have become millionaires....?
I had heard that there were around 3 million Amway IBOs worldwide (maybe more now) and that around 70% of those registered did nothing at all, which would make around 900,000 active IBOs worldwide (who, between them, appear to generate around $6 billion annually, which would mean each active IBO generates an average of around $6600 annually in turnover).
If (I know, big if) we assume that Quixtar produces a very close second to Microsoft in terms of millionaires generated, then divide 900,000 active IBOs into 4000 millionaires, to get an 0.44% ratio of Amway active IBO to Amway actual millionaire.
You don’t mention what percentage of Microsoft employees go on to become millionaires, so I had a quick scan on Google - it suggests Microsoft has a worldwide employee size of around 71,500, which would make it a 17.9% ratio to become a millionaire with Microsoft.
Obviously, that looks very good by comparison with Quixtar, except that Microsoft millionaires were created by stock options during 1986 to 1996, and that now they have cancelled stock options and offer employees shares instead, which suggests the number of future Microsoft millionaires will be lower (although it depends on what the Microsoft share price will vary by).
On the other hand, from what I understand, becoming a millionaire in Quixtar is not limited by external factors, and therefore the low proportion of millionaires either reflects how hard it is to achieve, or how few people actually wish to work to that level.
Additionally, is the definition for millionaire taken from total asset wealth, or income per year, or total income? I would have thought that many wealthy people, whether through Quixtar, Microsoft or any other business, would invest that wealth in assets that lead to them being millionaires, which means that perhaps many Quixtar IBOs who are reasonably wealthy but have not earned $1million as income from Amway, nevertheless go on to invest that income into assets that turn them into millionaires. Maybe?
Again, not a criticism, just an ignorant question, because I never studied these subjects (just the sciences and engineering and modelling and, later, psychology) - the 6% of the US family populace that you quote as being millionaires - are all of them self-generated millionaires, or do some of those inherit their wealth?
(Do you see why I don’t like statistics? - unless I fully understand the premises upon which they are based, I get easily confused as to what is being proposed!)
Anyway, in my particularly layperson summary, I surmise that it seems historically (36x) fewer people became millionaires directly through Quixtar than they did through Microsoft, although those that will become millionaires in future through Microsoft have less control over this happening than those in Quixtar. Is that a fair summary?
Thanks for your patience!
Collete,
Well! That was quite a comment! Sadly, I'm a bit tired at the moment, but I've taken a few moments to move your copy to it's own article, both to give it more exposure and it's own comment thread.
At the moment, I don't have time to address anything in specific, but that's certainly no reason others shouldn't be able to. If anyone else wants to address what Colette has written, feel free to do so here.
I'll only answer one point at the moment:
Tim, I sincerely have to congratulate you on your fine sentence structures, your clear thinking and reasoned, intelligent arguments. Out of all the postings on this site, I enjoyed reading yours the most.
I thank you sincerely. I believe there was a purpose behind my attending those meetings, and I'm pleased, whether they agree with me or not, if others can benefit somehow.
I also thank you and so many others who have contributed to the "fascinating reading" you just enjoyed. Concerning Quixtar/Amway, I think an open discussion is so much better than a monologue, no?
I was asked to go to a meeting to get information on Quixtar. the questions you need to ask are 1. who pays you? 2.Are there W2's,state, local,fed taxes paid? 3.How do you handle returns, complaints? 4. Do I need assumed name papers and from what country? 5. What about legal problems, law suite? 6. are there any pending law suites against Quixtar now, how will they effect me? 7.Why is this not a pyramid. 8.How many people are involved in my area and have we reached a saturation point? 9.How is the price % earned for each rung in th latter? 10.is there an annual dues or fees? 11. Can you be droped from Quixtar? 12.Is attendance to seminars mandatory? 13. What is th failure rate of new recruits?
Dan, did you get any answers or did they respond with more questions?
In the beginning the world was made up of one large continent. The people all had One language. The people proceeded to build a tower called babel. God then confounded the languages and scattered the people all over the world. The continents were then seperated. Now Thousands of years later we humans have connected all the continents via the world wide web. We installed a universal language. Say if I send an email to china it will be digitally changed to chinese. So what god changed man has changed back. Now you want me to get this number that allows me access to shop for goods online? No way,the people who buy into this thing are mostly evil, Driven by greed. Riches are their focus. So what happens when let's say this thing gets so big it starts eliminating lets say the walmarts Kmarts meijers all the way down to your local grocery stores? The man at the top of the pyramid may be the Beast. I know if you didnt have the number you could not buy anything. I also know he could change anyones income under him seeing he is the creator of the system.He could also delete your number if you failed to worship him. This looks like a way for the anti-christ to gain wealth and power. I know that the bible says that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. So flip the pyramid upside down and where do you think all the greedy people or the root of all evil which is the love of money will be at? The Bible also says that the poor shall inherit the earth. Think about that for a while next time you are motivated to change your life for money. Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you!
