The Quixtar Business Meeting
Quixtar
| November 19, 2003
| Tim
Last night I attended one of the local Quixtar business meetings. It met at a local hotel and was attended (so said the official tally) by 208 people. There were three parts to it: an initial presentation of the plan, a break, some descriptions of some products, a break, then a "night owl" part where they focused on being "core" -- i.e. following the standard practices recommended by Britt Worldwide, who makes the tools.
They sat the "new" people at the front, where the speaker could make direct eye contact and talk to them. The speaker was fairly effective: Whether he knew it or not, he used all the standard mechanisms of Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) to incite desire in his audience and then portray the Quixtar plan as the object which satisifies that desire, and even left with a repeated suggestion -- which he explicitly identified as a post-hyponotic suggestion (that doesn't counteract it's efficacy) that new people would have trouble sleeping that night, and all they would think of was "the plan".
It was done very effectively: The banter was light, fast, and self-deprecating, the jokes were funny, and people were put at ease by being told (honestly) that there would be no pressure at the meeting.
And people were asked to envison and describe "their dreams". Their dreams, were, of course, generally materialistic objects. One man wanted a house by a lake. Another woman wanted a ten-passenger jet. Just for grins, the speaker tossed in more time for charity. People were asked to visualize their particular object of desire in great detail.
Lust is awakened.
Previously, the speaker tells us, he was very good at justifying why it was wrong to want these things. He would use his intelligence to explain why he didn't need a fancy car, or an expensive summer home. (Why was this wrong? Because he was using it to justify his current status in life, rather than questing for more.)
People were also given three warnings.
One was not to talk to friends about this: "Don't ask your friends what they think of this. You might hear: 'Oh, someone tried this and they lost their shirt.' They are not making money. Talk to them about other things, not this."
Another warning was to avoid "experts" on Quixtar. "You will meet people who know all kinds of things about this business. They are 'an expert'. I have met these people. They have charts and graphs. Ask them if they have money. They are broke. Do not listen to them because they are not making money, and they have not tried it themselves."
People: When you hear anyone issue a warning, on any sort of topic, of this nature, I advise you to run the opposite direction.
Why?
Because the warnings themselves are telling you: (a) there is a lot of troubling information out there about this business, (b) thinking about it in detail could make you oppose it, and (c) we're not comfortable with you taking a critical look at it.
This is not a characteristic of an ethical business.
(Christians: Is this "hiding in darkness" or "walking in light"? Did Jesus hide who he was and what he did? Did he ask people to not take a critical look at him? Did he not, instead, ask you to count the cost and consider the downside? Why does this business repudiate, in practice, his teachings?)
The third warning is that some people will tell you this is "a pyramid", and that that somehow makes it wrong. This was diffused in two ways. First, it was pointed out that the person who signs up the most people will do the best, not the person at the top.
True, but it's still a pyramid, just one with a slightly more sophisticated structure. My own sponsor's sponsor said as much when she wrote "legal pyramid" on her description when diagraming the business for me.
The second deflection was to show that a corporate org chart has a pyramid shape, and say that they made more money off your work than you did.
But this neglects a huge difference: In a legitmate organization, the money flows in from the outside. There's this extra huge entity in the picture called "the customer", and it's located outside the pyramid. Money flows in from the customer and makes a positive cash contribution to every employee: the money flows into and down the pyramid.
In an unethical pyramid scheme, the money flows up the pyramid, from the members, not from an external customer. And the people at the bottom are not guaranteed a positive cash flow, as employees are.
Employers benefit more from your work than you do?
First, this is often untrue: there are whole parts of a business which are necessary but costly, not profitable. Second, this is irrelevant: Calculations based on envy are often misleading; many situations are win/win! Decide on the basis of what is best for you -- don't worry about whether someone else will benefit also, or even benefit more. (The best business models are usually those which deliver more value to the customer than the seller!)
Some of the above may sound horrifying to you. It should, but it doesn't come across that way when presented in an upbeat manner, with lots of good jokes and self-deprecating humor. And, of course, the facts I'm presenting here were buried under all the other positive things you will be told: Descriptions of things we'd want, how Quixtar gives you (allegedly) time + income + security, what a franchise is, etc. If you want to hear all that, go to the meeting and focus on that.
But of course, it's the negative details which make or break a business, isn't it? The value of an offer is not found only in the positives, but by weighing those against the negatives.
(I wonder how the audience would have reacted if I'd stood up and mentioned a non-Quixtar member was at least 20 times more likely to become a millionaire than a Quixtar IBO.)
Anyway, there was another meeting afterwards which was focused more on making the IBOs "core", which meant keeping them going to all the functions and buying all the books and tapes. (I estimate a Quixtar IBO pays out about $2000 to $3000 annually in business-related costs. At a minimum.)
And of course, there was the check-showing. After asking us to "feel" how it would feel to have $20,000 cash, to think of how it would be for us, the evening's speaker pulled out and waved around a check he had which was allegedly for $20,000. Then told the audience to follow "the system".
(Awaken desire (puts audience in "receptive" state), portray speaker as having object of desire, cause audience to associate desired object with speaker's advice about following "the system", signing up more and more people, buying tapes and learning materials. Standard Girardian mimetics.)
But I wonder: Was that check gross or net? Did he have to pay his downlines out of it? And how much will remain after expenses? These answers weren't readily forthcoming.
It was an interesting experience. Mostly oriented around visualising "dreams" (material things, of course, not things of true value), awakening materialistic desire, portraying the objective at hand (becoming an IBO, become "core") as the answer to that. Pretty simple.
And pretty against my understanding of Christianity: We're not supposed to have our "eye", our "focus", our "treasure" here on earth. Not that there's anything wrong with needing or enjoying material things, which God "supplies richly". But in our vision "the kingdom of God" should always rank above material things in our hearts.
Instead, this was a process by which people were deprogrammed from their (sensible!) deprecations against extraordinary luxuries, and that greed enlisted to conscript the listener into the desired behavior.
Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. (James 1:14)
It was definitely not okay to be satisified with one's current lot in life. The speaker said something close to: "You will meet people who will say 'Money's not everything in life'. People say that secondhand. They have never been rich. [I.e. for them it's an excuse!] All I want is the chance to try it firsthand."
So it's not legitimate to be satisfied if you're not wealthy! This is 100% against what I've learned in church, about our satisfaction not being in our circumstances. Instead, dreams are here portrayed as things which are continually distant (and, bless Quixtar, "kept alive"!), and thus the horse is kept moving by keeping the carrot endlessly suspended in front of it.
Death and Destruction are never satisfied, and neither are the eyes of man. (Proverbs 27:20)
Whoever loves money never has money enough;
whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income.
This too is meaningless.
As goods increase,
so do those who consume them.
And what benefit are they to the owner
except to feast his eyes on them? (Ecclesiastes 5:10-11)
A former IBO observes this, too:
There is nothing wrong with having things. I'm not some saint who has decided to avoid all the trappings of material possessions in search of spirtitual enlightenment. However, what's the deal with Quixtar and getting STUFF? Time and time again I am left with the overwhelming impression that the biggest motivator for Quixtar IBOs is the quest for stuff.
We just got an email from someone who was sharing their "dream" for a super-nice, new, expensive luxury vehicle. Great! What other businesses do this? I mean really. Get more stuff. Get more stuff. Yuck.
My wife has pointed out that there is nothing wrong with getting stuff. She's also mentioned that Quixtar emphasizes family values and working to get free from bondage and the "dream building" is just a tangible way to motivate. Ok. To me that just sounds like a way to justify the quest for more stuff. No substance just stuff ....
When I dream I think, "In 5 years I'll have such and such skills and be able to do such and such in my business." I don't think, "in 5 years I'll own a Lexus." To me that seems to be a distraction. Once I work really hard to get that Lexus then I've met my goal... then what? Then what Quixtar?
The answer is SPEND MORE TIME WITH THE FAMILY. What person really, honestly and truly wants to just resign themselves from producing and spend all day globetrotting with the family? There are almost no self-made millionaires that sit around and "enjoy" their time. They have goals and those goals are to produce, not aquire cars. The aquisition is just the gravy.
Look, if you've read this far you'll know I don't really know what I'm talking about but I do know that something just seems very wrong about wanting to get all this stuff. It just seems wrong wrong wrong. Again, maybe I'm just a naive underachiever.
No, maybe you're just a person with a sense of perspective.
"See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith...
indeed, wine betrays him;
he is arrogant and never at rest.
Because he is as greedy as the grave
and like death is never satisfied,
he gathers to himself all the nations
and takes captive all the peoples.
"Will not all of them taunt him with ridicule and scorn, saying,
"'Woe to him who piles up stolen goods
and makes himself wealthy by extortion!
How long must this go on?' (Habakkuk 2:4-6)
One final observation:
My would-be "grandsponsor" swore to me that she only spent 8-10 hours a week doing this. She spent easily 3 hours talking to me, and said she talks to 6 other people each week. This meeting ran 8-11pm, easily (I jettisoned at 10:30) -- that's six hours. I didn't see her talking to any other would-be IBO's at this meeting. And she and my sponsor supposedly talk every day. At 15 minutes a day that's still two more hours a week! (Total now: 8 hours) Much less any other downlines she might have!
So how is she doing six more plan showings in the other 0-2 hours?
Amen. This sounds exactly like a conversation I had with my upline last week. Excellent essay and well-written. I have rejected the system, and I am currently waiting for my IBO-ship to expire. In the meantime, I cannot in good conscience introduce this disease to anyone I know in good conscience. As far as sales go, I am a salesman of sorts, so it isn't fear of sales, as "Systemites" would have us believe. Rather, I suggest that the truly honest person cannot build this business in good conscience.
I WILL TRY TO KEEP THIS SHORT, BUT IT WON'T BE EASY.
I AM CURRENTLY VERY PROUD TO BE AN ACTIVE IBO AND I DON'T KNOW WHY I READ THIS, BUT I DID A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, AND ITS BEEN PLAYING ON MY HEART TO COMMENT. PLEASE FORGIVE ME IF I JUMPAROUND THE SUBJECTS.
FIRST YOUR WIFE SEEMS TO UNDERSTAND MORE OF WHAT'S GOING ON, BECAUSE IT OBVIOUSLY DUSTED OFF SOME DREAMS AND GOALS SHE ONCE HAD. (SO I HOPE YOU HAVE DISCUSSED THESE AND FIGURED OUT ANOTHER WAY TO ACHIEVE THEM!) THE MATERIAL THINGS ARE MENTIONED A GREAT DEAL BECAUSE UNFORTUNATLY THAT'S THE WAY PEOPLE ARE THESE DAYS. I MEAN IF WE WERE TO SAY YOU CAN MAKE THOUSANDS A YEAR ON A PART TIME BASIS SO YOU CAN GIVE MORE TO CHARITY, NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO GET FIRED UP ABOUT THAT, WHEN MOST PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE ENOUGH MONEY ON THEIR JOB TO EVEN START A SAVINGS ACCOUNT!
AS PEOPLE GROW IN THE BUSINESS AND START TO SEE THAT THIS REALLY DOES WORK THERE DREAMS GROW BEYOND THINGS... GET MOMMY HOME WITH THE KIDS...PAY MEDICAL/ PRESCRIPTION BILLS FOR YOUR PARENTS....PAY OFF THEIR HOME.... BUY THE BUS FOR THE CHURCH.. THE LIST GOES ON.
AS FOR THIS BUSINESS BEING A 'LEGAL PYRAMID' THAT IS BULL!! THE ONLY WAY I CAN SHOW YOU IS BY AN EXAMPLE:
IF BY REMOTE CHANCE YOU DID CHANGE YOUR BUYING HABITS AND YOU GENERATED 300PV (AND JUST FOR THE SAKE OF THIS EXAMPLE THAT EQUATES TO 600BV ) THEN FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON JOE BLOW WANTS TO BE PART OF YOUR BUSINESS AND DOES THE SAME 300PV /600BVYOU WOULD BE AT 600PV/1200BV =9% INCOME BRACKET = $108..JOE BLOW IS AT 300PV/600BV = 6% INCOME BRACKET =$36... DEDUCT THE $36 FROM YOUR $108 THAT IS YOUR INCOME=$72.
BUT LETS TAKE ANOTHER STEP AS SOME SAID TO YOU HE WHO SPONSERS (WORKS!!!)GETS PAID THE MOST.....SO YOU SPONSERED JOE BLOW AND NOW YOU DO NOTHING, BUT JOE SPONSERS A:B:C:D:E AND F AND EVERY ONE DOES 300PV/600BV (INCLUDING YOU) SO THAT IS 8X300PV/600BV IN YOUR BUSINESS =2400PV/4800BV =15% INCOME BRACKET = $720... BUT JOE BLOW IS AT 7X 300PV/600BV = 2100PV/4200 BV = 15% INCOME BRACKET = $630 SO YOUR $720 LESS JOE'S $630 LEAVES YOU WITH $90 ( INCIDENTLY QUIXTAR DOES ALL THIS FOR YOU AND SENDS THE CHECKS TO EACH IBO SO YOUR QUIXTAR CHECK WOULD BE $90).
WHAT DOES JOE BLOW KEEP... WELL HE HAS 6 BUSINESSES @ 300PV/600BV = 6% INCOME BRACKET = $36 FOR EACH BUSINESS. SO 6X$36 =$216 TAKE THT FROM JOE'S $630 AND HIS QUIXTAR CHECK WOULD BE $414...SO EVEN IN THIS BABY STAGE BUSINESS HE WHO DID THE MOST WORK GOT THE MOST MONEY.
TO LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE IF JOE WENT ON TO BE A PLATINUM, YES THAT WOULD MAKE YOU PLATINUM, BUT AS YOU SAW BY THE EXAMPLE IF YOU DID NO MORE WORK YOUR MONEY WOULD NOT BE MUCH. JOE'S 6 LEGS GO PLATINUM THAT WOULD MAKE HIM A DIAMOND, BUT YOU WOULD STILL ONLY BE PLATINUM BECAUSE PLATINUM DEPENDS ON VOLUME, DIAMOND DEPENDS ON STRUCTURE.
FROM YOUR COMMENTS I TAKE IT YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, SO I PUT TWO QUESTIONS TO YOU:
1. IS QUIXTAR RECOGNISED AS A LEGAL BUSINESS IN THE USA?
2. IF A BUSINESS HAS BEEN AROUND FOR OVER 40 YEARS ( AMWAY/QUIXTAR/BRITT WORLDWIDE) IS THIS AN INDICATION THAT IT MUST BE WORKING?
I BELIEVE THE INTELLIGENT ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS IS YES. I DO NOT THINK IT IS VERY CHRISTIAN OF YOU TO WRITE YOUR OPINIONS ON THE WEB WHERE ANYONE CAN READ AND IN EFFECT PUT DOWN ANOTHER MANS WAY OF MAKING AN HONEST LIVING. TWO MORE THINGS THEN I'M DONE. IF YOU OPENED A REGULAR STORE SELLING GENERAL STUFF AT THE SAME PRICE OR CHEAPER THAN OTHER STORES, YOU WOULD EXPECT YOUR TRUE FRIENDS TO SHOP AT YOUR STORE WOULDN'T YOU? IF THE SITUATION WAS REVERSED, WOULD YOU SHOP AT YOUR FRIENDS STORE? THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. TRUTHLY IF YOU WERE A TRUE FRIEND AND YOU KNEW HOW TO MAKE EXTRA MONEY (OR HOW YOUR FRIEND COULD OPEN A STORE AND BE SUCCESSFUL) SHAME ON YOU IF YOU DO NOT TELL THEM SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE THERE OWN CHOICES.
LASTLY, THE COMMENT YOU QUOTED ABOUT AFTER THE MEETING YOU WERE WARNED NOT TO SPEAK TO ANYONE ABOUT IT, WELL IT'S NOT SOMETHING WE DO AT OUR MEETINGS, BUT I DO UNDERSTAND WHY THEY SAY IT. SAY I HAD A SHARP COUPLE COME TO THE BUSINESS MEETING AND THEY GET REALLY EXCITED AND THEY SEE THIS AS AN ANSWER TO THEIR PRAYS. AS THE MEETING GOES ON THEY START TO THINK OF FRIENDS AND FAMILY MEMBERS THEY WANT TO SHOW THIS TO. I MEAN THEY HAVE THOUGHT OF MAYBE 30-40 PEOPLE. AT THE END OF THE MEETING THEY JUMP AND SAY TO ME "OH THANK YOU, THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR, INFACT WE HAVE A COUPLE IN MIND WHO ARE OUR BEST FRIENDS IN THE WORLD WE DO EVERYTHING TOGETHER, INFACT WE ARE GOING AROUND TO THEIR HOUSE RIGHT NOW TO TELL THEM WHAT WE HAVE SEEN". I AM OF COURSE VERY EXCITED FOR THIS COUPLE AND WITH THE LIST OF NAMES THEY HAVE AND THERE EXCITEMENT THEY COULD REALLY MAKE IT IN THIS BUSINESS. WE SAY GOODNIGHT AND I NEVER SEE THEM AGAIN, WHY? BECAUSE UNBEKNOWN TO ME THEIR BEST FRIEND WAS Y O U ! IN YOUR SO CALLED CHRISTIAN WAY YOU WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO CONVINCE THEM IT WOULDN'T WORK. THUS BLOWING THERE CHANCES OF GETTING AHEAD AND POSSIBLY A LOT OF THEIR OTHER FRIENDS.
THIS DOES WORK, BUT Y O U HAVE TO WORK IT.
I have already "been that friend," Quentin, and it is a higher calling.
If one was not as well-informed about the reality of this business, one might assume that this making big bucks with a couple hours a week is possible and, in fact, that Quixtar is the beginning of "a new era in commerce." Sure, if it was all just that easy and simple, we would all be Bill Gates. The truth is, the deck is stacked against the American IBO, from saturation issues to tools, most people getting in the business now will not make the high pins.
Even more pressing is the issue of misinforming and even lying to prospects. In joining Quixtar, you have the opportunity to build business for yourself, and that opportunity, by itself, if used wisely, can lead to some limited (or rarely, large) profits. The issues of conflict of interest, lies, and misinformations (the famous AmQuix urban legends) are caused by "The System," which, by the law's definitions of pyramiding is illegal. Why would I want to sell this to a friend. If I could have Quixtar free from the unscrupulous profiteering of "the system," it would at least have some merits. As things stand now, it is neither moral nor really legal.
Why would any friend try to sell a friend on something immoral and illegal? If I can help someone avoid wasting the $40-$200 it takes to start this thing, I will. That is the job of real friends. Anyone can be a "Yes man," Quentin. It takes real character to tell someone the truth. While we're on the subject, I suppose it would make your life easier as an IBO if no one was allowed to seek counsel from friends and family. This business does seem to thrive on misinformation and half-truths. Do you really expect the prospects to wait until they've been fully indoctrinated to spread this pack of lies to their friends and families? You tell them to make the names list. You tell them to practice showing the plan. It's only a matter of time until someone tells them the truth.
Instead of setting yourself up as an AmQuix martyr, you might do well to re-evaluate your views. If your prospects/new IBO's are so easily led to leave the business, your sales pitch must be flawed/weak or what you sold them must be flawed. Instead of venting on people for speaking their minds, you might reexamine yourself and your wares.
Does AmQuix work? Yes, just not for those at the bottom. If you have a books and tapes empire to supplement your AmQuix income, and if you can use your downline to market your books and tapes, then AmQuix is an excellent business opportunity. Otherwise, don't give up your day job.
I would like to start by saying that Quentin is absolutly right and that I'm almost glad he responded to your comments, JOSH, before I could. Why? Simply because I would have had to force myself to be polite and understanding to you feelings and opinions about the quixtar business.
I am happy to anounce, that is no longer the case.
I can not be so kind in my words as my predecessor, Quentin.
A pyramid Josh? That is so origional, did you think that up all by yourself or did you hear it from some other loser who had no idea what he or she was talking about? Congradulatoins Josh! you just might be the single dumbest person on the face of this planet. The caliber of sheer stupidity coming from your only brain cell is stagering to say the least. Ignorance of your magnitude should be illeagle. You don't even deserve to be an American as far as I'm cocerned and you should be sent to korea for a while before you decide just how immoral this business is. And you call yourself a Christian? I think you're the antichrist. maybe you should visit the Ukraine where they throw you in prison being a christian, you flippin' cry-baby. Quick, go smoke some more crack before you develope any new brain cells you idiot
Interesting set of comments. Typically, I'd delete a comment like that belonging to "Dagwood" for being patently abusive, but think it might be instructive for other readers to see.
A pyramid Josh? That is so origional, did you think that up all by yourself or did you hear it from some other loser who had no idea what he or she was talking about?
Actually, Josh got that from my post: My would-be Quixtar uplink wrote "legal pyramid" down to describe the business when explaining; and at the Quixtar business meeting itself it was admitted Quixtar was a pyramid.
If such a thing is stupid or wrong, your invective should be levelled at the Quixtar IBOs who explained that to me when describing their business.
The caliber of sheer stupidity coming from your only brain cell is stagering to say the least. Ignorance of your magnitude should be illeagle.
Dagwood, when attacking someone's intelligence, and accusing them of having few brain cells, it's important to not mispell lots of easy wordslike "staggering", "illegal" and "develop" (to name just a few) in your put-down.
Unless, of course, you're actually deliberately trying to make them look good in comparison.
You are absolutely right,Tim. I did misspell a few words, and thank you for showing me that wordslike is all one word. To think, I've been putting a space in between them all this time. You were wrong about one thing however. I never said "few brain cells", for that is plural and would indicate more than one. What I actually said was, "only brain cell", which is singular and clearly indicates just one. When what I do is
attacked with comments and accusations like "immoral and illegal", I react. By attacking a business that I am involved in whith comments like those, you are attacking my character. Those accusations are slanderous and have no validity.
If the Quixtar business is illegal then how is it that it is still online? And why is costco not
illegal.
Dagwood,
Sorry about the typo.
What the various Quixtar/Amway "tool" companies do is currently not illegal in America, even though I understand most other first-world countries have banned such. But that's a dispute you've having with Josh, not me.
Aruging that something cannot be immoral just because it's still legal in a few countries is a fairly weak argument. There are all kinds of things which are legal, but which many people would find immoral or objectionable: adultery, lying, frivilous lawsuits, malicious gossip, etc.
As far as your character goes: It's possible for all kinds of people to do all kinds of harmful things without knowing. For example, a mother may feed her child "Brand X" infant formula, and later find out there was something harmful in it.
The issue of character only arises in cases where information has been presented. For example, if the mother kept feeding her child "Brand X" formula after hearing their were concerns, without researching the validity of those concerns, then she could be said to be a bad mom.
So, when one mom hears that "Brand X" formula has a problem, she could react by attacking the person who pointed to the possible problem, on the basis that it made her feel like she had been a bad mom, and it's wrong to make people feel bad about what they do.
Another mother might actually do some digging to see if the allegations were true, not kick herself because she knows was doing the best she could before she heard about the possible problem, and then decide according to what she finds.
Now, my grandparents made their fortune being Amway Distributers. My grandmother signed me up for Quixtar shortly before her passing. She was a great Christian lady and loved to make new friends and help people. That to me is what Quixtar does. It frees up time you could be spending with your kids. You basically change your buying habits so that you spend less by buying just what you need instead of all the impulse items they have near the cashiers in the stores. Plus, it gets delivered to your home. The IBO makes the profit from the merchandise they buy, not some company like Walmart.
Information is the line between wealth and poverty. The wealthiest people in the world are not the smartest, they just had the information they needed to become rich. There is nothing anti-religious about having wealth. Wealthy people spend time with their famalies and help people who need it. I believe that before slamming anyone's beliefs, hopes or dreams perhaps you should try it, get the information yourself and see whether or not it works. Quixtar works. It is exciting to think what it can do for you. Moms can stay home instead of working, then they get their merchadise delivered to their doors so they don't have to waste their time in stores, you've seen the screaming kids before haven't you? Listen to the tapes, read the books, dont' put a mind block up and just let yourself become excited about the opportunity. You may just find you are enjoying yourself, helping others and earning a great income in the process.
Interesting, the people can be so desperate for easy money that they cannot objectively look at the facts. I was open minded when I heard about Quixtar, I started looking into it with an open mind, and because of my open-mindedness, I was easily able to see that while legal, Quixtar is a giagantic waste of time. The company makes their money off of all the IBO's who buy tapes and attend seminars. The products are there to distract the IBOs into thinking there is actually money to be made.
easy money? Although you may think so, I know it does take work to excell at anything you want to do. It takes time before you start earning a serious income, and you have to put in a lot of work to get there.
As for products being there to distract, you do know you can get anything you can at the store from Quixtar, and you get paid to buy from yourself, and earn money on what others buy. I like the idea of getting paid to buy toothpaste from myself and have it shipped to my door. I'm planning on getting a new lawn mower this spring,,from Quixtar of course. I just dont' see how you think the products are there to distract the IBOs. They are there to help the IBOs. I know I'd rather shop that way than drive thru snow and slippery roads to get to a Walmart, try to find what I'm looking for and stand in line to pay someone for wasting my time with the profit. I'd much rather press a few buttons of make a phone call and pay a company for what I need at reduced prices, and have the items I want and a check show up at my door. Did you know you can even buy movies, electronice, appliances and basically everything but cars from Quixtar? Click,,Click,,Click,,,paycheck.
Hey, "emerald," I like your take on things. I remember a line from Proverbs (26:13, NKJV): "The lazy man says, 'There is a lion in the road! A fierce lion is in the streets!'" I guess you could substitute ice and snow as you see fit, emerald. Look, if you dupe enough people into buying "from themselves," you do come out ahead. Sure, you can work the formula and make money. So, what's the problem?
I take issue with you here: "The IBO makes the profit from the merchandise they buy, not some company like Walmart." Right, ace, you get a fraction of what you pay out on a product, and you call that profit? You're either hopelessly dumb or (much more likely) you're misrepresenting AmQuix as a buying club. "Buy from yourself and you make money." Dost doubt? Read rule 8.3.7 from the Business Reference Guide: "[IBO's] Must not say that a successful IB [Independent Business] can be built in the form of a 'wholesale buying club,' where the only products bought and sold are those tranferred to other IBOs for their personal use." I'm the only IBO I know of who obeys that rule, and it isn't because my upliners were honest with me; I have only found this out doing research on my own, while you sit here mimicking what your upline told you.
You are pretty brazen with your handle "emerald," sir, but you seem to be willfully ignorant of the rules and interested in spreading the wholesaling myth. You can't buy yourself into millionaire levels, or WalMart customers would be the richest in the world. After all, if you think you can get rich off rebates, how much more so could retail customers capitalize on rebates? The answer is obvious: it just makes no sense.
The only way to succeed at sales legally is to develop a customer base (Clients and Members), but you never hear that being preached by the AmQuix faithful. Maybe it's because "Motivational Materials" (overpriced tools, tapes, and seminars) don't sell to clients and members. Seems like a conflict of interest...what do you think?
Josh,
Goodness, never thought a screename could get anyone aggrivated. I am not a Sir, and I have used emerald for a screename for years, nothing to do with anything butr being my favorite stone.
Never said wholesale buying club. And yes we do pitch members and clients because it saves a whole heck of a lot of time having what you need delivered to your door than spending so much time rounding up products and waiting in line to pay for them. Members get the discounts that we do, they just dont' get any money back for what they buy. Clients pay full retail prices for whatever they buy. I personally have both because even if someone isn't interrested in being an IBO they can still reap the benefits of ordering what they need online or by phone.
Another thing, why be upset with anyone, expecially soneone else in your same business? I think you just need to lighten up. And for motivational materials, you don't have to buy them, and if you have a really good upline they will lend you whatever you want. I have listened to many tapes, and read books that I've never paid for. I've also bought the books at discount book stores because I believe that they can help. Or, if your really looking for a cheap way to get tapes and such ebay is stocked very well. I do plan on buying materials from my upline, but only when I need to. Ohh, and the seminars are also voulentary, and have a money back guarantee. So if you got absolutly nothing from them and find them to be a total waste of time, (although pretty impossible) you can get your money back. No worries there.
One last thing, Walmart customers can not get rebates on every item they buy. I've never seen a toothpaste rebate, but I get money back when I buy toothpaste. So your Walmart arguement makes no sence at all.
I personally think that quixtar could be a potential website to invest in. After you deduct all of your time and efforts into getting other people under you, that is your N.I. C'mon people stop fooling your self, this whole this is a big Joke. The IBO's are the individuals that keep quixtar in business!
Well, no use trying to help people who won't take a chance to help themselves. Basically, it works, it can work for almost anyone, and the people who say it won't either have never done it, or didn't work hard at it. It is also a great time-saver because everything comes to your home, no more dragging kids through the stores and dealing with little fits along the way. There are many who will say bad things about the company, but they'll still be broke at 65 while we'll all be sitting pretty because we believe in what we have.
I love the Quixtar debate: participants talk at cross-purposes.
Those with concerns -- some who have been IBOs, and some who have just been potential signups -- discuss the sales tactics, intrinsic ethics, and the average expected return on investment.
Quixtar marketers, on the other hand, tend to engage in personal attacks on anyone who disagrees with them ("you never tried / you were incompetant / you are afraid to try / you must be bitter") and state, sort of mindlessly, "this can work!" while repeating standard Quixtar marketing points.
Which is sort of funny because they're missing the fact that none of the detractors claim it can't work: it certainly can. Yet whether it's possible for a small number of participants to recoup their investment is quite beside the point, and is almost always a change of topic from the discussion at hand, and a refutation of a point not argued. A straw man.
Whether this is an accidental cognition slip, or a deliberate form of blindness, perhaps related to the need to market,I leave to the reader to decide.
I have just attended a few of these Quixtar meeting and am trying to be neutral here. Our biggest problem is that when comparing the prices of Quixtar with name brand products, the Quixtar prices are not just a little higher but alot higher. Being a young married couple we buy odd-lots, clip coupons, and buy generic. This with the fact that 100pv is close to 300 bucks a month looks like a huge jump from our tight monthly budget. I was also kind of turned off with the speaker talking about dreams of fancy cars and rich houses. I love my truck that I drive around now and the house that I live in. I think not having millions makes my faith in God stronger as we depend on him to provide for us. My dreams are more of a God-fearing family and a work ethic that can be passed on to my children. I was kind of frustrated when the guy was trying to push the fact that this is christian organization. I would be willing to give this thing a chance and help the friend that invited me if I could get some positives about this type of a system. I would appreciate any thoughts for or against this system.
I agree with you matt. I had a friend approach me about this and I would love to help, but I have heard a lot of bad things about the company that make me nervous to start up. I would be willing to work at this, but I don't want to be taken advantage of here because I am a college student who wants to make some extra money to help pay for college. I would appreciate any information that anyone has to help me in my decision making.
Tom
Tom, I think many of us have been where you are, trying to survive working and going to school at the same time, hoping the paychecks can cover the tuition, books, and food. If you're at that point right now, don't join Quixtar.
Can it work? Yes. Are the odds of it working for you good? Not at all. The second question is the bigger concern in your situation. There's a small margin of error on a tight budget, and you will most likely be encouraged by your "Support Team" to spend money not only buying product, but going to conferences and "tools" (motivational material). Do what you will, but I would caution against it.
