The Quixtar/Amway Sales Pitch
Quixtar
| November 10, 2003
| Tim
Recently a friend of mine called to tell me about "business opportunity" she had. I smelled something I'd heard many times before, but I'm a bit concerned about her, and was worried about the character of this new thing. So it was worth hearing the pitch -- if I decided it was yucky, I could warn her about it; it if looked great, then why not get involved?
(Yes, of course I'm skeptical, but I'm also open-minded. They're not incompatible, you know.)
I was initially a tad annoyed that, without previous warning, she introduced me to her "mentor" and asked if I'd mind if she'd join us. But, hey, what the heck, it's a sales pitch anyway: not to be confused with a tete-au-tete meeting with friends.
So they did the spiel: You buy products, which are "better than those found in stores" at a substantial discount, and also earn points by signing up friends. Sounded a bit like Amway, which my parents had had a brief brush with in the past: friends tried to talk them into it. They tried a few products, decided they didn't like 'em, and didn't go any further. Eventually, the friends who did it also quit later, apparently disillusioned.
Turns out Quixtar, the company behind this pitch, was started by the Amway people and is owned by the same parent company, Alticor. I suspect it was to get around problem associated with bad reactions to the Amway name in the U.S.
But there's an added twist here. This particular group has sort of "positioned" itself (marketing-wise) as an ethical way of helping improve people's lives. There's a real "Christian" twist to this particular sales angle.
So we talked a bit, they drew out pictures, and we're going to meet again in a number of days, of course. And I've been left with the customary token bits of literature.
The Issue: Saturation
The most important ethical issue, as far as I can see it, is a little thing called "saturation." Part of the income you receive is from adding people to the organization. In a (hypothetical) static population, you're eventually going to have signed up all the people who going to want to sign up. When this happens, those at the lowest levels of the "pyramid" have the least good deal.
The question, then, is (a) can this happen, and (b) if so, what is the status of those people at the bottom of the pyramid when saturation is reached. If those people will still be pretty happy with things (say, the products they are buying are the major part of the benefit, and they're just dynamite), then the organization is ethical.
And if not (the products aren't the bulk of the income, or they're not good, or they've "invested" costs which will never return) then the situation is inherantly unethical, and would appear to conflict to me with the biblical principle of "doing unto others as you would have them to do you," since the broader you grow your network, the more people you'll "shaft" in the end.
Does Saturation Happen?
The Quixtar/Amway people say there's no such thing as "saturation". This page, written by a guy whose wife used to do it, details four common arguments against it, with his own responses, most of which I find are reasonable.
Saying "this isn't for everyone" only means the market is smaller than the population: e.g. that if saturation will occur, it will occur faster since there are less potential customers. Calling those who ask a "loser" is a way of telegraphing that we aren't on friendly terms with honest inquiry and accountability.
Then there's "it hasn't happened". This seems true because the business is expanding globally (66% of it's income is currently coming from Asia). Since most of us aren't going to be travelling to Tanzania, we need to think only about the impact in a relatively "closed" market, like the city I live in, within driving distance.
So we're left with the argument that a person turns 18 years old every minute. According to the CIA World Factbook, the US population growth is .95%, which means that each year, for each American like me, one old geezer dies, one young pup turns 18 is can now be marketed to, and there's one new person added for each hundred we already have.
When saturation is reached in some local area or market, it means that your average bottom-level IBO (their term for a person you sign up) will be stuck with be 1.01 new people per year for quite a long time.
So how is life at that level?
Life on the Bottom
That's the golden question: if life at the bottom is good, we have ourselves a valid business opportunity. But if life at the bottom sucks, we're basicly playing a geometrically-multiplying version of "hot potato", and each new person we add means there are several more who will now get burned.
From what I hear, they undersell the expenses and time commitment needed to get started. First, there's a $200 up-front comittment. Not too bad. But then, I hear, one is required to purchase $70 of products. (Most my shopping is perishables. I use about two bottles of shampoo a year or less.) Then you have to buy quite a lot of training materials -- listen to a tape every day, and read a new book every month. Then there's a subscription fee (how much?) and, from what I hear, participation in a voice mail system. Then there's also various seminars to attend (how often?), which are within "driving distance". (I inquired futher, and found that halfway across the continent is considered "driving distance".) So add some seminar costs and two more days on the bus, or expensive plane tickets, and hotel fees.
So what's the outlay here? $500? $1000 per year? More?
Now the question is, at saturation, how will this balance against the savings you get from buying household products at a discount? And that 1.01 new person you can sign up every year?
My guess is currently that it won't look good, but I'll be seeing what my friend has to say about her expenses. I'd also guess, if the answer given by Quixtar/Amway is that "saturation doesn't occur", then it means they're not comfortable with the idea it will be, and hence, that they've actually realized people will get burned in that scenario.
Further, I've heard it said you have to "make platinum" before one starts getting ahead. If so, the entry levels are definitely not break-even scenarios.
How Far 'Till Saturation?
Currently, my friend's IBO# is in the 300,000 range. This would seem to me to indicate that there are still about 1000 people left for each Quixtar IBO to approach and sign up. The fan-out rate they suggest is 3 "plan showings" per week (150 per year) and gaining a network of 6 people.
If so, that means there are about 3-4 layers left into which to expand: and each one is going to be a harder sell, since more and more of them will be people who have heard "the plan" already (150 per year per member!) and rejected it. Or, if the average "team" size is smaller, this expansion could last a bit longer.
Either way, it means that you either get less than 6 people on average, or that it's going to collapse sooner. My guess is the former, since it's been going for quite a while. Which means estimates based on the plan I'm shown, with 6 people, are unlikely to be an accurate statement of average results.
Is This Decision for You?
It's clear to me, with 1,000 people still available per IBO, there's a lot of money to be made from this. If you're the kind of person who doesn't feel uncomfortable with the idea someone further down the line might find it impossible to recoup the portion of your Lexus they've contributed, then this might be something you'd consider.
At this point, my understanding of Christian ethics constrains me from this idea. Since I recognize this gets inherantly "harder" for each new person signed in, I have to consider that, not for me, but for those I would "sign up". And, eventually, I have to consider whether I'm doing "unto" the guy at the bottom of the pyramid the same thing I'd want done to me in his situation.
Doesn't look good from what I'm seeing so far.
Further, the absense of open books or independent audits, accurate information on failure rate among new signups, etc. seem inconsistent with Jesus' directive that we walk publicly, in the light. Yes, I can ethically keep my own income secret, but this is a company that wants me to sign up. If all is well and good, they why won't they show me that data?
This kind of business doesn't seem to mesh well with Christian ethics...
On Christian Ethics
I'm not meaning to imply those who are selling this business are knowingly being unethical. The ones I spoke to seem like nice people who appear, as best as I can find, to say nice Christian, ethical words. But it's possible for "good" people to unknowingly propagate a bad thing.
The business model itself can be unethical, but if it is escapes detection, those promulgating it can still be acting in what they think to be an ethical fasion.
My Responsibility
I'm not liking where this is going, sadly. I must now get the startup costs, and understand how bad things will be for those trapped at the bottom. And also assess how difficult it is to get accurate information.
If the case can be made that the bottom is a fine place to live, I'm done. I might even buy some products to see how they are. If they're good enough to buy for their own sake, there's nothing wrong with selling them.
But if not, then the core business itself is actually signing up new people, not selling products. And we have ourselves a pyramid scheme, whatever we might call it.
And, if so, then (here's the scary part) the most moral thing one can do is to ensure it reaches saturation as soon as possible, and thus collapses with as little damage as possible.
In other words, I fear game theory, plus my understanding of Christianity* would dicatate that my own responsibility may be to "innoculate" as many people as I can, thus artificially constricting my own local market, and ensuring a local "collapse" as soon as possible, with as little collateral damage as possible.
[*In addition, I've never been comfortable seeing a pit-trap but walking away leaving it for the next victim, thinking: "It's not my problem." We don't have to fix the world, no, but when something comes on our own radar screen, we suddenly have to make a choice.]
It would probably hurt my friend, and very possibly make her angry with me (try to picture this, folks) but it's better, morally, than allowing her actions to eventually culminate in a hundred "leaf nodes" (or people at the bottom of the pyramid) who will never see $500 each (or more) and countless hours returned.
Sometimes I dread the things I'm compelled to do.
This may cost me a friend.
This is not uncommon territory for me, sadly.
Why not let people decide for themselves?
That's the exact point.
If (if!) this thing is not kosher, then "the threat" here is not people, but rather a "mind-virus" unleased by those at the top of the 'pyramid'; an idea which spreads best when only partial information is presented. (Such as understating initial costs, or denying the possibility of saturation.)
The solution to such a problem is to present the rest of the information, or an alternative view. I can't make it spread in the same geometric manner (or can I? interesting thought!) and let people make up their own mind.
Since I firmly believe that people who sign up now, if they work hard, will make money (and possibly lots of it!), it means my primary responsibility is to those who would get stuck in the saturation condition, and secondly to warn those I know now from doing something they might regret once they figure out what I think I'm seeing already.