John, after the people tried to build the tower of babel, remember what happened to the powerful king Nebuchanezzar?
Shaun said: I'm not sure what you people are talking about, but quixtar is the best thing that has ever happened to me. With-in the next two years I will be a DIAMOND!!!! So stop with your negitive mind set and get up and do somthing.
Posted by: Shaun on March 23, 2004 01:14 PM
Joe says: What happened to Shaun?
I want to quit, even though I promised my son and myself I would stay in it for two years. I signed up for the internet sight for two years so the bill would not drive me nuts every month...I spent over $1000 per month on products to get points and pvbv for my upline/family..my son is above me and his girlfriend above him, moved to be near her upline 6 hours away from him. He works at his regular j. o. b. and pays the rent while she can try and sell produts and sign more people up in the big city.....We hung out together alot at first and we do not see each other at all any more. I think they are mad at us because we won't pick up and move too! They do not come to family get togethers. The family refuse to support by purchasing expensive product lines/ they are poor and buy from family dollar stores. I have no customers or downline...I quit! I am no good at persuading people to get off the couch in the middle of the night for the hope of one of six legs that might go diamond...we only needed one! I cashed in all my $2ooo worth of ribbon cards today. I bought them throughout the yaer, a few every month to give away...no one is deserving! I figured if they weren't going to support me by purchasing their own products from their own website, they would not be receiving Birthday or Christmas presents from me any more...I'm keeping the gifts for myself!!! I have actually noticed that all along I have been giving away gifts left and right with no payback..not any more! The samples are all mine!Happy Birthday to me!
Anonymous, you should take a look at your profits and losses and determine whether you have prospects of turning a profit and make yor decision based on that information.
I read most of these posts. I just know that my wife has been working very very hard at this business for the last 8 years with no profit to show. She has gained friendships and knowledge but no wealth.I really am not sure what one has to do to be sucessful in this Quixtar business, but definitely know it's not working for her yet. She still is very positive and will not quit even if it affects the rest of her personal life. Basically she is chasing the dream, but I fear she will not catch it.
Big Dog, your perspective is true. For many IBOs, they will chase the dream and never achieve it. Often, a 2-5 year plan is shown. If your wife has been active for 8 years, it is likely that she will never reach the goal.
Many leaders are smart and teach you that money is not imprtant, that friendships are what quixtar is about. It's a way to divert your thoughts away from the fact that you aren't making a profit. Try not attending some meetings and see how many friends you still have?
Hopefully your wife will realize that a business is about making a profit. It's amazing how the quixtar leaders get their faithful downline to avoid thinking about their business in terms of profit. Good luck.
Ok Quixtar is like the NFL. Quixtar is the main group as in the NFL. in the NFl they have many differnt teams. Cowboys, Jets etc.. In Quixtar they have differnt teams. if you hate the jets do you hate the NFL. people join a team on quixtar and have bad experience, that does not mean that other teams are like that. they have thousands of people world wide on differnt teams, can you say that you know every person on every team and know that they are lying to you. everyone criticizes Quixtar as a whole, but really you need to criticize that one team.
Quixtar is like the NFL. you have the NFL and differnt teams in the NFl( cowboys,jets etc..) You have quixtar and then differnt teams under them. if you watch the jets and they lose every game you dont stop watching NFL you watch a differnt team. Same with quixtar if you have a bad experience with it, its because of the team and the people in it. they have millions of people world-wide and can you say you know every person on every team. no some people are nice some people are not. it depends on the team you have. so instead of criticizing quixtar how about you find what team you were on and criticism them. because i know my team is differnt then the teams you are talking about.
Comparing quixtar to the NFL is complete nonsense. In the NFL, all the players are fairly well compensated. If NFL players were scamming people out of their money, indeed people might have something against the NFL wouldn't they? Also, if the NFL had a team with players doing something wrong (see Patriots Spygate), that team would be penalized and possibly fined for their behavior.
What has been done to IBOs who lie and cheat to make a profit or sale?
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You are not off base. You have articulated one of the most rational and common sense appraisals of what is a rather confusing and mysterious business.
The sad truth is that you indeed may lose a friend over this and I'm still searching for other "legitimate" businesses where friendships are so routinely lost by simply declining to participate in the business.
Posted by: QBlog on November 11, 2003 11:03 AM