I have read through both the positive and negative comments about Quixtar. I am a Quixtar IBO and I just want to be honest with everyone here. First off, I believe that there is no need to make personal attacks on anyone for their opinions, either positive or negative about Quixtar. This business does in fact work and Quixtar is an awesome company to be in business with. Are the products expensive? Some are more than your discount stores, other products are less expensive. You have to remember, Quixtar is not a wholesale warehouse or flea market! Quixtar offers the best products on the market and nothing less and they back that up with a 100% money back guarantee on everything! As far as the ethics and/or morals in this business. There are millions of IBO's out there, isn't it safe to say that there may be some IBO's who lack some of the Christian morals that we feel are so important? I wish that were not the case, but there are some people in this business who are less than honest. What has Quixtar done for me? It has completely changed my marriage because my wife and I have a common dream to shoot for. My upline has become by far my best friend, my business mentor and my spiritual mentor. Everything that my upline teaches lines up with what my pastor teaches and obviously with scripture. I have been involved with Quixtar for just over 3 years and I have never been taught to lie about the opportunity. We do show a 2-5 year plan and that is a very doable plan, but we also explain that there are few people who reach Diamond in 2-5 years. No one, in my opinion, has the right to talk negatively about Quixtar because they are an awesome company and they do everything that they can to give us a better opportunity. The challenge here is the systems that are out there, and there are many. I am involved in one of the larger teaching systems in Quixtar and it is the best place I could ever hope to be. It hurts me to hear comments about Quixtar being illegal, unethical or non-Christian because from my experience that is 100% untrue. In the past I experienced some tough financial challenges, but my upline was there to guide me and show me how I could resolve those challenges. He could direct me simply because he had overcome some of the same challenges in the past, (before being involved with Quixtar). That is the value of a mentor. Personally I recommend buying the books and tapes and attending the functions because they can and will change your life. Someone mentioned spending $2-$3k per year on their business and honestly that is possible. Try finding another business out there that can be ran on $2-$3k per year? For that investment you learn more about life, marriage, parenting, leadership and spirituality than anywhere else. What about these motivational speakers charging $2k-$5 for a weekend seminar? Doesn't that seem ridiculous? And after the weekend you have to find some way to apply what you've learned. I love this business and I thank God for the friendships I now have because of it. If you have had negative experiences with it, I'm sorry to hear that and you may have every right to be upset, but please don't judge the entire business based on your upline's mistakes. The biggest challenge with this business is that we are working with people and people make mistakes. I don't try to talk people into this business but I do try to show them what it trully is because it is the best thing that I have found. When I show the plan to someone I am simply sharing an opportunity. Anyway, if you are researching this business, base it on your sponsor and their upline, not on the negative comments you find online. The negative comments that you read online are from people who were not properly led into this business. It will take some time, but the work involved is sharing an opportunity with others, and it may take some financial investment, but if you really dig into the books that are recommended you will change many areas of you life for the better.
If you are looking for an opportunity to work hard at something that has the potential to pay off in ways more than just financial. DO IT. If this approached you and you are not the type of person that can approach people and get 10 or more no's for every 1 yes, then politely turn away. Because all BS aside it takes alot of work, although true you can make $XXXX money per month in 9 months, it's not likely. It takes time, dedication, patience, faith and many other qualities to make this succeed. You are building a business not buying one. Rome wasn't built overnight, but they worked on it every day. By all means step outside of your comfort zone and do as your upline recommends. But don't blindly go too far, keep yourself in check, if you need tools buy them, if you don't need or can't afford tools don't buy them. (pretty simple) I enjoy the company of people that are in the business, they are positive people with dreams. As are you, or you wouldn't have been open to exposing yourself to the opportunity. Some people, in fact most people, will be unsuccessfull at this. But I don't look down upon the opportunity, i feel fortunate that I was able to experience another thing in life. Literally 99.9% of the people that attempt this venture will not become financially independent. Nobody but yourself can tell if you are part of the .1% that will be successfull at it. So what you spent a few hundred bucks to start, thats only a pair of jeans and shoes that you will wear out by years end. A lot of the tapes are just generic motivational tapes trying to foster a little success in you. When I listen to some of the tapes it makes me feel good about myself, makes me more productive at work, makes me appreciate the things I already have in life. The books are books that you would buy at Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Books to help you personally develop into a more successfull person regardless of how you measure success. You can't critisize that. Anthony Robins charges people thousands of dollars to help motivate them. So $6 for a motivational tape is not that much, if it works. But you have to want to be motivated, cause listening to all the tapes in the world won't help you if you don't want to help yourself... Some people in life are go-getters, some people aren't. If you aren't and don't desire to become one then I recommend turning it down. Some people have asked how can this continue because eventually you will run out of people to sign up and the people at the bottom will get screwed... This business has been around for a long time. And there will still be plans being shown long after I'm dead and I'm only 28. Again, that .1% of people that are successfull at it will not be able to keep up with the population increases. This will be around. If your going to ger in, now is the time. I'd say bust ass for 12 months then re-evaluate. You'll know if it's for you or not then. Previous post said you are 20 times more likely to become a millionaire doing something else. Could be true, but very few people became millionaires without taking some risk. And that's what this is... an opportunity with some risk. What you do with it is up to you not the people who could or couldn't make it work. Wow, its getting late.... takes awhile to read all these posts.... later..
I just want to say first off that I completely agree with Josh, that nobody with a conscience would introduce this cancer known as Scamway to a hard-working person. Hey, cigarettes are legal, but are they good for you? Yeah, Scamway/Quixtar definitely know how to stir up greed in people. I too have been to one of these meetings, and I find it sad that such brainwashed Scamway reps would knowingly try to entice innocent people into joining their cultish pyramid-scheme. Tom, a word of advice: don't fall for their hollow promises, which they cannot back up. Tim, you speak the truth, man. You don't need to be a greedy slave to Scamway to be happy. I am happy even though I am not a millionaire, and I intend to stay that way. Greed has a price and Quixtar may be legal, unfortunately, but it will never be honest.
Quixtar is not a pyramid scam. Pyramids are where the person above you makes a whole lot more money than you. Quixtar pays you based on your performance. If you don't perform, you don't get paid. To me its just another job with much better opportunity.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to have a better life than you have ans striving for it. It is very biblical to dream.
I personally don't want to live on the US Dept. o fLabor's 45 year plan, retire at 75, and try to live off of less than 1/3rd of what I made my entire life, if there is any way to retire by that point.
The world is changing and people have to change with it. I'm following the principles of people who have made it, doing everyting I can to keep on their path and doing quite well. If I had never found Quixtar I would be making a little money having a job, but never having the opportunity to reach what we are now.
Life is what you do with it, I plan on spending my time with family and friends, living a satisfied life and not being a poor old woman counting pennies to buy milk. That is where society is leading everyone, and personally I think badmouthing something without giving your all to it for at least a year is foolish. You never know what you can achieve if you don't try.
As far as telling people to avoid it, they told Columbus he was foolish and the earth is flat. What would have happened if everyone thought that way?
Tracy,
The Quixtar analogy shouldn't be compared to Columbus. It sould be compared to basic economics. Quixtar does not take into regard the concepts of supply, demand and (most importatnly) SATURATION. Go ahead, read a book and get back to me.
Anyone with a BSc in Business has more business savvy than your average IBO. That's why so many people in Quixtar are not degreed in Business.
Does anyone else find any irony in that?
hey brad, i have done my mba and i like quixtar concepts, as a buisness major i think i love there idea, try it get out from your box, dont be lazy take a risk which means your waste time, when you lay on your couch.
All you negative people make me laugh!!! DO you relized that you work for a living? Do you relaize that you work for SOMEBODY? Do you realize you will not make more than your boss in the "position" you are at? Will your boss ever make mmore than his boss? Will anyone make more than the owner, president, or CEO of the company YOU WORK for as an emplyoee? I didn't think so.
Let me ask you this, why does a muti-billionaire like Robert Kiyosaki whom wrote New Yorks best selling book "Rich Dad Poor Dad" talk nothing but great things about Quixtar, Amway, Etc. The reason he does, is because he like that we are being shown how to become business owners, not sales peolpe. You will never get ahead in the E-Quadrant which is the emplyees status, or the S-Quad which is the sel-employeed people. They make a lot of money, but thier time belongs to someone else, and their is no gurantee that you have a job or brick and mortar business the very next day.
I wish these thumb-sucking negative weenies would get out of their pitty party and do something in life to help themselves and families instead of sucking the life out of positive go-getters that want the best for their families, and other families with this great opportunity from Quixtar.
Negative people are the bucket of crabs analogy. Have you ever seen a bucket of crabs that are miserable in eachothers company because they are confined, restricted, limited, have no FREEDOM? Then one day 1-crab out of 20 or 40 crabs looks up and sees opportunity when he sees the sky and the light, where there are no limits, the crab heads way for the top of th bucket and just as the crab reaches the top and sees and smells freedom...the crabs below reach up and grabs the crab that wants better than the ugly situation its in down there and pulls him right back into the misery.
Anyone who is reading this, put yourself in that crabs position, do you want life to pass you by and take you down, when you want to live life to its fullest for the better of yourself and your family ? Are you Man or woman enough to do what ever it takes to give your family and yourself your freedom?
JOHN-Silver in Quixtar
I respond to John's comments here.
When I compared Quixtar to Columbus it was an idea against an idea. Quixtar is an investment in your future. No, you will not make tons of money right away. Yes, you will struggle getting used to the ideas of buying from yourself and have trouble with the money side of it. It takes a couple years for your Quixtar business to get running, and it takes a lot of work and commitment to do so. It is not a get rich quick program, or an easy way to money. I have seen it make major differences in people's lives. I have also seen people get so discouraged at how much spent with Quixtar. The major advantage of an hourly position to Quixtar is that you are guaranteed to get money for the time you put into it. With Quixtar it takes a very long time for some people to notice any kind of income off of Quixtar.
The great thing about it is that if done correctly you will have a passive residual income flowing in for the rest of your life. But in order to do so you must convince others to struggle for a while to have a plan for the future. Nothing is guaranteed, but the program can work for anyone if followed by a committed person for a period of time.
Why bother nit-picking people's opinions and ideals? How do you really know what it is like unless you dedicate a few years to Quixtar and see where it gets you. There will be plenty of frustration but there is also hope and payoff in the end if you work for it.
I again admit that my first check was only $10.60, and that I did spend $350 the month prior. But, it will change. The numbers change with your sucesses. The more people you get on your team working on the same goals as you the more you end up making. I really don't want to be rich, thats not why I joined Quixtar. I also knew that it wasn't a fast track to wealth. I just want to be able to pay our bills and eventually buy a nice house. Our friends went through it, I watched them struggle for 3 years, but now they are bringing in $3000 a month from Quixtar, which isn't that much for some but for us and htem that is a big step up.
I know it works, I know it is hard work, frustrating and takes a long time. I'm willing to work for my dreams. If anyone does decide to join Quixtar know that it is a good business, but make up your own mind. Ohh, and if you are like me and need a support system you may think about joining the Team of Destiny. That way you'll always have someone to call when you get frustrated, and also have people working with you to build your team and help you achieve your goals and dreams.
Good luck to all, and don't take advice from people who haven't been where you are, they just may make it worse.
Greetings Tracy!
I appreciate your input, and don't take issue with many of the things you say. I think you have written one of the most candid and honest pro-Quixtar posts I've seen in quite a while, and I commend you for it.
But there is one thing which I must take issue with:
...the program can work for anyone if followed by a committed person for a period of time.
Actually, this is not true.
And you don't have to have ten years' experience in Quixtar to see why, or prove it.
Consider a town with a hundred people. Let's also make the very pro-Quixtar assumption that all of them would be interested in Quixtar.
Can "all" of them make money from "the plan"? Of course not. The first person in might do pretty well -- perhaps she'll convince 6 people. And the next round of presentations give us 36 new converts, 43 Quixtar IBOs total. Now when those next 36 start to show the plan to the remaining 57, what happens? Each of them will sign up an average of 1.6 people. And those last people -- those 57? No matter how they try, they'll have nobody to preach to.
So how many downlines are created in this scenario? We've got one lucky woman who generated 99 people below her with comparatively little effort on her part. (Her true story will be told many times!) But the average number of downlines for everbody else is something like 1.6, with the majority having none -- no matter how hard they try.
In this scenario, the reason so many fail is because it's built into the system: those at that top make their money off those on the bottom who are "struggling" and "buying from yourself", as Tracy describes.
If one IBO tries much harder and gains more downlines, they have done it at the expense of another IBO. If everyone tries 50% harder, nothing changes.
You can plainly see what I'm saying is true in the simple scenario I've described. But there are, admittedly, a few differences between that and real life. Does those invalidate what I'm saying?
One difference is that in the real world, not everyone is interested in Quixtar. So we don't have a town with 100 people -- instead, we have a town with 1,000 or 5,000 people, of which 100 will ever, under any scenario, be interested in Quixtar.
Strangely, this situation works in in favor of the "winner IBOs" at the top -- and, paradoxically, the less interest in Quixtar, the better!
Why?
Consider our hypothetical town again: If all of the 57 remaining people were invited to the town Quixtar business meeting and shown the plan, would they be likely to sign up?
No! They'd notice the whole town was there already! But if there were 5,000 people, but only 100 open to Quixtar, then it creates the appearance of a huge field waiting to be tilled and harvested. It also keeps IBOs in longer, as they re-market to those who remain who've already heard the spiel, or heard this all happened before under the name "Amway" (which -- please note! -- eventually collapsed, as this will too).
The second factor is that there are other towns. Yes, of course, but it doesn't change the way the scenario works. The analysis I give -- that failure is built into the system, and those who succeed will do so at the expense of those who will not -- is true if there are only 100 potential Quixtar IBOs or 100 million.
The only impact is that if there are more people available, there will be a few, even more spectacular "winners" with lots of downlines, and many, many more "losers" with none, and that it will take a lot longer for everybody to figure it out. The bigger the population, the larger the disparity between winners and losers.
And the longer it takes the loser IBOs to figure that out. Which also works to the favor of the winners -- the longer they can keep the people on the bottom in and self-purchasing, the better it works out for them. A slow learning curve is essential to keeping this going.
That's why there is so much emphasis on "keeping the dream alive" and support groups, as Tracy describes -- a slow learning curve, and higher retention rate, favors maximal profits for those at the top. It's all about the economic model, and the sooner you snap out of it, the better it will be for you, and the worse for them.
Okay, there's one more factor remaining: In real life, new people are born all the time. Does this change what I'm saying?
No. Consider the hypothetical town of 100 again.
In the US, the growth rate is about 1%. That means each each year, the town population will grow by about 1%, i.e add one person. Others will die and be replaced by an equal number of children, but we only see one new person per year.
Needless to say, that's not a huge help again. It means there's about 3 IBOs dying every year, and about 4 kids turning 18, and 97 remaining IBOs fighting over those four new kids. That's not enough to make "the plan" keep working for those last 57 converts who will have no IBOs beneath them.
But remember that in real life, not everyone was interested -- so say there's 100 people in a town of 5000. Then 3 IBOs die every year, and there are about 200 new people to "show the plan" to!
But remember, in this scenario, we assume only 1 in 50 people will be interested in Quixar... (100 out of 5000), so out of those 200, only 1 in 50 can be converted -- again, that puts us back to 4 new converts among the 57 IBOs!
But, boy, will that "keep the dream" alive! Many more plan showings will have to be done to locate those 4 people! And, to the 57 hopeful, it looks like they've got a lot more potential converts waiting out there!
But, in the end, none of these factors change the core facts: The "winner" IBOs still "win" at the expense of the many more "loser IBOs"; a loser IBO can only become a winner IBO by making life harder for yet another IBOs somewhere else.
And life gets harder for each new person you sign up, since there are few remaining. They will never have it as good as you do.
Yes My name is Vitthal Sopan Shinde.
I am Graduate Person.
I want to start my own business In UK.
Please Help Me
I have never been involved in this business. I still refuse to call it a business, it looks more like a cult and has all the characteristics of a cult. Amway/Quixtar is nothing but a cancer, I have seen what it has done to people. It will destoy you physically, emotionally, mentally, financially, spiritually and socially. Stay away.
I couldn't agree more marc! I can see that you've came in contact with an IBO! actually i just found out that a long time neighbor of my grandparents became involved in "the business" sometime back and it destroyed them in all the same ways you mentioned but for awile when they where involved and belived it was there life like must ibos they approached my grandparents to join and when they refused didn't speak to them for 2 yrs till their world fell apart due to quixtar!! so i must stress to everyone..stay away!!
I have learned something from reading through all this. Quixtar people seem to go off the deep-end when they are questioned. Thank you everyone for all your responses it has enlighted me.
God bless,
Scott.
My friends have recently come over and pitched Quixtar to us. I am afraid I will lose them as friends becuase I am going to have to turn them down. When you have a business there should be an actual product. I asked my friend what is the actual business of Quixtar - is it recruiting more people or the website? His response to me was "What do you mean?" He didn't understand my question becuase the real business is recruiting other IBO's and selling them the tapes, conferences, etc - not promoting the website.
I took a look at the website and did some price comparsions - I looked at washer/dryers and compared them to Sears - Sears was actually cheaper (By $100) So there doesn't seem to be any discounts or benefits by going through Quixtar.
There are posts about how you are working for somebody else who is making money off of you. You will never be as rich as your boss. Please remember that Quixtar is a business and the 2 guys who started it are making money off of you. They are making more money then the average company becuase they don't have to pay out payroll taxes or benefits becuase everyone is an "independent contractor". You will never be as rich as the owners of Quixtar.
There are claims that people don't work hard and thats why Quixtar does not or will not work for them, but isn't one of the claims? That you only have to put in 8-10 hours a week? Aren't you suppose to make tons of money with out working hard? Isn't that the point?
I did some research on the internet for Quixtar, I found a lot of sites with people who lost a lot with Quixtar - but still can't find one with the success stories. There are no claims that I made money with Quixtar. Where are the people who got to quit their jobs and are now living the life of luxury? I would like to hear from these people. (And I'm talking about the people who are next to you at a meeting, not the ones who are holding the meeting)
I like to look at the numbers - becuase the numbers don't lie. (I got these numbers from one of the webistes I found on Quixtar) Quixtar has $7 billion in Sales and 3 million IBO's. If you do the math - that makes the average Sales of each IBO - $2,333.33 (yearly). Those aren't good numbers, so if one IBO is making $250K a year - then a lot of other IBO's are not making any money at all. And these numbers are sales - not profit.
If you go into this, go in with your eyes open.
Quixtar is an opportunity for people who seem to be more influnced by their greed- call it dreams and are willing to go to any lengths to achieve it.
As an IBO my friends have become distant as I am seen more as a PV BV machine. The gist taught is one is not your friend if he is not contributing to your PV's or sharing your greed.I have heard diamonds saying that .
Other thing is that there is shipping cost involved which comes out to be quite high, so apparenly quixtar is making money off shipping also. Also they say that out of 3.1 billion sale , 996 million have been paid to ibo's that comes to less than 30 %, whereas you go to meetings and you are told that 70% differnce between retail and wholesale will be distributed.
To those who are considering being an IBO. I signed up about 5 months ago. It was a cheap investment to get a third income (my salary and my wife's salary) We thought that the income would be saved and start an education fund for our two young boys (5 and 2 yrs old). Now we aren't getting rich by any strech but we are getting 80-100 dollar checks right now and it's been going up every month. And all we have to do is change my shopping from the Sam's club to Online shopping and tell some friends about it. That's it...They didn't ask me to change religion or say I have to buy CDs. I read all these negative things about it and don't see why it's SO BAD in everyone's mind. Well it works for my family. And here's some points that don't have anything to do with money. Me and My wife are enjoying spending time talking about our biz together. We're having fun again. (instead of talking about Credit Card spending). We also are spending time with our closest friends again (they signed up) and any work we establish now I can leave to my kids in the future. Knowing I'm working to leave them something that COULD be worth something is worth the effort. and Talking to people about it isn't much effort. Also, I will NOT lose any friends who Don't sign up. If they don't want in then that's fine with me. So my advice is to TRY it for a year. If it doesn't work for you then don't renew. Each month I see it more clearly. I think you will too.
Buddy
PS- I live in Philly with alot of people- this plan won't work as fast if you live in place where your nearest neighbor is 12 miles away. (just being truthful)
but life at the bottom of the quixtar pile isnt so bad. I buy stuff, the quality is good, the price is ok, the convenience is nice. It doesnt bother me that somebody is making money off my purchases any more than it bothers me when I go to walmart and sams family makes money (not to mention the dozen or so other people along the line. whats all the big deal?
Hey, Quixtar has some good products. If Quixtar were just about buying some products online, I think most people wouldn't have a problem -- nobody posts here complaining about how evil Amazon.com was because they bought all their books there.
If you view Quixtar as a way to spend money, you're probably thinking about in a healthy way. The problem only comes, for most critics, when you bring "the plan" into the picture, and start saying this is a fantastic way to make money...
Which it is not...
I spent a year in Quixtar.
I went 1000 PV in a month. I bought that pin, 400 PV worth as upline told me it will impress the team and more people will go forward.
I spent (read LOST) 1000 K /month for 9 months. Here is the math:
Sure, some products are good. I won’t compare them with other name brands. One thing I know, in my self consumption of 300 PV, I was spending $650 extra. Here’s the math.
300 PV = 300 * 2.5 = $750
Redirection saving from wal-mart = $100
Extra money spent on products every month
= $750 - $100 = $650
Retail, what retail? We were sponsored by saying that "there is no sale! Just buy for yourself and tell others to do the same". Retail was scorned in every quest by saying that it will not be a repeat business.
Even if you do the recommended retail of 50 PV using client cost it will be:
Retail Revenue = 50 * 3 = 150
I am using $3 / PV as it's client cost.
Extra money spent = $650 - $150 = $500
Good lucks selling Quixtar items at client cost! It's hard enough to sell at IBO cost!
"System" Cost:
$60 Tapes + $24 opens + $200 seminars (cost of going, hotel, seminar in US, there is one every 2nd month costing $400 / seminar AT LEAST, so per month is $200) + $30 Kate + $10 website
= $324.
So it comes approximately $900ish (I'm in Canada) for just the system cost, add fuel and eating out when showing the plan and it crosses $1000.
Here is my problem: Did any one told you this is the cost of the system?
10-15 hours: My ass!
Are diamonds free? A median income of a diamond is no more than 90K!!!(not a new qualified diamond. many diamonds are not currently qualified, do some research, morons, some one who become a diamond is always called a diamond, other wise his group will fall off, like I did 1500 PV, even if my PV is 100, I'll be always recognized as 1500 PV, rather 1500 going 2500)
90K! Husband and wife working, my ass! I am 26 year old and I make 45 K alone, and I thing I am very underpaid :) In my last job I was making 54 K. When I’ll get married, and my wife chooses to work, do the math! I'm there.
Diamonds do work there ass off, more than 40 hours a week! They woke up at 10 AM alright; they go to bed at 3! All those night owls and Kate etc.
In a conference, there are 20 Millionaires in 30K ppl. Its 0.06%. Outside than building, 4-6 Households in North America are already Millionaires, where are you better off?
Quixtar, is, I'm sorry to say, is for Morons. I admit I made a mistake, but I learned my lesson.
99% of IBOs will NEVER go diamond, you know your chances? 50% or more quite first year, 50% of the remaining also quit 2nd year.
At a give time, a whole diamond team is a negative pyramid. i.e. Ppl are spending money and diamonds are making money from that money. Plus travel cost. So who group, as a whole, is loosing money. Because retail is so less!! Good luck retailing these overpriced products!
Bottom line is: Quixtar is suffering from a slow death. At least in North America. Amway sales in 1997 were 7B. Quixtar is 4.5B. D'oh!!!
March was their highest sales month, really! If you increase the prices of your products 10-15% every year, loyal brainwashed customers will continue to buy it and your profit will increase. What an accomplishment!
Quixtar IS a scam. Nothing else. Do some research all IBOs. Give time to ur family, and keep ur hard earned money.
Well I don't know what you were buying,but I changed about 12 things I shopped for(coffee-Paper products- detergent ect,,) and I hit my 100PV at a cost around 260 a month (Sam as I would at Sams).. I bought 4 CDs at 8$ and I went to 6 meetings (no Cost) and one big meeting($5 to get into that)....
Buddy
It was NOT what I was buying. CORE step: Do 300 PV. 40 PV ok 100 PV I might consume, rest 200 PV?? Try being a core and not doing 300 PV. You won't be a core. 100 PV is ok for family. 300 PV....unless family has a 1000 extra and are dying to waste it. Please share your cart if you want to.
you go to meeting waaaay cheap! which LOS u r in? 100 PV is for beginners man. And let me tell u a secret, ur sponsor would be paying for you.
4 CDs and $8 each? that's fine. In Canada it is $10. if at a whole, which LOS?
I was in Britt World Wide.
I'm in the Billy Florence LOS...I've never been asked to do anything other then get my 100 pv and show the plan...Oh by the way...I'm going to get a check for about 300 this month. (Half is refund check and half is bonus from my downline...I bought extra last month to send protein bars,wipes, enery drinks and stuff to my nephew in Iraq. ) Well worth it and I know Sams or Wal-Mart wouldn't send me a check for buying extra :) I just think it works !!
Buddy
Opinions can re-direct someones decisions. Ask yourself this what other business out there can let you run your own for about $4/month. And if your not satisfy with it your money back in a period not to excees 180 days. The way I see it any opportunity comes across me and makes the slightest sence I take it. You will never know until you try it yourself. Iam a new IBO and I just got my first check for $7.50 for just buying energy drinks and everyday use products and I admit the prices are competable to major stores. I usually spend $300/ month at bestbuy and walmart, but just changing my buying habit and puting that money towards my business saved me about $29.50 plus I got the check for 7.50. This business pays you on your performance and teaching others how to do the same. Any business comes with risks, infact almost 98% of businesses fail their first two years. It coul billions in loss or millions, thousands only the risk is not so great here. Thats what I saw. The $7.50 check might not be much, but it was motivation towards my success. My upline just went platnum in the business and it took him about 2yrs to get their. Honesty is the key to success. Please don't take this to heart Iam only expressing my opinion about the business. Anything can work if you believe in it and give it your best with honesty included. Thanks
Moe: Do whatever you want, please don't lie. As you say, honesty is the key!
Lie # 1: Any business comes with risks, infact almost 98% of businesses fail their first two years.
This is a lie my friend. Who said that? SBA denies it? http://tinyurl.com/4r2zr
Lie # 2: I usually spend $300/ month at bestbuy and walmart, but just changing my buying habit and puting that money towards my business saved me about $29.50
Prove it! Please put your shopping list ehre, i.e. what did you bough from Quixtar and I'll comapre it with wallmart. I could bet a paycheck I can find it MUCH cheaper. If this saving is from retail to IBO than you are being deceptive.
Again, best of luck, but please don't lie. Or at least lie smart :D
And buddy and all, wal-mart don't send cheque as they don't charge inflated prices either! I'm happy that way. Here is a comparison.
http://www.amquix.info/price_studies/julie_price_study.txt
Aziz, let mesay this to you . I have a proof that my upline sponser is making about $4800/month and somtimes even more. The thing is business is risky no matter how defensive you get about it. You'll need consumers in order to stay in business. Your missing the whole idea of this business. Why are you paying more at a quiktrip or Handimart than walmart? Because of conviniece plus Iam not saying every product that quixtar is supplying is cheap, I would be lying, but in most cases their competative plus it's your own convinience, few clicks and products at your door. I live in Iowa where it snows like crazy, now do you think I would drive 7-8 miles to get to walmart just to save about a doller? no. The beauty of this business is convinience and sometimes you'll have to pay a bit. I usually shop for energy products. Compare XS to redbull for example. I shop for simple stuff which some cases walmart or even bestbuy won't have. Colognes,XS drinks, etc. If you want to get technical about this compare the prices of cool water set cologne to walmart. I bet you quixtar is much cheaper. Ask for Bora Bora, Joop, American Idol, I bet you the don't have it and if they do it's much expensive.
Moe, my dear friend. So you have a proof that your upline make $$. ok, I'll accept that. But from where these money came from? Downline IBOs of course. 0 sum game. Nothing else. Of course there will be some expenses and it becomes a negative sum game. Besides, you have demonstrated that you are told myths like 98% business fail in first 2 year. Gosh! The one I heard was 95% in first 5 years, even that is much far from truth :)
Business is risky. Point?
Yes I need customers. If I self consume all of what I sell, I'd be out of business. Similarly if McD employee consume all the food? Sure it might be their own product, but they'll be out of business very soon. Quixtar stats: .23 customers / IBO. Even that included folks like me, ordered once in a year or so.
I live in Canada, talk about snow :) and eCommerce is Not Quixtar specific!! Delivery at home via catalogue shopping is a century old idea! Sears used to do it via catalogue shopping. Malls came after wards!!! So instead of driving 7-8 miles, go to wal-mart.com and order there :D If I had a nickel every time IBO start promoting eCommerce with Quixtar, I’ll be diamond :D Yes, eCommerce is good. Does that make Quixtar Viable, or --- non-scam thing? Is Quixtar the only one delivering items online? Why all ‘convenience’ credit goes to Quixtar only?
Products in Quixtar. Some products are great, yes! Quixtar got some unique products un-available from anywhere else. Agreed. As a customer, Quixtar is a great place to shop. Not for majority though, but for ppl like you who were already buy expensive products. Great!
But as a business owner, is it a viable business opportunity? You upline making $4800 from customers or ppl lured into promises of cars and freedom spending into expensive products? or money is coming from out to in or from bottom to top? Later = illegal pyramid, FTC says 70% sale. Former, all the best!
Follow the money trail, and decide yourself!
Btw It’s about to be kicked from England, and may be California.
Imran,
Buddy here.... Well since I last wrote in Sept. I have recieved checks of 84$ -362-and 343. Now i know that you can't save that much on a shopping list at Sams or wal-mart. You keep referring to the "shopping" it's not about shopping. It's about building a business. I know what you're going to say...but I was the VERY BOTTOM IBO at on point. I build it with people who want to try another way to make money to help ends meet. I don't promise Islands- cars - retirement, but I do show them that it's attainable. It's up to them to build their own business and I agree to help them all the way. Also the money helps. I deposited my 343$ check and then wrote my truck payment the next day for 319. It felt like I didn't pay for my truck for a month :) I'll keep checking in here to see how you and Moe are doing..Well wishes to all and have a great holiday season!
Buddy- IBO
Buddy! You are the most honest IBO :-D I'm glad for you. I referred to "shopping" when I responded to Moe’s post. Besides isn't this business = "Buy for yourself and teach others to do so"? It is shopping that generates the volume, no? And the ppl aspect. I'm more than willing to discuss it semantics. I was 1000 PV in my first full month. Was in BWW, out in a year, after losing 10 grand in 300 PV products every month, seminars, books, tapes, travel..
But first thing first. Are you on tapes, functions, seminars?
How much do you retail? FTC says you should be retailing 70% of the products at least! Even 30% self consumption is not smart but legality check first. Yes, less than 70% retail, you won't get downline bonus. See Quixtar business rules. What do you do to report that PV? Your self-use is NOT client sales. Read Quixtar rules.
You were bottom level IBO once. My point exactly! At any given point, 84% ppl are bottom level IBO. http://tinyurl.com/4dl8x if bottom level IBO is making money (bonus - expenses) than it's a legit business. IF not than it's a scam! I know many platinums who grossed around 60K but netted just 4,000 whole year for a super human effort! ask for uplines tax return. Schedule C AND line 1099, so you can determine net profit.
BTW you look like on right track, yes it is a part time business (if you retail, u'll make good part time money) for small financial goals like car payments etc. That’s how it started. Big money, I'd venture to say 70-80% are in fraud like tools, seminars etc.
Imran,
consuming from my business doesn't mean anything. My next check is $102 made posibble by people that want to try something different.I've just bought some paper towels and XS drinks and let me tell you it's awesome. I introduce simple products to my neighbors like the XS drinks and fot the ladies cosmetics products. My closest upline drives about 5hours every other day just to help me promote products mostly cosmetics and beauty supplies. Where can you get determination like that from. It's like a farm. Your not going to expect food the next day you plant something. It take time. I call it networking. I only show the plan to people that are higher level or my level. for your information it's only my second month and Iam duplicating like no other. I sponsered a friend and he did 600PV's in his first month. I honstly thing it's about trust and determination. Theirs nothing stopping me now.
You said somethig about pyramd? Your job is a pyramid because you'll never be ontop of your CEO,manager, ETC.
I just sponsered a friend and his getting a bigger check than I did. It obvioustly working.I understand I will never make a same as the people started this business, but my job doesn't let me multiply my income by 15X. from $7.50 to $112. You do the math. if your come back is your screwing your downlines your wrong because their happy infact their happier because they can make more money than I do. All my uplines have higher education than I do, Iam not forcing them to join all Iam doing is sharing. Like they said this business is not for everybody and maybe that's why it's growing rapidly. If everybody owned MCD's, then we would all be out of business. The process can take a while, but it's about building business with people business minded people. The key is honesty and having determined uplines to help you achieve, to drive the miles whenever you need them.
Imran,
Iam sorry to say this to you . No body forced you to go to functions and seminars plus buy CD's tapes etc. All I was asked to do was my 100Pv and show the plan 3times aweek. We have an open meeting here and the cost is $4 for IBO's and free for guests. I read books from library to help me stay positive about creating wealth. I think the functions/seminars/tapes are where people get the negative Idea. All I do is get all the guest I invited to the open meeting, After words answer all their questions they might have. if they join the business, I tell them to only share this Idea with people that are business minded and can understand the potential. Thanks
I go to some meetings. I go when my schedule allows me. I have bought some tapes and given some to my downline, but now the IBOs buy the ones they want. I do have Clients( my wife's school agree to buy the after-care snacks, and I have a few people who buy the cleaning stuff and XS energy drinks. Also, I didn't lose any of my friends :) If they didn't that was their choice. Good luck Moe. Maybe I'll see you at a function some day.