And I don't see how I can get out of that one. Especially since all I'll have to do is e-mail this blog entry, or a more accurate version of it, updated with accurate costs, to all the potential targets I know and let them decide for themselves.
Tell me if you think I'm off-base here.
Further Reading
You are not off base. You have articulated one of the most rational and common sense appraisals of what is a rather confusing and mysterious business.
The sad truth is that you indeed may lose a friend over this and I'm still searching for other "legitimate" businesses where friendships are so routinely lost by simply declining to participate in the business.
Excellent post. Everyone who's "thinking" about doing it should read the post. I've been in for a year and I'm pulling out. I don't regret it because I've learned some valuable things from it. You are right on track about everything. I've made the decision to pull out because I finally got my head out of the system and looked from a different view. My biggest issue is that I don't want to screw people over in the end just so I can get a few more bucks. The people in this business always bash major corporations for getting people to earn the corporation the most amount of money while paying the employee the least amount of dollars. Same freakin' principle. Except there is no minimum wage. The average Quixtar IBO works their butt off to pay upline Platinums+ and gets paid like under 120 a month. Of course this comes up as "but do you consider yourself average?". But what the hell is average? If everyone doesn't consider themselves as average, then considering you're not average becomes an average and thus making you average. Anyway, there's one advantage this thing has over a corporation. You can be the one who screw more people over than anyone else and earn tons of money. Where as in a corporation, you aren't given the opportunity. Ah...I love how they make you learn to be positive...so you can take a negative thing and give it a positive twist. Isn't freedom of speech great? No where else can a poor person accumulate so much from other poor people that that person can be rich except in MLM :)
Years ago we went to a subdivision fall festival where we met this really friendly couple. We both had a small child and we had a great time together. A couple of days later they called and asked if they could come over and talk about something important with us. So they came over and made a pitch for us to join a pyramid scheme (yes Virginia, multi-level marketing = pyramid scheme). I politely but firmly told them no. That was the last my wife and I ever heard or saw them again - the whole point of them going to the subdivision party was to drum up business.
A couple of years ago a coworker got hooked up with Quixstar. He was constantly talking about it and was obsessed with the idea of owning his own business. He gave me a tape to listen over the weekend that he said "you'll enjoy". Well, it was a pitch by some black conservative to stop being a wage slave and get off the plantation like he did. I told the guy the truth - that I'm not a salesman, and so I'd never join anything like quixstar because I wouldn't be any good at it. I want to make things, not sell them. But a couple of guys at work did want to join, and they'd spend hours talking about it at work.
Out of politeness I didn't tell the two recruiters that I find pyramid schemes to be morally objectionable - stealing from (at worst) or using (at best) friends (or people who I would pretend to be a friend to) would be how I would describe it. I guess I'm an old fashioned guy and feel that you should earn your money by providing a real product or service, not just trading on greed.
Interesting points Kevin. It seems all too often that MLM/Quixtar people will pitch anyone and everyone to get them involved. Many times they don't even consider whether or not the person is interested let alone has the ability it takes.
Good srtudy, Ken. However the Amway/Quixtar scheme can be profitable. However it also can put you in the poor house. I got in and out of this business 5 times and I have finally concluded that it can work and just like any other business it will work if you work it. the real negative is the pushing of the people that signed you up...they push and push, but at the same time they tell you it is your business. there are tax breaks, you can just sell the products, you can contract to sell to a company that uses a large volum of the products. there are numerous ways to earn money. however for me the continued lies got to me. I already read positive books, I want to chose which ones, not be dictated to as to the ones I must read. in every busines there are seminars to attend but a new business does not go out and spend hundreds on seminars until they are ready to expand. And like any other business you will need more than a 200 dollar kit to succeed. Additionally, like any other business, do your research. Dont let someone push you into something that may not be for you. to me it never mattered how much the other guy was making. I was in it for me. I made a lot of money,had a European distributorship. Worked the program in Prague. never made a dime, but Prague sure was fun. never a living but it was an extra income and a tax break for the real job i had. So it can be advantageous. Seminar and organizational skills are also needed,along with sales skills. So you have to be a kind of multifacted business person. AND they dont tell you that before signing you up.....It is always the 3 hours per week work schedule they tell you about. Absolutely false. In this business as any other,to be able to succeed you have to work 7 days a week..and dont you forget it, ever
Thanks for the review. I am a college student and I was approached by one of my friends' roomates, wishing to help me financially, by getting me into the Brit World Wide organization (which uses Quixtar as a supplier). Everything I heard from him and the other people in the business with him praised the organization greatly, but I still had doubts. Part of the reason for my doubts was that none of the people I knew made any real money in the business. Sure, when I went to the meetings, there were people who were "doing well", but no one talked about really how well they were doing. I was not able to find any information about how many of the people joining the organization actually made a decent amount of money from it.
They make "the plan" sound so easy, and make it sound like everyone who joins will get rich quickly, but I dont really believe it anymore. I have always felt that something which is too good to be true, is. I talked with many of my friends and relatives and they all had negative things to say about the organization. I guess they were probably right. Quixtar is Amway online. The name was changed probably to avoid the negative feelings many people had about Amway.
The meeetings one can attend to "learn" about quixtar and how to use it, are mainly emotional hype. This hype is designed to get people really excited about the possibility of getting rich easily while "helping others", and to make them forget all the questions which could expose what the business really is. I think that someone could get rich in this business, but it would take ALOT more work than they will tell you. And, I agree that it involves "using" your friends.
I think it is so important to research anything you may decide to get involved in...But I also think think you should be careful where you go for advice and information. If I had a back problem, i wouldn't go to a dentist. On the same hand if you are looking to be successful, ask people who have the kind of success you want. Not just financial success, but happiness and peace. It seems that those who dedicate their live to criticizing Quixtar/Amway are in far worse shape than those so-called "users" who are in the business and are genuinely trying to make a difference in the world and in their own lives. True, this business may not be for everyone, and as in ANY business you will find those who misrepresent the intended goals of the plan, but ultimately this is a business that sets up a support system unlike any that you can find in the corporate world. Sure everyone has a financial agenda to some degree (isn't that why people go to work everyday--and that doesn't make them thiefs or users) but many "haters" in America dont like the business because people pride themselves on their "individuality" and the Brit System is fashioned so that people can lean on one another and help eachother reach goals.
Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success, happiness, morals, goals, old-fashioned hopes and dreams. Some of those people work in corporate America, some work a trade, others are independent business owners. I can tell you for sure that none of those people make it their life's mission to defame the reputation of a company that has helped so many people.
If a mail carrier decides that he isn't happy with his job and it isn't for him/her, he/she doesn't tell all the others to quit and tell people to stop recieving mail from the United States Post Office. Just accept that it isn't for you and move on.
I have been thinking of getting involved with the business for a while and reading such intense criticism makes me want to get involved even more. Obviously this business is successful and this makes people very angry. With greatness comes intense opposition. I realize that it is hard for people to think out of the box. I understand the facts and the work that is required to be successful and I can't wait to jump in...I know i am not alone.
And as for the last comment: Sometimes we don't have enough emotional "hype" in our lives...especially when it comes to something positive like this business.
Crystal,
You wrote:
I think it is so important to research anything you may decide to get involved in...But I also think think you should be careful where you go for advice and information... Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success...
You seem to be implying the best way to "research" an organization is not to ask anyone outside of it about it. I fear for your credulity.
Crystal, Quixtar has two million active IBOs. It has, by it's own admission, less than 3,000 millionaires ("only Microsoft has more" they say, and Microsoft has about 3,000). This means less than 0.15% of Quixtar IBOs are millionaires. In the general population, 3.5% of the people are millionaires.
So people outside of Quixtar are, on average, much more financially successful than those inside. Quixtar's own stats will show you this if you just pick up a calculator.
... in ANY business you will find those who misrepresent the intended goals of the plan ...
Yes, but in this business, misrepresentation (don't show too much data, don't tell them their real chances, don't even identify the true name of the business early on ("Amway/Quixtar")) seems to be the actual desired mode of behavior.
Strikes me as unethical.
It seems that those who dedicate their live to criticizing Quixtar/Amway are in far worse shape... many "haters" in America dont like the business... reading such intense criticism makes me want to get involved even more. Obviously this business is successful and this makes people very angry.
Wow. You didn't actually read anything I'd written, did you? "Itense criticism?" I said I might actually buy some of the products.
Of course, the logic here is hilarious. Many people hate this organization. Therefore, I must get involved immediately! (So are you applying for Al Qaeda membership also?)
The deception is equally hilarious. "Crystal" is clearly Quixtar-trained. She echoes all the lines they tell their people to give. Then she implies she's "thinking about getting involved with the business". As if she wasn't obviously in Quixtar already and acting as an apologist!
That, Crystal, is what I call "deception." (And a pretty lame one at that.) It's not what I'd call "moral", though that's a term you have associated above with people who do such things.
Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have... dreams...