Buddy-IBO
Buddy,
This business is so simple, I don't know why people get this negative Idea. They tell clearly that this is not get rich quick scheeme. I honestly think that if you really work hard at it, you can go platnum quick. I met this 26year old at the meeting here in Cedar Rapids IA, his name is Charlie. He's been doing this business since 2001, He is already planning to retire. All I can say to the people reading this, Get out of the closet and change something in your life. Don't listen to the negativity just do it. Hey buddy I wish you the best of luck great things are happening here in Iowa. Stay fired uupppppp(:
Moe wrote:
Imran,
Iam sorry to say this to you . No body forced you to go to functions and seminars plus buy CD's tapes etc.
Moe, So Frauds are not crime than? According to law, illegal pyramids are crime, and so is so many financial frauds. They are not done by force, rather deception. So you are right that no body 'dragged' me, but that doesn't justify deception does it?
Moe Said:
You said somethig about pyramd? Your job is a pyramid because you'll never be ontop of your CEO,manager, ETC.
I just sponsered a friend and his getting a bigger check than I did.
Uh Moe...I think you need to understand what pyramid is:
Pyramid vs Job
This is undoubtedly the stupidest rationale for legitimizing pyramid schemes. Why? I should smack you just for asking... but I won't.
Instead I'll explain (ain't I nice?). All J-O-Bs are structured with the leadership at the top and varied tiers of leadership all the way down to the most insignificant employee. Graphing this out does sort of look like a pyramid. But that means absolutely nothing because any system with clear leadership looks this way.
Here's the difference. Pay attention. In a J-O-B, the people "at the bottom" get paid by "those at the top" for their efforts. In a "pyramid scheme" the people at the bottom pay "those at the top" for their efforts. That's the difference. Learn that and avoid the smack of my stupid stick.
For the more advanced students I'll also add that in a J-O-B the people at the top aren't really the ones paying the people at the bottom for their efforts. The customers or clients are doing the paying. Just something else to think about.
It obvioustly working.I understand I will never make a same as the people started this business, but my job doesn't let me multiply my income by 15X. from $7.50 to $112.
Please don't get me wrong, but...This 15X is easier achieving in 2 - 3 figure bonus. How many ppl in Quixtar male $1000 / month AFTER expenses? .01% (amquix.info, talk about math, DETAIL math there)
Better yet, the group as a whole is profitable? including every person who signed up and did nothing? they SHOULD be included? Platinum indexes I saw show a platinum ship as a whole will ALWAYS lose money. Try mlmsurvivor club or amquix.info or quixtarblog.com, I can post some here if you want.
And you are right, function, books, tapes drain ppl much faster, but this maths, money moving out to in maing top few rich while bottom one losing money is inherently flawed.
And yeah, EVERY HONEST thing takes work and risk. I'm successful at what I do. Because I put work. Thing is am I providing value? In other words, in this business of soap and hope, am I selling soap or making killing while luring ppl into fake hope?
Why Pyramids are illegal? No body "force" ppl to join them in? It takes work as well ;-) It's because negative sum game. Think about it, why government made it illegal?
Besides, I know some people who are divorced, broken up because of this business. I am not saying YOU are bad ppl, heck no. But this happened on 'upline' advice. This much control make it look like a cult. Business cult or business pyramid. My favourite is
Quixtar = cult of free enterprise
:D
Imran,
You said--->Here's the difference. Pay attention. In a J-O-B, the people "at the bottom" get paid by "those at the top" for their efforts. In a "pyramid scheme" the people at the bottom pay "those at the top" for their efforts. That's the difference. Learn that and avoid the smack of my stupid stick.
How is this a pyramid if my downline is making more money than me. Jobs pay you in efforts you make. Time X Rate= $. If you don't put time you don't get paid. In quixtar you do the work ones and get paid over and over. Quixtar pays you on effort. I think you got it twisted my friend. Like I said before, If every body was positive about this business, then we would have business. Negative people about this business is what gives the positive people a chance. - X + = $.
Uh Moe, I was once one of the positive ppl :D I ALWAYS made more $$ than my sponsor. I was his only leg and I was wide, so was my check! Was I in Pyramid? Yes. How? All money that top folks were making was coming from bottom folks. some folks e.g. you and ur sponsor might be making less than ur downline but overall money flow remains the same.
Pyramid => how money move; from the bottom participants to up or outside clients. Sure I made more money than my sponsor, but go a bit top and there were 'uplines' making more $$ than me BECAUSE of their downline purchases. Above my sponsor was platinum. Same case must be yours, as you tell your upline is making $4800. Your and your downline purchases and other downline purchases make that money right?
Here is a thing; I even have made more money than some of my bosses!
Enough negativity already :D Some positive questions: Have you read Quixtar rules?
Do you get downline bonus?
Do you have 10 customers each buying every month? or you retail at least 50 PV each month?
Moe, in case you were wondering it was me who made the last post, my browser f*cked up and I end up using my other nick :)
Since this past weeks my business started to sky rocket. I have excited customers that are happy with what their getting. I started to hit my 1000pv. Iam just getting bigger and bigger.My upline sponser was at the qualifications for platnum before I joined. The way Iam going, I gurantee you I'll be earning more than him pretty soon. He is excited to see my business sky rocketing like this. He can't wait for his 4% checks residual, because Iam growing wide and depth comes automatic thats what so great about this business. I don't know what happened to you if your were hitting 1000Pv every month?.
Any job, if theirs no customers then theirs no money coming in. This business has potential because they have neccesity products that we need every day after day. Let me in on a little secret. I interviewed all my downlines and made sure they were fit for this business unlike alot of people, sponsering people they meet at the mall and streets at 3.00 Oclock in the morning.
I ment let me let you in on alittle secret
Good for you Moe, I was 1000PV in my first full month! I was soooo excited and all.
I was losing money on 'expenses' like tapes, seminars and even doing 300 personal PV. And $350 or 1000 PV check wasn't enough to cover expenses of $1000 or more.
Besides, even diamonds, double diamonds, emeralds etc. have quit. I was just 1000 PV? 1 out of 1000 platinums ever hit the diamond level.....btw is their any Quixtar only diamond? I mean one who did not started in Amway? In my knowledge there is non. Doug and Amway weir started in Amway. (Tim: I think you know but there is NO quixtar only diamond yet)
Anyways, FTC says 70% retail, i.e. to non-ibo customers. Competition act in Canada says something similar. If your personal volume has at least 70% customer orders, and so is your downline, ALL the best. I also hope you are honest with people. I'm tired of folks who prospect and hide Quixtar name. Real franchises don't work like that; they are very honest and open about their success. Maybe that’s why we don't see many McDonald closing? But attrition rate of Quixtar is highest....50% IBOs quit in their first year, every year, since 1970. (amquix.info)
Anyway, see you around. Try http://www.quixtarBlog.com forum as well and share your ideas. You might learn some tips from old timers. There is a person who has Dexter Yager as their downline there. Every one else is Yager's dowline, including BWW, Fred Harteis etc.
Imran,
Good stuff man, But speaking of diamonds in the business I met about 7 diamonds in the quixtar business and every one of them was excited. Like I said Honesty is the key to success. It was a pleasure sharing information with you. May Allah bless you
I was at one time an IBO. I do not have the time to do this bussiness anymore. One thing I will say is that I believe this business can have its success, but only for certain people. It takes time (alot) and determination, which is true with any business.
One thing that drove me crazy is that no one is willing to share how much they make or how many people they have below them. What is the big secret anyway? If I was a diamond or made a ton of money with Quixtar, I would use that as a selling point, but no one is like that. I asked a diamond one time how many people he had below him and how much he made a month and he responded with..."We don't share those types of things, that is too personal."
Marce,
They could have anywhere from 6 legs to 200000 legs to go diamond. If you went platnum and help 6 people to get to platnum then your a diamond. I hope i answered your question. Thanks
Oh Thanks Moe, Allah bless u too, :D
I was extremely excited at the verge of bankcruptcy at 1500 PV.
Marce, I hear ya!
Well, all I have to say is information, knowledge is power. Moe, you are here and you are reading. You go Diamond or CAM, You have the info. I was stupid enough not to research on net. In that case, I wish you best of luck. One word: 70% Retail, no 100% personal consumption to all peeps in ur team and u r good to go.
Dagwood,
It is funny to see your initial comment about Josh and saying that he is a bad American when you yourself are defending a foreign company.
Yep, you genius!
Alticor is the parent company for Quixtar/Amway. They posted $6.2 billion in sales for 2004.
Nearly 70% of those sales came from Asia, not the US.
There are 130 retail Amway stores in China supporting their economy, not ours.
They currently have 130,000 sales reps employed in China.
ALL 180 products it sells are made in China at its 141,000 sq ft factory in Gaungzhou, China.
Amway employs 13,000 DIRECT employees worldwide, 3,300 (25% of their TOTAL employees) work at this China factory.
All of the above are FACTS, not someone just talking out the small hole placed below their waistline.
You might want to take a long look before calling someone a bad American.....
guys plz..suggest me..some one approached me to join quixtar business..am a research scholar earning some $1200 permonth(with a fee waive)...
i have some doubts here
1.whether an ibo need to make 100pv each n evrymonth..
2.in what time he will reach for earning a 50k per anum thru this business..n how much on average an IBO need to spend on this business..
plz gimme ur honest sugestions in this new year..
thnx..
1.whether an ibo need to make 100pv each n evrymonth..
Well yes, you need to make 100 PV EVERY month, if you are serious, then 300 PV. Of course ppl join Quixtar if they are 'serious', no body throws sign up money just for nothing. Diamonds will make statements like redirect your buying power and their 6 year old daughter make 100 PV a month in vitamins and stuff and 300 PV is a joke. Well 300 PV => $800 bucks even more. Do you spend that much on shopping every month. No? I thought so. So what happens when you don't make 100 PV and your downline make say 10,000 PV? You don't get any $$. you need to be above your downline bonus level, or have two downline doing serious PV. Even then, you break a platinum, you need to be a platinum to get $800 'residual income'.
Also if you don't, upline won't be interested to show plan in your downline and all the other help. You have to follow 9 core steps.
http://plucks.blogspot.com/2004/12/9-steps-of-core.html
2.in what time he will reach for earning a 50k per anum thru this business..n how much on average an IBO need to spend on this business..
Near emerald I guess. I heard platinum gorssed $50 k but their expenses were $50 K in products, travel, system, seminars etc. etc.
(http://www.quixtarblog.com/forum , many platinums there)
BUT the odds are very low. Besides, according to pyramid maths, you need to have a group losing that much money. Is that some thing you can tolerate? Most of them, 99% of them will never even make any net income and will quite eventually.
http://tinyurl.com/4dl8x
BTW rahul, some Gala LOS ibo approached you? BWW?
WE are just new to this business and we are not affected with all the negative comments. we are just a month old & we are getting alot of regular customers. Never bought stuffs for our own consumption everything from our customers. well this is just a part time business, there's no harm in trying. we'll see in a year if this business doesn't work for us, then we call it quits. but for now we got 4 schools, 1 hospital, 3 homecare facilities as our regular customers (cleaning products,papertowels,coffee etc.) we are planning to invite the man at their purchasing department to join this business, so we're like kind of excited. we started early december. for our first orders we got over 300 pv & for this month another 300 pvs from our 8 customers. so everyone out who are planning to join this business. what is $47.37 sign up fee. take the risk & be aggressive!
Vinnah,
Great job, you'll be glad that you're in this business, regardless of what others say. I've been in it only 9 months and have collected over 400$ a month now. If you stay the course the business will be worth the work. Good Luck.
Buddy-IBO
Retailing IS great. Thats the real business, move the product from warehouses to END customer and you'll be paid. I don't think any negativity is directed towards retail.
AHHHH same old Misconceptions and contradictions on yet another message board. What more will I find?The amquix debate lives on as the day is long.
It's like The MCCoy's and the Hatfields!
How do anti Quixtar people have so much time to post about stuff they know NOTHING about? It might be the welfare check they get so they can run down to the local walmart to SAVE a buck or two. WOE IS ME says the lowly anti quix people.
AHHH, same old IBO rhetoric.
It's always funny to see that the common response from the IBO is that we critics know NOTHING about Amway/Quixtar when the only thing that comes out of their mouths is the tapespeak we've heard thousands of times before.
C'mon, Man, Is that all you can come up with?
How do anti Quixtar people have so much time to post about stuff they know NOTHING about?
My dear IBO! Most of us had been IBOs. We know MORE about the business then you do. Tell us what we don't?
It might be the welfare check they get so they can run down to the local walmart to SAVE a buck or two. WOE IS ME says the lowly anti quix people.
Generalize all you want baby! One thing I gotta tell ya! Labeling whole bunch of people is called stereo typing nd leads to racism. And if you wanna put a label, put a right one. I know MANY critics in person and none of them are on welfare :) We just love to make fun of your stupid illegal business and celebrate our freedom from this stupid s*** called Quixtar.
As always, a pleasure to hear personal attacks from IBO. All it tells us taht you got nothing else to say to defend your business. So thanks for
proving out point :)
CORE IBOs. If you just go out and Show the plan rather than break your head with someone who is not open minded, you would make more money. I would recommend the tape "Pigs Dont know Pigs Stink". By the way since you are also not in my LOS, i wouldnt make money on that tape from you :))
everyone above that is negative needs to get involved in quixtar.Most of you don't even know how to spell and you are upset at IBO's you people just don't have anything better to do.I thought the samething a few years ago I stopped complaining about it and went out to try to prove quixtar wrong and started to make money and countless new friends.So you people can say anything you want but the truth is the truth,and the only reason this site is running is because truth hurts.
Ha ha: How much was your last check?
and the only reason this site is running is because truth hurts.
str8 up gold yo.
maybe if you you people were as smart as you think you are you would check out what the F.T C has to say about this business get the facts people.
FTC, and Chief legal officer of Quixtar Sharon Grider, boths says 70% products HAVE to be sold to end customer.
http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_70_percent_rule_explained.html
And they both agree that not doing so is running an illegal pyramid scheme.
Happy?
FTC investigated Quixtar and in 1979, it was proved legal.
Is it now? Not what I saw.
Btw ha ha, I'm still waiting for the $$ amount of your last PV check. How much did you retail? How mcuh PV your downline did? How much of that was retail?
Successful people are always looking for opportunities to help others. Unsuccessful people are always asking, "What's in it for me?"-- Brian Tracy
Perhaps you should explain that to Bill Gates. I've read his biography, and he seems to have been utterly selfish. Yet he seems to have done fine financially.
Or perhaps your theory is just wrong.
I love this thread- it's way better than the XS energy drink blog (google that for fun)
Imran- nice to see you here. I love the way that so many of the most vile pro-Quix comments are anonymous and/or poorly spelled.
I bust a gut reading the regurgitated tapespeak of the fired up IBO's. You should listen to them- after all, they just want to help.
Just remember- 3 will get you free, 6 will get you rich - just as long as you have the SOT parameters!
This blog is great isn't it :) There are few reasons I like it:
1) It's not about Quixtar only. In fact, less than 5% entries are about Quixtar. (Not that I don't like the websites only about Quixtar, in fact the opposite is true), it's just something that reflects an average American thinking and percentage of thought he gave to Quixtar / Amway.
Which is: Amway / Quixtar = bad. So what’s new?
2) It attracts many ..uh...hardcore right wing nut jobs who answers every thing the same way, "There is nothing wrong with driving big fuel consuming SUVs, there is neither a fuel problem nor environment, how dare u question president for the self created unnecessary wars, how could u say Quixtar is not the best of the best business, why do you hate freedom" Beats jokes.com :)
Hang around, a lot of fun here ;)
Imran,
Hey, but don't also forget about the liberals who log on and make twisted assertions but then don't want to defend them with anything like evidence or facts. :-)
There must be! But as you may have noticed, I hang around only in Quixtar area and I was talking about that.
Oh.
Then to what does this apply...
hardcore right wing nut jobs who answers every thing the same way, "There is nothing wrong with driving big fuel consuming SUVs, there is neither a fuel problem nor environment, how dare u question president for the self created unnecessary wars, how could u say Quixtar is not the best of the best business...
The last part -- about Quixtar and "freedom" (omitted from quote), definitely: I agree we see that all the time.
But about that other stuff -- I think you're just wrong there, Imran. For example, I couldn't find any general discussion about environmentalism, Iraq, SUVs -- much less the specific positions you suggest -- under those areas.
I would agree that Quixtar is a frequently "right wing" phenomenon. But as far as you seeing evidence that people who argue for Quixtar specifically argue the positions you claim -- I'm just not seeing it anywhere on this blog.
If I had to guess, unless I'm missing something (possible), I'd say either that you're remembering it from another place, or that you're just inferring that every IBO that posts here is a "right wing nut job", rather than closer to your own views.
After all, you also were an IBO.
Yup, I was of militant type, young and stupid. More dangerous than a 'nut job'. I'll blog about the types soon. (You are surprised that there are more than one type, aren't you?)
And no, as I said, I don't read those areas in ur blog, but you do agree that those ppl exist right? in the world. Much like our 'tree huggers' (my brother), 'take ur cloths off and hump any thing that moves' liberals, 'dont stay at senate and bash bush to win election' leftists etc. :)
I was watching fear factor. So to make it clear, Outside Quixtar, I haven't found any "Right wing nut job" in ur blog. u r right wing, but misses nut job ;) Nut job is a person who refuse to agree other wise. (welcome to my dictionary).
On other boards, yes. In real life, yes. I have seen them there.
This has been quite informative. I've been reading up on Quixtar over the 'Net and it seems to me that there are two things going on:
1) A system in which you can buy things at a discount, with cash back (not really paying yourself, but then I play with semantics)
2) Another system inside the system in which motivational products are sold to other members of the group, all of whom are down-line from the seller.
I went to a Quixtar gathering and found most of my questions redirected, avoided or answered couched in the vaguest possible terms, and only after some thought (having a good memory for the spoken word helps) could I figure out the answer.
There are several things that make me wary:
1) The best way to earn money from a business is to own it: you get the best tax breaks, profits go to you and so on. When I asked this question of the members in the meeting, I was told various things, in the end the answer was no. The best answer I got was that Quixtar is a private company, and that no IBO will ever have any ownership in it.
2) I thought the most reasonable part of the deal was to buy the things at a much reduced rate with the cashback. That was about the first half hour of the 2.5 hour long speech. The rest was about recruiting other people and then selling them motivational books, tapes and CDs, and getting them to attend functions. I'm not a salesperson, so this approach clashed with my personality. I also found myself asking the question of where all the money came from. The last time I checked, the only entities that could creat money, and only at the risk of horribly increased rates of inflation, were banks. Seeing as Quixtar doesn't lend any money, it has to come from somewhere. I haven't been able to figure out where.
3) I was told repeatedly that the "best thing to do is join the program". The speaker even told me "don't think too much, just join the program" (I have to admit I'm probably paraphrasing here, the gist is correct, but I don't think I have that last quote verbatim)
Another thing that worries me is that the person who invited me is an intelligent, sucessful young woman in her own right. So I'm wondering if my rejection of her invitation to join will reflect badly on her. Not that it will change my plan.
don't think too much, just join the program" (I have to admit I'm probably paraphrasing here, the gist is correct, but I don't think I have that last quote verbatim)
You may not have heard it as it is, I have. Many times. And ..... I have used it, many times.
Here is how it's done: "You won't understand many numbers. Neither did we. But you can trust me, you have got nothing to lose. Just join it and we'll train you, so you'll learn. Best thing you can do for you and your family is to join our team. Don’t you love your family?"
And at some times, it's insulting to people who "think"
"Some people know it all. I was the leader of that group. I knew every thing and I had no money. I started making money while I started listening"
In seminars it went over the top.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2005/01/fake-it-til-you-make-it.html
If you read the book, "Magic of thinking big" it has a Paragraph, "I researched small businesses and looked for the ways it can fail. Now after 5 years, I'm an expert of how can a small business failed. If I have started it, like many other people did, I might be having a business of my own. "
That's my experience. Read that book if you want. It’s there. And I don’t disagree with it for real small business. But a fair amount of research is only right.
Another thing that worries me is that the person who invited me is an intelligent, successful young woman in her own right. So I'm wondering if my rejection of her invitation to join will reflect badly on her. Not that it will change my plan.
No it won't. Although she and her uplines may pretend it. That's the whole catch. Cash your personalities to sign ppl up. My upline begged me like 1.5 hours when I told him I quit. He was at home and I was at work! He gave me all sort of relation ship and hung up the phone on the promise that I’ll attend seminar the next day and meet him after that. No solid thing in whole call except emotions. Icky!
Besides, if you go to inner circles after signing up, they are telling IBOs how to handle No. It’s a sales training to handle it. In fact, they are saying that "You can't achieve X level by hearing Y number of No" Majority says No to an MLM so it's not a big deal really. It's the part of the game. It happens in all sort of sales. And always will. Ppl will say no to something.
Best thing you can do it, don't waste her time by making excuses to meet or not meet. Just say yes or no and sign up or return her the material she gave you. Don't drag it. You may try some products but the risk of her pushing you again is there.
Only thing I recommend is:
- Try some products first. See how 100 PV is made. See if you can sell this deal. If you like selling. If you don’t, you’ll have a hard time from the start. And most importantly, see if they actually save you money. Quixtar.com is open and any one can see the prices. You don’t even need a number to go in there.
- Read AmQuix.info. That’s the only site I recommend. Read the main business analysis and see if it makes sense. I that lady can answer the questions, and explain you what BSMAA is, sign up if you want. (BSMAA is an agreement you sign up giving up your right to go to court if there is any dispute. I don’t like giving up my right but that’s me)
I hope it helps. Honestly, it takes few hours to research.
Tim,
I fully agree with you and want to thank you for posting the original post. I have currently read about 50% of the replies, and find it interesting.
I was an "IBO" with quixtar for about 7 months, and it was one of my biggest regrets. Fortunately I did not present it to the people closest to me, but I did lose some friends over it.
Being a recent college graduate in June 2002, I had a career starter loan for about $10,000. Upon moving to the city with my engineering degree my job fell through (before I started) and so I took a part time waitering job. During this same period I was introduced and involved with Quixtar - perhaps my good fate in life, so I thought. The waitering did not cover rent and loan payments, and I continued to look for a suitable job when I had time. By December I had a wake up call... my upline asked why I had no contacts and I told him frankly "I feel like I have one hand tied behind my back here. I need to get a decent paying job in order to cover rent and business costs. The job I got chosen for is frozen, and I'm not sure when it will open back up. I need to put the business aside for a week or two while I straighten this out, but I assure you I will at least still go to the meetings, etc." He replied, "Matt, I love you like a brother but you're doing the wrong thing. You shouldn't stop charging hard on this. In fact, this should be your reason to work harder."
In short, I got the job, and when my first paycheck came in my bank account had only $50 left in it. I alread had made contigency plans to live with a friend a few states over, which fortunately I was able to ditch. I stayed with Quixtar half-ass for a few months, then left.
The entire time I was in 'the business' I just couldn't ignore the numbers. It took 1,000 people or so to 'make' a diamond. When they'd ask at a function "why aren't you all diamonds?" I thought the guy was completely stupid and wanted to shout "only 1 in 1,000 of us could be!"
Anyone still in quixtar or some other ridiculous pyramid should leave. It does not teach you any sound business advice, moral way of life, nor does it make you rich. It leaves you deprived and regretful.
-Matt
Matt,
Thank you for your testimonial, and trying to share what you've learned with others. It's been reposted here for more visibility. As with everyone, I wish you the best on finding a better opportunity.
Thank you,
- Tim
nice comment rules tim...
sounds like this website is pretty bias already.
you must be a liberal ****. communist? some type of nazi bastard. get a clue. i am an ibo, and have been for three years. i know it works you dumb ignnorant pile of ****. hope your nice hobby of collecting people's opinions pays you well.
p.s kiss my ibo ***.
Interesting. Very interesting. If your Quixtar business is so great, why you even care if some one blogs about it? Are they not allowed to talk about it? Why not?
nice comment rules tim...
sounds like this website is pretty bias already.
It's his blog. He can have any rule he want. You may start your own blog. And have any rules you want there. As long as you are in his blog, you obey his rules.
you must be a liberal ****. communist? some type of nazi bastard. get a clue.
And your point is, my dear IBO with amazing peoples skill?
i am an ibo, and have been for three years.
How much profit are you making / month, what is your PV level? What are your expenses?
i know it works you dumb ignnorant pile of ****.
Of course it works. It works for Top few on the expense of many other failures. Quixtar mathematics.
hope your nice hobby of collecting people's opinions pays you well.
Not any thing is about money my dear IBO. This blog looks like a hobby to me. I didn't see any ads. In fact, it provides people an opportunity to talk. What is wrong with that?
What is it exactly that makes you so mad? It tells me just one thing:
Some right buttons are pressed. Just by mere facts. Something is wrong here. Think about it.
"Truth". Hmmm... odd name to choose for some who clearly fears an open debate about just that. Yes, of course, I'm wrong, wrong, wrong. On what point? Ooops, apparently not sure about that.
I love it! I'm a "communist", a "liberal"! If I were the New York Times (who uses this trick all the time), I could use your accusations to prove that I'm completely politically unbiased.
You are hilarious dude. Good research -- what did you do, just read this one article or a small part of it? What gave my "Communism" away -- the bible verses? (And we all know how much those commies loved to study the bible!) This is funny to everyone else reading this, who knows I'm a conservative -- perhaps considerably more than you, by the look of your response.
Get a clue: my points are that Quixtar is unethical and generally unprofitable. If you don't believe those are conservative values, then you and I (and you and most non-IBO conservatives I know) have little in common.
Otherwise, if you're contending I'm wrong about those points, your case might be a bit more effective if, instead of simply spewing four-letter words of bile and seething hatred at me for permitting anyone -- even you -- to post here (free speech! open debate! see how I blatantly undermine democracy!), you actually showed some evidence to the contrary.
Thanks for being amusing! And you might look into doing something about that reaction of yours -- as Imran suggests, it'll do you no favors in the long run.
wow, it's amazing to me the lack of information on both sides of this issue..
first, i'm a chemical engineer/IBO, so no i'm not a complete moron. i also minored in business so i know a little bit about that too.
first of all, yes quixtar is out to make a profit. name for me one company (excluding non-profit orgs) that isn't. it's business folks, grow up.
second, WOULD YOU PEOPLE PLEASE REALIZE THAT WE DO NOT, REPEAT NOT, GET PAID FOR RECRUITING PEOPLE?!?!?! this business pays for volume only (may not be true in britt's organization because of the tool business, which i think is absolutely sick... i am NOT a part of BWW), it does NOT pay for people. if you have a problem being paid referral bonuses for volume that YOU redirect to quixtar, then i assume you will also stop going to ebay.com, because guess what ebay has? an affiliate marketing business very similiar in concept to quixtar. referral commerce is where all business is going, deal with it.
those of you who want to call this a pyramid, please do your math first. i am tired of reading posts from idiots who don't even know how to turn on a calculator but can tell that i get paid off of my downline's work.... NO, i get paid for referring volume in, just like any legitimate business. this may seem odd to you, but it's only because you're so hung up on the tools profit (again, which i think IS sickening in groups like BWW and Yager, etc.) and the idea of sponsorships that you can't take an honest look at the detailed numbers of the comp. plan and structure.
now, listen closely to this - for those who say it's a waste of time and no one makes any money... please get out your 2004 achieve magazine special issue.. now count up all the new silvers, golds, platinums, and founders platinums, i did.. guess how many there are, 4,703!
in the 12 month 2004 FY, almost five thousand people reached the platinum (or plat. qualification) level for the first time. but yet you say only a few guys are making it work. wow, again please examine the facts before you say moronic things like that. yes, MOST do not make that kind of money, but it's also because MOST don't know how to work it properly, with posture, with facts and information, and with intelligence. little hint, by the way, if you're a saleseman chances are you will fail miserably - you suck in the business. so don't say "well i'm a salesman and i didn't make it work." that's probably the very reason you didn't... no one takes you serioulsy b/c you come across as a salesman. you can't relate to the average joe. grow up and drop the act.
folks, do your math, quit considering google the ultimate research tool, and grow up - it's business, it works if you work it.
out
oh, and one last small comment for those who are business-LD...
when you spend money ANYWHERE, quixtar or not, you are only part of a much larger structure of people making money off of you. so don't come at me with the "it's only legit if most of your volume comes from clients" act, because like it or not, you ARE part of walmart's "pyramid," in fact you are at the absolute lowest level of their structure, feeding money in and helping all those people make money off of you... and of course, you have no chance of ever being in a different position with them unless you want to get a job there and be one step higher in their pyramid structure... the truth is this, outside clients in ANY business are still part of the overall "pyramid," it's just that you critics and most other people are unwilling to admit this fact.
think about it, if i eat a couple of meal replacement bars instead of going to mcdonalds and being part of their "pyramid," then good for me.. according to you i just got screwed though... but if i sell those same products to someone who is NOT an IBO, then that somehow makes my business legitimate all the sudden, and that DOESN'T make them just another level of my "pyramid?" my gosh, please find me some logic in that argument...
Wow, Robb. Your comments are, as Yogi Berra once said, deja vu all over again. You already posted this diatribe under another of Tim's Quixtar topics. Surely you can't say you have forgotten already.
when you spend money ANYWHERE, quixtar or not, you are only part of a much larger structure of people making money off of you. so don't come at me with the "it's only legit if most of your volume comes from clients" act, because like it or not, you ARE part of walmart's "pyramid,"
Robb, your example is called exchanging money for goods and services, not a pyramid. That must have come up in at least one of the classed needed for a business minor.
think about it, if i eat a couple of meal replacement bars instead of going to mcdonalds and being part of their "pyramid," then good for me.. according to you i just got screwed though... but if i sell those same products to someone who is NOT an IBO, then that somehow makes my business legitimate all the sudden, and that DOESN'T make them just another level of my "pyramid?" my gosh, please find me some logic in that argument...
That is the defining aspect of a pyramid, Robb - the customer. Draw a circle. Put "Quixtar IBOs" in the circle. Draw another circle. Put "Wal-Mart employees" in that circle. Now ask yourself, is there any money being brought in from outside the circle? With no outside customers to consume your products, you are simply moving money up a pyramid. Wal-Mart store 'A' doesn't get 100% of its revenue from its own employees, or from people at Wal-Mart store 'B'. It sells products to customers and therefore brings money in from outside the company. If Quixtar IBOs have no retail customers, their uplines are dependant upon downline IBOs's personal consumption for revenues. There is no money coming in from outside the company.
actually, that was my first time to ever post on this (or any) page regarding this topic, so no deja vu here, sorry jeff... i apoligize if it sounded like someone else's post, but let me elaborate a little more here...
"exchanging money for goods and services" - exactly!!! this is my point exactly... no one is arguing the retail side, but i'm saying when i prosume, the goods and services i receive with that money simply goes to quixtar instead of walmart. the 34% (approximately, of course) that would have gone towards advertising with walmart (or any other traditional business) simply comes back to myself and other referring IBO's in place of advertising... how is that so hard to understand?
the huge point you're missing here jeff is that in the prosumer example, the customer is ME. yes, i am an IBO, however i also serve the ROLE of an outside customer by redirecting my food, etc. budget (a budget that would exist even if quixtar had never come into existence)... it's JUST LIKE if i own a budweiser distributorship - if i drink a ton of beer anyway, i might as well create my own volume and buy from my own distributorship - how retarded would it be to keep drinking coors? we apply the same concept but on a much smaller scale (smaller scale volume-wise, but a much larger scale product-wise). I AM NOT PURCHASING THESE PRODUCTS AS THE BUSINESS OWNER (funneling money into the business for the sake of maintaining the 'system'), BUT AS THE END CONSUMER THAT WOULD HAVE TO SPEND THAT MONEY SOMEWHERE NO MATTER WHAT I DID FOR A LIVING!
You're absolutely right, exchanging goods and services for money is NOT a pyramid... and that's exactly what we do.. by the way, walmart is dependant upon it's "downline's" personal consumption for revenues, the only difference is walmart's downlines don't have to sign up... sam's club's do. so if sam's club paid referral bonuses then they would be a pyramid? in that case, cell phone companies such as sprint and cingular who offer money for referring other subscribers is pyramidal, since none of the people referring other users sell the phone services to outside (non-referring) subscribers, right?
remember, i am not an employee of quixtar, i am an independant distribution center. quit pretending that i put in $500/month out of my pocket JUST for the right to be an IBO - THAT would be pyramidal, assuming my upline was getting paid on that. All i do is create a customer from my personal product needs... DON'T CONFUSE THE INDIVDUAL (customer) WITH THE BUSINESS (only an entity). when i spend money at walmart (which i proudly do on certain items), that is NOT the quixtar IBOship buying products, it's me the consumer. the exact same applies when i buy quixtar products - it's the end customer buying, not the IBOship.
now, products for business use and samples WOULD qualify as pyramidal using your scenario, so i'll give you that part (since that money would not have been spent on those types of products in the abscence of an IBOship). i do very little of that though, so it doesn't concern me.
personal use items, however, is where you're letting your biases cloud the actual business defintions of consumer and business. you're mixing the two, which you're most likely doing because of your inherent biases against network marketing and because i don't have a storefront. i admit, having no store does make it easier to confuse the person with the business, but it's still no excuse for it.
by the way, i think it's great that we're actually having an intelligent conversation about this instead of saying "pyramid," "no it's not," "is too," "is not" like most people do... LOL
robb,
I apologize for the mistaken identity. There is a comment from a "robb" date May 28, 2005 on the "Amway / Quixtar can work for anybody! Right?" thread who is also a chemical engineer, doesn't capitalize much, and makes a lot of the same arguements as you. My mistake.
The crux of your arguement, as I understand it, is that you ARE a customer when you buy Quixtar goods and therefore there is money coming in from "outside the circle". Fair enough. I believe that is incorrect and I will elaborate.
First, I define a "customer" as a person who does not get compensation from the company in question. You, as an IBO, are getting compensated. That leads to this rebuttal...
I AM NOT PURCHASING THESE PRODUCTS AS THE BUSINESS OWNER (funneling money into the business for the sake of maintaining the 'system'), BUT AS THE END CONSUMER THAT WOULD HAVE TO SPEND THAT MONEY SOMEWHERE NO MATTER WHAT I DID FOR A LIVING!
But are you actively seeking the best possible product? I would argue that you do not. You are artificially "brand-loyal" to Quixtar products. That makes you different from a person like me who has no financial interest in Quixtar. I shop around for the best combination of price and quality. You, however, are paying non-competitive, higher Quixtar prices. They are non-competitive because Quixtar knows that you will buy their products in spite of the higher cost. I therefore argue that you are not buying products as a customer. Do you retail products to people who are not compensated by Quixtar? If not, then no money is coming in from "outside the circle."
How do I know the prices not competitive? Your own arguement proves it...
when i prosume, the goods and services i receive with that money simply goes to quixtar instead of walmart. the 34% (approximately, of course) that would have gone towards advertising with walmart (or any other traditional business) simply comes back to myself and other referring IBO's in place of advertising... how is that so hard to understand?
What is the 34% of which you speak? Do you mean the total rebates paid back to IBOs? I assume you do. You believe that, all other things being equal, other retailers are spending 34% on advertising and taking more of your money than necessary, those greedy bastards. You believe that you get a better deal by buying Quixtar products and getting a cut of that 34% largesse.
Well, I have researched the advertising cost incurred by Wal-Mart. For fiscal 2005, it was $1.4 billion on $285 billion in revenues, or only 0.5% of the cost of their sales. It's right there in black and white in their 10-K filed with the SEC. You assumed that Wal-Mart spends 34% of their revenues on advertising, and I just showed you that the number is much, much, lower. That tells me that, all other things being equal, Wal-Mart's prices are approximately 34% lower than Quixtar's. You can argue that you are getting a rebate, but, since your uplines get a bigger cut of the bonuses than you, you are not getting back all that premium price on Quixtar products.
by the way, walmart is dependant upon it's "downline's" personal consumption for revenues, the only difference is walmart's downlines don't have to sign up... sam's club's do. so if sam's club paid referral bonuses then they would be a pyramid?
Wal-Mart and Sam's Club don't have "downlines", they have customers. People who are not compensated by any retailer and therefore make their buying decisions based what they perceive as the best product available.
in that case, cell phone companies such as sprint and cingular who offer money for referring other subscribers is pyramidal, since none of the people referring other users sell the phone services to outside (non-referring) subscribers, right?
If I refer you to Sprint, and then you refer Tim, I don't get a cut of your referral bonus. If you like Sprint enough that you continue your service with them beyond the initial one-year contract, I don't get another referral bonus for your additional patronage. That's the difference.
personal use items, however, is where you're letting your biases cloud the actual business defintions of consumer and business. you're mixing the two, which you're most likely doing because of your inherent biases against network marketing and because i don't have a storefront. i admit, having no store does make it easier to confuse the person with the business, but it's still no excuse for it.
When did I say I have a bias against all network marketing? I thought we were talking about what is and isn't a pyramid. I think Avon and Pampered Chef are excellent network marketing concepts. They offer a product for retail customers as well as a business opportunity.
no offense man, but your definition of customer is the most ridiculous definition i've ever heard in my entire life...
from www.dictionary.com --> "customer 1. One that buys goods or services." there are several definitions that follow, NONE of which define customer the way you do... i don't accept your made-up definition. if i did, i would have to argue that customer of places like subway (sub-club cards), airlines (frequent flyer miles), credit cards (cash bach incentives), etc. are not truly customers because they are being compensated by the company they do business with. you think a subway customer shops around for the absolute cheapest sub? no way, because they are incentived NOT to.. does that mean it's a scam and subway has very few actual customers? of course not, please go take some basic business class before you try to make up a definition for the very terms we're arguing about... i will talk more about price in a sec.
I AM merely a customer of my own business (hence, outside volume is created by robb the consumer, one of several customers of my business), that point is painfully clear by now. by the way, my business receives the volume bonuses each month... they are paid to the business, not to robb the consumer.
so now you're basing your pyramid argument on that fact that i don't shop around as much as you do? on wow, that's a pretty weak leg to stand on, but let me address the price issue. i actually did a local price comparison using three stores. in all three cases (yes, including walmart) if you take a fair sampling of several product lines, including trim advantage, XS, LOC, etc. we actually came out CHEAPER on a cost per use basis than all three stores... walmart was actually nearly a tie, but we were much cheaper than the other two stores i sampled (homeland and a different local chain)... i used to drink red bull, now i drink XS (4-30 cents cheaper per can), i used to eat fast food for breakfast and lunch, now i redirect that money into meal bars and shakes (price is competitive with atkins products, and cheaper than a fast-food meal)... i would be happy to share with you some of the details of my price comparison study if you want to dive that deep into it.
as far as the 34% number goes, let me make a corrective statement on that... it actually includes the money that would have gone towards advertising, stockholders, and debt in a typical company. quixtar has none of these costs... advertising costs themselves vary widely based on thousands of factors, anywhere from 0% to 30% and higher... that 34% was an AVERAGE of all traditional businesses expenditures on ads, stocks, and debt payoff... perhaps walmart spends much less than most, because they already have the market and don't need to spend as much, i'll trust your numbers on that... point is, quixtar is able to multichannel through hundreds of manufacturers and cut out enough expenditures from several different areas (advertising being a huge and most commonly mentioned one) and instead pay that same money out in the form of bonuses, etc... all while remaining competitive compared to other like-quality products (example, you can't compare XX to centrum... do your research on that and you'll find out why... compare it to a somewhat higher quality multivitamin like atkins, which is very similar price-wise and still not even in the same ballpark when you analyze what is put into XX and how it is done... if you still don't wanna pay it, then get the daily... it's much much cheaper and still better than centrum. that's one example of a more expensive product that's justified because of the production costs, as opposed to the concentration... how do you explain xs being cheaper than red bull at walmart? etc.) i'll tell you why, do a little more research on walmart and look at HOW MUCH PURE PROFIT the waltons are keeping every year compared on a percentage basis to other retail businesses.. it's HUGE - that's where a lot of walmart's money is going in addition to the other expenses i mentioned.
you're right, walmart and sam's don't have "downlines," they have "customers." but again, you're using your made-up definition as to what a customer is... sam's does have a subscriber base of people that pay for a membership and have an incentive to NOT shop around... they have paid for their membership and they can go to one place for all their stuff, buy in bulk, and save time and possibly money. with the exception of buying in bulk, it's funny how i do the same thing - develop subscriber bases for lots of companies on and offline. the only difference is that sam's doesn't pay referral bonuses, quixtar does. as far as shopping around for the best price, many people go to albertson's and pay more for the convienence or smaller crowds or better meats, etc... does that mean they're getting scammed if they happen to NOT shop around for the absolute cheapest product? of course not!
so sprint's referral bonuses are not residual and are only uni-level... structurally they are different yes, but there is still absolutely no outside volume... same basic referral concept.
you're right, avon and pampered chef are great companies... i would just rather NOT have to have 50 clients to create any kind of real residual volume. i would rather have a business that i can patron (using my "outside" consumer dollars) and create some volume in a much easier fashion.
just thought of this quote - "Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded."
I now realize how true that is.. i just wasted 15 minutes of my life on this post arguing with a brick wall, i must be retarded...
honestly, you're grasping at straws, reverting to the price issue which i can easily disprove, trying to redefine what a customer is... your arguments are becoming less and less logical with every post...
i'm sure you're a great guy jeff, but we're probably gonna just have to agree to disagree on ths one.
robb and Jeff,
I think you guys make a number of good points, and agree with you alternately. First off, though I generally agree with Jeff's argument more, I agree Jeff's definition of customer sounds a bit unusual to our ears -- though he has good reason for putting it that way.
The salient point isn't whether you, as a customer, get compensated. The point, I think, that Jeff is getting across, is that real companies get most their money from an external customer base -- people who don't work for the company. If you'd view an org chart for a normal company, you'd see a huge block called "CUSTOMER" outside the company.
In Quixtar, that block is almost entirely inside. robb, that should make a huge difference to your analysis. It means the product isn't generating any value from outside, but is simply redistributing the wealth inside the organization.
As far as your argument, robb, that you can get Quixtar products cheaper than in a store: if it's true, then I'd say, unless there were other ethical reasons involved (which I think there are, but that's for a later day), then go ahead and buy it.
But that certainly wasn't my experience when I compared prices, and alot of people report the same result. (See this guy, for example -- Quixtar cost 43% more than Walmart for his groceries. Did you include shipping costs?) And I can tell you: that's not going to be true across the board. There's simply no way that Quixtar CAN cost less on name-brand products, which is why they almost never do.
As I mentioned above, the real issue here is "the plan" -- the part of the business where you think you'll make money signing people, up, not by saving money on products.
If you compare a real company to Quixtar, notice, again that the customer is outside the organization. Though, yes, sometimes McDonald's employees buy food, in general, 99.99% of their customers (just guessing) are NOT current employees. And notice that even the lowest employee for McDonald's makes a profit -- or he would not take the job in the first place. Money comes INTO the organization from OUTSIDE, and flow DOWN the organization, paying everyone a profit.
In contrast, Quixtar works by paying money UP the organization, from the BOTTOM, where everyone makes a LOSS initially. (Remember that they have to spend time prospecting for leads, and that's worth at least minimum wage.)
Then, to finally make a profit, they multiply that LOSS onto many more downline IBOs. It means that someone is always stuck holding the bag, and coming out with a net loss. And the more people who sign up, the bigger it expands, the more total money which will be utterly lost. A few people will be winners, yes. But they are created at the direct expense of many, many more "losers".
That's not a business, robb, that's a pyramid scheme. It's also unethical, the way I see things. Other people understand this. Please think about it for a while.
I wish you luck.
- Tim
1. prices - did you consider concentration and use the wholesale cost, or did you measure lb vs lb and use suggested retail.. i find it very curious that everyone who is anti-quixtar gets these ridiculously high numbers, when the reality is quite the opposite - competetitive at worst.
2. "In contrast, Quixtar works by paying money UP the organization, from the BOTTOM, where everyone makes a LOSS initially."
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG! when i, as a CONSUMER, buy products from quixtar (money i would be spending into some other company anyway, making the bonus check from personal use at the end of the month free money!), i pay the corporation for the products i get, then the bonuses (several weeks later) are distributed DOWN the organization, JUST LIKE YOUR "REAL" COMPANY EXAMPLE!!!! PLEASE LEARN YOUR FACTS BEFORE YOU MAKE INACCURATE STATEMENTS LIKE THAT.
And how is it a "loss" when consumers are simply redirecting their spending to a different company? when you shop at walmart or costco, etc. do you consider it a loss? of course you don't, it's being a consumer. for any company to make money, consumers have to spend money... it's not a loss, it's business. i am a consumer. i choose to consume through the biz that i happen to own. how is that a loss?! you must separate the business from the consumer - you are refusing to do that because you know it would completely destroy your pyramid argument, and you absolutely know that i'm right.
3. "If you compare a real company to Quixtar, notice, again that the customer is outside the organization."
AGAIN, and please pay attention this time, the money i spend through quixtar is AS A CONSUMER/CUSTOMER, NOT A BUSINESS OWNER! i purchase products that i'm already buying elsewhere (as a consumer)... like i said before, IF i am putting a whole bunch of money (over half i would say) into business use products and samples, and therefore going way beyond my role as a consumer, then THAT could be considered a pyramid. but when i, as a consumer buy my usual products from ABC Enterprises (which is only an entity), i AM a customer outside of the company. you keep saying it needs to be outside volume.. i agree, and it IS outside volume. how can u not understand that?
4. "That's not a business, robb, that's a pyramid scheme. It's also unethical, the way I see things. Other people understand this. Please think about it for a while."
Wow, just wow. the "other people" who understand this simply do not understand basic business principles and the definitions of consumers and businesses. and apparently every government agency doesn't understand either, because if they were as enlightened as you were, they would have shut us down years ago... i guess you know more than they do.
this is the last post i'm going to put on here.. you people are terribly frustrating. you say things that are either plain lies (or misconceptions at best), then just repeat them over and over and never answer my points. i have answered every one of your point, yet all you do is repeat yourselves.
please call the FTC tomorrow and ask them if a 500PV circle, including only 50PV retail is a pyramid scheme... they will not say yes, because they understand business. so does the DSA.
in the words of one of my downline, also reading these posts, "they're saying some incredibly stupid things. they deserve to be spanked a little bit." :-)
i find it very curious that everyone who is anti-quixtar gets these ridiculously high numbers, when the reality is quite the opposite - competetitive at worst.
Look, I started as a neutral party. One of the first factors in deciding not to bother was noticing the prices were much too high. I figured if it didn't work for me, why should I encourage others to sign up? At the time, I noticed the selection was terrible, and the prices were high.
I haven't looked since then -- perhaps things have changed. Like I said: if you really think you're saving money by having the products shipped to you, then I have no issue with merely purchasing the products per se.
Tim: In contrast, Quixtar works by paying money UP the organization, from the BOTTOM, where everyone makes a LOSS initially.
robb: WRONG [etc.] when i, as a CONSUMER, buy products from quixtar ... i pay the corporation for the products i get, then the bonuses (several weeks later) are distributed DOWN the organization.
You're still completely missing the point. The order the money is distributed (who gets paid first) in is irrelevant, and I'm sorry if my choice of words implied otherwise. The point is that your upline payment goes UPWARDS.
Do you expect to earn a "residual income" by signing up people "below" you? Right. That means their money is flowing upward. It doesn't matter if the check is mailed to you to give to them. There's still a net cash flow upward. It doesn't fall from heaven like manna. It's taken out of each product purchase they make.
And how is it a "loss" when consumers are simply redirecting their spending to a different company? when you shop at walmart or costco, etc. do you consider it a loss?
(1) Prices may be higher. They certainly were once, and I'll be looking again to see if they've improved. And, as mentioned above, there must be an increase to generate the money paid upline.
(2) You're paying for shipping that you typically wouldn't normally pay for otherwise. And, even more importantly...
(3) IBOs typically spend a lot of time going to events and meetings, and attempting find new people to sign up. That time is worth something. Count it at least at minimum wage if you don't think you could have earned more.
Tim: If you compare a real company to Quixtar, notice, again that the customer is outside the organization.
robb: AGAIN, and please pay attention this time, the money i spend through quixtar is AS A CONSUMER/CUSTOMER, NOT A BUSINESS OWNER!
Robb, you like to say "pay attention", but you don't do a lot of it yourself. It doesn't matter how you feel about that. It remains a FACT that you ARE an IBO, thus PART of the organization.
I could make the exact same argument for McDonald's employees "Well, when they're buying a cheeseburger it's as a customer!" Well, yes. But please note that MOST of their customers don't also participate as employees, which isn't true for Quixtar.
You can't simply make that rather huge difference go away by with word games.
... like i said before, IF i am putting a whole bunch of money (over half i would say) into business use products and samples, and therefore going way beyond my role as a consumer, then THAT could be considered a pyramid ...
I see and acknowledge your statement. It is both irrelevant and wrong. "Pyramid" refers to the fact that money flows upward, and all the customers are inside the organization.
It's true that illegal pyramids require large up-front investments. Instead, Quixtar, being legal, takes a little bit at a time, with each purchase. But that doesn't change the basic structure that I have already detailed for you.
Yet, instead of addressing the argument I make, you try to change the terms. There is a reason I spelled out, in detail, how the "sign up downlines" effect works. Yet you continue to studiously ignore it -- while claiming others are ignoring you.
and apparently every government agency doesn't understand either, because if they were as enlightened as you were, they would have shut us down years ago... i guess you know more than they do.
I don't seem to recall saying Quixtar was illegal, which you seem to be trying to change my argument into.
To repeat: I claim Quixtar generally unprofitable, and that "the plan" is unethical. There are all sorts things which are unethical but legal.
Yet another straw man argument.
If your case is so good, how come you can't actually answer my charges?
this is the last post i'm going to put on here...
Sorry to hear that. Well, I wish you well, but hope you keep the number of people you harm in this manner to a minimum.
you people are terribly frustrating. you say things that are either plain lies (or misconceptions at best), then just repeat them over and over and never answer my points.
I have answered each point you have made to me, as I am doing even now. In contrast, you are ignoring my main charges or redefine them to mean something else.
please call the FTC tomorrow and ask them if a 500PV circle, including only 50PV retail is a pyramid scheme...
You should stop blindly repeating such statements and actually follow your own advice. Here's how the FTC describes a pyramid:
Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public.... A lack of retail sales is also a red flag that a pyramid exists. Many pyramid schemes will claim that their product is selling like hot cakes. However, on closer examination, the sales occur only between people inside the pyramid structure or to new recruits joining the structure, not to consumers out in the general public.
Again, this is precisely what I am describing to you. According to your logic, there are no pyramid schemes, since all participants are always "outside" the pyramid when they buy.
in the words of one of my downline, also reading these posts, "they're saying some incredibly stupid things. they deserve to be spanked a little bit." :-)
Actually, it looks the other way around to me: almost every statement you've made here is in error in some significant way. Either you are trying to change my statement to something easier to refute, or arguing false things like all unethical businesses are illegal, or ignoring a huge part of your actual investment cost.
And you seem rather good at accusing others of your own behavior.
Ah, Quixtar IBOs are always so honest! Such wonderful, ethical people in that business.
On June 27th, "robb", said, above:
actually, that was my first time to ever post on this (or any) page regarding this topic, so no deja vu here, sorry jeff... i apoligize if it sounded like someone else's post, but let me elaborate a little more here...
But, robb either has a very bad memory or is simply lying through his teeth, since on May 28th, the exact same "robb" posted a similar set of comments on this topic.
His May28th opening, in which he assures us how very smart he is (right before making a huge number of errors):
wow, i'm amazed at the lack of intelligence (and proper spelling and grammar - i know, i don't capitalize so i'm a hypocrite) on BOTH sides of this argument. first, a little background - i have a degree in chemical engineering and graduated first in my class. just saying this so you know i'm not an idiot.
Then, his opening above:
wow, it's amazing to me the lack of information on both sides of this issue..
first, i'm a chemical engineer/IBO, so no i'm not a complete moron. i also minored in business so i know a little bit about that too.
Completely different topics, but same opening gambit: Since I have an engineering degree, I'm smart. Wow, people here are stupid... followed by extremely lame arguments.
In perusing both posts, I noticed that robb has violated a number of the comment rules, such as my #1 pet peeve: repeating numerous arguments already answered. (Which is totally hilarious, since that's basicly the charge he keeps claiming about everyone else.)
For example, he makes the same lame "pyramid scheme" argument in both threads, and his FTC argument was answered by Imran (above) before he even posted it.
Normally, I'd give robb one post to explain himself, and actually start addressing the arguments people took time to give him, but since he's promised to stay away, perhaps that's a moot point.
Sadly, I see this kind of thing happen all too often with Quixtar IBOs. If you wanted to find a strong argument for staying away from this business, the way it's "sold" -- so often it seems to involve this kind of nonsense -- should sound a strong cautionary note for anyone being lured into this venture.
Jeff: You weren't wrong at all! Good catch.
Robb wrote,
no offense man, but your definition of customer is the most ridiculous definition i've ever heard in my entire life...
None taken. Reading the words back on the page after I wrote them, I can see where it looks a little garbled. I had a specific meaning in my mind and didn't convey it very well. However, your anecdotes have helped me to clarify.
i don't accept your made-up definition. if i did, i would have to argue that customer of places like subway (sub-club cards), airlines (frequent flyer miles), credit cards (cash bach incentives), etc. are not truly customers because they are being compensated by the company they do business with.
Subway doesn't send me a tax form at the end of the year to report my free sub sandwich as compensation. Neither does Northwest Airlines or my National City Credit Card. However, Quixtar IBOs must report their compensation on their tax returns. That makes a Quixtar IBO an employee and not an outside customer. Does that clarify my definition at all?
I looked around a little bit and found a rather good description of what I was trying to convey. Strangely enough, it comes from Quixtar's website under their information about pyramid schemes.
http://www.quixtarnewsroom.com/pyramid_schemes.html
There are four key elements that distinguish Quixtar and pyramid schemes:
1. Sales-based compensation. Compensation in the Quixtar Plan is based on sales of products and services to consumers. An IBO who sponsors other IBOs earns income based on his own sales and on sales made by the IBOs he sponsors. IBOs cannot receive income based on sales by downline IBOs without meeting specified retail selling requirements each month. Unlike Quixtar, pyramid schemes often do not require the sale of products to non-plan participants to earn bonuses.
So Quixtar itself is saying that it is not a pyramid because it (supposedly) has outside customers. But you said you just buy from your own store and never mentioned outside customers. What does that tell you?
as far as the 34% number goes, let me make a corrective statement on that... it actually includes the money that would have gone towards advertising, stockholders, and debt in a typical company. quixtar has none of these costs... advertising costs themselves vary widely based on thousands of factors, anywhere from 0% to 30% and higher... that 34% was an AVERAGE of all traditional businesses expenditures on ads, stocks, and debt payoff...
how do you explain xs being cheaper than red bull at walmart? etc.) i'll tell you why, do a little more research on walmart and look at HOW MUCH PURE PROFIT the waltons are keeping every year compared on a percentage basis to other retail businesses.. it's HUGE - that's where a lot of walmart's money is going in addition to the other expenses i mentioned.
The burdon of proof rests with you, Robb. I cited a specific fact on advertising costs and you come back with these broad generalizations. Show me some specifics.
just thought of this quote - "Arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics - even if you win, you're still retarded."
I now realize how true that is.. i just wasted 15 minutes of my life on this post arguing with a brick wall, i must be retarded...
That's the way to take the high ground, Robb. Now you say this dialogue is just retarded arguing. Didn't you post on this topic first by responding to the other "morons"? And, as I suspected and Tim confirmed, isn't this your second "special olympics" competition on the Random Thoughts blog? It looks like I am the second place runner, Robb.
And, as I suspected and Tim confirmed, isn't this your second "special olympics" competition on the Random Thoughts blog?
"Say what you will about me, but spell my name right." Random Thoughts is a different blog.
"Say what you will about me, but spell my name right."
P. T. Barnum, right?
Sorry, Tim. I caught it right after I posted, but it was too late.
ok, THIS is my last post.. lol...
yes, quixtar and the law requires 50PV (or $100) of "outside" sales volume to legally collect differential bonuses from downline activity (i meet this requirement). you're absolutely right. however, the whole point of that is to avoid the pyramid schemes that cloak it by using some non-marketable cover product such as coupon books that cost $1500, a motivational CD collection that costs $5,000, a $500 toaster etc... those are the kinds the use the product merely as a cover for a pyramid - THAT is the intent of the 50 PV rule.
but what you're arguing is that if ABC Enterprises has 300PV of direct sales this month with two clients (one 250PV client - me; one 50PV client - mike), that's it's still a pyramid... my whole argument is that ALL of that 300PV is EXTERNAL or "outside" volume, because you CANNOT confuse the business entity with the individual consumer. talk to any business or maketing professor about that concept (absent any biases of course), and they will tell you i'm 100% correct.
and no, subway and airlies, etc. don't send me (the consumer) taxable income at the end of the year, and neither does quixtar. quixtar sends MY BUSINESS that income at the end of the month. now, i can choose to pay myself a salary out of that if i choose - just like ANY legitimate business owner does.
and yes, i was just being a smarta$$ about the special olympic thing... none of us are retarded. and for the record, there are plenty of "morons" on both sides of this issue - i've read posts from some IBO's who couldn't tell you the first thing about pyramid laws or even begin to argue it, and i think that's sad. just as sad as a non-IBO who refuses to acknowledge an IBOship as a legitimate business.
well i'm out of here folks, i feel like i've made my points well enough for any objective observer (although i really doubt there are any on this board, i think it's a 0 or 100 thing on here) to decide one way or the other, so i wish you all well in whatever it is you hope to do!
robb
ps - on somewhat of a side note, i would highly encourage all of you to do some research on walmart and where their money goes... and why they are not necessarily the cheapest game in town on most of their products.
http://fivestones.sitestream.com/pdf/2005-annual-report.pdf
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
http://www.againstthewal.com/
i will still shop at walmart, there's just a LOT of interesting research and numbers in those sites. enjoy!
Robb wrote,
and no, subway and airlies, etc. don't send me (the consumer) taxable income at the end of the year, and neither does quixtar. quixtar sends MY BUSINESS that income at the end of the month. now, i can choose to pay myself a salary out of that if i choose - just like ANY legitimate business owner does.
You obviously have no idea about what kind of a business you own. You do not understand the differences and distinctions between Sole Proprietorships, Partnerships, S Corporations, and C Corporations. Do you have employees other than yourself in your business, Robb? No. Do you have a Federal Tax ID number? No. Therefore, you are a Sole Proprietorship. You report business profit or loss on a Schedule C on your personal 1040 tax return. You and your business are the same entity. To suggest that you "can choose to pay yourself a salary" is completely erroneous.
I never said your IBO-ship wasn't legitimate. I hope you do well with it, I really do. I would not wish any ill will on someone I have never met. I do, however, think that you should carefully scrutinize the time and expenses that your are putting into your business and decide if the revenues you are generating are worthwhile. You said you are a chemical engineer. You most likey are paid a good salary for your skills. You also must have an idea of what dollar amount your time is worth. You should compare your chemical engineering compensation per hour with your Quixtar compensation per hour.
To suggest that you "can choose to pay yourself a salary" is completely erroneous.
It's also meaningless. We could all call ourselves businessmen and decide to pay ourselves any salary we want. I can go to the bank, pull out a thousand and put it back in. Wow! Wasn't that fun?
But it gets worse: if I truly wanted it to be a salary, I'd have to withhold social security, pay taxes on it, etc. It's an expensive move. Yet Quixtar IBOs readily say such things because -- well, as their uplines so often tell them -- they often don't know the first thing about actual business practices.
Which isn't wrong -- as we all start somewhere -- but it's certainly doesn't justify arrogance.
Jeff: I hope you do well with it, I really do.
I generally want to hope the best for people too, but as I recognize that every penny of IBO upline profit comes as a direct result of making many downlines lose, ethically, I am unable to wish people success with that kind of economic activity. So I wish them success in all other areas.
You said you are a chemical engineer. You most likey are paid a good salary for your skills...
Can't say in specific, but over and over I've encountered IBOs who used things they'd failed at as credentials for their IBO-ness. For example, my "grandsponsor" would tell about the high-paid job she gave up to be an IBO, deliberately and overtly implying that was how lucrative Quixtar was. Later, of course, I found out she'd simply been laid off and hadn't found other work.
Just one observation here, you guys are hypocrites. You mention taxes when talking about what kind of business it really is, but then call it "downline losses" when referring to product purchases. Try calling it a loss to the IRS and they will nail you for tax fraud. Why? Because it is obviously not a loss, it is a consumer purchase - it's no more of a loss than when you go to Target and shop.
Please be consistent.
Andy
Miami, FL
Andy wrote,
Just one observation here, you guys are hypocrites. You mention taxes when talking about what kind of business it really is, but then call it "downline losses" when referring to product purchases. Try calling it a loss to the IRS and they will nail you for tax fraud. Why? Because it is obviously not a loss, it is a consumer purchase - it's no more of a loss than when you go to Target and shop.
Please be consistent.
I never said products purchases were a tax loss, Andy. However, those product purchases - and the product purchases of downline distributors -generate a bonus check for a Quixtar IBO every month. Those bonus checks are taxable income. Understand?
I am guilty of getting friends involved in the quixtar scheme and feel quite guilty for it and my advice to anyone considering getting involved would be to run far far away.
This is why Quixtar is a legal pyramid.
And I was involved.
The "tools" which are optional, but "so is success" generate most of the revenue for the company, admittedly. However the rules are that no one outside the company should be given the tools or tapes, except for those that are trying to be recruited and even those must be returned. If most of the revenue is generated by these tools, and not from consumers, then most of the money is generated within the company itself and from the members of the company, which are by the FTC standards an illegal pyramid, and quixtar is being investigated.
Any company being investigated by the FTC is probably not something you want to get involved in. But if you go to the meeting ask, what are the averages expenses in the first year of buisness, then do the math with the numbers they give you and you will see that you will still owe money in your first year and not make any.
[This comment, an advertisment from Quixtar, has been deleted because (a) it is simply spam, (b) large sections were written in upper-case letters, and (c) it was reposted several times. All of which are against the rules.
What is it about Quixtar IBOs that makes them so inconsiderate and so unlikely to abide by the rules?
Quixtar IBOs: if you do not read and follow the rules, your comments will be deleted, leaving behind just another bit of evidence as to why people need to say far away from prople like you]
Here's an interesting idea by which you could spend money on training and materials and then actually make more money; It's called going to college. What a concept. You ARE going to feel stupid when five years pass and you realize you've been taken.
Hi,
I've been on the team of destiny for about 6 months now. So far i've only gotten 17 dollars and was told to stay fired up by my so called mentor. I have probally spend close to a grand in six months!!!, trying to get to my so called financial freedom.
Here is the cost that i've spent on Team of destiny.
1. Seminar tickets 25.00 X 7
2. Major function tickets 90.00 x 4
3. Books, tapes, tools = 70.00 x 12
4. food= 20x 12=
5. Hotel overnight stays = 90 x 4=
Countless times I have had bad encounters with other ibo's thats supposidly are supposed to be on the team of destiny, and have integrity which they don't.
I've been nearly almost in an accident one time while i was on my way to one of these seminars. I was going 75 mph in a 55 zone, so this van swearves into my lane and he;s hitting his horn at me and yelling and of course it was people that were on their way to this seminar also. Another instance was I entered a parking garage and i thought u had to pay, well not even 2 secs a car full of ibo's starts yelling curse words at me and starts to threaten me.
I'm sorry but the expereinces that i've went through it is just not worth it. 2 years is a long time to get free and if it takes longer then it's more of a waste to go to these things.
Another issue I have is mentors. My mentor was really nice at first. As soon as I couldn't afford to get the 90.00 ticket, then he became silent and distant. Times where i would have to go into work, he would tell me how important tuesday meetings were and the major tickets.
I am glad i am not doing tod anymore because its just a complete waste of a person's time. My cost is over 1000 in 6 months just imagine if i did it in 2 or 3 years longer??. All the seminars are the same thing, just different speakers that ramble on about how good of lifestyle they have. I would advise anyone not to join, and I know people that are ruby's will reply saying how great it is, which is not.
Calling someone about it, with a script that you can download, is like acting like a telemarketer, and you can tell if u read the script that it's so obvious about what they are trying to get you to do. They tell you it's not a cult, bc colts have people in red ties and white shirts. I've been to these seminars and most of the ibo'
s are in red ties and white shirts. On top of that some were even harrasing employees that were doing cocession stands to join their team, How freckin rude!!!