Don't go to someone who has dreams for advice. Saying you have a "dream" is just shorthand for saying you don't yet have the success you desire.
Since I meet lots of people in Quixtar with "dreams", but few who are currently satisified, I suspect I'm dealing with a pretty unsuccessful group. Instead, this constantly unfulfilled "dream" seems to be a carrot, dangled in front of the mule, to keep it endlessly pulling the cart.
When I go to church, I see a group of people who have found something beyond what they'd dreamed. But it's not a dream of this world: It's something beyond that yacht or summer home. Perhaps you'd call Jesus a loser, being poor as he was. The apostle Paul likewise. Consider, then, the implications of a value system which portrays these men as losers.
I hope sometime, Crystal, you find yourself satisified. Not complacent, but with a peace and security you can't hope to gain through more money or Quixtar. There is nothing more important in life than that.
And I hope you stop deceiving people, as you obviously attempted to try to do in your posting here.
I wish you the best.
- Tim
Tim,
Get a life, please. Regardless of the pros or cons of the Quixtar business, you have a website to just regurgitate your negativity and personal opinion without allowing others to have theirs. Way to go, Chrystal! If you believe you can have a better way of life in the Quixtar business, I am sure you will. Tim is obviously bitter due to his own lack of personal success!
Well i was approached a couple of days ago in school by a young kid that attends classes with me. He and I are both in the same major and plan on going into the same feild.. HOWEVER.. he told me about Quixtar..saying while he sat there in class with me he was making money. Well he actually said that he makes about 1,600 dollars a month. That is decent money. Yet he still lives at home with his parents and tells me that he has to get good grades or his parents will kick him out. Making that kind of money he shouldn't worry about that;)... So my first reaction was........HOAX...LIAR...and now im glad that i have not got into it with him... .. yes he gave me the whole sales pitch and schemes about what they do and how they do it... yeah thats nice... he showed me pictures of people that had mansions and all that crap...however he didnt show me other people in the group that were where he is..at the bottom.. my guess is that they are not glorious rich folk but people sinking there own money into the lost cause of get rich quick...so just saying watch what you do with your money and you will be as well off as those that watch what YOU do with your money:)
I just love it how proponents of Quixtar all seem to have telepathic powers and can tell someone is bitter, broke, unsucessful, etc. by just reading someone's thoughts online! I tell you, if you really want to make money, nurture this gift, Scarlet, because it will more than likely pay you much more in the future then Quixtar!
What does Quixtar mean to me? Lies, Half-truths. Deceptions.
I was presented "the business opportunity of a lifetime" by some friends of my wife this past August. Being in the middle of moving, and not taking the time I wanted to take to research Quixtar, I took them almost at face value. The model sounded familiar, and I asked them if this was anything affiliated with Amway, but the denials of any relationship thereof were too numerous to count, and I fell for it.
Sadly, I was lied to, and that experience was just the beginning. Right after I signed up with my wife, we moved almost 700 miles away from our upline. The calls started as soon as our "support team" got our phone number. "Go out and make new friends." "Talk to people...most of the people who you sign up will be people you meet through this business." After meeting over 15 IBO's in my area, all of whom I had "prospected," the stark realization of saturation smacked me full in the face.
Over the last couple of months, I have been researching day and night, both pros and cons about Quixtar, and I've had enough. (I'll put it this way...I know so much more about Quixtar than my upline that I have been credited with "educating" and "compelling" them to try to get to "know the product lines and rules" of Quixtar. As this was sold to me, my upline support team was the group of experts, so I am forced to question how I can know more in 5 months than they can in years. Also, it would seem that their air of expertise at the time of showing the program was a deception. One must wonder.)
Recently, my upline mentors came out to visit, and I had it out with them about "the system" and the deceptions fed to me throughout the last 5 months. Imagine my shock when I was released from the "system." Initially, I was told that no expense should be spared to pal around with the pins, and that I needed the tapes and books. Now, I was being told that because I had problems with the Diamonds hawking non-Quixtar wares at usurious prices, I should just focus on "building [my] Quixtar-powered business." Basically, get bodies in the door, and we'll handle it from there.
As if that wasn't enough, I have to marvel at the profound level of ignorance and greed utilized by the Yeager Organization. They prey on poor folks like me by dangling the dream of going on 4-wheeling adventures through Utah with Dex and the gang. I've come to realize something over the past couple months: I wouldn't hang aroung with Dexter Yeager if I was paid to. I listened to that fool on the "If They Can Do It, You Can Do It" (CEC0309) tape and that man is as pompous a gasbag as they come. Aside from coming across as an arrogant, prod, and ill-educated man, good ol' Dex has no ability to teach anyone how to sell anything. I know whereof I speak, as I am in sales. Dexter Yeager and his gang will use good people to preach their pseudo-Christian, flag-draped siren song to anyone greedy enough or ignorant enough (me, 5 months ago) to listen, but, if you can put down your pride and greed, you can re-enter the world with principle and dignity by leaving Quixtar.
In summation, I want to thank the host for being honest enough and concerned enough to host this board and for writing his excellent articles. You are both thoughtful and brave. Many of these sites are being targetted, and I salute you for the work you are doing. Thank you and God bless you.
Tim,
In the beginning of your post you quoted my earlier comment:
'Where do i go to get my financial advice? To those who have financial success...'
You forgot to finish it. I get my advice from those who not only have financial success but happiness, morals, goals.
Please Tim don't "fear for my credulity" because I seek advice from many avenues. Mostly outside the Quixtar/Amway sphere. Maybe if you are going to quote me in an attempt to caste off everything I say as a "deception," you should at least quote me in context. I also said, in regards to whom I consider successful in life:
"Some of those people work in corporate America, some work a trade, others are independent business owners."
To add to that Tim, some people I find to be most successful in life have very little money. But they don't have such a bitter, condescending attitude towards others.
Tim it also seems that you have the same gift that you claim Scarlet has. Your Telepathic gift has manifested and you are able to discern my integrity just by "reading my thoughts." I'm a "deceiver," according to you. Unfortunately Tim, the only gift I have is the freedom of Speech.
Tim you can refer to me as Crystal rather than "Crystal," because that is my real name. Is Tim your real name or should I call you Mr. Paranoia.
Tim, did it ever occur to you that someone who might pursue this business could be honest and moral and caring? I don't lie and I don't appreciate my character being ostracized by someone I have never met. I don't think you are a liar....I just think you are mean to others. What would Jesus say about that?
I am a Christian...I adore Jesus. My value system does not portray these men as losers. My dreams for my future have nothing to do with a "yacht or a summer home," but rather giving and taking care of others. I have peace in my life. I am successful. Please don't play God...you are on dangerous grounds when you do that. Don't try and judge those who want to make money...The Bible says that the love of money is the foot of all evil not money itself. I don't love money.
FYI Tim: I don't want to join the Al-Queda (although that was a nice warm touch from someone who wishes that I find "peace"), in fact, Persuing a walk with God comes with high opposition that I am pretty much used to. That is more along the lines of what I was thinking about when I said that I can't wait to jump in. Jesus suffered the most intense opposition did he not? It seems you want to be the star and try to throw low blows about my faith. I could do the same by saying that your comments about Jesus and Church are totally nagated by your bitter attitude. Jesus loved people.
I posted a comment not to criticize an individual but to challenge a means by which past hurt and bitterness is conveyed.
If you want to help people Tim, change your tone. Let people decide truth for themselves. If their is guile in this business...Then I hope I will be smart enough to recognize it and moral enough to change it. Your ranting won't change my mind. I am sorry that you had a bad experience. If fact I will now finish reading your story to find our more about what you went through. But don't let yourself become paranoid of everyone that offers an opposing opinion. You are not the only moral person in this world.
I am not "programmed" by Quixtar. And yes, at the time of my last post I had not yet became an IBO in this business. I have been overviewing numerous sites to try and gather as much information as possible, because I want to know more. If you werent so paranoid you could see that I have no motivation to lie or make up anything to share on a site with strangers who know or care nothing about me. I don't think people who are not in Quixtar are losers so you shouldn't think those who choose to be involved are losers.
I can't speak for every experience and every business owner...but I will not deceive or misrepresent in any of my business dealings. I feel like the specific team I am a part of doesn't either.
Tim, before you start sharing your rudeness and condescension (cloaked as information and clever remarks), maybe you should consider that someone may come along and challenge not only your information (although I must say you make many great arguments), but your attitude.
Let's say hypothetically that mlm and Quixtar and all that jazz is a total fluke. I would be okay with it because I know I have no deceptive intentions nor do I care to be a part of anything that does. My team doesn't ostracize me for offering opinions and challenge my faith if I reject theirs.
If you have any further questions or comments about what I have written feel free to contact me.