Just a short comment I have to say. I know internet sales are booming as many people do shopping online. But I will not be brand loyal to something that is overpriced. I would rather drive to a local store buy the product and help the cashier,bagger,stocker and janitor have a job to go to everyday.
Just a short comment I have to say. I know internet sales are booming as many people do shopping online as I do also. But I will not be brand loyal to something that is overpriced. I would rather drive to a local store buy the product a help the cashier,bagger,stocker and janitor have a job to go to everyday.
What a novel idea! I'm dazzled with your intelligence. Wait, you baffle me with you stupidity ;)
Internet sales are booming. Great. I buy stuff online too. So far so good. There are good deals.
If some thing meets my need, it is 5 minutes away form my place, and well priced, I don't care if it pays commission to 10000000 ppl. I'm loyal to me, my budget and my hard earned money.
IF something is expensive online, why would I buy it?
Having Job every day is a blessing. Blessing of work. Did you read the "Ultimate Gift"? What a book!
Tim, how do you attract such people? :)
I would rather drive to a local store buy the product a help the cashier,bagger,stocker and janitor have a job to go to everyday
The job thing.
Average "Diamond" works longer than a person with a job. Going Diamond simply replaces day time job with a night shift. With all bells and whistles, average diamond makes....
drum roll please
less than 100K.
And he has to leave anywhere in the world within a day's notice. Else don't get paid.
Said who? A former Diamond.
http://quixtarsucks.blogspot.com/2005/08/three-diamond-myths.html
Only top few selling tapes and senior diamond make good money.
First off ive gone and read almost all the blogs and i have to say IMRAN you need a life! Also Dimond = 250k emerald=80-100k I bet your just saving up for your retierment imran, you must have money flying out your pockets. Dreaming big does not make you a bad person. If you cant think of somthing more productive to do with money like help people then i hope you never become rich. Just becuse a few people in this buisness are selfish dosent make it a bad buisness. Thats like say because someone fails at school that the school is bad! And go ahead and coreect my grammer, seems like when a point is made that you attack the individual. I bet your in your early 30's or more. You mite not have a dream but dont put people down because they do. Quixtar works if you are willing to put the time in it, instead of watching t.v our playing vidio games. you sound like a nazi the way you attack quixtar. You must be a very negative person. sheer up the sun will come out tomorrow. You should put your efforts to protect kids from drugs i think you would be good at it.
Hi everybody,
The problems i see after reading all these comments is that,
A.) The product is expensive, I say it is not expensive ... Why?
E.G : Dish Drops which is 1 litre, compared with another brand of same volume.
This is my experience, Yes the Dish Drop from AMWAY costs more than the normal dish washing liquid for the same volume.
The DishDrop is of pure concentration and to use it, you need to dilute it. So it is now coming to a year and i have still not finished my 1st bottle. For info there are a total of 5 members including me in my family, and every weekend we call over guests to our house for dinner and not for showing any plans, means to say, we have alot of dishes to wash every month.
Now if i had used the normal dish wash, I would have used at least 2 bottles by now every month!
i did my maths, I realised that i am saving money and at the same time I am using a very good quality product. Just to name another product is LOC, the toothpaste and etc. I have a really good reason why they are good compared to other brands with my own personal experience which i have taken the effort to write down, not because my upline say they are good so like a parrot i tell the world they are good. That is not how i work, if i find my upline trying to be dirty players in this business, i will quit immediately. Luckly for me they are not or one is happens to be a dirty player in my team, i dont know for the other.
I also do agree that there are other products which if you calculate will be more expensive than if you get them from else where.
You also have to understand that good stuff do not come cheap.
My advise to those who cannot afford the basic necessities in life, not to take up this business, that is my personal view of this business.
If you are in a position to spend more money on products you wish to have a better quality then only consider about joining it, if not stay away!
I , as an AMWAY distributor do not want you as my business partner if you have financial problems to the level that you cannot afford the basic needs of life, I am not going to make you my partner cause as a partner you will need to try out the products and be able to proof to yourself that they are good. The problem is you cannot afford to compare. So stay away !!!
B)This business is "pyramid" and is illegal.
I have read all the comments.
This is what i have to say to those who still insist about it being illegal.
Go the the Police/FBI and file your complain.
Go and Do IT !!!
If they cannot do anything about it, stop complaining. There is good reason why they cannot do anything about it, cause it is very legal !!!
Period !
C) You cannot become rich thru this system.
Maybe yes / Maybe not.
Worst case scenario.....
Say nothing good comes out of it after 6 - 12 months later.
Fine, I will stop those seminars and books and tapes.
I will just get the products.
Best case scenario......
I will tell the people how and why it worked for me and not for others....
Period !
FYI: FBI investigating in US, Attorney General is UK. Many lawsuits are going on. So far they got a recent beating in federal court against BSMAA. Welcome to reality.
[link]
if i find my upline trying to be dirty players in this business, i will quit immediately
Bingo, many of us have quit for the same very reason. Higher you go, dirtier it becomes.
To any IBO, i'll recommend go find some other MLM, if you like MLM so much. Why go through a cultish, perverted and false version of christianity to loose money? There are more fun ways to lose money.
I work at a good employee owned company. I own stock in my company and I don't pay a dime for it. I make a good wage and I can retire a millionaire if I wanted. (Of course I'd have to work hard for it) The people above me DO make more money than me. My manager makes much more than me and the company president probably makes much more than him. Here's the key: none of them ever had to screw 10 people in order to make their dime. I make an honest, yes truly honest living and make good benefits, with the possibility of retiring young. How many people do I screw over to get my paycheck every day? NONE. That's the BOTTOM LINE.
I forgot to mention. The people above me worked very hard to get where they are. We are also very charitable organization, giving lots of food and money to people in need. I feel sorry for every person I hear about who gave away some of there hard earned money in hopes of becoming rich, only to discover that they'd have to find more people like themselves to take money from in order to truly prosper. I'm not Christian, by the way. It shouldn't really matter anyways. I still know right from wrong. The 'system' that BWW/Quixstar utilizes to make their living isn't flawed at all. It works great. It's just not right.
Hey Kevin-
Great comments. I've a question for you. I AM a christian. My question: Does the misrepresentation of Christianity by those in the Quixtar community affect your views on the possibility of embracing the idea of exploring the Christian faith?
It's facinating to me as a Christian to see and hear about those that claim to have come to Christ through the teachings of their upline. I wonder what could potentially happen to their faith when they find out/realize the scam perpetrated by the same people who lead them to Christ. This is dangerous territory for the faith of a new believer. The potential to mature in their faith (as Christians are ultimately called to do) is greatly jeopordized by the Quixtar 'opportunity', known or unknown.
Well, well, well. The debate rages on and on. None ever willing to discard the vicious diatribe of school yard children. Invectives tossed about as if civilized people never read these blogs. It is amusing that the emotion runs so high over topics and arguements that have been repeated ad nauseum all over the web. How much longer will the IBO's scream and rant about the wonders of Q. And how long will those that attack Q spend their valuable time in fencing with those who have been brain washed and obviously need to find a dictionary. Which is worse, the PRO or the CON. I would submit that both spar because they are obsessed with this subject. Not because they really have anything cogent to communicate. And in their incessant noise no resolution is ever found or offered. I find it decidedly creepy that little whirlpools of nonsense eddy in the back waters of the net...consuming endless band width into eternity...as has been said by more than one scholar. If you would understand the affairs of the inane---follow the money!
Which is worse, the PRO or the CON. I would submit that both spar because they are obsessed with this subject. Not because they really have anything cogent to communicate.
Dude, please speak for yourself. I (and others) make point after point here, detailing why Quixtar produces no economic value, why it's different than a normal company structure, how the values Quixtar promotes relate to biblical values, the average rate of return for an IBO, etc.
If you disagree, that's fine -- you're welcomed to answer any specific claim with something equally specific. But to claim no "cogent" remarks are being made is simply to ignore the actual conversation happening here.
I recognize your point of view: I used to hold the same position politically. It's basicly: "Well, I'm better than both sides; I'm too good to get involved in it; the proof is that I'm not engaged in the debate."
But that's not useful: People have real questions about Quixtar. Every day people visit here or other places trying to figure out if this "business opportunity" that their friend/relative/co-worker is suggesting is a good one or a bad one.
And yes, some IBOs simply will not change their mind, no matter what evidence you present. But I also know for a fact that prospects write back to me, explaining that something I (or Imran, or someone else) said did make a difference, and changed their mind.
If that whole process is beneath you, then fine; go your merry way. But you don't need to belittle the efforts of those who have done the best they can to honestly address the real questions being asked with equally real and meaningful responses, or those who are simply trying to help others avoid the mistakes they've made.
And as far as being obsessed, seems like another unwarranted ad homen insult from you (surely you are projecting when you call everyone else "vicious"): I typically spend less than about 20 minutes on this topic during a typical week. Most people (perhaps including you) watch more TV than that each day.
But apparently even that small amount of involvement seems threatening to you for some reason. Would you be just as threatened if, like most people, I spent that 20 minutes watching TV? No? So why are you suddenly so worried about how I spend my time?
So it does seem like there's some kind of issue you have there.
Perhaps that also is projection?
I have read one to many comments here and need to go to bed because I have to continue my 9-5 tomorrow morning. Let me start by addressing the sceptics. First and foremost, most of you are sceptics because you either A) Listened to all the other sceptics and formed an opinion based on their sceptisism or B) You have limited people skills to interact for this type of business.
I have tried more than one MLM. I have made money in the two that I worked at. My best friend from grade school has made a small fortune in the lower seven figure range starting in 1994. So, keep listening to the sceptics and wishing you were making a business grow around you.
I need to go because I have to get ready for my 9-5 job tomorrow. That would be a trip to Florida for a golf outting with my fellow pyramiders. Who's laughing now?
IF YOU WANT TO JOIN A CULT THEN QUIXSTAR IS FOR YOU. JUST REMEMBER TO ENJOY YOUR PURPLE KOOL-AID (XS ENERGY DRINKS) AND HAVE FUN BEING THE BETTER CHRISTIAN THEY TELL YOU AT THERE MEETINGS TO BE BY BECOMING AN IBO.
YOU KNOW IT'S ALSO REALLY FUNNY HOW AT THE SO CALLED TEAM MEETINGS, THEY ESSENTIALLY TELL YOU TO MISLEAD, AVOID THE NEGATIVES AND PREACH YOU THE PROMISE LAND FOR GOING THROUGH WITH IT. OH AND IBO'S THAT RESPOND FOLLOW YOUR OWN PREACHINGS WHERE YOU SAY NOT TO FOCUS ON THE NEGATIVES OF NONE BELIEVERS, KEEP THE POSITIVE CULT BRAINWASHING BRAIN WAVE, YOU MIGHT HURT YOURSELF IF NOT.
Jimmy L,
To answer your comments, which are comparatively much more reasonable than those of the typical IBO who posts here:
First and foremost, most of you are sceptics because you either A) Listened to all the other sceptics and formed an opinion based on their sceptisism...
I don't mean this as an insult, but you are absolutely clueless. Please click on the "Quixtar" topic to the left and read some of the articles posted there. Although I expect many others have said the same thing, NONE of the arguments you read there were simply copied from other people.
If the arguments are wrong, then you're welcomed to point out the errors. But simply accusing people of listening to sceptics is counter-productive: if the sceptics can't be refuted, then perhaps they have a valid point, no?
You have limited people skills to interact for this type of business.
To the contrary, many of the Quixtar critics who post here are former IBOS, who were quite "successful" by the standard Quixtar uses to promote itself.
Regardless, this is an irrelevant ad homen attack on those you disagree with: If a critic says Quixtar only pays an average of (say) $2.50 per hour, you can't refute that argument simply by claiming he's a misanthropic moron.
Heh, and I find it amusing that you're coming to a popular site for Quixtar debates, and then claiming the one who wrote the article has poor communication and social skills! Clearly, I and other critics are all utterly incapable of persuading people! ;-)
And you're here, why again, then?
I need to go because I have to get ready for my 9-5 job tomorrow. That would be a trip to Florida for a golf outting with my fellow pyramiders.
Dude, if you're rolling in wealth, you're more than welcomed to provide some evidence for that. I'll be glad to back you up if you can. Otherwise, readers are likely to be just as sceptical of your claims as they would be of mine, if I claimed to be a VP at Microsoft.
i have just joined quixtar and am going to give it a shot. but come on people. when you are defending quixtar at least have something smart to say.
2. IF A BUSINESS HAS BEEN AROUND FOR OVER 40 YEARS ( AMWAY/QUIXTAR/BRITT WORLDWIDE) IS THIS AN INDICATION THAT IT MUST BE WORKING?
amway at one point was broke!!!!!!!!! so they changed there name to quixtar hmmmm sound interesting.
and when anyone who is apart of quixtar speaks they sound like robots, they always have these smartass things to say. such as
this is your strike to like the match of your money making in your life.
no average human being speaks like that. they are using common phys. to get our attention.
i will give it a try for a year. no results i will toss it
IF A BUSINESS HAS BEEN AROUND FOR OVER 40 YEARS ( AMWAY/QUIXTAR/BRITT WORLDWIDE) IS THIS AN INDICATION THAT IT MUST BE WORKING?
Well, it's works for Quixtar!
Why IBOs can't figure out they aren't Quixtar is beyond me. Las Vegas casinos have been in business for decades too -- does that mean that their customers make money?
Think, people!
Mike: Come back after a year and tell us what you've learned / earned.
I just spent three hours at my “hour long” introduction to the exciting new business of on line product endorsement. When the sponsor started drawing the network diagram, I new I was seeing something my gut told me was Amway by a different name. In my mind, I was applying the duck test. Does it sound, look and walk like a duck. Let’s see, my sponsor gets a cut of my purchases and sales, my sponsor’s sponsor gets a cut of my purchases and sales and the purchases of those individuals at my place in the network. The sponsor that added my sponsor’s sponsor to the network gets a cut from us all. QUACK! Only 6-8 hours per week, all from home. Sounds too good to be true! Well, my sponsor (lovely people by the way) spent almost three hours with me at a local restaurant. A few days earlier, they spent about the same amount of time pitching this at a local hotel. That’s six hours away from home and they didn’t make a penny off me. I fact, it cost them a cup of coffee. QUACK, QUACK. The kicker was when they proudly showed me .pdf copies of big dollar checks and that I too could make that much. All earned by just putting in 8-10 hours per week all from home just by indorsing products. QUACK, QUACK, QUACK. It’s a duck all right. I wish everybody in this business all the best. There’s nothing like capitalism. But, if my income equals the checks I was shown, I can’t afford to do this, even for 6-8 hours per week.
So, if its not Amway by a different name, why did my IBO sponsor spend so much time telling me that its NOT Amway. I know the difference between a eagle and a duck. You can shave a duck’s head (bald) and put it atop a lofty perch – but its still going to QUACK.
Hi Tim, Thanks for your reply. I hope I didn't mislead you in my post. I am not an IBO with Quickstar or anything like that. I only wanted to speak about multi-level marketing. Did I say anything on there about Quickstar or Amway? It's so unimportant what MLM I am with. I have been with the company for almost 8 years. The first three was a drag. Day in and day out was a business building nightmare. No, we do not preach religion so, I don't know what you are talking about. I am talking MLM not the Catholic Church. Prove to you what my income is. HAHAHA. What is this third grade. "Prove it Prove it, Come on Prove it". What I said is true about MLM. People who fail have to much negative energy fed to them by the sceptics and they to become sceptics of their own business. The other group of failures are those who have limited people skills. Have you ever worked non-MLM sales? Guess what, it's the same people that fail there. Sceptics of their own products and people who have no people skills, ie. dull, boring, monotone, they know more than everyone else. Enjoy the nice weather. Summer is here. Thank God. Can I say that or will I be considered a cult member? LOL
Jim L: I don't know if I have a problem with other MLMs. Is Pampered Chef considered an MLM? I have no problem with it. Is Avon an MLM? Again, I have no problem with it. The same goes for Creative Memories, and probably a dozen other similar opportunities.
For the record, I have NO PROBLEM with any business which claims to get most of it's income from external customers. It's when the business claims it will pay people mostly by signing up more members, to sign up even more members, ad nauseum, that I have a problem.
Please note that I don't attack MLMs in general.
My wife and I joined the business and did it for 12 months. Bought Quixtar goodies, tapes, cds, books, showed the plan, travelled to seminars, got downlines, spent thousands of dollars but it was not worth. We got some income initially... $40 per month... for a few months.. but soon the downlines were gone and the uplines were pressing us to attend seminars, buy goodies and CDs etc.
The final decision to quit came when a refund due to a downline (who declined to continue) was not coming quickly as it should have been, from my upline.
This was some 3 years ago. My upline still lives in the same townhouse and drives the same car. I do not see any real success from them.
As for me I get a part time job and earn more money whenever I want.
My main regret is that I lost relationships with several good friends when they politely refused to join my business.
Run as fast as possible when these IBOs approach you.
well ....i read a portion of the comments .... i learned a few things and see many points on different areas of the quixtar subject.
i do see how this can work in great success for some individuals. i realize that the concept is helping other individuals succeed, just by buying everyday items like toilet paper. for some reason i find myself questioning just how much i would be helping other individuals if i involved myself as an IBO. let's say we all did this. So what’s left? everybody is profiting on what they’re buying and what everyone below them is buying ... okay that’s wonderful! .... but its the people at the bottom of the structure who would not be as successful as the people at the top of the structure.
Now this is usually where someone will chime in and say, the likelihood of everyone being involved is not real (true-not to mention other factors that prevent this from becoming a possibility). not everyone will grab the opportunity at hand. opportunity or not .... there will always be individuals at the bottom, whom will be in a situation to either succeed or fail ... and someone might say ... that’s why quixtar works "fear of loss" ... okay good point. but i would not want to knowingly place individuals in a position to lose (by not recruiting other IBOs) and then watch these same people lose the X amount of hard earned dollars they have invested, as well as the possibility of losing relationships in trying to pursue such an opportunity.
i am in no way saying that IBO's are bad ... there is potential. just know who you are and what youre about. if youre going to get loved ones involved. let them know that its going to be hard work, don't sugar coat it and make them figure it out for themselves after they have already invested it it. even if its just a few hundred dollars, because to some of us those hundreds dont come so easy.
as human beings we need to take care of one another with a kind and loving heart. this is not done by putting the "fear of loss" in front of each other. i'm sure there is someone mumbling "yeah in the perfect world sweetheart" .... well all i can say is that its about time we started looking out for one another with only the best intentions, not partial intentions.
if you are thinking of becoming a part of the quixtar opportunity - please do your research and take the time you need to make the decision that is right for you.
A friend of mine hosted a party to push her products (XS, trim advantage,nutrilite, artistry etc.) I do like the products, however, they are expensive. She suggested that I become an IBO. I told her I would give it some thought, when in fact, I needed to do some research. I have been on several web sites, and have read a plethora of information. I understand how is works. I don't like the whole "good Christian" thing. I think religion has nothing to do with being a good, honest person or running a good business. I like the idea of buying products and getting rewards, but is it worth it. I can't see myself buying motivational tapes or attending these meetings. Is that mandatory? I also don't see myself "pushing" the product, but maybe recommending it. I work full time, am a full time student (graduate degree) and consider myself quite intelligent. I have talked to several of my friends about it and they are skeptical. However, I am still considering it. But I would only get involved to buy my products at a lower price. Is this a good enough reason to buy into all the hype? Just look for some input. Comments will not affect my decision either way. After all, it is my choice.
I'm so amused that so many people think they can buy themselves into prosperity (buy from yourself and get others to follow). Let me clarify, if you truly are buying ONLY stuff you need and selling some goods, this business can be fun and maybe you'll make a few bucks.
However, if you "dream" of financial freedom and "residual income", then the only way top achieve that is to dedicate yourself to buying overpriced good month after month, and paying month after month for tapes, books and seminars, and convincing large groups of people that this is a good idea.
Based on Quixtar's own numbers:
http://www.amquix.info/britt_slide.html
The average income is $88 a month. Anyone can earn more than that working part time at a burger joint.
Can people succeed in quixtar? Of course, and some do, but for every successful IBO, there will be hundreds if not thousands losing money month after month in order for that one person to make it.
I am a current IBO and have been for only a short period of time. I would like to clear some things up. I will buy items that I would have bought anyways and I will save gas, time, and money. Plus, I get a check in the mail for doing it. It cost me $45 to start up my business. All those miles you all spend on the road, time wasted, and money wasted I will invest into my business. This IS NOT get-rich-quick, we aren't drug dealers people. Anything you are passionate about is worth risk, investment of time, and surprise, a little bit of money is involved.
If you were passionate about being the best basketball player in the world, would you go to Michael Jordans bball camp? I bet you would, it would also cost you $400 a pop, and you wouldn't even be as good as you can be afterwards. Why? Because we all have potential people, and in order to meet it we have to persevere and keep focused, because it does not happen overnight.
Quixtar, like most anything, is risky. I hate the term 'pyramid scheme'. Your 9-5s are pyramid schemes because you are not free, you have a boss over your head who can replace you at anytime, and you will have to work continuously to generate income for the rest of you life. People at Quixtar have a desire to be free, and are willing to invest time and money to that dream, much like any dream of a particular 'price'.
I say this to the skeptics: liken this to a movie because you read all the reviews, bad and good, but ultimately you will go see it if you are passionate enough about it. And you know what else? The $9-12 you spend at the theater each visit, that's already a 1/4 of what you would spend to be a member of Quixtar for one full year, with access to your own website and 1,000s of brand named and exlusive products. Sure beats the heck out of Costco and Sams Club for that price. At least I don't have to drive anywhere, and I get paid to shop. If going to a couple of conferences a year, purchasing $300 worth of products a month that I already use, and spending $45 a year on my own business are the only monetary costs of running it, then I'll do it. I challenge you to find anybody that owns their own retail business and has less than $5000 in operating costs a year, or even a month, then I will bow down before you. Chances are, you will bow down before me and ask me to show you the model.
The $9-12 you spend at the theater each visit, that's already a 1/4 of what you would spend to be a member of Quixtar for one full year
Quixtar is cutting member option.
I will buy items that I would have bought anyways and I will save gas, time, and money. Plus, I get a check in the mail for doing it. It cost me $45 to start up my business.
You are defending eCommerce, not Quixtar. Regarding check in email, you would spend 40% more money and get 2.5% or some thing like that back?
As an eCommerce site, Quixtar is a very stupid site to use. you have to remember 6 digit a "number" ?? How stupid is that. Every other website gives you email. With an option to "retrieve your password".
Tim, for the kicks, try making a shopping cart there. And then try amazon.com.
And don't get me started on driving. You have to buy eggs, milk, meat, right? Just no tissue papers or tooth paste etc. And you have to go to opens, meetings, rallies, seminars. My driving is reduced to 1/4th of what it was when I was IBO. And I drove for vacations a LOT.
My upline said, "You can't go to platinum unless u get few speeding tickets".
Well Imran, it is clear you never went platinum. Every meeting I go to I carpool with my upline and other IBOs. As well, nobody is telling you to stop eating. Quixtar doesn't provide you with milk and eggs, and there are few parishable items on the website. I also have the option of retreiving my password on our website. Anything else I can help you with, or if you would like me to show you how to sign up again, just let me know.
Well Imran, it is clear you never went platinum.
I have no idea if Imran "went platinum" or not, but let's note here that, last check, the average platinum made only $15,240 annually -- before expenses! And notice that 235 out of 236 active IBOs haven't made it even that far!
That's pathetic!!
Good heavens, in terms of equivalent income, I myself am higher than a "Founder's Emerald" -- probably well into the "Diamond" range. Even your average retail worker makes more than a Quixtar "Platium" -- why on earth would you rush to 'sign up' for a system which pays the average participant less than minimum wage?
Don't you have any economic sense?
Well, thank you for the blunt observation. Did you know that you can make that $15,240 over the course of one year, and yes that is the average. Not bad for a part time job. I have a job that pays $40-50,000 a year that provides for my IBO expenses. If you know a business owner that even broke even in their first year, I'd like to meet them. As well, before expenses that is the income, then it is a good thing that I write off my expenses as a business owner. It is a fundamental right to owning a businesses, and for all intents and purposes, that is what I do. There is only room for growth in this business, and if I have to work five years for it, I will, because I already have income to supplement my dreams. I believe that 1 in about 500,000 athletes go professional. Those are terrible odds, but kids that have a big enough dream will work their whole lives for it, at any cost. Maybe you should go destroy their dreams too. Let me know if you would like me to show you the model.
So AD, a platinum makes $15,000 before expenses. After expenses that net is how much?
But the even more telling bottom line is that the platinum's group is most likely filled with IBO's hoping to (but will never achieve) go platinum. These IBO's move all the volume, but make $8 rebate checks and spend hundreds of dollars in tapes books and seminars that enrich the diamonds. What's good about the business again?
Quixtar doesn't work because to have a huge business, you need to do a lot of recruiting, which is very hard when quixtar has a bad reputation.
those ibo's who make 8 dollar rebate checks a month have the same chance of going platinum as the ones who already went platinum. just depends on how hard you work. who in the world would complain about an extra 15,000 a year? most people don't quit their jobs until emerald or diamond. so if i make 15 grand a year as a platinum and deduct lets say 3000 for expenses (probably alot less) that leaves me with 12,000 a year. thats 1,000 a month. what would that do for you? pay yor mortgage? pay your car? pay tuition? home improvements? why are you complaining about an extra 15 grand a year?
"Quixtar doesn't work because to have a huge business, you need to do a lot of recruiting, which is very hard when quixtar has a bad reputation."
what do you think gives quixtar a bad reputation? sites like this one. so you had a bad experience with quixtar. we understand that, but there are people who have good experiences as well. theres a difference in speaking your opinion and ruining a legitimate business for hundreds of people who use this as a means of providing a life for their family.
Why does quixtar have a bad reputation? Well, I know of many people, including myself who were tricked into attending a meeting. Got invited to a cocktail party, I arrive and there are guys in suits having a quixtar (amway) meeting.
People were also lied to. Not too long ago, diamonds told their groups that nobody makes any money from the tools. Now that the internet has exposed the lie, they claim they make about $100K a year.
So when you lie and trick people who are/were involved in this business, it's pretty easy to get a bad reputation.
Oh one more, ever tal to an IBO who cannot take no for an answer? Another reason to dislike the business.
Proud IBO,
Yes, making $15,000 a year would be nice. Probelm is less than 1 in 200 ever achieve platinum and the average income of an IBO is like $88 a month. Add in teh cost of tools and the average IBO is losing money. How do you pay bills with a negative cash flow?
I'm a college student, and am about to go to my first large meeting in a couple days.I have no real idea what quixtar is, but it seems from what ive read at this website that the majority of ppl think it is a waste of time, while a good % actually did make money off of it. My problem-im majoring in biology and am going to become a doctor. As a doctor, ill be making quite a bit of money (though not til im around 30). So is it worth the risk to go through with this now, even though I'll be making the big bucks in 10 years?
Morgan,
Do not quit school for quixtar. The majority do not make money. Quixtar's own website reveals that the average income of a quixtar IBO is about $115 a month. Yes, some people do make big money in quixtar, but only 1 in 200 reach the platinum level, and 1 in 14,000 go diamond.
Please read more (here's links) and ask questions, and demand that the recruiter show you profit loss statements.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/index.php
http://www.amquix.info/Amway_rebuttal.html
http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18
I'm not saying don't give it a try, but please make an informed decision. Good luck.
Where in CA do you have business meetings
Business meetings? I'm not sure the quixtar opportunity is really a business. It's more like a commissioned sales job, IMO.
There is even a bigger thing than wealth, beauty or power. That is "Peace of Mind". What is "Peace of Mind", How can one define peace of mind, the state where mind is relaxed and peaceful. Does wealth equals "peace of mind"? Can anyone say if X has billions of $$$, then X has "peace of mind". Can anyone say "Bill Gates" who is the richest person in the world, has peace of mind? I have seen people living in huge mansions, driving expensive cars etc, but still not having peace in their lives, they could'nt sleep a night without pills. Whereas, I have also seen some fishermen, who don't have any wealth, who earn money daily by catching fish, and still the seem to be happy and having peace. Why????? How can we achieve that state, according to many religions it could only be achieved by being thankful to the creator(GOD) and detach oneself from worldly desires.
I am not gonna take any side this time, but would like to ask all the readers to decide if money can be equated to 'peace of mind'. If God were to grant u a wish and give you 2 options to choose between "Wealth, power, beauty" and "peace of mind". Which one would you take???? I know, I would take the second option i.e 'peace of mind'.
Morgan: from what ive read at this website that the majority of ppl think it is a waste of time, while a good % actually did make money off of it.
No, Morgan, I don't at all think "a good % actually did make money." The vast majority end up in the hole, as best I can see. If you do it a little, you end up a little in debt. If you do it a lot, you lose a lot.
Yes, some people do make big money in quixtar...
Yes: The "Diamonds" (who make their money from tools), and the people who actually own Alticor.
Kicked: There is even a bigger thing than wealth, beauty or power. That is "Peace of Mind"...
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Quixtar/Amway, as far as I can see. If you want peace and security, build your house on a rock, not this pile of sand.
Can anyone say "Bill Gates" who is the richest person in the world, has peace of mind?
Yes, I'm sure many people could say that. And I expect they'd be right: I expect Bill Gates does not have to worry about much. But so what? What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his very soul? [1]
How can we achieve that state, according to many religions it could only be achieved by being thankful to the creator(GOD) and detach oneself from worldly desires.
Well, you're got kind of an odd mix there, "kicked". Buddhism says, as you suggest, that the answer is to be detached from worldly desires, but Buddhism doesn't teach that God exists.
The bible, on the other hand, teaches that there is a God, but poses that the main problem we have is our sin -- not just worldly desires. In that context, desires aren't even wrong -- it's just what we do in response to them.
So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. (Matthew 6:31-33)
Kicked wrote: I am not gonna take any side this time, but would like to ask all the readers to decide if money can be equated to 'peace of mind'. If God were to grant u a wish and give you 2 options to choose between "Wealth, power, beauty" and "peace of mind". Which one would you take???? I know, I would take the second option i.e 'peace of mind'.
Joe: All things are possible thru God. Those lured by wealth and power may unknowingly be headed down the road to destruction.
Well done Tim! I think you did a great job analyzing, bringing up truth, and looking at the company from an objective point of view. I applaud you for putting so much time into this back in 2003. I hope that many people will find this and read it before making the decision to do this business. Don’t get me wrong the DeVos and VanAndel family have done a lot for Grand Rapids that I’m very grateful for, but I think that the way people go about this business from the marketing arm (Brit World Wide, Team, Team of Destiny, Quixtar, etc) is not trust worthy. They really deceive people. From my experience and from a close friend who became a speaker at the “meetings” the only way to make money is to became a high recruiter and speak at meetings. The speakers make the money from all the attendees paying for THEIR TICKET and a ticket for the people their trying to recruit, the tapes/CD’s attendees pay for, etc. NOT FROM THE BUSINESS it self!!! That is the untrustworthy approach I am against.
I’m very grateful for, but I think that the way people go about this business from the marketing arm (Brit World Wide, Team, Team of Destiny, Quixtar, etc) is not trust worthy...
If you read some of the other entries on the Quixtar topic (see left column), you'll soon discover that although bad marketing is frequently used, it's hardly the main problem.
It is, rather, the symptom of the main problem, which is that "the plan" (by whatever name) is inherantly unethical, and inherantly unprofitable. No matter how you try, that basic property cannot be changed.
You either make most your money by moving product (which ain't gonna happen when your prices are higher, on average, than competitors) or your make money (or at least imagine you will) by getting people to pay upward into a pyramid structure.
The speakers make the money from all the attendees paying for THEIR TICKET and a ticket...
Diamonds do this because the Quixtar "system" itself doesn't and cannot pay IBOs very well.
In Amway/Quixtar
#1
What does 100PV equate to in terms of $BV and actual dollars?
Is this correct...
#2
150PV = $300BV What does this mean in real dollars spent?
How is the PV actually calculated. Is it based on your personal buying? Is it based on the entire group?
Please email me at alansheffield@hotmail.com
I only have an interest in understanding the real costs.
Thanks
Alan,
From what I've read and confirmed by some IBOs, 100 PV is about equal to $280 or so.
You can spend less to make 100 PV if you only buy CORE quixtar product such as the vitamins. But if you are buying stuff from partner stores and the like, you can easily spend well over $300 to get 100 PV.
Also, you should see how much stuff you can get at Costco or Walmart for the same amount of dollars. I think you'll be surprised to find out how much more you can get at a Costco or Walmart.