Myself and one of my co-workers are both interested in Quixtar and we both think that what we have read here is interesting from both sides of the fence. However, you are all missing an important aspect of the business. Everyone thinks of Quixtar only as a get rich quick scheme. Now, I have heard both support and opposition from two self-proclaimed christians.....but, as christians, why are both of you only thinking about the system from the "get rich quick" aspect? I myself, have done alot of research into the products and prices and have found that my familiy can save alot of money by becoming IBO's and by buying bulk we can have enough food products left over to donate to a local food pantry. So, it is not only about getting rich, you can also use the system to help others while helping yourself. Perhaps you two should take enought time away from arguing with each other and putting each other down long enough to notice the important things.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
quixtar has made me a lot of money may be you just did not try.
Hey...Looks like a QuixZombie found your site, Tim. :)
Bill...As an IBO, let me give you some friendly inside advice that no one bothered to give me. If seeking to save money on charitable food donations, consider "brick and mortar" alternatives. Regular stores don't come to your door, but think about this: How much money are you saving on no-name foods if you have to pay for them to be shipped to your door? The prices aren't bad on some things...it's the hidden costs that add up.
When you add those in, you might be surprised at the results: No-name goods at name brand prices. If you join, you can get used to that kind of thing. I use Quixtar for what I want, but the Quix-culture tries to force you to be happy about "bargains" that really aren't bargains. You don't have friends leverage you into buying overpriced products and perishable food items at any real-world supermarket, do you? You will have that in Quixtar. Sure, there are some deals, as with all stores, but in the end, when you consider all the factors, look for the hidden costs. I found that out the first time I ordered from the "me-mart."
It's very wise of you to try to make an informed choice. Just make sure you consider the hidden factors.
Josh,
Tell me about the hidden costs.
Tim,
My husband and I have been "hit" up about 6 seperate times with this "business." Every time we have politely said "no thank you." We have been talked to 3 times by 3 different people in our local Target. After being bombarded so many times we decided to give it a try. Well, more like, we'll listen to what they have to say. We had our first interview at a Starbucks, then we were invited to a "weekly meeting" because our interviewer said he wanted to take us to the next step. We went. I felt weird when I went into the meeting. All these couples with HUGE smiles on their faces and they were so sappy sweet it seemed fake. We sat through the presentation and it felt and seemed like a real deal. The next evening we were prompted to attend another meeting at someone's house. I was getting tierd of the whole process. We listened to the whole speel again by the guy who had recruited us. At the end of the evening we were made part of the team. To be honest I would have rather had a couple days to think about it and go home and discuss it with my husband and research it a little more. I'm much more cautious than my husband and tend to think through things more carefully. Well, here we are in this little business that I'm not sure we should be in. Last night we were asked to come over our "Leaders" house for another meeting. This makes a meeting last Sat., another on Tues. another on Thurs. and one last night. I can't keep up that pace all the time. We live in the DC metro area and with a 2 hour commute everyday I am barely at home as it is and fight just to spend time with my husband and keep up with my ministries at my church. Honestly I think money can be made if you are willing to give up all your personal time and focus on this business. The family who introduced us to this is so sweet and they have wonderful children and they are just the kindest people you will ever meet. Honestly, I think they are succeeding at this, but they have been at it for 10 years. The wife does not work outside the home anymore and she raises their children, which is honorable. They are a sweet family.
Well, tonight we have no meeting, but Wed. is our weekly meeting that we MUST attend. Then Sat. we have another one. This is where we pay or $120/$140 registration fee. Sorry, but it's Christmas time and we don't have that much extra money to get this started, especially if it does not work for us. My first thought was, "if they are making so much money and they want to help us suceed then why don't they pay the reg. fee?" Probably a bad thought, but we can't pay that right now.
My concerns are:
1. Time - can't handle all the meetings with one a week being until 11p. Sorry.
2. Asking your friends to join. That is hard for me because I would be embarassed to approach a friend about this.
3. Their products. As far as I have been informed you have to spend $250 a month at their site. It is just my husband and I in our house and we only spend about $200 in groceries a month. I don't need to buy toothpaste, vitamins, detergent ect. every month. So I doubt I would ever produce my volume. Plus I am a bargan shopper and don't like paying for shipping. As soon as I was told about having everything delivered to my door my mind flashed $$$ signs regarding shipping costs.
The other thing I noticed, because we went to our "leader's" house last night, is that they have so much stuff. Like their vitamins took up a whole kitchen cabinet. I don't need that many vitamins. They had all kinds of protein shakes and bars ect. That is fine, but it seemed they had more than they will ever consume. to me that was a waste of money.
Like I said, I think people can make money with this, but not sure it will be us.
Bill...
In the interests of simplicity, let's start out with shipping costs. While I was informed that it "pays to order in bulk" (i.e., many essentials at once), this is only true to a point. As with most e-merchants, the price of shiping escalates proportionate to the total invoice amount, up to $750, after which shipping is free. If you transfer most of your needs to Quixtar, you will find that the amount you pay will escalate as the amount you order escalates.
On Quixtar, you will not find most of the perishable food items typical families consume . There are non-perishable foodstuffs listed, but you will discover that the only way to make Quixtar cost-effective is to "pad" your orders (ordering stuff you don't actually need) so that you don't waste space in your shipping bracket. This practice is reinforced by the end-of-the-month rush to fulfill your PV/BV bracket requirements. Normal folks order things on an "as needed" basis, but that shopping style would cause you to pay as much as 50% more for those items just to have the items shipped. Admittedly, on a grand enough scale, Ditto Delivery could be an answer to the problem, but I doubt many value shoppers would find enough on Quixtar to make it feasible.
Extra costs are to be found elsewhere, as well. If you cruise through the self-care and vitamin aisles of Quixtar, you will notice a vast price difference between Quixtar and your local grocery store. For example, you will pay $4.70 for a mediocre deodorant stick, and $28 for a bottle of one-a-day vitamins. Allegedly, these are the best products that America has to offer. I'm not so sure. Admittedly, SA8 works very well, but outside the Sweet 16 line, you're much better off cruising over to your regular grocery store. It's also worth noting that with the registration fees and tools, you can expect any "bargains" to count more toward bringing you out of the red than toward generating any real savings, let alone any profit.
The real hidden cost and con of Quixtar is the motivation industry, euphamistically known as "the system." The biggest problem with Quixtar is actually the people who use it as a vehicle to their own benefit, at the expense of others. In my Line of Support, that would be Bruce Anderson and Dexter Yeager and their minions. Unfortunately, Diamond-level distributors seem to thinks that they have the market cornered on both God's good graces and financial wisdom. They view it as their downline's duty to pay for advice, in the form of books, tapes, and seminars/meetings. The recommended consumption of these goodies is going to keep you from making money until at least Gold or Silver. And that's a rosy picture. Your "Support Team" will think nothing of directing you to drive 6 hours to a meeting, pay $70-$140 to get in the door, and pay for a hotel room for a weekend, all for the priveledge of listening to these Diamonds brag about how they did this out of the goodness of their hearts (actually, for a $10000-$20000 fee) and trumpet the use of more materials and attending more seminars. Forget life as you know it. You will have meetings locally at least once a week, and you will be expected to pay $10-$20 per week to attend these. (What better way to show your local team that you appreciate them.) If you opt out of one, prepare for "concerned calls" the next evening inquiring as to your whereabouts. And with all this going on, you are still reminded to show the plan 15 times a month. Forget the monetary cost for just a second. Where does the rest of your life fit into this equation for success? I contend that it doesn't.
These folks think that once you're in their organization, they have a right to hold you accountable for how you spend your money and your time. Believe it or not, if you decide not to use "the system," prepare to be treated like a disobedient child, rather than as a dissenting adult.
Overall, Quixtar is mediocre, but not evil of itself. Rather, it is the fat cats and scoundrels at the top, who knowingly brainwash and take advantage of those beneath them, that makes the lifestyle evil.
The Diamonds make more money off the motivation industry than they do from their "Quixtar-powered businesses." That fact alone should indicate the limitations of the "I-Commerce" business model.
Josh,
Thank you for your input. It is very helpful. Like I said before, I am not looking to get rich from Quixtar. I believe those that are are fooling themselves.
I have already told my potential sponsor that I am not interested in getting rich or "retiring" in 2 to 5 years. That's his goal and more power to him.
I'm also not too worried about the "pushyness" of my up-lines. I have no problem telling them I'm not interested in what they have to peddle and where they can stick it. It won't hurt my feelings at all.
I'm just interested in trying the business out and feeling around to see if there is anything I can pass along to others to help them out. Not, as many people mistake, to help them get rich.
I have done a lot of research on the Quixtar business opportunity and have found that the only people that have primarily negative comments to make have no real experience with it, or have failed when at one point they beleived they could be successful. These are the people who have all of the confidence of ignorance or feel like failures and want to vent. Go ahead and keep on complaining about something you really don't understand because you have only witnessed and experienced failure or have nothing better to do than to gripe about a business opportunity you know nothing about. I say, "Give me a break!" While you stay broke and in a state of quiet desperation lerking behind your computer screen, writing ridiculous uninformed articles, others are making fortunes, retiring in their 20's and living amazing lives. Enjoy the next 40 years at your job!
Thank you, Kelly, for your educated dissertation on the merits of Quixtar. I found your post informative and balanced. Gosh, I guess I really am broke and uninformed. I never would have guessed it.
Sure, Quixtar makes some folks rich. Those of us in the organization are frequently reminded by the propaganda machine. A lot of human endeavors can lead people to wealth, Kelly, that is not the issue. The truth, like it or not, is that most people joining Quixtar will never walk across the stage. Do the math, Kelly. It's a pyramid scam, and if you want to look more broadly, the system is, as well. Some folks always do well with Ponzi schemes, but the vast majority don't.
Now, you attacked those of us who disagree with the Quixtar drones: "While you stay broke and in a state of quiet desperation lerking behind your computer screen, writing ridiculous uninformed articles, others are making fortunes, retiring in their 20's and living amazing lives. Enjoy the next 40 years at your job!" Rubbish. It's nice to see that you know me so well, Kelly. Before you go around slandering people you don't know, you might at least take the time to research our claims, instead of parroting what Dex Yeager or some other diamond told you. Is rote regurgitation of what the Diamonds say really necessary? I think we've all heard the wrath of the Diamonds against those of us who defend the truth. Instead of taking talking points from the high priests of your materialist cult, it might do you some good to actually research the fact about it.
Nobody attacked you personally here, and it does nobody any good to launch blanket attacks at people exercising the right to free speech in an effort to let the truth have a voice. All you do by your hate-mongering is let the world know how much brainwashing and cult-like behavior is a part of being an IBO. Enjoy your tenure as an IBO.
I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up? I am an IBO and have read everyones oppinions, and everyone makes valid points, but the bottom line is Quixtar can make you money if you do the work. It is not get rich quick, for some people it won't make any money. It all depends on what you want and how hard you are willing to work for it. I have never been told I have to buy the books and tapes or go to the meetings, I choose to because I like being around the people, they are decent hardworking people who want something more. I'm sure not everyone has a good experience, but it's not for everyone. In every business and corporation in the world there are people who do and say less than legal and moral things, all I can do is stick to what I think is right. The one thing the article in the beginning fails to mention is that a lot of the profit from this business lies in clients and members, people who buy things from the IBO because they like the products but do not want to have their own business. Having clients and members is encouraged in order to keep your business stable. IBO's may come and go but if a client like the products they are buying and the prices then they will continue to provide the IBO with business. I agree with everyones right to have an opinion but I don't think either side should be misleading and hateful in their information which I have seen a lot of on this site.
Josh - So you're an IBO . . . guessing by your comments you'll probably be one of the folks who never walks across the stage. Quixtar doesn't make anyone rich, if that were the case all you'd have to do is sign up. You make yourself rich by WORKING. It takes lots of work and enough money to make it seem almost like it isn't worthwhile at times for those of meager income (most people in the US). It is not a worthwhile venture for those unwilling to put down the remote control and work. That's why most people don't make it - they won't put forth the massive effort it takes. The VERY FEW people who are, are the one's who walk across the stage.
W-O-R-K. That is something every endeavor has in common if you want to be successful at it. Do you really think that if you work hard, do all of the things that others have done to be successful and don't give up you won't go across that stage yourself, dear Josh? Do you really believe that anyone who stays in and actually does the WORK without giving up or copping an attitude because of his or her jealousy or judgements doesn't make it? Most people are not successful in anything - that is the truth. That is mainly because of their personal habits and unwillingness to do what it takes to be successful - like put down that remote control for instance. No, again Quixtar doesn’t make anyone wealthy - people make themselves wealthy. It is not a get rich scheme, but it does work or no one would be wealthy from it at all. I feel sorry for you and people like you, Josh because obviously at one point you must have had an inkling you'd be successful. Like I said - and yes it is a Quixtar cliche: Enjoy the next 40 years! Someone who would say something like this has no concept of what it takes to be successful in anything, let alone Quixtar: "Sure, Quixtar makes some folks rich. Those of us in the organization are frequently reminded by the propaganda machine. A lot of human endeavors can lead people to wealth, Kelly, that is not the issue. The truth, like it or not, is that most people joining Quixtar will never walk across the stage" Why do you continue to renew if you're already sure you won't become wealthy through it? Poor (in more ways than one) misguided soul.
There are some IBOs out there who misrepresent what it takes to be successful just to sign people up – Those of us who are smart tell people in a straight forward way what it really takes, so we can see if we’re dealing with people who actually want to do something profitable for themselves and us. Oops – did I just admit that I want to make money? Well it is a business, is it not?
O.K. here is what it takes: It takes work, it takes money (which you can get by selling products retail – what a concept , huh?), and it takes a never-give up attitude that most people are not willing to develop. I can tell you truthfully – when you first start out and you aren’t at a point where client and member sales leverage your purchases – you spend at least $300 a month on your business (if you really are out there WORKING) – this includes your tapes and books for personal use, books, tapes and other materials to give out, toll free phone number, personal web site, and weekly meetings. Plus if want to do all of your points yourself about $250 more in product purchases. The smart folks work on getting others to buy from them to defray the product cost. At least 5 days a week – you’re out there working – making contacts, going to meetings, conducting your own meetings to expose your business to others, etc. Often a night you may only get three or four hours sleep if you have ajob to go to the next day. Then there are quarterly conferences that cost about $100 for a ticket to the weekend’s events plus travel, hotel and food. Wow!! That’s too much to commit to! That’s what most people would say – and that my friends, is why most people don’t make it. The very few who are willing to commit to all of that until they reach their goals are the ones who walk across the stage. Plus the whole Christian thing turns a lot of people off. So I guess I just weeded out some would-be Josh’s. Successful IBO’s know there are many people out there just like them who’ll be on stage too, despite the inevitable naysayers like our friendly IBO buddy, Josh.
Hi All
The tapes I am listening to say that we are paid directly by the company and that we are not making money from each other. If this is untrue, where is the proof? ( I ask in sincerity) At this point, I am still learning and checking it out. The same tape also said that a person can exceed the income of their sponsor. I didn't quite understand, but this does not sound like a pyramid to me. (?)
Also, we just bought over $400 worth of product and paid $17.95 in shipping besides receiving a promotional discount ( which I didn't even notice until just now) of $20.93.
I don't recognize lower prices; if anything, they seem average to high, but I appreciate the chance of checking into a viable money-making opportunity for such a small investment.
And by the way, we were shown this about 4 years ago by our sponsors and remained good friends with them after having refused the opportunity. They never asked us to join after that, stating that it is not for everyone but the friendship remained.
I don't know what level they are now (we just joined and they live in Hawaii and us in CA) but they did go on a cruise last year with the Paulin's.
Just sharing my own experiences.
Best wishes to all :-)
Kathy
wow , all this is very interesting so far! Can't believe all the debating on this business here. ??? Don,t really know what to say, thought i would look at these sites that all these smart people have looked at, Looks like an Enquirer, or a Jerry Springer wanna be online show here. I have read all these post just to examine for myself,and for you that want to answer me . Too Bad i won't be back very soon anyway. I have read about people that started this business and did nothing, i have read about people defending this business to people who it shouldn't matter. Life is about choices and what we do with them, so i will keep my choices to myself , But just so all of you know i am an IBO,. But i also own another brick and mortar business to, and it sounds like to me the ones who are not doing business as quixtar ibo's . Really have no idea what the are slamming this business about, and I don't have to go out every night to do this , i choose to , and i choose to be around positive people , rather then all them thumb suckers out there that give their opinion ,whether people want it or not, and to me that is very sad, they try to save the world based on their opinion no one gives a rats butt about. I say for all of our sakes lets let them sit here and write to themselves, and they would probably argue with themselves about that even!! LOL To each their own opinion , history has recorded that some are poor some are rich, some live some die, some are sad and some happy. I chose to have fun, make money, and help people. in that order, because need money to help people!! we let people make up their own minds, as long as they understand what they saw!! Well gotta run spent to much of my valuable time on here!
I guess it would be a stupid question to ask all of you "satisfied, loving life" IBO's why you're out here attacking people with dissenting opinions. Would it be too much to assume that there is some seed of doubt, or that you feel threatened by those of us who disagree with you?
Let's set some things straight. I do not hate Quixtar. Quixtar, like any other business is just in this to turn a profit. I don't hate any other IBO's. They're in this to live the dream. I DO have a problem with Diamonds who are using this system to take advantage of people, and I DO have a problem with the lies that I was told when my sponsors showed me the plan, which were repeated by the next 2 levels above them. As any rational person should, I feel deceived, and I want to let everyone possible know about the deceptions out there.
Am I a long-term AmQuix distributor? No. Six months ago, I had no idea what this thing called Quixtar was. I'm not lazy, and I don't intend to remain with Quixtar. However, it is our duty as good citizens and persons of character to speak up against the swindlers and cheats of this world. Since "the system" people fit that description, we have an obligation reveal them for what they are.
If Quixtar and the system are working out for you, and if your conscience allows you to be involved, then more power to you. Understand, though, that your views are not universal, and that some of us out here have reasonable grievances against your organization. It is presumptuous to attack without doing your own research.