I m not going to complain but think about it. Would you want a liar group or honest group. Bill Britt and Ron Puryer make lott of money but yes they a selfish self center man, greedy because he not wills to help out those who have disabitily to meet their need of tools. Think about it, If you have dream and hope to make wealthy, would you rather be in business and having your upline/downline support on your team and make adjust with tools. OR would you rather suffer which one your choose? Think about it where all tools come from and who make it? Ron Puryer and Bill Britt, your answer is right so how much money they make a year? Ok last question why are they not make one for disabitly and saying they are chirstian? Is that god wills to insult disabititly people?
Yes of course those who are disabibtlty must have tools to sucess, will you agree that you will be sucessful if Ron Puryer, Bill Britt listen to you and make accomdation? If they are not, why are they look down at disabitly? Are we dumb? Pleast think twice before throw all money in business, this not just apply to disabitly it apply to normal people too also. You have family, friend, realtive who are disabitly so think about how they will feel while Ron Puryear and Bill Britt make lot money but ingore disabitly people needs. Please help us fight back to them. They say we should have dream here is our dream to get the tools for disabitlty from who? Ron Puryer and Bill Britt why because they are one who make all kind of tools.
Anonymous wrote: Yes of course those who are disabibtlty must have tools to sucess, will you agree that you will be sucessful if Ron Puryer, Bill Britt listen to you and make accomdation? If they are not, why are they look down at disabitly? Are we dumb? Pleast think twice before throw all money in business, this not just apply to disabitly it apply to normal people too also. You have family, friend, realtive who are disabitly so think about how they will feel while Ron Puryear and Bill Britt make lot money but ingore disabitly people needs. Please help us fight back to them. They say we should have dream here is our dream to get the tools for disabitlty from who? Ron Puryer and Bill Britt why because they are one who make all kind of tools.
Joe says: Yes, there are some greedy uplines out there, but it doesn't matter. IMO, Quixtar doesn't work for the vast majority of IBOs, whether able bodied or disabled.
I am pretty amazed at the imbecility level on this forum... it's the majority, whereas the intellectuals are in the minority. It's just that 21st century seems to make it way more evident and widen the gap.
Buying from yourself does not work... then, why is there a buzz about it? It's because it does work!
I thought Bill Quain did speak about it in his book "Pro-sumer Power! How To Create Wealth By Buying Smarter Not Cheaper" He is not a nobody; compared to you he is somebody!
Go and read on:
http://www.quain.com/products/prosumer/
Besides, it all makes sense if you have common sense else, why would one care what you think? The pervs? Oh, they will agree with you as the house fly agrees with the s***.
Going Crown said: I am pretty amazed at the imbecility level on this forum.
Joe says: Yes, people who think you can buy yourself to wealth display a great deal of imbecility.
Hey, Joecool18,
Read the book and stop speaking bull! Here is the preview, exactly what's written in the very beginning in the book itself.
http://www.quain.com/products/prosumer
"going crown" When are you "going crown"?
Have you made any money from quixtar or are you losing money and getting others to do the same?
You can't buy your way to prosperity. That's it period.
Bill Quian says: When you buy a $100 item at 40% discount, you don't "save" $40. You spend $60! When you take $60 from your net worth to buy a consumable, you not only lose the $60, you lose the ability to invest that $60 and grow more money over time. That's why consuming is such a drain on your net worth - consuming takes away from, rather than adds to, your bottom line.
Joe says: So when you buy higher priced quixtar products, yuo effectively take away your investing power.
Bil Quain says: Truth is, the vast majority of consumers will never build financial security because they've been conditioned by advertising to buy products and services that lose value overtime. Consumer-thinking spends money, which leads to diminished assets and diminished dreams.
Joe says: Acurate description of what quixtar IBOs are doing. They buy $300 worth of stuff from quixtar when you could have gotten the same stuff at Walwart for $150, then IBOs spend about $200 a month average to buy tapes and seminars to learn this brilliant strategy. Talk about digging your own financial grave!
Bill Quain says: The huge stores that sell consumers discounted products, on the other hand, are producers of wealth, racking up record profits for themselves and their shareholders. Producer-thinking invests money with the idea of making money and building equity, which are the keys to wealth creation.
Joe says: Yep, big retailers get rich, but provide rock bottom prices to consumers. Overall, a good thig for consumers.
Bill Quain says: Today, thanks to a paradigm-shattering concept called pro-sumer thinking, average people can enjoy the best of both worlds - they can produce wealth while they consume! That's why I say that pro-sumer thinking is "buying smarter, not cheaper."
Joe says: That could be true if IBOs made their own products or had the leverage to negotiate lower prices like Walmart does. Being one of many middle men in the quixtar pyramid does not allow you to enjoy this benefit.
Bill Quian says: Pro-sumers have more because they think like the store. If you owned a Wal-Mart, you wouldn't buy from K-Mart, would you? In effect, pro-sumers own their own "store" - My-Mart, I call it. Pro-sumers learn to buy from My-Mart and then teaches others to do the same, which enables them to create wealth while they spend. Pro-sumers are in business for themselves... but not by themselves.
Joe says: If I owned Walmart, I certainly would buy stuff from K-mart. Stores often have loss leaders and other sales and bargains which can make it smarter to buy from a competitor. You don't think a McDonald's owner eats only bugers and fries everyday do you?
going crown said: My first cheque was $ 7.85 and my second cheque in going to be more
Joe says: Thanks for being honest. I am guessing that you are new. I wonder how much you have spent on motivational tools thus far? Many new IBOs are gung ho about the business and don;t take notice that the tools slowly drain your resources unless you are able to sponsor enough people to take the losses for you.
going crown said: How about your job? Your boss leverages his time and money through employees. Were it not the case, he would fall back to the status of being an employee. Of course, he has open options to avoid that fate
Joe says: And your upline leverages downline to make his money. Difference is in a job, the boss doesn't make money from his employees paychecks, it come from selling a product or service. unline many quixtar IBOs who consume stuff but do not sell to anyone.
going crown said: Quixtar is a vehicle that empowers you with a business model to take advatnage of e-commerce so to leverage your time and time.
Joe says: So why is the average IBO income $115 a month and why do about two thirds of IBOs quit before a year's time if the opportunity is so good?
going crown said: I have no problem buying a product from K-mart if stuff from K-mart if my business would not provide it for the time being. As soon as that changes, I revert back to buying that same product from my Walmart business. Why? I get paid for doing that and makes me a proud buisness owner who believes in the value of his business. Both moves are smart but the last standing move is the smarter one.
Joe says: So with your logic, a Mcdonald's owner should never eat anywhere but from a McDonald's franchise? Afterall, he gets paid to eat there.
going crown said: How about your job? Your boss leverages his time and money through employees. Were it not the case, he would fall back to the status of being an employee. Of course, he has open options to avoid that fate
Joe says: And your upline leverages downline to make his money. Difference is in a job, the boss doesn't make money from his employees paychecks, it comes from selling a product or service. unlike many quixtar IBOs who consume stuff but do not sell to anyone. Their upline success comes from their purchases of overpriced quixtar stuff and tools.
going crown said: Quixtar is a vehicle that empowers you with a business model to take advatnage of e-commerce so to leverage your time and time.
Joe says: So why is the average IBO income $115 a month and why do about two thirds of IBOs quit before a year's time if the opportunity is so good?
going crown said: I have no problem buying a product from K-mart if stuff from K-mart if my business would not provide it for the time being. As soon as that changes, I revert back to buying that same product from my Walmart business. Why? I get paid for doing that and makes me a proud buisness owner who believes in the value of his business. Both moves are smart but the last standing move is the smarter one.
Joe says: So with your logic, a Mcdonald's owner should never eat anywhere but from a McDonald's franchise? Afterall, he gets paid to eat there.
Thanks for your reply. Now, let me tell you how things shape themselves up at this stage and in general.
"Have you made any money from quixtar or are you losing money and getting others to do the same?"
Yes, I am! My first cheque was $ 7.85 and my second cheque in going to be more. Why? Leverage! I just signed up my first business partner as part of my up until now, a one man team. Besides, he has someone who wants to sign up too. That's exciting news! I change some of my buying habits and I help others build business by teaching them how to do the same. It seems to me that what I am doing follows the concept of prosuming as described by Bill Quain in his book that you seem to be enjoying quite a bit. Straightforward, nothing hard to comprehend unless you are close minded.
"You can't buy your way to prosperity. That's it period."
Says who? Are you Bill Quain or is Bill Quain, Joecool? You are cool! I love it! It's like salt and pepper!
"So when you buy higher priced quixtar products, yuo effectively take away your investing power."
Yes and no. I would, it seems were it for not investing the $ 7.85 back into my business. Besides, even if I were to leave it just at that level, I would still invest small to grow big only if I leverage that money or leverage my time and money by duplicating my efforts through a network of people all of whom leverage themselves in their turn to get multiples of time and money for the time and effort they put in. How about your job? Your boss leverages his time and money through employees. Were it not the case, he would fall back to the status of being an employee. Of course, he has open options to avoid that fate. My options are open too to avoid a similar fate. I just follow a different business model to still leverage myself than your boss does with his own business model. All, neat and clean but it takes work and perseverance, two important criteria. Do you meet these criteria and if so, where do you see yourself fit in right now?
"Acurate description of what quixtar IBOs are doing. They buy $300 worth of stuff from quixtar when you could have gotten the same stuff at Walwart for $150, then IBOs spend about $200 a month average to buy tapes and seminars to learn this brilliant strategy. Talk about digging your own financial grave!"
Well, yes, but financial grave is an impersonal entity lacking will, emotion or opinion thus being non-denominational. It welcomes each and all regardless of thier skin color. People walk to it and ultimately fall into it based on their personal choices which shape their current status in life both, financially and mentally. You appear as a suitable candidate based on where you seem to be right now as a result of your mentality. You do not seem to understand leverage or at least leverage in the context of this business model. All you see is that Quixtar is nothing more than an e-commerce site thus, vindicating your claims about the impartiality of Walmart towards its customer base. That is true but so is your lack of deeper pereception behind the nature of the opportinity. Quixtar is a vehicle that empowers you with a business model to take advatnage of e-commerce so to leverage your time and time. I don't remember Walmart offering me such choice apart from greeting me with the original "we sell for less" motto, even if not always so. Walmart is smart, probaly way smarter then you are else, you would be owning Walmart and be proud to be just a bit more than a Walmart customer only.
"Yep, big retailers get rich, but provide rock bottom prices to consumers. Overall, a good thig for consumers."
Oh, absolutely and yes, I agree, it is a smart move to make a little profit from a lot instead of making a lot of profit from a little. Imagine the sand grains at the bottom of the ocean. How much are they worth for even a fraction than were you to sell a few for a lot? A good salesman attracts a satsified customer and a big happy audience whereas a bad salesman attracts a spoiled customer and an even bigger unsatisfied audience resulting in his image demise.
How much would you crave for the good salesman? He plays you into his game. Your pockets are his profit. Yet, your pockets lose value over time since buiyng cheaper adds no more value to them but instead delay the day when that value is abolished down to the last penny thus, rendering you broke. Overall, a good thing for the salesman.
"That could be true if IBOs made their own products or had the leverage to negotiate lower prices like Walmart does. Being one of many middle men in the quixtar pyramid does not allow you to enjoy this benefit"
Why would I make my own product if what is given serves my purpose well? It ceratinly is awesome to negotiate so to leverage myself as opposed to the other way around which Walmart also understands well from the customer point of view thus trapping him into money value loss over time. Does the Walmart pyramid allow you to enjoy this benefit?
"If I owned Walmart, I certainly would buy stuff from K-mart. Stores often have loss leaders and other sales and bargains which can make it smarter to buy from a competitor. You don't think a McDonald's owner eats only bugers and fries everyday do you?"
I have no problem buying a product from K-mart if stuff from K-mart if my business would not provide it for the time being. As soon as that changes, I revert back to buying that same product from my Walmart business. Why? I get paid for doing that and makes me a proud buisness owner who believes in the value of his business. Both moves are smart but the last standing move is the smarter one.
Thank you for your time.
Next round.
First of all, Joecool18 you have posted the following answers on:
1) August 21, 2007 07:39 PM
2) August 21, 2007 07:40 PM
3) August 21, 2007 08:27 PM
4) August 21, 2007 09:01 PM
5) August 21, 2007 11:28 PM
Answers # 3,4 and 5 are 90% carbon copy of the original answer plus a small amendment for answer #5.
Gievn the above, why this course of action? Internet connectivity problem is ruled out as the factor since the first two answers have already been submitted 47 minutes before and 90% of the original answer does not add up to 100% by itself. Can you guess why?
"Thanks for being honest. I am guessing that you are new. I wonder how much you have spent on motivational tools thus far?"
I spend anywhere between 12 and 40 CAN dollars per month on CDs. Books, well, I am not an avid reader so, I will have to reconsider reading to grow thus, to invest in this educational aspect also. How much have you spent on educational tools in university so far? Not motivational because I know that the aspect of "individual self motivation towards success and self betterment" is not a de facto ingredient of the individual education since the days of primary school. Yet, you seem to not complain about it even though, people end up in debt after they are done university, some as much as $ 90.000 based on how things are in the USA. So, they are either happy or consider it "normal and good to be in debt" but they complain vehemently when they hear that they have to spend $ 50, $ 75 or $ 100 per month to educate themselves. Excuse, sorry. You have to apply what you educate yourself with. If you don't, why keep on paying for the motivational material? That says you are not motivated to educate yourself. You would have to be utterly stupid to keep on paying for it and even more stupid to come online and complain why "the business doesn't work". If you do apply what you learn from the motivational material to make your way to success then, it is worth it because what you spend will return back to your pockets multiple times.
"Joe says: And your upline leverages downline to make his money."
So does the franchisor through his network of franchises. DeLuca family, owner of the Subway franchise makes 6% of every Subway franchisee. Talk about leverage. Yes, you have explained it well.
"Joe says: Difference is in a job, the boss doesn't make money from his employees paychecks, it come from selling a product or service. unline many quixtar IBOs who consume stuff but do not sell to anyone."
Yes, however, these products and services are the result of the work of his employees else, why does he have employees?
Quixtar IBOs create a cash flow towards the companies by using these companies products and services while they also create a cashflow towards themselves by having these companies acknowledge them as performing faithful business partners. Selling also results in the two step cashflow. Therefore cashflow validity stands strong on both counts.
"Joe says: So why is the average IBO income $115 a month and why do about two thirds of IBOs quit before a year's time if the opportunity is so good?"
The $115 comes form personal consumption only. The leveraged money come from creating volume flow. You create no volume flow, you stay within the average. If all you do is stay within the average, it would be wise to give up on having a business and seek on having a job else, you only progress into debt not much more different than were it not for you to be part of this business model.
Why do two thirds of IBOs quit? Each one of them has his/her personal reasons regardless of the validity of the reasons in question. Given that most people are unaccountable by testament of their nature it would make sense as to why two thirds do quit. Some do have valid reasons but they belong to the minority.
"Joe says: So with your logic, a Mcdonald's owner should never eat anywhere but from a McDonald's franchise? Afterall, he gets paid to eat there."
He is free to do as he pleases. So are you and so am I.
Going Crown: If you are spending $12 to $40 on tools, you are not a serious business owner. You need more tapes/cds. What do you do, listen to the same one every day?
Do you not have any expenses for KATE (Voicemail) and the website charges?
So right now you have been in business and based on the information given, you have taken a small loss.
Based on what evidence do you claim that quixtar is such a great business?
"Joe says: If you are spending $12 to $40 on tools, you are not a serious business owner. You need more tapes/cds."
This is a controversial statement and I would not engage into a debate with you given your expertise level and personal agenda that motivates you to be critical of this business system. You seem to grow more frustrated as we speak. I am relaxed.
"Joe says: Do you not have any expenses for KATE (Voicemail) and the website charges?"
Why do you worry so much about my expenses overall? You should worry more about your personal expenses because you pay your bills not me.
"Joe says: Based on what evidence do you claim that quixtar is such a great business?"
Convincing you is not my duty; after all, it's a matter of individualistic faith and discipline to seek out the truth.
I do not convince, I have no intention in doing so either. I just show people what I have and I let them make up their own minds. Whether they seek information from credible sources or not is their independent choice with a corresponding consequence.
Therefore, seeking out and believing before it manifests itself is walking the path else, how would you travel from place A to place B unless they both contradict themselves thus, you move not?
I have a personal story. I was there when an IBO retired his wife from her job, while she was in her 30s. We were there, a group of a few dozens of IBOs. In 2002, he retired also. Why would that IBO retire his wife and then himself if that couple's Quixtar powered business was not successful, either through works or by reason of a flawed business model? I was not there in 2002 because my mentor quit and I was not knowledgeable enough in what to do next thus, I was left out for 4 years praying and believing that one day, I will meet someone else to shake my hand and to bring me back. Today, I am thankful that request came to be. In God's name, Amen!
Going Crown says: "Joe says: If you are spending $12 to $40 on tools, you are not a serious business owner. You need more tapes/cds."
Joe says: Joe doesn't say that, that's what some diamonds teach from stage.
Going Crown says: Why do you worry so much about my expenses overall? You should worry more about your personal expenses because you pay your bills not me.
Joe says: Because you make it sound like $12 to $40 is your total business expenditures and it is not. Your business expenditures are more than $40 and you downplay it. Is it because you want to deceive people? Did your upline teach you that?
Going Corwn says: You seem to grow more frustrated as we speak. I am relaxed.
Joe says: Are you kidding, you haven't yet made an argument that I could not tear apart. Haha, want more reading material? Visit my blog:
http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18
Going Crown says: Convincing you is not my duty; after all, it's a matter of individualistic faith and discipline to seek out the truth. I do not convince, I have no intention in doing so either. I just show people what I have and I let them make up their own minds. Whether they seek information from credible sources or not is their independent choice with a corresponding consequence.
Joe says: And all I do is point out the obvious flaws in the business and allow prospects to decide if they want to join a business where the vast majority of IBOs lose money (going crown included), and where the average IBO earns $115 a month.
"Joe says: Joe doesn't say that, that's what some diamonds teach from stage."
Is the emphasis on you or on Joe? You might have a point there. Teaching as you say, is a wonderful tool. It is how you receive knowledge that empowers or weakens you. Have you received it with an open heart or did you misrepresent the message regardless of the reasons?
"Joe says: Your business expenditures are more than $40 and you downplay it. Is it because you want to deceive people? Did your upline teach you that?"
I do not acknowledge that $ 40 is a fixed figure for anyone spending money on the educational system. I usually happen to fall within this range; sometimes more, sometimes less. Besides, I also have the personal choice of whether I want to spend money on it or not; I choose to spend. No one forces me to; it is optional. Though, I think: is it worth spending and learning or not spending and not learning?
My upline always tells me "What do you want? Do you want to learn and grow? You are in business for yourself, I do not tell you what to do; you choose to do what you want and you have to seek me and ask the questions you have, not the other way around." If your upline was different, your experience is very personal as is mine thus, a personal experience does not vindicate a generalization in the above terms.
"Joe says: Are you kidding, you haven't yet made an argument that I could not tear apart. Haha, want more reading material? Visit my blog:
http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18"
Tell me in your own words how you managed to do just that.
"Joe says: And all I do is point out the obvious flaws in the business and allow prospects to decide if they want to join a business where the vast majority of IBOs lose money (going crown included), and where the average IBO earns $115 a month."
Since when have you spotted these flaws and what have you done about them up until now?
Prospects are individuals with a free will and conscience to choose for themselves according to their personal desires and needs. You are not in position to choose for them. If you were, where would you be today? Not here, ejaculating statements of questionable nature pointing back to you. Not here if you were to have read and to have understood my explanation concerning the $ 115 per month. Don't tell me what I am capable of; your mind can't even conceive.
Going Crown, you are still new and excited about the business. A this point, there are more than a few former diamonds who have come forward to tell their story. Some of the claims made is that diamonds make most of their money from tools, regardless of IBO success. Also, the recent "Team" diamonds contend that prices are too high, IBOs cannot sell quixtar products and thus rely on self consumption.
The facts are there, quixtar is a poor opportunity. Whether you listen or ignore them is up to you.
I challenge you to post here monthly and report your progress, and your downline progress.
People come forward for a variety of reasons some of which you don't know or seem obvious but are not.
Two questions for you:
What is wrong with making income from the tools?
What is wrong with self consumption since you do that on a day to day basis, don't you?
About posting my progress, I will think about that but don't expect to see what you want; you will see what you need to know. Besides, posting my own progress is not an indicator that each one will have the same progress and that makes me weary; why? because it will be taken for granted and a new show of opinions will be created around it. I will think about it, but I don't promise anything.
Thank you!
There is nothing wrong with someone making money off tools except for the fact that the tools don't work. If 20% of IBOs reached platinum, there would be no critics. But when only a small faction of 1% reach platinum, it seems the tools serve only to enrich the sellers of tools. Yet tools are promoted as your key to success.
Scondly, there is nothing wrong with self consumption, but when your only focus is self consumption as a means to achieve your business goals, you are likely to fail miserably.
Posting your progress is up to you, but take note that I am interested in seeing how your downline fares. I know that some IBOs succeed, but when they add up the cost of doing business collectively with their downline, it's almost always a loss.
This morning I did post in response to Joecool's last reply and it seems to me that this answer was erased.
My previous answers were not and this one was...
Makes me grow more suspicious of the very intentions of the Quixtar critics. What are they afraid of?
I appologize for earlier on, the answer seems to be on, might have been a browser cache issue.
"Joe says: There is nothing wrong with someone making money off tools except for the fact that the tools don't work. If 20% of IBOs reached platinum, there would be no critics."
Flawed conclusion. Educational tools don't just work. They need to be studied so to apply their contents. Each individual has a choice; learn the system and develop mental toughness in face of the adversity or just turn both of them down. By the way, what's with this magical number, "20%"?
"Joe says: Scondly, there is nothing wrong with self consumption, but when your only focus is self consumption as a means to achieve your business goals, you are likely to fail miserably."
You are 100% right. That is just step one of the business plan. Since we talk business, what do we talk about? Leverage! So, leverage yourself by teaching others do what you do and thus build your business up. Again, remember, DeLuca family owner of Subway. They opened one Subway and made pretty good money but they wanted more so, they opened up more Subway stores and looked for people who would be interested in a franchise opporunity.
"Joe says: I know that some IBOs succeed, but when they add up the cost of doing business collectively with their downline, it's almost always a loss."
Well, since you already said that some IBOs do succeed, it does work but that was their choice to make it work, not the choice of someone telling them "you make it, you make it, you don't, you do, you don't, etc". About the cost, every IBO chooses how much money he/she invests. I don't tell my downline "you must invest this much else, I don't like you". I tell them what's at stake and then, they decide. You make it sound as if every upline bears or decides the full cost. That is not true. I bear and decide my own costs.
Let's see, some of the material I learned from tapes and seminars:
Don't quit, buy more tools, vote republican, jobs are bad, secular humanists are bad, don't quit, attend more functions, ok to go in debt if you are buying more tools.
The solution to a failing quixtar business? Open more quixtar businesses! Regardless of location and/or likelyhood of success. What a concept!
Some IBOs obviously succeed. But they succeed in spite of the system, not because of the system. And in the process, most of their downline suffer losses.
Do the math.
Sorry for the length, but here's 6-4-2 broken down.
Let’s break down the 6-4-2 plan
Basically, it’s a plan to go direct (platinum) and all you need to do is sponsor 6 of these direct groups and you’re a diamond and will retire early and life in luxury right?
Assumptions: 1PV = 2.5BV. 1PV costs about $2.70.
The 6-4-2 plan has the premise that you do 100 PV, and you sponsor 6 frontline who do 100 PV. Your six frontline in turn sponsor 4 (24 IBOs) each who do 100 PV. And each of these 4 IBOs sponsor two IBOs (48 IBOs).
So your direct empire looks like this:
1 platinum Sponsored 6 who sponsored 4 who sponsored 2
6 1300 PV groups Sponsored 4 who sponsored 2
24 300 PV groups Sponsored 2
48 100 PV IBOs
Total 7900 PV. 7900 PV = (1 PV = 2.5 BV) 19750 BV.
19,750 BV @25% = $4937.50 per month. Annualized = $59,250. Add Q12 bonus 69,250 (platinum group yearly income, not counting retail sales profit. Cost of product
(approximate) $21,300 per month or $255,960 per year to maintain 7900 PV.
The platinum must pay his 6 1300 PV groups. 6 frontline 1300 PV = 3250 BV = $390 per month, or $4680 per year. $4680 x 6 = 28,080.
The Platinum keeps 69,250 – 28,080 = 41,170 (net, but not including operating and system expenses, but this includes the Q 12 bonus)
Now, the 6 frontline must pay their 4 IBOs who sponsored two. 300 PV = 750 BV = $45
Per month, or $540 per year. Thus the 6 frontline earn $4680 per year but pay out $2160 downline for a net of $2520 per year, or $210 per month.
Ok, and then each of the IBOs who earn $45 per month or $540 per year must pay their downline (2 each) $7.50 per month, or $90 per year x 2 = $15 month or 180 per year.
Thus the 300 PV IBO earns $30 per month or $360 per year.
Let’s review:
1 platinum earns $3430 per month, or $41,170 per year
6 1300 PV IBOs earn $210 per month, or $2520 per year
24 300 PV IBOs earn $30 per month, or $360 per year
48 100 PV IBOs earn $7.50 per month, or $90 per year
This is before taxes and expenses, but also does not include retail profits, but hey, we teach buy from yourself right?
OK, let’s look at tools expenses. Let’s say only the platinum, the 6 frontline and the 4 each who sponsored others are on tools (Fair assessment?) That would be 31 IBOs out of a group of 79 IBOs on tools or 39% of the group, and remember that all of these IBOs do 100 PV every month.
Tools cost: KATE, Website, standing order, book of the month, open meetings, monthly functions, major functions (some IBOs have to fly to functions), gas, incidentals, babysitters. Let’s estimate these tools and other expenses to be $160 per month (Very conservative IMO). $160 per month = $1920 per year.
Now let’s review the group NET income.
1 platinum $3430 - $160 = $3270 per month, or $39,240 per year
6 frontline (1300 PV) $210 -$160 = $50 per month, or $600 per year
24 (300 PV) $30 - $160 = per month loss or $1560 per year
48 IBOs earn $7.50 per month or $90 per year.
Group income = $69,250.
Group Tools expenses = (31 x $160 = $4960 per month, or $59,520 per year)
Group profit = $9,730 for the year.
79 IBOs putting in 10 hours per week = 790 hours per week or 9480 hours per year.
These IBOs on average made a whopping $1.02 per hour for the year collectively.
Or………
Platinum made $78.48 per hour
6 frontline IBOs made $1.15 per hour
24 – 300 PV IBOs lost $3 per hour
48 100 PV IBOs made 17 cents per hour.
Seems to me that flipping burgers or being on welfare is better unless you are the platinum.
I have looked at your math analysis and I have some points to make.
The math seems reasonable based on what I know and on what you want to imply however, remeber that this is a model and I know of no model that works 100% of the time in real life. Imagine that you want to take exactly eigth steps to move from A to B and you need to make sure that it can be exactly eight steps. Chances are you will make more or less than eight even if it was proven that eight steps is all it takes. So, the math is all cool but what is your point? Is 1 + 1 = 2 always?
It's you choice; you can keep at 100 PV or you can leverage yourself just as DeLuca family, owner of Subway could have chosen to have one open Subway or to open many more to have the leverage effect kicking in. So, is 1 +1 = 2 always?
"Joe says: Tools cost: KATE, Website, standing order, book of the month, open meetings, monthly functions, major functions (some IBOs have to fly to functions), gas, incidentals, babysitters. Let’s estimate these tools and other expenses to be $160 per month (Very conservative IMO). $160 per month = $1920 per year."
Again, what's your point? Constructive criticism or plain bitching? Yes, tools do cost but one thing you fail to see is that there is no one to point a gun to your head so to force you be part of the educational system 100%. Did your school teacher keep you in class at gun point? Well, not that I remember of at least every educational institution I went to! If your upline did that, I'm sorry to hear it but that's not the big picture only an isolated incident. On the other hand if the above is not true but it all comes down to personal reasons and opinions as to why tools are bad, that's another story and its veracity is irrelevant as to the real reason behind the existence of the tools. I thought you did pay for tools when in school; so did I but I wasn't forced to, I knew I had a choice and I chose to pay regardless of incidental thinking.
Why, this $ 160? Why not $ 1600? Sounds too ludicrous or is it any less ludicrous in your view to embarass yourself by compalining about $ 160 per month? You don't have $ 160? In that case make sure you do. You have to take responsibility. Besides, not everyone will pay $ 160 per month, they will pay whatever they choose to.
"Joe says:
Platinum made $78.48 per hour
6 frontline IBOs made $1.15 per hour
24 – 300 PV IBOs lost $3 per hour
48 100 PV IBOs made 17 cents per hour."
This part looks taboo. First of all, why do you talk about $/h?
Employees talk about $/h, not business owners! They do not generate fixed incomes; their incomes fluctuate. Well, employees incomes fluctuate too but the difference is that they are always fixed or have a very small freedom in terms of promotion. Were you promoted let's say $ 50,000/year for working 50+ hours per week? No! If you were, you would probably be working 100+ hours per week. Not a good deal if you ask me... family life good bye, time good bye, friends good bye, choices good bye, vacation good bye. Wow, money and no time! Why not, look for smarter ways to gain time and money?
Going Crown, the point I am illustrating is that unless you are platinum, you will be leading a big group of IBOs who are losing money, and as aplatinum, you will be making money from your downline's paychecks, not their businesses.
And as you say, I am illustrating a model because the average IBO does about 38 PV, not 100.
And although you say the tools are optional, they are not. The are a defacto requirement. When youhear things like "You need to be at so and so function", Nobody ever succeeds without tools", "bill britt is a multi millionaire and says tools are vital, but if you think you know
more than him". Those kinds of statements implies that the tools are requried, not optional.
I'm not going to argue about the tools at this point.
What I find silly and questionable is this:
"... you will be making money from your downline's paychecks, not their businesses."
Can you please elaborate on what you intend to mean by that? What I understand is that those paychecks come from their businesses. Or are you referring to their job paychecks?
Going crown, you yourself made $7 and some change from quixtar last month. That means your job is paying for your products and tools. Most IBOs are in your boat. Therefore, upline is making their fortunes from the jobs of their downline.
If your group teaches "buy from yourself", then even more, yuor group's jobs are supporting the lifestyles of your upline diamond.
"Joe says: Going crown, you yourself made $7 and some change from quixtar last month. That means your job is paying for your products and tools."
Yes, it does up until now and for some time to come still. Given that I am in the infancy stages of the business, how would I possibly be able to pay for my products and tools if I had no other source of income such as a job? How would I possibly be able to pay for my products from Walmart or any other stores either?
"Joe says: Therefore, upline is making their fortunes from the jobs of their downline."
Yes, as with any business out there. Your boss makes money based on his business' product and service offerings as a result of your day to day work while he still pays you what he thinks you are worth. He does not make money off your paycheck in the strict sense of the statement still, you can view it as such even more as to when the government makes money off your paycheck directly in the form of taxes. Therefore someone always makes money off someone else. Has this not occured to you yet?
"Joe says: ... even more, yuor group's jobs are supporting the lifestyles of your upline diamond."
Reinforcibly speaking, your boss' employees are supporting the life style of your boss through helping his business turn a profit which will allow the boss to have his personal life style.
Going Crown says: Reinforcibly speaking, your boss' employees are supporting the life style of your boss through helping his business turn a profit which will allow the boss to have his personal life style.
Joe says: Yes, but employees support their employer's lifestyle by producing profit. The employees do not open their checkbooks and pay for the boss's car and home.
In quixtar, the downline's jobs are paying for the Diamond's cars and mansions and fancy suits. Go scroll up and look at my breakdown of the 6-4-2 plan. In any direct level business, the majority lose money so 1 or 2 can make money.
It's called a negative sum game.
Going Crown says: Therefore someone always makes money off someone else. Has this not occured to you yet?
Joe says: Yes,. but Mr. Walton or Mr Costco make their money from customers. What a concept! Quixtar diamonds make their money from their downline, not customers.
"Joe says: Yes, but employees support their employer's lifestyle by producing profit. The employees do not open their checkbooks and pay for the boss's car and home. In quixtar, the downline's jobs are paying for the Diamond's cars and mansions and fancy suits."