Some people are in Quixtar to follow there dreams, I disagree. I'm in quixtar to catch my dreams, difference is I follow my heart instead.
I don't think anybody should be attacking anybody every let me stress that EVERYBODY has a right to there opinion.
Now here's mine I'm a Quixtar IBO and Every meeting I have had with my upline I have had red warning lights going off. There is something weird about a business where you can't express who you are I don't know if it is the same with all quixtar uplines but I have noticed that most (not all) men of this organization refer to their wives or other woman ibo's as "girls" I disagree highly to that I'm grown with life experience for a reason and I was given a mouth for my opinion to be expressed not to let my "significant other" do it for me. I guess you can say that I have received an underlying message that us woman in "the business" with husbands are suppose to be seen but not heard unless we are addressed by our husbands and i won't stand for that.
On another note the people that are out here attacking others saying how they believe in the business and in god well what the hell are you doing putting other people down. God never taught that. He taught to "turn the other cheek" or walk away but Don't put others down. Yes you can give your opinion but if you do. Don't sit up there and act like your crap don't stink and that you are better than anyone else with a holier than art thou attitude cause that isn't right.
Now a couple more things and I will be done.
1) it takes money to make money Kelly so if you don't have a job to support your expensive habit then it's really hard to get in to get the members and clients to order from you ok.
2) I do enjoy my job I can wear whatever I feel like I don't have to go out and get an expensive wardrobe to go to meetings and I don't have to not smoke at my job i'm allowed cigarette breaks with no greif (again this might just be the chain I'm on) but we have about 200 people at our Tuesday night meetings and every single one of them dresses in a 3 piece suit. and most of them have given up smoking because it is looked down upon. I have worked to hard in my life to have some organization looked down on me for the indepedant individual i have fought so hard to become. You probably think i have a job at a fast food facility no I work for the state thank you and I have been here for 3 years and I'm living paycheck to paycheck I don't have the extra money to be forking out for weekly meetings yeah ours is only $4 a week which is $16 - $20/ month but that is 1 -2 tanks of gas to get me to work that is 5 loads of wash and 5 to dry (notice no dry cleaning) I have priorities.
3) Also My recruiting upline said this would be a job that only takes 10 - 15 hours a week um so far from what i have read you are working a regular 40 hour a week job but you have to pay for alot more than I do and we make probably about the same except I have a retirement fund set up for me. How about you? Also I defer 10% of my paycheck into my retirement fund so I'm doing very well + I have medical benefits which helps me go to the doctor. that's the security i need.
And no I don't have any student loans I didn't need a college degree to have a job.
Last but not least
4) I love my friends and even though they don't get the business understanding I will never leave one behind or forget who they are and what they have meant to me because I have a meeting or because i'm becoming to important to hangout with them that's not how you treat your real friends.
This is all I have to say
Leave noone behind and remember those who helped you when you didn't have anyone.
Can anyone tell me how are Quixtar and Amway related? I am a IBO and i join Amway 3 weeks ago. But i joined it out of haste and i did not do any research on it. Why? because i thought it was a get rich quick scheme. And my upline told me i can earn $3000/mth spending 10hrs/week. I managed to sponsor a new IBO, but when i tried to bring down the second, he did his research and showed me the cons of this business. I decided to do some research and came across this website.
Read : In the United States, the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month. No such labels are required in other countries, but the facts are clear. Most people who get involved in Amway will not make money.
I dunno if this is accruate or not because i am a Singaporean IBO. I do not expect to get rich in a few months or years. But i do hope to earn a decent income over time (Say 10 years). And when i retire i can have residue income. Unlike conventional jobs, residual income hardly exist.
I am getting disillisoned and confused. Why do people call Amway ScAmway? Will everyone who work hard in the business succeed?? I am willing to work hard, and is making the effort to go to every meeting (btw the meeting cost $3 for around 2 hours, that adds up to around $150 a year). At the end of the year if i choose to return the starter kit and get back the S$68, i know i would have wasted alot of time, and my friends who refused me would have the last laugh.
Well let me tell my experience. Lot of couples had sugessted this to me and my husband. Few times we listened to them and said NO. Then again we met another new couple. They were friends with us for couple of months and I was thinking OK I got some real friends and they used to apprecaite evrything we did and said,but after few days BOOMMMM. The quixtar bomb was dropped on us. They requested us a lot to attend the meeting so we went. And oh my god those ladies were appreciating everything. How beautiful I am, how my skin is glowing, my face is so similar looking. And our friend was continuously telling how good I have setup my house and how clean it is. I mean do they really need to do that. It looks so fake and overdone. Well the guy was not even asking us at the end about what we think on joining and he was asking for registration money check right there. What is the hurry? I said we want to think it over and after 2-3 days they called and we said no as we won't have time to attend meetings etc. Secondly we hardly spend $150 dollars a month (not including vegetables) on houshold. Again we buy tissues, detergent once in 3 months. So I guess it was not worth for us.
OK the FUNNY PART is after we said no they didn't maintain any contact with us. You won't believe they didn't even smile at us when we met at the mall. Why do these quixtar people do like this. I mean we have experienced it so many times. If the business is so genuine why do they need these tactics? Is that included in the training to make friends, and break it if not joining. What a Crap.
What can I say about QuixtaR? CULT CULT CULT CULT!!!
Keep up the good work. This is the first post I have ever made about this issue. Having been a very loyal Amyay/Quixtar IBO in the Crawford/Wilson/Yager AMO for ten years I think I know a thing or two about what is taught. Your points about A/Q in your rebuttal to Crystal are right, but I think you may have attacked her (rather than A/Q and the AMO's) a bit vigorously, hence her defensive reply.
I am embarrased that I swallowed what was taught hook line and sinker. You are taught to trust (only your upline though) to dream $$$ dreams, to pursue money in direct contradiction to 1 Tomothy 6 (those of you who say you are Christians need to meditate on this, I never did till we got out), and to think ill of every other business venture out there. What finally got me thinking was "Why would Dexter hire Dave Thomas, Wendy's founder, to come teach if he really believed any other business is stupid?" This traitorous thought led to another and I finally found I could no longer listen to the vitriol that is spewed at every other enterprise. I will admit a few crumbs of admiration of a few stellar businesses are handed out but the message as a whole is very degrading toward anything not A/Q., very different from what exists in other boardrooms.
I also want to tell you there is no way that A/Q or the AMO's teach people to obey the 10 customer rule, despite being told that it is the most ethical business around. I have read on the net that someone (a senator?) in the US is trying to get rid of the 10 customer rule for direct sales by legislation. This concerns me a great deal.
Also, a note about the IBOA. It is supposed to be an elected board, but everyone is told who to vote for probably partly because no one has a clue about any of the issues facing distributors or any of the diamonds opinions on them. Vote fixing?
Two good things we did get out of it is we started going to church where we lived, even though we disregarded the churches teaching about pursuing riches, and we were put in touch with a pastor who counselled us through a difficult part of our marriage (I thougtht my husband had issues because he refused to build the business!).
Every month or so a belief I formed while in the business comes to light and is revealed for the lie it is. This is still happening after over two years away from the AMO system.
If someone reading this still gets involved, one thing I would plead with you is don't lose contact and remain on friendly, close terms with those of your family and friends that choose not to join you.
Please remove my email address. Thanks
QUIXTAR IS FOR BRAINLESS MORONS. IT IS AMWAY
This site is amazing! I never thought there would be such a seperation of opinions. It's like there's a group of IBO's on the defense, and a group of "haters,"(As Crystal would call them) on the attack. I personally think that the whole 30-45 minutes it took to read all the posts and write a response has been one of the worst wastes of my time I can remember. The Quixtar 'drones' all seem preocupied with some Euphoric land where everyone is happy and rich and Quixtar is a part of everyone's life. The Opposition to this, though, seems to be saying (At least Tim is...) that if you join Quixtar, you're damned to Hell for all of Eternity. Well, in the midst of this, here I stand as the Midway Point.
I myself am actually an IBO in Quixtar (hold on though, if you're already thinking of skipping to another post) who has had a relatively good success rate. Just because I'm doing good doesn't mean I like the BWW system or even the people I associate with on a weekly basis. I actually try to get out of seeing my 'uplines' as much as possible due to the fact that they are all dillusioned by the religous side of Quixtar. I, myself, am actually an Atheist (damn me to hell, pray for me, or whatever later), my 'upline' though, are a bunch of brainless idiots that think that, because they believe in god, god will make them become diamond. They make me sick.
On the other hand, my 'downline' and myself are actually a very decent down-to-earth group of individuals. They have realized (as have I) that religion really has nothing to do with this business. This business, like other businesses, is about making a profit, nothing more, nothing less. The idea is to change your buying habits, and teach others to do the same, at a profit to yourself. On this front, I believe Quixtar to be a very efficient business.
If you've read through all of the above, you may think I'm crazy. But what I'm trying to say is that both sides have both good and bad points. However, I can't really agree with either. My thoughts on this can all be summed up in one statement: Quixtar is a very good business idea, but business should be kept with business. The major mistake, in my mind, that may eventually become it's downfall, is that the leaders of the business today keep trying to throw religion into all of this somehow.
Thank you for reading my ideas on this unique business model/religious cult, but due to the fact that I stumbled upon this site by chance, and that I rarely ever check my e-mail, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of me, and I'm very sorry to say, but I doubt I'll ever find my way back here to see any responses to my comment.
Kurt,
This site is amazing! I never thought there would be such a seperation of opinions.
I'm amazed, too. I just listed and commented on what I heard, and *poof* wildfire breaks out. I find it amazing that I post this wishy-washy article saying "maybe it's a reasonable business model, maybe it isn't" and people react so strongly.
The Opposition to this, though, seems to be saying (At least Tim is...) that if you join Quixtar, you're damned to Hell for all of Eternity.
Naw. I'm just saying that if "life on the bottom" -- the failures and people who get stuck at saturation -- isn't good, then, by Christian ethics, it's probably not an ethical model by my way of thinking.
Being "damned to hell", in Christianity, isn't a matter of doing everything perfectly, or never doing anything wrong. It's rather a matter of seeking forgiveness for one's sins via the death of Jesus. Sure, it's best to avoid unethical behaviors, but Christians aren't "saved" by being perfect in such a way.
Hey, but you probably knew that already, right? If so, then no problem: I'm just responding to a bit of hyperbole with a direct answer.
This business, like other businesses, is about making a profit, nothing more, nothing less...
My thoughts on this can all be summed up in one statement: Quixtar is a very good business idea, but business should be kept with business. The major mistake, in my mind, that may eventually become it's downfall, is that the leaders of the business today keep trying to throw religion into all of this somehow.
If you mean using religion as a selling point, I couldn't agree with you more.
But you also seem to be implying that there are no ethical considerations to be made other than profit. I come from a different background, and thus think ethics are an important consideration as well.
Consciously or not, our ethical considerations are always based on our assumptions about the universe. If there's no "judge" other than the law of the land, then certainly pragmatism ("I can make money doing this!") is all that counts. But I personally think we ought to consider the impact a business will have on people -- winners and losers.
Since we don't seem to share a common set of underlying assumptions, I don't see that we should have the same analysis of ethics on any particular point. I respect your view, but disagree.
Thank you for reading my ideas on this unique business model/religious cult, but due to the fact that I stumbled upon this site by chance, and that I rarely ever check my e-mail, I doubt you'll be able to get ahold of me, and I'm very sorry to say, but I doubt I'll ever find my way back here to see any responses to my comment.
And likewise, thanks for your interesting contribution!
And, speaking of ethics, I have an apology to make...
Crystal,
First, I want to apologize for saying, categorically, that you were acting in a deceitful manner. In truth, I don't know anything more about you than I can read on your postings, and I should not have assumed that you, for certain, knew more about Quixtar than you were letting on.
I found it improbable that someone would (a) know all the same arguments my potential uplines were using, without actually being in Quixtar, and (b) that someone would see many former participants alleging a business was unethical and get so excited, based on that opposition, that she just had to run out and sign up right away.
But there's a difference between improbable and impossible, and I assumed the latter when only the former was warranted.
You have my apology: Perhaps you never were an IBO. Perhaps you were motivated to sign up by seeing former participants say it was a scam. With no other evidence, I should have taken you at your word.
Also: Yes, I did miss that you were saying you went to non-Quixtar people to get advice. The argument sounded a bit too close to what I'd heard from Quixtar -- ("Only get advice from successful people -- from us!") and rounded off a bit. Again, mea culpa.
I can't speak for every experience and every business owner...but I will not deceive or misrepresent in any of my business dealings.
That would be great! Good for you!
So will you tell potential recruits, that by Quixtar's own statistics, they're twenty or more times more likely to become a millionaire outside Quixtar than in it?* Will you tell them, up front, that expenses in order to be "core" run about $3,000 per year? Will you mention to them that you have good indications that it really takes a lot more than 8-10 hours per week? Will you ask them to do the same for everyone they sign up to be an IBO?
Or will you just give half the picture, similar to what I got?
Sincerely,
- Tim
[* My upline told me "only Microsoft has more millionaires". MS had about 3,000, Quixtar has 2 million IBOs, meaning we're looking at about 0.15% or less as millionaires. The general population has more than 3% millionaires.]
First of all I think your having a response mechanism---on you critical commentary is admirable. I think you may be the only one. I do not agree with your assessment of Quixtar...there is a lot of money(hey that's what business is all about)to be made in this businesss. These people are not perfect---it appears to me that the stock market has the same problem---the oil companies--the Catholic church--etc. But I feel this is an excellent business idea--and I am going to do it!!And I feel anyone who needs everyone elses approval for their business ideas--is stupid!!
I've loved reading this post. Many good information here, even though there were some shots at one another. I want to mention one thing that I have learned with my quixtar experience, and that is that there is unlimited money to be made through retailing of products. If you can utilize B2B (business to business for you newbies), and find reliable corporations to use the janitorial supplies, there is good money to be made there. Any time you can put yourself as the "middle man" or the "store", even if you dont have to convince others to do the same....:)....there is money to be made.
SECONDLY, remember, the easiest way to become rich in life is to be content with what you have. There is no better feeling in life than to be content and thankful for what God has given us all.
Good luck to everyone.
Hi Tim
Comparing the pecentage of millionaires in one company to the general population is oranges and apples. Wal-Mart has 1.5 million employees. I wonder what their percentage is. Investment firm down the hall has 4 employee/owners and all four are millionaires - 100%.
Pharoah,
You make an interesting and thoughtful observation.
When I go to work for Wal-Mart, they generally tell me in advance what I'd expect to make. If I accept the offer, I have approximately a 100% chance of making exactly what I was promised.
(And I won't be tempted to work for even less because they imply I just might get the same kind of income Sam Walton's heirs have if I hang around long enough and stock my shelves really, really well on donated overtime. We all know that's incredibly unlikely, and nobody pretends otherwise.)
In contrast, Quixtar and related companies don't tell you what your expected return on investment is likely to be. (Even as a statistical average, as the lottery does -- even though they have such information.)
Instead, the idea of the "Quixtar millionaire" or other less serious forms of financial independence are frequently dangled in front of one. In light of that, I think it's reasonable to compare the probability of that occuring to the background average. After all, a person choosing to get involved in Quixtar is choosing it from among all those other possible areas in which they are qualified to channel their energies -- including dozens of other franchising opportunities -- many of which do provide a good likely return on investment -- and further education such as in chiropractic, law, real estate, software, or plumbing. (And remember, there are a lot of very rich people with no education beyond high school. Even landscaping and construction can make one wealthy, if done well.)
If I was qualified and invited to join two companies, and I was told the playing field was "even" within each of them (all who join have the same opportunities), then why wouldn't you join the one which produced a higher average return? For example, if you were told you could qualify, equally, for the investment company up the hall (100% millionaires) and Wal-Mart (very low expected average wages), why wouldn't you join the investment company?
On the other hand, let's just say, for the sake of argument, that you're right -- that it's not reasonable to compare the likelihood of making a certain wage at different companies. Okay, great. Then the fault lies with the Quixtar sales pitch which bragged frequently (in my experience) "Only MS has produced more millionaires!" I'm only responding to it.
But in the end, I disagree, and feel that it's completely reasonable to consider your chances of making large wages, especially when: (a) you're choosing from among other opportunities, (b) the playing field is even within a company, (c) and the chances of major success are extremely low, and especially when (d) the sales pitch strongly implies otherwise.
Well hello everybody! First off, I just want to say this is one of the more interesting sites for the Quixtar debate I have ever seen. I am an IBO, I am not really rich yet...I am at 2500PV, but I know that it works and I know that I am getting paid what I was told I would. The fact of the matter is, you Anti-Quixtar people are right on one thing for sure...some things in the Quixtar plan can be misleading if not explained properly. I recognized this a long time ago. For example, the wholesale savings...they are the savings from the Quixtar retail to wholesale, not from Kmart's price, or Kohls'. We don't compete with them, they are a different style of marketing. I inform the new people of that every time. When you tell people the truth straight up, you never have to apologize for anything, nor explain anything. Take this to heart, from someone who is middle of the road as far as success (but moving forward)...this definitly works. I have cashed the checks, I have seen people get in long after me and already be retired. I kick myself for taking so long to get started. It will work if you take it as serious as a job. However, you must maintain a high level of integrity at all times. If you so much as think of ripping someone off, you can make some quick enemies...hence some of these earlier posts!
I wish you all luck in future endeavors.
Josh and Tim, you are truly wise dudes, and I commend you for not falling for the lies of the Scamway/Quixtar slaves. It is clear to me that scarlet and crystal are the bitter ones here. At least you use ration and logic. Yes, this is a free country and the First Amendment is still effective, so you have every right to speak the truth about Scamway. More people need to know about this dishonest pyramid scheme. I am glad that I am not part of it, and I am perfectly happy where I am now in life. Greed doesn't cut it for me. I will spread the word and I encourage you to e-mail the piece at the top to me and as many people as you can. I will post it too, since people have the right to know the truth behind such a shady and crooked "business". Thanks, Tim and Josh. Keep up the good work!