Here is the parallel in case it appears subtle. In this business all the IBOs create volume (we assume all, some don't, we know that). In any given group, the group's upline gets the total PV and the total money made based on the PV/BV ratio before compensation is computed. Let's call that sum X. When compensated, he keeps the difference, let's call it Y. What does that mean? The first level below him gets Z, so X - Z = Y. Then the difference of Z and the second level below is compensated the third level below and so on. So, money is distributed from top to bottom and not bottom to top.
"Joe says: Go scroll up and look at my breakdown of the 6-4-2 plan."
Yes, I did. You did a good job and I don't take that lightly though, I don't equally take lightly the fact that you are not active in business either. So, how could I listen to you if you don't do what you teach? My upline teaches while he does.
"Joe says: Yes,. but Mr. Walton or Mr Costco make their money from customers. What a concept! Quixtar diamonds make their money from their downline, not customers."
Every Quixtar IBO is both a business owner and a customer. Every Quixtar IBO creates volume by exchanging money for products and services he wants to buy. Otherwise, there would be no both, cash and product flow. A customer in the familiar sense of most people is defined as someone who does what an IBO does, except he is not an IBO. So, an IBO can have only IBOs or IBOs and customers. Nothing fancy about it. What a concept!
In the lawsuit that Team diamonds filed against quixtar, it says 3-4% of sales are to non IBOs.
That translated means that upline is getting rich from their downline's paychecks, not from customers.
A McDonald's owner cannot make a living from having his family and employees consuming all the burgers.
Dude, listen you start to really sound like you want to piss people off and I'm beginning to suspect that is your whole agenda. You are a smart guy so don't play the fool with me. Your mind games are awesome but that's not what I want to play. I'm here to try to show you the picture of this business and what it can mean to you if you are sincere about it. Do you have the desire to learn or just to be the "mind games & opinion" man?
Wow, you can't "go crown" losing your cool can you?
Have you run out of facts to debate? I have debunked everything you posted. Seems like that's a pattern with IBOs, they get their theories debunked and then they lose their cool and start name calling and whatnot. I even showed you mathematically that the majority lose money in a previous post. I'm not sure what is left to debate.
Quixtar is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority who sign up. Sure, a few exceptional people can succeed despite the system and bad reputation of the name, but they are few and far between.
"Joecool says: Have you run out of facts to debate? I have debunked everything you posted."
You have said the same exact thing in the very beginning, on August 23, 6:01 PM:
"Are you kidding, you haven't yet made an argument that I could not tear apart. Haha, want more reading material? Visit my blog:
http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18"
From then on, you came up with bizarre arguments contradicting Bill Quain, contradicting an opportunity that you seem to not fully understand and a mathematical model which does not follow to the letter in real life as any other model out there. I have tried to briefly clarify to you a few matters, some of which, really are self explanatory to anyone who is alive and has a dose of common sense.
A few questions for you:
1) How old are you?
2) Are you Bill Quain or have you walked his path?
3) Has the opportunity not appealed to you personally?
4) Are you enjoying crap?
5) Are you a corrupter of people?
"Joecool says: Quixtar is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority who sign up. Sure, a few exceptional people can succeed despite the system and bad reputation of the name, but they are few and far between."
YES! Finally! It is astonishing how you have hit the nail right on the head! Yes, this is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority of people as you plainly state and yes, it is also true that as with any opportunity, a few exceptional people, few and far between the majority can succeed also! You just stated the truth in plain daylight. Anyone can see it too if they choose to; you obviously can! I remember listening to a CD where I heard that "The people who succeed in this business or anything else in life are the ones who are the most disciplined, those who stay the course and who don't really care about what others think". That made sense to me. It seems that in the end, you have managed to debunk yourself! Case closed.
For your own information and that of others, check out with credible sources:
www.ftc.gov 1-877-FTC-HELP (382-4357)
www.bbb.org
www.quixtarfacts.com
www.thisbiznow.com
It's obvious by now that you and I are not on the same page, neither can we likely be given your conduct. I have visited your blog in the past, I have enjoyed my stay and I haven't seen anything better than what you say here if not, only worse.
Now, if you can please, answer those five questions I have asked of you.
Thank you
going crown said: Yes, this is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority of people as you plainly state and yes, it is also true that as with any opportunity.
Joe says: That's why I post here. It is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority of people, yet people like you promote the business as the "best" opportunity out there. Very deceptive of you.
Joecool,
I know that "that's why I post here" and there, because of your personal "whys".
People looking into an opportunity seek out the opportunity for what it is, not for the personal "whys".
One never runs out of "whys", no more than personal opinions.
One thing I find interesting is that you did not omit the "it is also true that as with any opportunity." part.
If you would have done just that, you would have been smarter in your way and yet, you left it in, reinforcing the fact that any opporunity out there is a lousy one for a specific class of individuals. Which class of people do you fit in? Based on the answer to this question, how do you answer the other five you are still accountable to?
going crown said: One thing I find interesting is that you did not omit the "it is also true that as with any opportunity." part.
If you would have done just that, you would have been smarter in your way and yet, you left it in, reinforcing the fact that any opporunity out there is a lousy one for a specific class of individuals. Which class of people do you fit in? Based on the answer to this question, how do you answer the other five you are still accountable to?
Joe says: It is not true of any other opportunity. Say you open a McDonald's franchise. It's pretty well documented that your chance of success is nearly 100%. It's because they do research on where to open the store, researching the population and other demographics.
In quixtar, the prices are too high for the products to be sold competitively. Secondly, quixtar does nothing to be able to predict the success of a new business. In fact, IBOs think the solution to a failing business is to invest in more tools, and to (sponsor) open up other businesses. It's why 99% or more of people make nothing or lose money in quixtar.
going crown:
A few questions for you:
1) How old are you? _ irrelevent to the discussion.
2) Are you Bill Quain or have you walked his path? No, but I was an IBO and attained a significant level, only to find out I was still losing money.
3) Has the opportunity not appealed to you personally? Yes, but only because my upline fed me lies about the business and the tools. Once I found the truth, I detest the business and what it represents.
4) Are you enjoying crap? Are you?
5) Are you a corrupter of people? No, I am sharing my real life experience and I'm sorry of the truth hurts.
"Joe says: It is not true of any other opportunity."
So, why is this an opportunity then if it is not a guarantee? If it were a guarantee then, this discussion would be irrelevant as you would have the same success level as anyone else out there. However, it's not. Success is not a generality but an individual privilege. I don't see too many successful people out there; I witness mostly mediocrity. Therefore, this is an opportunity and as such, shares in existence with all others, otherwise were it not true, so will the others translate as guarantees which is an impossibility as demonstrated by success on a case by case basis.
"Joe says: Say you open a McDonald's franchise. It's pretty well documented that your chance of success is nearly 100%."
Nearly, yes, more or less. But that chance just does not happen out of the blue. You still have to follow a system, you still have to educate yourself, you still have to do the works on faith so to have the guarantee of success, at least, success in its primordial stages.
However, based on your competence in this business, it seems that you just imply the system will do the work for you. Maybe this is what you expected from this business as well. I am sorry, it's not going to work that way. No business will work in practice, but only in theory if you keep it just at that level.
"Joe says: In fact, IBOs think the solution to a failing business is to invest in more tools, and to (sponsor) open up other businesses."
Maybe, some need more tools to learn where they fail and as soon as they gain that knowledge, they can improve and avoid failure on that scale yet again. Sometimes it's inevitable and there is nothing to do about it but in cases where you know you can do something about it, do it! Besides, if one of your businesses (let's say, a local business out of ten you have in ten others cities) fails, what will you do? Cry out to mommy "OH MOMMY, I AM GONNA QUIT MOMMY... OOOOHH!"? All that hard work gone for nothing? Or will you open up other businesses and move on? Either way, God bless you!
"Joe says: No, but I was an IBO and attained a significant level,"
Significant level in what sense? PV only and no proper group structure? In that case, I understand well. You can sponsor someone who goes 7400 PV plus your 100 PV, you then qualify at Platinum volume but not Platinum business level structure so, you make peanuts in $$$! You have to have proper structure as well, not just PV if you want to make serious profit. Who do you think did most othe work and has most PV? The guy at 7400 PV, not you!
"Joe says: Once I found the truth, I detest the business and what it represents."
So, what does this business represent in your own, personal terms, whether opinions or remarks?
"Joe says: No, I am sharing my real life experience and I'm sorry of the truth hurts."
That is awesome, no two people share the same experience or even at the same level. However, you take that experience and transform it from a personal story into a political agenda.
[Tim: scatological humor deleted.]
going crown says: "Joe says: Say you open a McDonald's franchise. It's pretty well documented that your chance of success is nearly 100%."
Nearly, yes, more or less. But that chance just does not happen out of the blue. You still have to follow a system, you still have to educate yourself, you still have to do the works on faith so to have the guarantee of success, at least, success in its primordial stages.
However, based on your competence in this business, it seems that you just imply the system will do the work for you. Maybe this is what you expected from this business as well. I am sorry, it's not going to work that way. No business will work in practice, but only in theory if you keep it just at that level.
Joe says: But why does the vast majority of IBOs who follow the "system" in quixtar end up losing money as compared to McDonalds?
I say the system does not work. A dedication to the system is only a small part of being able to "make it" in quixtar. You also need to b able to deceive and con people and you must also overcome the bad reputation of the quixtar/amway name.
"Joe says: But why does the vast majority of IBOs who follow the "system" in quixtar end up losing money as compared to McDonalds?"
Well, I see this as a question that you still can't answer and my view is that the answer is very subjective per person.
First of all, you talk about the majority which is true so, the minority is left out but it is the minority that succeeds in following the system. Why? Minority undertakes risks; majority avoids risks. Since when has the majority been successful? Look around and tell me based on how people live on a day to day basis what you witness. Do you witness more of the negative comments/attitudes than positive ones? Well, I do.
Since when has McDonalds been an exception to the rule? As an owner of a McDonalds franchise, you still have to undertake risks. Nothing is risk free!
"Joe says: A dedication to the system is only a small part of being able to "make it" in quixtar."
Yes, that is true and dedication is again, very subjective per person. Mr X understands that to be dedicated means being consistent daily whereas Mr Y understands that to be dedicated means being consistent whenever he feels like it. So are the results.
"Joe says: You also need to b able to deceive and con people"
Be able to deceive and defraud people... I don't really remember ever being officially told that, either in oral or in writing. Besides, I'm still around and quite happy. That means I would be an awesome conman and proud of it even if it were the case! Being conman and not even having known it, powerful stuff! How about I give you a million dollars tonight or a penny doubled every day for thirty days, what will you take?
"Joe says: I say the system does not work and you must also overcome the bad reputation of the quixtar/amway name."
I say the system does work either way and in my case it works to fruition because I am overcoming bad reputations such as yourself.
going crown said: Be able to deceive and defraud people... I don't really remember ever being officially told that, either in oral or in writing. Besides, I'm still around and quite happy. That means I would be an awesome conman and proud of it even if it were the case! Being conman and not even having known it, powerful stuff! How about I give you a million dollars tonight or a penny doubled every day for thirty days, what will you take?
Joe says: Deception still exists in the QMO teachings. "Quixtar is not Amway" "Fake it till you make it" "No selling requried, just buy from yourself" "The system is vital to your success" "You too can share in tools profits"
going crown said: I say the system does work either way and in my case it works to fruition because I am overcoming bad reputations such as yourself.
Joe says: By your own admission, you lost money in this business so far - because of your system expenses. You don't know if the system works for you.
Remember this - you will be taught it eventually.
If you succeed, it's because of the system. But if you fail, it's all your own fault.
"Joe says: Quixtar is not Amway"
No, it's not because they are similar but different business models. You can not get twins from two brothers just because they are brothers!
"Joe says: Fake it till you make it"
I never heard of it. What I heard of is to believe and to act accordingly, speaking in the present as if you already have it. It's something easily mistaken by average people for "fake it till you make it". Yes, you can fake it too when you have no belief. No wonder you will never make it that way!
"Joe says: No selling requried, just buy from yourself"
I did not hear of that either but again, why is it wrong to buy from yourself? You pay for it just as you do when you go to a store.
"Joe says: The system is vital to your success"
As a McDonalds franchisee, the McDonalds system is vital to your success too or else you fly off and "bye bye". Next!
"Joe says: You too can share in tools profits"
Yes, absolutely but only when you reach Platinum level and above. What do you expect, from newbies to questionable people to teach on stage?
"Joe says: If you succeed, it's because of the system. But if you fail, it's all your own fault."
Yes, I do believe that because there are instances in my life when I failed at accomplishing what I wanted. First, I blamed that on someone else but then I realized it was indeed my fault.
"To accomplish great things, we must dream as well as act." - Anatole France
going crown said: "Joe says: Quixtar is not Amway"
No, it's not because they are similar but different business models. You can not get twins from two brothers just because they are brothers!
Joe says: Really, then what changes are happening other than the corporation changing the name back to Amway in the next 18 months or so? Same headquarters, same products, same compensation plan, Amway IBOs became quixtar IBOs. Thanks for making my point.
going crown said: "Joe says: The system is vital to your success"
As a McDonalds franchisee, the McDonalds system is vital to your success too or else you fly off and "bye bye". Next!
Joe says: Then why do almost all McDonald's owners make money while almost all quixtar IBOs make nothing or lose monet?
going crown said: "Joe says: You too can share in tools profits"
Yes, absolutely but only when you reach Platinum level and above. What do you expect, from newbies to questionable people to teach on stage?
Joe says: Ever see a written compensation plan? No I thought not.
going crown said: "Joe says: If you succeed, it's because of the system. But if you fail, it's all your own fault."
Yes, I do believe that because there are instances in my life when I failed at accomplishing what I wanted. First, I blamed that on someone else but then I realized it was indeed my fault.
Joe says: Your upline taught you well. Follow the foolproof system but if you fail it's your own fault.
"Joe says: Really, then what changes are happening other than the corporation changing the name back to Amway in the next 18 months or so?"
What changes? Well, you should be able to tell me in full detail if you were deeply rooted within the corporation's logistics. Up to this point you made it clear that you are not and your question seems to reinforce the above. I am not a logistics player either but I have both, high expectations and much less complacency than you do.
Besides, I find it even funnier than you complain about "same headquarters, same... same... same..." What's your problem with the headquarters?
[Tim: discussion of genitals deleted.]
"Joe says: Then why do almost all McDonald's owners make money while almost all quixtar IBOs make nothing or lose monet?"
Is it because they believe in the system and act accordingly? Some do, some don't so, almost all, subjectively speaking, make money. Same with Quixtar.
Strictly speaking, all make money, regardless. Zero is a real quantity. So, making zero money is like making zero money for it is measurable. If zero were irrelevant, why does the decimal system make use of this quantity? Just as the digit one has its virtues so does zero. Hopefully though, you are looking at more than zero if you like to play with numbers. If you don't, zero is a perfect, neutral choice. But don't complain about it to others! It's your choice!
"Joe says: Ever see a written compensation plan? No I thought not."
I thought "yes" because I have litterature packs I hand out to my guests where the plan is explained in clear detail.
"Joe says: Your upline taught you well."
Not yet, since I figured that out before he stepped in even though I was in conscious denial of it up to that point. He just touched on the old story to make it more real.
going crown, quixtar has their own websites. They claim that they are switching the name "quixtar" back to Amway. There is no infrastrcuture changes. So therefore, as has been said all along, Amway = Quixtar, yet many IBOs deny it. What are they going to say after the name changes? Amway isn't Amway?
When I refer to compensation plan, I am talking about a writtem compensation plan for tools. Since a significant amount of income is generated from tools, perhaps even more than quixtar income, why are IBOs "told" about their opportunity to participate, but noone has ever shown a written document. IN the absence of a written document, you have no recourse if upline decides you aren't going to get your share of the tools income.
going crown said: Besides, I find it even funnier than you complain about "same headquarters, same... same... same..." What's your problem with the headquarters?
Joe says: Sure, because many IBOs have said quixtar is not Amway. So I point out that the headquarters are the same, the products are the same, the compensation plan is the same, and many amway diamonds because quixtar diamonds.
What's different about quixtar and amway other than the name? Why do many IBOs deny that quixtar is amway? The namechange back to amway confirms that is is just that, a namechange.
"Joe says: quixtar has their own websites. They claim that they are switching the name "quixtar" back to Amway. There is no infrastrcuture changes."
I know about the name change and there is a good reason why. The reason is not that Quixtar = Amway. As you know by now, both business opportunities are similar but not identical in terms of business model.
However, in terms of revenue and global influence, Amway has generated about 6 billion dollars this year while Quixtar has generated about 1.15 billion dollars.
Does that mean Quixtar is bad? No. Quixtar is less global than Amway, limited to Canada, USA and a few South/Central American countries. However, 1.15 billion dollars is not bad and given the online i-commerce nature of the Quixtar business model, it is understoodable the potential this business model has on a global scale.
So, Amway does very well and so does Quixtar. Given that Quixtar is newer, revolutionary in concept and still in its infancy stages when it comes to taking full advantage of the internet, it only makes sense to look at how Amway can benefit from the Quixtar business model.
Don't you think that De Vos and Van Andel families who own both of these businesses realize this potential? Don't you think that they would want to bring the best elements of the Quixtar business model into Amway? They sure do! In that process, they can also save a lot money and improve their business.
So, it makes sense. Look at the best aspects of the Quixtar business model, blend those aspects into the Amway business model, change that business model and in that process create a new, better business opportunity. The end result is that De Vos and Van Andel families will ask themselves these questions:
1)If Amway that was already a global, highly successful and highly praised name, has become so much better after marrying with Quixtar, why keep Quixtar around?
2)Wouldn't it make more sense to carry on with Amway after this transition is complete?
3) Wouldn't we save more money as a consequence of this transition and then put even more money into the compensation plan as a result?
4) Wouldn't the Amway name which is more recognized than Quixtar become even more familiar to everyone?
5) Wouldn't we be proud to make the transition into a brighter and better future by sticking to the American Way Corporation name a.k.a Amway that started the freedom enterprise revolution?
These five questions and more have already been asked by these two families. They do know what they are doing! Therefore, how come you are not part of their transition plans? I did not hear of this "Joecool, De Vos and Van Andel discuss the future of Amway and Quixtar in the 21st century" headline.
"Joe says: Sure, because many IBOs have said quixtar is not Amway. What's different about quixtar and amway other than the name? The namechange back to amway confirms that is is just that, a namechange"
So, it's much more than just a name change for the flaccid reason that you imply.
"Joe says: What are they going to say after the name changes?"
They are going to say why this change came into existence.
"Joe says: So I point out that the headquarters are the same, the products are the same, the compensation plan is the same, and many amway diamonds because quixtar diamonds. Why do many IBOs deny that quixtar is amway?"
Why do you specifically deny your opportunity to learn as you go? Is it because you are unwilling to by adhering to being the "mind games & opinion" man?
going crown, you are new in this business and you are just repeating what your upline has told you, without doing your own research.
If Amway was so great as you say, why did they create "quixtar"? Simple, because Amway's reputation isn't "soiled" in other countries as it is in the US and Canada. However, the motivational groups such as BWW and WWDB have done a great job in wrecking the reputation of the name quixtar.
On some of the quixtar websites, IBOs have come out stating that they do not want to change the name back to Amway. Why is that?
You also mention that Amway did about 6 billion in sales and quixtar accounted for over a billion. Great, but the leaders of "Team" have stated that only 3-4% of quixtar sales are to customers. That means Amway/Quixtar's products are nearly consumed exclusively by IBOs, and not to customers. If the products were so great, you would think that the IBOs could move more?
What happens is the IBOs sign up, and they quickly understand that prices are high, but they buy them anyway, because "moving your 100 PV", or your "personal circle" is what you need to do as a means to your success, residual income, jets, mansions, etc. Then when IBOs realize that they will not achieve those goals/dreams, they stop buying quixtar stuff. It explains why there are so few customers outside of those participating in the buiness.
"Joe says: you are new in this business and you are just repeating what your upline has told you, without doing your own research."
My upline has not been constantly telling me stuff. I did my own research too, including reading blogs such as this one. I call that a balanced view.
However, blogs like this one quickly turned me off because of the critics' infantile attitudes and failure to understand, explain or even believe in simple concepts such as "prosuming" as outlined by Bill Quain in his book.
To give you an example, I came across a posting by some guy who was claiming that the business does not work because its products are poor once he tried to use a lotion bottle that he could not squeeze because "my hands are not strong enough"! Amazing guy to say the least.
So, I quickly got turned off by like ramblings.
I also visited the sites they told me about and what I read was explained in a professional, mature attitude, all of which made sense to me because I did come onboard with a critical, close minded attitude.
I'm sorry, but I do not find anything compelling about these blogs in terms of credible information. It's mostly opinions, rumors, jealousy and stupidity.
"Joe says: If Amway was so great as you say, why did they create "quixtar"? Simple, because Amway's reputation isn't "soiled" in other countries as it is in the US and Canada."
How do you know for sure that this connection is the reason why? Quixtar was launched in 1999 when the internet started to kick in for businesses to go online. De Vos and Van Andel families were aware of that trend and said "why not take advantage of this?" So, they wanted to be on the safe side; they decided to go on with Amway globally in case things were not to turn out rosy, while using Canada and USA as a testing ground for a new online business model. That is hiow and why Quixtar was born. It was, is and will rule on for many generations to come. It is only going to get better.
"Joe says: However, the motivational groups such as BWW and WWDB have done a great job in wrecking the reputation of the name quixtar."
Very subjective based on personal views and reasons. People have a say on anything, whether true or not. So, it's expected to have a rough image but in the end, it's up to the individual to use proper judgement and discretion and stop basing his views on what simply anyone out there says.
"Joe says: Great, but the leaders of "Team" have stated that only 3-4% of quixtar sales are to customers. That means Amway/Quixtar's products are nearly consumed exclusively by IBOs, and not to customers."
They have the right to say whatever they want and their reputation can be measured based on their integrity. Besides, I'm still surprised that you have this obsession to define a customer as someone who buys from Walmart. IBOs are both, business people and customers because they move products, create a cash flow to and from their their pockets while they also consume products like anyone else does on a daily basis when they shop from Walmart. Does this grade 4 English level explanation make sense to you?
"Joe says: "moving your 100 PV", or your "personal circle" is what you need to do as a means to your success, residual income, ... "
Moving products as a McDonalds franchise owner is what you need to do as a means to your business success as well, no? Hello?!
The products have little to do with whether the quixtar opportunity works or not. IMO, some of the products are good, some aren't. Some have value, some don't. Overall, I don't see that you get much value if you are shooting for 100 PV.
Are you basing your opinion of the business on the basis of Bill Quain's book? Wow, diamond leader reads the book. The book reflects the diamond's view on how he wants to run the business so he promotoes it. No bias there.
If quixtar is so great, why change the name back to quixtar? Do you believe that there isn't a reputation problem with thename quixtar or amway? Don't fool yourself.
going crown said: Moving products as a McDonalds franchise owner is what you need to do as a means to your business success as well, no? Hello?!
Joe says: Does a McDonald's owner sell 95 out of every 100 big macs to his family and employees? Hello? They have customers, something IBOs don't have enough of. That's why if you go back and look at my breakdown of the 6-4-2 plan, you will see that almost everyone on the chart loses money or makes so little that it's better to work for minimum wage.
If quixtar/amway is so great as you claim answer this: Quixtar started in 1999. going diamond is a 2-5 year plan. Quixtar's been around for 8 years.
How many quixtar only diamonds are there? IBOs who signed up in "Quixtar" and went diamond. Last I heard, there were a small handful, maybe 3-5.
Anna Bryce who works for quixtar said there were 160 diamondships at diamond club this year in Hawaii. Most of those diamonds were amway diamonds who converted to quixtar.
Where's the success?
You're more likely to "go bankrupt" and to "go crown".
The products have little to do with whether the quixtar opportunity works or not. IMO, some of the products are good, some aren't. Some have value, some don't. Overall, I don't see that you get much value if you are shooting for 100 PV.
Are you basing your opinion of the business on the basis of Bill Quain's book? Wow, diamond leader reads the book. The book reflects the diamond's view on how he wants to run the business so he promotoes it. No bias there.
If quixtar is so great, why change the name back to quixtar? Do you believe that there isn't a reputation problem with thename quixtar or amway? Don't fool yourself.
going crown said: Moving products as a McDonalds franchise owner is what you need to do as a means to your business success as well, no? Hello?!
Joe says: Does a McDonald's owner sell 95 out of every 100 big macs to his family and employees? Hello? They have customers, something IBOs don't have enough of. That's why if you go back and look at my breakdown of the 6-4-2 plan, you will see that almost everyone on the chart loses money or makes so little that it's better to work for minimum wage.
If quixtar/amway is so great as you claim answer this: Quixtar started in 1999. going diamond is a 2-5 year plan. Quixtar's been around for 8 years.
How many quixtar only diamonds are there? IBOs who signed up in "Quixtar" and went diamond. Last I heard, there were a small handful, maybe 3-5.
Anna Bryce who works for quixtar said there were 160 diamondships at diamond club this year in Hawaii. Most of those diamonds were amway diamonds who converted to quixtar.
Where's the success?
You're more likely to "go bankrupt" than to "go crown".
"Joe says: Are you basing your opinion of the business on the basis of Bill Quain's book? Wow, diamond leader reads the book. The book reflects the diamond's view on how he wants to run the business so he promotoes it. No bias there."
What is wrong in basing my opinion of the business on the basis of Bill Quian's book? After all, his book reveals the core concept behind the business! Besides, it is not the diamond leaders who read this book. You are mistaken. This book is given as the first reading material for people introduced to the business so that they understand the nature of the business opportunity that is being offered to them. Wait a minute, just because I read the book when I got started, that means that I am a diamond! A diamond in the conception state, rising from the bottom and striving for the top. Yes, that makes sense. You know what you did? You actually encouraged me to believe more in myself, to believe that I am a diamond, that I must succeed and so will I! No bias there!
"Joe says: If quixtar is so great, why change the name back to quixtar? Do you believe that there isn't a reputation problem with thename quixtar or amway? Don't fool yourself."
This has already been explained in my last posting. A question for you. Do you actually read what is being posted or do you just copy and paste only to make another silly comment? That way you do look indeed silly.
As for the reputation problem, the is a very subjective personal view, not an universal view unless all agree to the same view, which is not the actual case.
One thing which I can say contributes to the reputation problem is that people like you are responsible for creating this bad publicity. You take whatever personal reasons you have and you promote them to the level of a political agenda. Your other blog promotes the exact same agenda.
"Joe says: Does a McDonald's owner sell 95 out of every 100 big macs to his family and employees? Hello? They have customers, something IBOs don't have enough of."
Again, this is something that has been explained in my previous postings. Yet, another copy and paste to which you add the same remarks. This is silly. Does this have something to do with you?
"Joe says: If quixtar/amway is so great as you claim answer this: Quixtar started in 1999. going diamond is a 2-5 year plan. Quixtar's been around for 8 years. How many quixtar only diamonds are there? IBOs who signed up in "Quixtar" and went diamond. Last I heard, there were a small handful, maybe 3-5."
How many fresh IBOs become diamonds? There is no written statement that says "this many people become diamonds, guaranteed!"
The number depends on the people only. Who wants to go diamond? The answer; each one can decide for himself. Some guy may want to go diamond while another one wants to just make an extra $ 1000 per month. I, for example, want to go crown. Will it be easy? No. That is another factor that people take into account when answering that question. The fact that there are five or more diamonds really says it all; it can be done. You decide whether you do it or not. Not you, not me, not anyone else.
"Joe says: Anna Bryce who works for quixtar said there were 160 diamondships at diamond club this year in Hawaii. Most of those diamonds were amway diamonds who converted to quixtar."
160 >= 5, right? Again, it proves that it can be done!
"Joe says: Where's the success?"
In the numbers who have done it!
going crown says: One thing which I can say contributes to the reputation problem is that people like you are responsible for creating this bad publicity. You take whatever personal reasons you have and you promote them to the level of a political agenda. Your other blog promotes the exact same agenda.
Joe says: No, IBOs do a great job of smearing the corpration's reputation. Doing things like calling people losers or quitters, lying and deceit by IBOs do plenty to soil the reputation.
I just point that out to potential recruits.
So in a 2-5 year plan since 1999, over a million registered IBOs and 3-5 have gone diamond - you think that's a great rate of success? Your chance of winning a lottery might be better.
You want to know why IBOs give Quixtar a bad name? Here's some examples:
While all you broke losers are going to work I will be sleeping in. I will make sure that I hire you to clean my toliets. And don't worry I will make sure that you get good benefits .
There is no excuse for cowards. You are guys make me want to throw up.
Posted by: Ryan Hicks at July 27, 2005 07:06 PM
Rocket, DF, Imran, Big Dog,
Or what ever else you broke losers want to call yourselves. Just admit that you didn't have the 'balls ' to build this business.
I going to be retiring in the next 6 mths making $5000 a mth. So eat that crybabies!
Posted by: Smith | July 27, 2005 04:53 PM
"Joe says: Joe says: No, IBOs do a great job of smearing the corpration's reputation. I just point that out to potential recruits."
All or some IBOs? I guess some do but then, why are they your only focus?
Focus on the opportunity, on those who want to make it work and who achieve results and stop making bad people examples your focus because you don't work with them in the first place.
By the way, you are not required to point that out to potential candidates. If they are able to judge for themselves, they will choose what suits them best.
Besides, given your experience in this business as partially highlighted by your comments to my questions and those you make on your own blog, makes one conclude that you are not exactly the right person to listen to when it comes to this business.
You don't even understand the concept of prosuming which is the very foundation of this business.
"Joe says: So in a 2-5 year plan since 1999, over a million registered IBOs and 3-5 have gone diamond - you think that's a great rate of success?"
Three to five that you have personally heard of? Is that the proof by which you measure success in this business beyond reasonable doubt?
It's like saying "oh, a few people passed the literacy class since it came into being a few years ago so I guess, you know, is that a great rate of success?" Literacy dude, come on! This business is like a literacy class where you learn how to think and grow rich (same title of Napoleon Hill's book).
I find it curious that you lack belief in the business and no wonder you are into error. Earlier on you stated that "Anna Bryce who works for quixtar said there were 160 diamondships at diamond club this year in Hawaii." So, it proves that literacy class has nothing to do with who passes it and who doesn't.
"Joe says: You want to know why IBOs give Quixtar a bad name? Here's some examples:"
I am aware of these examples. My view is that these people have been perhaps a bit too blunt in their statements.
However, I do agree with them on the points they make. Yes, the points hurt either way; when they are made bluntly or when they are made softly. You should look into yourselves and realize if there is some truth to it.
In your case, poor belief coupled with an obsessively, complacency riddled attitude and lack of knowledge, make a strong case for self image identification, either willingly or unwillingly in your person. In others' case, they are bound by the exact same requirement, pertaining on a case by case basis.
I am a soft individual thus, I venture deeper than a slow tempered man does. The net effect is that it may hurt more that way. Are you proud yet?
Ok, "going crown", let's look at numbers again.
Quixtar reports that the average PV per "active" IBO is 38. Based on that, to be a platinum, you would need to have 197+ IBOs in your business/downline.
Of course, some IBOs will do little or nothing and some might even do 100+ or 300+ PV.
Let's say about a third of that group (say 60)are consistent and do 100 PV and are on standing order, and attend functions (Pretty consistent).
Can we agree that a group like that is quite possible?
Ok, so the platinum group does 7500 PV, and I understand that 7500 PV is about 18,750 BV.
The group has to spend about $21,000 to generate 7500 PV ($280 = 100PV). That 7500PV/18750BV
gets you a bonus of $4867.
Let's say each IBO spends $100 a month (very conservative) for KATE, Website, Standing Order, and monthly and major functions, babysitters, gas, etc)
So now your group of 60 consistent CORE IBOs spent $21,000 on goods - and generated a bonus of $4867 (Platinum gets the lion's shareof that).
Your group has also spent $6000 month on tools. Your group has lost $1133 and that loss will continue month after month after month. The names and faces may change but the math does not. The "successful" IBOs make their money off the back of their downline thru the sale of overpriced products and tools.
Overall, the downline would be better off giving their upline a check for $50 a month and not participating in the "awesome" quixtar opportunity.
You are far more likely to "go broke" than you are to "go platinum).
"Joe says: Quixtar reports that the average PV per "active" IBO is 38. Based on that, to be a platinum, you would need to have 197+ IBOs in your business/downline.
Of course, some IBOs will do little or nothing and some might even do 100+ or 300+ PV.