I went to a Quixtar meeting and was amazed at how everyone there went out of their way to show how "successful" they were but nobody would give me any real, tangible detail. They actually made it a point to say that it's wrong to ask somebody about their personal finances around "the business". I can gree with staying out of people's financial detail in general - it really is none of my business. But if you're trying to sell me on a business plan and you claim you're "successful" at it - wouldn't you want to show me your tax returns for the year so I could see for myself? That to me is the ultimate proof that it can work. Example: "I've been in this business for 2 years and look! I'm making $xxx!!" If I was the one making $250k (or whatever) a year on a business plan and was trying to recruit additional members, what better way than by showing them how it's working for me with my own real data!? The opposition to doing something like this only shows me that everyone there just puts on a nice suit and talks about how "successful" they are rather than actually attempting to prove it to me. I thought it was funny that I was the only one not in a suit (even out of the new recruits) but I was the one asking real questions instead of just taking what they were feeding.
Another thing I noticed in the meeting is that the speaker spent 95% of the meeting giving us the benefits of owning your own business (tax write-offs, etc) and then at the end did a real quick overview of what "the business" actually entails. Just seemed really shady to me.
Tripp,
You've made some interesting comments...
I went to a Quixtar meeting and was amazed at how everyone there went out of their way to show how "successful" they were but nobody would give me any real, tangible detail.
I had a similar experience: Some in my circle of friends said, of the IBO above, stuff like "I hear they're making a lot of money at it." Certainly sounds like they'd wanted to give that impression.
But, in real life, I noticed her husband was still working his full-time job, she was still driving a beat-up car, and I wasn't so sure all those "diamonds" weren't really cubic zirconia. (A BMW is a little harder to fake, isn't it?)
And this is a person with 200 IBOs "under" her!
But if you're trying to sell me on a business plan and you claim you're "successful" at it - wouldn't you want to show me your tax returns for the year so I could see for myself?
Amen. This is exactly what Jesus meant when he said:
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.
I keep hearing how wonderful and ethical Quixtar is, but full disclosure is strangely absent.
Sometimes, someone will show you a check they've received. Or will tell you that someone else will soon be receiving a check for a certain amount of money. They'll tell you the number, in detail and all.
Ask about their expenses, and how much of that check really goes to their downlines, and suddenly they seem a lot less interested in the details.
I thought it was funny that I was the only one not in a suit (even out of the new recruits)...
Generally, participants are told to "dress up" for the meeting. (I was.) I believe the idea is to give an impression that one is "in business" to those who are unaccustomed to actually being so; to give an impression of having the "trappings" of a business without some of the core fundamentals (such as an external customer or financial accountability).
I am a new ibo in this business and have several concerns about it.
1. When we were shown the plan we were told that all we had to do was 100pts a month, our upline failed to mention that we had to have 50 client/member points also to recieve any payment for our points.
2. We were told in the plan that anyone in our downline that did thier points would get payment from quixstar, we just found out this information was incorrect, the payment comes from our virtual office, money that we earned.
2. We were also told that once we reached Q12 qualification (7500 pts) that our bonuses would exceed $18,000 this does not apply unless you have a side volume of 3000 pts. (we also just found that out). Which was not explained to us or any of our downline when we were showed the plan.
3. We were asked to attend a weekend spring leadership seminar in Kentucky and were told we "needed" to attend it. When we declined as my wife works full time and we have 4 children who would need child care not to mention the fact that the seminar cost is $110.00 our upline started acting very strange. I called then to tell them I had several people scheduled to show the plan to the week after the meeting and was told by our upline that they would not be available as they wanted to be there for other Ibo's that had actually attended the leadership meeting. They also stated that the ibo's who attend the meeting had shown the initiative and sacrifice to grow in the business and that if i did not attend the meeting my business would fail withing 4 months. We have been doing this for only a little over a month and have already signed up 5 ibos and one client. We also have 5 more follow-ups with people who are very exited about signing up. If that isnt initiative and sacrifice I dont know what is.
4. After listening to motivational/informational cds (mostly motivational) it almost sounds like a new religion created by the diamonds.
In closing if anyone could please clarify any of our concerns or correct any of the information I have placed here I would appreciate it. It just seems that everytime something new happens or we reach a goal another hurdle pops up and we have to overcome it. The information comes to us as we question the new hurdle and that is with much probing on our part. Our upline keeps saying things like "go on faith" "you dont need to know that yet" We are strongly considering leaving this organization. Most people who want to start a business would expect all of the information before the venture and the way this plan is presented it is like walking through a maze with a blindfold on.
From someone who doesn't know much about the "system", it sounds to me like your upline makes money/points/whatever if you attend the seminar. Why else would your upline be more supportive of someone who attended a "leadership" seminar than someone who didn't?
Secondly, if you read this whole thread and countless other threads out there you'll realize that there are many more naysayers with much more convincing arguments than there are supporters. And the supporters that are out there can't even explain how it all works in the grand scheme of things and usually end up resorting to personal insults. I'm sorry but I could never just "go on faith". That's a fools bet 99% of the time. Maybe it works for the other 1% but I'd rather stick with my day job than take a gamble like that. :)
I may not be the smartest man in the world but none of it adds up if you apply any logical reasoning. If your gut tells you that you're better off leaving - go with your gut. Most people will tell you from real, actual experience that your gut is going to be right most of the time.
Just my $.02. Tripp out!
Hello,
I have recently been showed "the plan" by someone who became my "friend." After hanging out for two days he invited my girlfriend and I to his house for dinner and a business opportunity. He seemed like a really nice guy and I was interested in making money. He told me that I could buy the same things at Quixtar.com and make money by telling others to do the same. He was also a part of Network 21, a business education program. He used N21 to go around the Amway/Quixtar name and never told me the costs of joining. It turns out that N21 costs $250 to start. I would get books and cds and get to go to educational seminars. There are also 4 weekend long seminars that I would probably have to fly to and stay in hotels. This was going to cost thousands of dollars every year. THANK YOU ALL FOR POSTING YOUR STORIES ON THIS SITE! After researching for hours about Quixtar I have decided not to join my upline, but I am going to become an IBO. I do not like the deception or their cult-like behaviors. I'm sure that some people like that type of environment, but its not for me. I am going to operate MY business the way I want to. I have learned that groups like Network 21 are called AMO's, Amway Motivational Organizations. They usually make more money from the sale of their "tools", the tapes and books, than from selling Amway/Quixtar products. I really don't think my upline even knows how Quixtar calculates their checks. I don't rely on any information that I received from them. Instead I went to the source, Quixtar.com. In visitor view you can check out the business reference guide. I have done the calculations for the monthly performance bonus and realized that you can make money. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO 100 POINTS/MONTH. YOU DON'T HAVE TO ORDER EVERY MONTH. Buy what you need and nothing else. I am very interested in trying the toothpaste, laundry and dish detergent, and many more items that I NEED. I have done price checks and found they are competetive, but not for all the products. So don't buy the more expensive ones. If I don't like them I can ship them back for free within 180 days. Your order comes with a prepaid return label. Oh, by the way, you can sign up for Quixtar for only $40/year. As for shipping, a small investment in my eyes. Just stay away from AMO's. Unfortunately, every IBO you meet has been sucked into their "proven system" and they are losing thousands. Doing it MY way there is very little risk. The hardest part of this job will be teaching people the difference between Amway/Quixtar and the groups that are using this great system in a very bad way. Remember you control your success not your upline. Always be honest about the business and educate yourself. Never rely on information from others. I don't expect you to trust what I have said. I know I wouldn't. Go directly to the source for all your information.
Well, Ben, that's your choice. In avoiding the AMO, you've made a wise choice. I wouldn't recommend joining to begin with, but joining Quixtar without joining your upline's AMO is the smartest way to avoid getting burned. Good luck with your "Independent Business."
PS. On another note, you do have to generate at least 100 points a month to receive a check.
Hey Josh,
Thanks for your response and the heads ups on pv. I'm sure that the 100 pv/month I need is not just from my own purchases. It is the combined pv of everyone I sponsor. If this is not correct, please let me know. Thanks Again, Ben
IBO - I signed up, I just did it! Then I realized it was nothing more than a satanic cult. A big scam. (I have a better chance at hitting the lottery, but it is a good concept.) Why are they mixing God with business? Why do they want me to quit my job and get people signed up? Why do they want me to forget about family members who wont sell out? Suffer and you will be rich. Compare that to Jesus? ..And he required all |
You are not off base. You have articulated one of the most rational and common sense appraisals of what is a rather confusing and mysterious business.
The sad truth is that you indeed may lose a friend over this and I'm still searching for other "legitimate" businesses where friendships are so routinely lost by simply declining to participate in the business.
Posted by: QBlog on November 11, 2003 11:03 AM