Let's say about a third of that group (say 60)are consistent and do 100 PV and are on standing order, and attend functions (Pretty consistent).
Can we agree that a group like that is quite possible?"
Yes, I do agree to such possible scenario. Can be better, can be worse. This is an opportunity, not a guarantee and besides, models do not work exactly in practice as they do in theory. I guess we all complicate matters and that contributes as well to this being the case. However, any scenario should not inspire fear and despair in us, it should make us bolder and stronger in faith. That makes us leaders into becoming. Do you think that the people who qualified at diamond level didn't have to face quite a few scenarios?
"Joe says: The "successful" IBOs make their money off the back of their downline thru the sale of overpriced products and tools."
Again, this has been discussed. Please, rethink of at least one day to day situation where the same concept is at work (not necessarily the same action).
"Joe says: Overall, the downline would be better off giving their upline a check for $50 a month and not participating in the "awesome" quixtar opportunity."
Hoe exactly are trying to imply that to happen?
going crown said: Again, this has been discussed. Please, rethink of at least one day to day situation where the same concept is at work (not necessarily the same action).
Joe says: Ok, let me explain it very slowly so can can get it.
I have a job - I go to work and get paid. WIth my paycheck, I pay for my home, car, electric bills, groceries and other things I need, and also for whatever entertainment I enjoy.
Quixtar IBOs also have a job, but in addition to paying for their home car and other neccessities, the quixtar IBO's paycheck must also cover the expenses of tapes/cds, book and quixtar functions. That is because the majority of quixtar IBOs don't make enough money from their businesses to cover the expenses.
Quixtar reports that the "average" IBO earns $115 a month, but that's because huge diamonds like bill britt are factored in. "Most" IBOs, such as "going crown" earn $8 a month, and if on the system, spend $100 to $300 on business support materials.
Going crown said: "My first cheque was $ 7.85 and my second cheque in going to be more."
Joe says: going crown fits the description of what I just described. An IBO getting an $8 check and spending more than that on business support materials. Many former IBOs have confirmed that giving upline a check for $50 a month and not doing quixtar would have been a better deal.
"Joe says: Ok, let me explain it very slowly so can can get it. I have a job - I go to work and get paid. WIth my paycheck, I pay for my home, car, electric bills, groceries and other things I need, and also for whatever entertainment I enjoy."
Yes, I already knew that; first, you have proven it all along by talking business from the perspective of someone with "employee mentality" and second, you have reinforced that proof by openly stating that you have a job, that you are an employee and that employee mentality is what drives you 9 to 5, five days a week or whatever schedule you have. Nothing wrong with that, that's awesome!
Yet, it is evident that employee mentality is your point forte. Let me ask you this; have you ever pursued any business venture at all instead of just flirting with it and treating it like an employee?
"Joe says: Quixtar IBOs also have a job, but in addition to paying for their home car and other neccessities, the quixtar IBO's paycheck must also cover the expenses of tapes/cds, book and quixtar functions."
Quixtar IBOs also have a job... wow! WOW! What can I say! You are not the first guy who thinks that IBO = employee! You are not the first guy who belives that job = business! You are not the first guy who believes that active income = passive income! You are not the first guy who belives in and shares opinions and misinformation on the net!
That I know from once meeting a guy on Youtube who was saying that 70% of Quixtar employees make at most $ 115!!! What a smart guy! WOW! I never knew about the 70% so guess what, I'm dying to know what about the other 30%!
So, there's some money going to CDs, books and functions too! WOW! I never knew anything about that either! Guess I was dumb! And yet, you do not seem to have a problem that you were in debt after spending tens of thousands of dollars on college or university, you thought that that's normal and maybe even that "YES, IT IS GOOD TO BE IN DEBT!" Somehow, you seem to have a problem, that it's not normal when some money is invested into a system to educate you on how to become a better business and day to day person! Plus, the kind of money you invest into the system is only a fraction of what you used to pay for going to college or university. It amazes me how some people think and complain about it while they believe that being tens of thousands of dollars in debt to college or university is not only ok, but reason to be proud of!
"Joe says: Quixtar reports that the "average" IBO earns $115 a month, but that's because huge diamonds like bill britt are factored in."
Huh? Come again?
"Joe says: "Most" IBOs, such as "going crown" earn $8 a month, and if on the system, spend $100 to $300 on business support materials. going crown fits the description of what I just described. An IBO getting an $8 check and spending more than that on business support materials."
You have clearly nailed your stupidity on a wall for all to wonder at! You don't even know me or what's happening in my day to day life and yet, you crave into stone assumptions such that $ 8 is the top money I make or can possibly make and that your assumptions are the reality!
For your information buddy, my last check was $ 15.66. That is more than eight, don't you think? So yeah, you can pass by $ 15.66 too on your way to financial freedom for you are not stuck at $ 15.66 just because that's the top money one can possibly ever make!
And yet, again you bitch about $100 to $300 per month that goes into education but somehow you seem to be ok, think it's normal and maybe even be proud that you are tens of thousands of dollars in debt to college or university!
going crown said: Yet, it is evident that employee mentality is your point forte. Let me ask you this; have you ever pursued any business venture at all instead of just flirting with it and treating it like an employee?
Joe says: What is employee mentality? Nearly all IBOs have jobs - so they have employee mentality?
going crown said: So, there's some money going to CDs, books and functions too! WOW! I never knew anything about that either! Guess I was dumb!
Joe says: There was a time when diamonds lied and said nobody profited from tools. Think they are truthful about their profits now?
going crown said: And yet, you do not seem to have a problem that you were in debt after spending tens of thousands of dollars on college or university
Joe says: It's documented that college grads make more money that non college grads. It's this type of reasoning why you IBOs must be stopped. I have seen young kids discouraged from attending college by some IBOs and it's just wrong.
going crown said: For your information buddy, my last check was $ 15.66. That is more than eight, don't you think? So yeah, you can pass by $ 15.66 too on your way to financial freedom for you are not stuck at $ 15.66 just because that's the top money one can possibly ever make!
Joe says: You're still operating at a loss aren't you? Shrewd.
Ok, buddy listen. I'm still laughing so, don't mind if you hear me laughing still, ok? Good, here we go... again!
"Joe says: What is employee mentality? Nearly all IBOs have jobs - so they have employee mentality?"
There are a few angles from which one can view employee mentality.
1) Defining oneself in terms of his way of making money.
2) Defining oneself in his own terms regardless of the way he makes money
3) Defining oneself in paradoxical terms regardless of the way he makes money
You, mix this definition by gradually converging the first two angles into the third.
First of all, you seem to ascribe the general term "job" to the traditional "job".
Being in business for yourself is a job because it is the manifestation of a desire through which the requirement to fulfillment must pass. Therefore, your "job" as a business owner is to think and act like one in order to become a long term passive income generating business.
Being an employee is the manifestation of the job itself through which you trade time for dollars. Therefore, your job requires you to think and act like an employee in order to generate short term active income or else, to find yourself another job where the cycle repeats itself.
Second, you seem to be struggling one way only to go in the reverse.
You state that "Nearly all IBOs have jobs - so they have employee mentality?"
In that case you confuse the interchanging use of the term "job" in your statements and thus, this confusion helps explain why you think as an employee given your confession in this regard.
Third, you seem to elect a few IBOs towards belonging to a group with no jobs. What are the chances of them not having employee mentality as you seem to suggest? Probably slim, in view of the above yet pretty reasonable were it to be true in view of your comprehensive duality.
Fourth, you seem to be reasonable in your view of being both, an employee and a business owner.
In that case, it is rightful to ask oneself if being a business owner is worth one's time and energy if that specific person builds her business thinking like an employee and not like a business owner.
"Joe says: There was a time when diamonds lied and said nobody profited from tools."
Nobody profited from tools in the business because this business is about products and services people have access to.
On the other hand, the educational system is another separate business with a select group of people. People who are the platinum level and above do profit from the educational system. Why? Because they can teach what they have gone through to make it where they are at today. Therefore, do not expect newbies or questionable people to be part of and make profit from the educational system.
"Joe says: It's documented that college grads make more money that non college grads. It's this type of reasoning why you IBOs must be stopped."
It is also documented that people such as Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Kirk Kerkorian, Lawrence Ellison, Sheldon Adelson and many others with education levels ranging from university drop outs to grade 8 education have become billionaires. It's this type of reasoning why people like you with average, mediocre thinking yet, convincing grammatical constructs skills are a danger to dreamers.
"Joe says: You're still operating at a loss aren't you? Shrewd."
Short term thinking says it's a loss but long term thinking vindicates the loss as a several orders of magnitude investment.
going crown, employee mentality is not much different than that of a business owner. You still have tasks which you need to complete in order to accomplish your goals/work.
You are thinking that you will work and eventually "walk away" from your quixtar business and collect "residual income". That's a myth. Although there are probably some IBOs who may be able to do it, (britt, puryear come to mind) there are probably millions of IBOs who thought they would do the same thing, but will never come close.
Here's the real issue. It is possible to achieve some kind of significant income from quixtar. "It's possible", but it's "unlikely".
When you have IBOs telling kids to skip college and pin their hopes on quixtar, that's bad advice. Also advising people to put everything into quixtar as their retirement plan - that's bad advice and it seems to still be happening in some groups. Only about 1 in 240 ever reach platinum and 1 in 14,000 reach diamond. WIth those odds, you are better off with a job than a quixtar business.
going crown said: On the other hand, the educational system is another separate business with a select group of people. People who are the platinum level and above do profit from the educational system.
Joe says: When I was an IBO, we were told that NOBODY made a cent from the tools/BSMs. My upline told us that profits from tools were reinvested to make functions cheaper. But functions have never gotten cheaper have they?
"Joe says: going crown, employee mentality is not much different than that of a business owner. You still have tasks which you need to complete in order to accomplish your goals/work."
Yes, to a certain extent including your statement about goal accomplishment. However, these two mentalities start to diverge past that.
The employee does not really think or I should say, is trained to not think leverage but to be a model employee, who takes orders, does not question, does not dream, keeps his nose clean and be happy where he is at.
The business owner trains himself on how to be a model of success by reversing all of the above.
"Joe says: You are thinking that you will work and eventually "walk away" from your quixtar business and collect "residual income". That's a myth."
Are you a living proof of the above?
"Joe says: Although there are probably some IBOs who may be able to do it, (britt, puryear come to mind) there are probably millions of IBOs who thought they would do the same thing, but will never come close."
Here is where faith clashes with heresy. On one hand you are an open self confessed faithful believer and on the other hand you are a self proclaimed heretic! I have witnessed this scenario too often to just miss it.
You do believe that people, in general can make it but not because they are like the mentioned individuals else, comparison to other people would be the flaw in cause which is employed by many to justify others' net worth in terms of comparing them with others even on ungrounded principles.
You see, people have a choice regardless of the numbers their represent. Choice starts with the individual as do his works and the net results in accordance to his choices. Therefore, one's accomplishments depend on his marriage of faith and choice. The outcome is his to decide and his alone. I have no say in who reaches or not that level except for one which is me. That choice has already been made and it is immutable.
"Joe says: Here's the real issue. It is possible to achieve some kind of significant income from quixtar."
Confess to your heresy and it shall be acknowledged before and by all.
"Joe says: "It's possible", but it's "unlikely"."
Were it unlikely, possibility would reside in faith alone. For how much more does faith prevail when possibility makes room for likelihood? Therefore unlikeness has been replaced by hope as you stated in your sentence opening!
"Joes says: But functions have never gotten cheaper have they?"
But have they gotten more expansive than the functions held by Donald Trump, Tony Robbins or John Maxwell to name just a few?
going crown says: The employee does not really think or I should say, is trained to not think leverage but to be a model employee, who takes orders, does not question, does not dream, keeps his nose clean and be happy where he is at.
The business owner trains himself on how to be a model of success by reversing all of the above.
Joe says: Since most involved in quixtar are employees, why would they find any interest in quixtar?
going crown says; Here is where faith clashes with heresy. On one hand you are an open self confessed faithful believer and on the other hand you are a self proclaimed heretic! I have witnessed this scenario too often to just miss it.
joe says; Is this a church or an opportunity/
going crown said: But have they gotten more expansive than the functions held by Donald Trump, Tony Robbins or John Maxwell to name just a few?
Joe says; quixtar functions happen every month, you only attend a Tony R. seminar once. Oh and Tony R. is in the motivational industry, isn't the quixtar opportunity one where you move products?
"Joe says: Since most involved in quixtar are employees, why would they find any interest in quixtar?"
I'm sorry if this may sound offending to you but, do you do any drugs by chance? Do you drink at work? Just trying to figure out your intellectual competency at least for the time being.
Why would they find interest? Each individual can answer that question with a "yes" or a "no" based on both, who he or she is in terms of self character as well as where they are at in life and more important where they would like to be in life. Are you able to come up this simple, real answer?
"Joe says: Is this a church or an opportunity/"
This is an opportunity but not a church opportunity; a business opportunity.
"Joe says: quixtar functions happen every month, you only attend a Tony R. seminar once."
They happen every month... wow! I guess I didn't know about that either! Functions happens at intervals of months.
Last function I went to was in April, not May, not June, July or August! Besides, if I can't attend a function, no one is going to kill me!
Same with seminars by Tony Robbins. What do you mean by attending his seminar only once? Once in a lifetime? Once a year? Or what? I don't understand the nature of that statement.
"Joe says: Oh and Tony R. is in the motivational industry, isn't the quixtar opportunity one where you move products?"
Yes, it is. Before you take advantage of the opportunity, isn't it better to get some training in order to know how to properly operate and develop people skills? That's where the educational system comes in, not Quixtar! Quixtar is the opportunity, the educational system teaches you to make most of the opportunity! Why are we even talking about this at the present stage if you claim to understand this business so well?
going crown, what is the quixtar (soon to be amway) business? You buy and sell products and you share the idea with others in hopes of gaining customers and/or downline IBOs.
Agreed?
Ok, now if you're on standing order, you get 6 tapes/cds a month, and say you buy an extra tape each week.
That's 124 tapes in a year and in that year, you would have probably attended 8 regional functions and 4 major functions, plus a dozen open meetings and dozens of team meetings.
What is so difficult about " buy and sell products and you share the idea with others in hopes of gaining customers and/or downline IBOs." that you need 124 tapes/cds and dozen of meetings?
Do people pay to see Tony Robbins once a month?
And to add to all that, that's one year's worth of tools. If you stay in 5 years, you will then have 620 tapes/cds and hundreds of meetings.
Plus you have to overcome the bad reputation that quixtar/amway has.
If you have the drive and motivation to succeed and be above average, why not find something easier than quixtar?
going crown, you said you got $7.85 in your first month and $15.66 the next month.
That means you did 100 PV and about 261.5 BV
in month 1 and you did about 200 PV and 522 BV in month 2.
If you actually received $15.66, that means you moved all the volume but did not sponsor anyone yet, or did you sponsor downline to increase your volume?
I know you're new, but if you listen to enuogh tapes/cds, you'll notive one common theme. All the people who went on to diamond were able to go platinum in less than a full year.
You are currently behind that pace based on your own statements. Have you made an assessment of your business and whether it is actually working?
"Joe says: going crown, what is the quixtar (soon to be amway) business? You buy and sell products and you share the idea with others in hopes of gaining customers and/or downline IBOs. Agreed?"
Not sure why now, at least I was agreeing maybe with myself from the very start but you did not reveal your agreement, including the bilateral one until this moment!
At least, if we agree on this point, that is a good start. The better part is this, do you agree that it works if you do whatever it takes to make it work? Not just on paper!
"Joe says: What is so difficult about " buy and sell products and you share the idea with others in hopes of gaining customers and/or downline IBOs." that you need 124 tapes/cds and dozen of meetings?"
I am glad you ask that! The answer, I DON'T KNOW WHY IT SHOULD BE SO DIFFICULT TO DO IT! People come from diverse backgrounds and more often than not, tend to complicate and misinterpret things. So, they need to train themselves in those aspects and some more. This is the second most important reason why the educational system in place.
The first reason is this; you have a system and you need to expose it to people along with how to work the system properly.
To tell you the truth in my case, it was fear, preconceived notions and inconsistency the very reasons why I need the educational materials to outgrow these problems even to this day still.
"Joe says: If you actually received $15.66, that means you moved all the volume but did not sponsor anyone yet, or did you sponsor downline to increase your volume?"
Yes, I did sponsor one person to achieve that level.
going crown said: "Joe says: If you actually received $15.66, that means you moved all the volume but did not sponsor anyone yet, or did you sponsor downline to increase your volume?"
Yes, I did sponsor one person to achieve that level.
Joe says: So out of that $15.66, how much did your downline receive? If you sponsored one person and you each did 100 PV, then your downline earned half of that $15.66 right?
Even if people come in with different backgrounds and whatever,please tell me what is so earthshattering about selling products and sharingteh idea that in one year's time, they need over 100 tapes/cds and dozens of meetings to learn such a simple concept?
"Joe says: So out of that $15.66, how much did your downline receive? If you sponsored one person and you each did 100 PV, then your downline earned half of that $15.66 right?"
Yes, he did earn half because his business is at 100 PV while mine is at 200 PV. When you get good structure and performance, you make solid income.
For instance, if the guy I sponsored has a better group structure and performance than mine, he makes more money then me, even though I may have more PV in my circle than he has in his. Do you understand this?
"Joe says: what is so earthshattering about selling products"
And your point is ?! ... ...
So combined, the two if you made $15.66. How much did the two of your spend on tapes/cds, books and seminars?
At what point do you expect to make a profit?
At what point do you expect your downline to profit?
going crown said: "Joe says: what is so earthshattering about selling products"
And your point is ?! ... ...
Joe says: The point is if the concept is so easy, why do you need so many tapes/cds and functions?
I was thinking about "going crown's
business. THis is his third month and he has sponsored one downline. He made $7.85 the first month and $15.66 the second month.
Honest question: Aren't you supposed to sponsor two people each month? If not, you're not on track to even go platinum.
How many plans are you showing? If you're having trouble getting people in front of the plan, and you are new, it certainly is not going to get easier as time moves on.
"Joe says: How much did the two of your spend on tapes/cds, books and seminars?"
Listen, I still don't understand what really itches your ass about the educational system. You do know and are well aware that any system out there is powered by a parallel educational system.
"Joe says: The point is if the concept is so easy, why do you need so many tapes/cds and functions?"
I have already answered that question.
"Joe says: I was thinking about "going crown's
business. THis is his third month and he has sponsored one downline. He made $7.85 the first month and $15.66 the second month."
And how many people did you, if ever, sponsor in the same time frame? I sponsored that many but that does not mean I stop there or that I will keep it that way.
"Joe says: Honest question: Aren't you supposed to sponsor two people each month?"
Honest answer: no, I am not. Everything is optional. I was even told that. I am free to choose as I please. That keeps me happy.
"Joe says: If you're having trouble getting people in front of the plan, and you are new, it certainly is not going to get easier as time moves on."
Have you ever heard that change is inevitable?
going crown, you're not on pace to "go crown".
Why am I against the tapes/cds and seminars?
Because the diamond teach that it's the key to your success, but all it does is put money in their pockets and take money out of your pockets.
See all the wealth the diamonds have? Much of it comes from thousands of people buying tapes and attending seminars.
FYI, when I was in the "biz", I sponsored 12 people in 6 months. I had "eagle" parameters and still lost money - because of the tapes and seminars.
Everything is optional? No - it's a defacto requirement. "You need to attend this seminar".
Nobody has succeeded without the tapes, but you can try to be the first.
Change is inevitable, but it doesn't mean that change will make you successful in the amway business.
going crown said: Listen, I still don't understand what really itches your ass about the educational system. You do know and are well aware that any system out there is powered by a parallel educational system.
Joe says: But if I take a history class in college, I buy a history book, and it teaches me about history. Quixtar tapes and seminars contain very little useful information about how to build a profitable quixtar business.
Also, I find it to be a huge conflict of interest when the diamonds tell you that tapes and seminars are the key to your success when few people actually make money in quixtar, and the fact that many diamonds get the lion's share of their income from the tapes and seminars and not from quixtar.
*Buy products, sell products, share the concept with others. Pretty simple. Why do you need and endless supply of tapes and seminars to teach you such a simple concept? Are IBOs learning impaired where they cannot grasp such a simple concept? :D
going crown, your third month in quixtar has now ended. What more have you accomplished? What plans do you have to realistically evaluate your business?
Buddy, let me make myself clear here, ok? I know, I take great pains to reexplain this to you but here I go... again.
"Joe says: Why am I against the tapes/cds and seminars? Because the diamond teach that it's the key to your success, but all it does is put money in their pockets and take money out of your pockets. See all the wealth the diamonds have? Much of it comes from thousands of people buying tapes and attending seminars."
You confuse two things here, either on purpose or not.
The educational materials aren't your key to success just because they exist and sit in a corner. You have to make conscious use of them by studying and applying them so to earn your way to success. They are key to your success but not if they just sit in a corner instead of your brain.
D-o y-o-u u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d t-h-i-s ?
Oh, yes there is money to be made in the educational system too once you reach a level where you actually do and teach what you do once you have a solid business going.
It's the same like you saying "See all the money (wealth) the teachers have? Much of it comes from thousands of students buying educational material and attending classes. Some of it even comes from tutoring them in private!"
"Joe says: FYI, when I was in the "biz", I sponsored 12 people in 6 months. I had "eagle" parameters and still lost money - because of the tapes and seminars."
Wow, what can I say! I don't know how you managed that part in your personal business so, I won't comment. Fact is, you did something that obviously did not work well for you. But then, why complain about it for the whole world to see?
"Joe says: Everything is optional? No - it's a defacto requirement."
Because the system does not work by itself. Choice makes it work or not. Choice is an option you make but then it's also optional to make a choice, no? Chose and reap accordingly. No force in that process. Optional to chose to or chose not to.
"Joe says: Change is inevitable, but it doesn't mean that change will make you successful in the amway business."
You are right. You make yourself an example of good or bad change. I agree with that. So, what kind of example are you?
"Joe says: Joe says: But if I take a history class in college, I buy a history book, and it teaches me about history. Quixtar tapes and seminars contain very little useful information about how to build a profitable quixtar business."
Not really. I like what I hear and that even motivates me to go ahead and do something about it. Yeah, if I just listen to them like I would to a song, it contains very little useful information. All I hear is the noise but not the substance.
"Joe says: Why do you need and endless supply of tapes and seminars to teach you such a simple concept?"
I have already explained that. This is the third time you ask this.
Do you actually read the replies or do you just copy and paste only to b****** again?
See, you were right about the very little information one gets especially, if all he does is just to listen to in a void and in your case, copy and paste premerging the b******* time!
"Joe says: Are IBOs learning impaired where they cannot grasp such a simple concept? :D"
I guess we all are to some degree, true?
"Joe says: going crown, your third month in quixtar has now ended. What more have you accomplished? What plans do you have to realistically evaluate your business?"
To go crown by doing whatever it takes.
going crown said: The educational materials aren't your key to success just because they exist and sit in a corner. You have to make conscious use of them by studying and applying them so to earn your way to success. They are key to your success but not if they just sit in a corner instead of your brain.
Joe says: No, they don't work. They don't teach you to run a profitable quixtar business. They teach you not to quit and to buy more and more tapes and seminar tickets.
going crown said: Oh, yes there is money to be made in the educational system too once you reach a level where you actually do and teach what you do once you have a solid business going.
Joe says: Sure, everyone says that. Got a written contract to verify this? Not one IBO has produced one yet.
going crown said: To go crown by doing whatever it takes.
Joe says: Wow, I've never hear that before (roll eyes)
Are you going to answer my question now? Let me ask it again:
Your third month in quixtar has now ended. What more have you accomplished? What plans do you have to realistically evaluate your business?
Going crown, when do you expect to see a net profit from your business?
"Joe says: No, they don't work. They teach you not to quit and to buy more and more tapes and seminar tickets."
Really? I don't recall ever, EVER, anywhere where it explicitly says that you have to do any of the above just for the sake of doing it and stop there!
What I heard is people teaching how they overcame obstacles and what advice they give based on their personal struggles.
That is the main message of the educational system; learn, overcome and grow!
People who did all of the above share their personal stories. That is why you have so many CDs to listen to. Everyone has a different personality and thus, a different story.
Along the way, you can hear a CD by someone that you may very well relate to! How much better will you feel then when you will acknowledge that "Hey, I'm not the only guy in that situation. I see someone here who was just like me and this is how he did what he did to overcome. Hey, now I can learn what I need to! I am feeling much more confident now! I am not alone!"
But hey, if you just buy material and never use it or apply it then, I'm sorry to say that you must be both dumb and dumber. Whining about it is not going to help out but will convert you into a loser.
"*Going Crown* says: Oh, yes there is money to be made in the educational system too once you reach a level where you actually do and teach what you do once you have a solid business going.
Joe says: Sure, everyone says that. Got a written contract to verify this? Not one IBO has produced one yet."
Yes, I say that too because it makes sense to any individual with a decently well functioning brain!
So, let me ask you this, when you went to university who thought the physics class on day one, you or the teacher? If it's you, you are either a genius or a ludicrous fool! Especially if you were failing physics in high school!
So, let me ask you the second question, have you asked your physics teacher for a written contract to verify that he makes money as he teaches physics? I guess that neither he nor any other teacher has produced one yet!
"Joe says: Wow, I've never hear that before (roll eyes)"
Oh, I did! Hahaha! Is your hysteria menopause induced?
"Joe says: Going crown, when do you expect to see a net profit from your business?"
I expect to see it once my work is consistent and my excuses are inconsistent.
So going crown, you don't think the fact that there is no written tools contract is a bit shady? Even though you may have heard verbally that there is compensation, if you were to be denied that compensation, what recourse would you have?
going crown said: I expect to see it once my work is consistent and my excuses are inconsistent.
Joe says: And when is that going to happen?
All you have accomplished so far is lose money three months in a row, and you have one downline who is losing money.
Hi there! My name "Going Crown" and I had my post deleted because I was unable to read and follow the comment rules for this forum.
In particular, in this comment, I swore, and had nothing more to say to my opponent than "you suck", violating the rule against abuse and obscenity.
In so doing, I demonstrated I had very little substance to my argument, and that I should probably get another hobby.
Hahaha, the internet is the bathroom wall of society? Like www.Thisbiznow.com?
I guess this is the point where you no longer can mount a logical debate base on facts and cannot explain how your current progress will lead you to success so now you start to call me names as a way to deflect the current discussion away fromyou business.
Thanks, you do a better job of making my point than I do.
Buddy,
First of all, if you can't even conceive of the fact that anyone, virtually anyone, including people such as yourself, can say whatever they want on the internet, it means that you fail to understand what is meant by "bathroom wall". Perfect example, see a public bathroom wall and tell me some of the stuff you see written there. If you can't, well, God bless you!
By the way, since when was this a logical debate? All you did and still do is throw words left and right without actually discussing the points I have made.
In view of that, what makes you think that the points I will make about how I could progress to success, will actually change your debating status?
"Joe says: Thanks, you do a better job of making my point than I do."
That seems to be your favorite motto. Has it actually ever withstood the test of time in your case, apart from this "logical" debate we engage in?
going crown - dude, calm down. This is a debate about a business, not a gunfight at the OK corral.
You've been in business three months. You made anywhere from $7 to $16 and your monthly expenses for doing business has exceeded that each month. Therefore you lost money each month.
You also have a downline who basically "duplicated" what you did.
So,very simple questions for you:
1. What will you be changing to turn the losses into a profit?
2. How long will it take for you to make the changes?
Hi there!
Hate to bust into your party, but there's a couple of trends and loose ends I need to address here.
First, as the administrator of this forum: I apologize for having neglected this page for a while.
"Joecool18", please stop reposting your answers multiple times. I hate to see seven comments in a row, all from the same person. That's not a conversation, that's a monologue. If it takes you a while to get your response together, then write it in notepad, and wait and think a while before posting it. Lower quantity, raise quality.
Second, "Going Crown": knock off the personal abuse, and watch the language. Like most people, I don't care about your genitals or excrement; it's a sign of extremely poor business skills (not to mention psychologically telling) that you need to tell people about them in approximately every third comment.
(You'd be promptly terminated from a normal, successful business for representing it in that way, but this sort of talk and behavior is, sadly, not atypical among Quixtar "IBOs".)
You've both been warned. Thanks.
Now, to wade into the debate itself:
1. Quixtar: A lousy opportunity?
Joecool18: Quixtar is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority who sign up. Sure, a few exceptional people can succeed...
GC: Yes, this is a lousy opportunity for the vast majority of people as you plainly state and yes, it is also true that as with any opportunity, a few exceptional people...
The problem here, GC, is that you apparently fundamentally misunderstand both normal business and Quixtar. When you go to work at a normal job, you don't enter a situation where the majority lose, only a few win. A few get a CEO-like salary, but all of us show a positive profit. If we didn't, we'd stay at home.
Next, even when we talk about starting our own business, there's some chance of failure, but not nearly as high as in Quixtar -- and when you fail, you harm no-one but yourself. And when you succeed, you succeed by creating economic value -- if I make it, I'll be selling a new or better service or product to an external customer, who then gives me enough money for myself and my employees to all show a positive gain.
But, as you've admitted already, you fully expect that the vast majority of people you sign up under you will, overall, fail. And you admit you expect to profit by the very act of signing them up: unlike a real business, where the cash flows in from an external customer, down to the employees, cash in Quixtar flows up, from the low-level 'employees' (IBOs), who are inside the "organization". (That's a huge difference you should be noticing.)
Taken together, that means you are admitting you plan to be making money by inducing a lot of people to do something you know already most can't succeed at. I don't see how you can justify that as ethical.
Also, ethics entirely aside, your odds of "succeeding" in Quixtar are nearly zero. Very few make even a few thousand dollars, and their expenses are much higher. The highest-level people don't make money the same way they tell you you'll be making it. Their wealth comes from tools and seminars.
This is a bit like the guy who shows you his mansion, and tells you to buy his program to learn to make money like he does. Problem is, he tells you something different than his own secret to success. He made the cash selling "success kits" to victims, whereas they'll allegedly make the cash via no-money-down real estate, or whatever.
I hope this has clarified a number of the key problems with this alleged "opportunity". I don't wish you harm: I want to persuade you to avoid being hurt, from hurting others, and from losing money.
2. Tools
If you want to read books on success, have at it. Some people (even those who have left Quixtar, saying it wasn't good) find such things valuable and say they've changed their life, some people find them drivel.
But there's something suspicious about an organization which tries to tell you exactly what materials you should purchase, and (more suspiciously) exactly who you should purchase them from. You should be noticing, given the vast backlog of such materials available on ebay, and the price difference, and the subtle pressure to buy, that there's more going on here than meets the eye.
3. Deception
"Going Crown:" Strictly speaking, all make money, regardless. Zero is a real quantity. So, making zero money is like making zero money for it is measurable. If zero were irrelevant, why does the decimal system make use of this quantity?
Congratulations! For someone who started by complaining about the low intellectual quality of everyone else, you've now contributed what's got to be the dumbest argument I've ever seen. "Zero money" = "making money."
By your logic, negative signs are also relevant, used in the decimal system, etc. So you could also argue that going deeply into debt is also a form of "making money"!
4. Misc
However, 1.15 billion dollars is not bad and given the online i-commerce nature of the Quixtar business model, it is understoodable the potential this business model has on a global scale. So, Amway does very well and so does Quixtar.
Yes, they're making quite a lot of money. But, I hate to break it to you, but YOU are not Quixtar, nor their owner, nor one of their stockholders.
You are their customer. That money is made from you. The fact a business makes money shows nothing about how wealthy their customers are or will become. Casinos and reality shows make tons of money too, but it doesn't show their customers automatically profit from consuming lots of their product.
However, blogs like this one quickly turned me off because of the critics' infantile attitudes and failure to understand...
For a guy who supposedly read widely, it seems to me you've utterly missed the most common counter-arguments, such as the ones I point out above. You seemed to have picked the weakest counter-argument you could find, not the strongest ones. That's a very unwise approach, GC.
And as far as infantile attitudes, that's a bit rich coming from someone who is so apparently interested in describing his own excretory experiences, don't you think?
What is wrong in basing my opinion of the business on the basis of Bill Quian's book?
You should base your opinion of a business opportunity on a cold hard estimate of likely profits, and ethical considerations. No amount of throwing around new buzzwords (like "prosumer") should stop you from performing these relatively simple evaluations.
One thing which I can say contributes to the reputation problem is that people like you are responsible for creating this bad publicity.
Actually, the problem is that the business simply doesn't "work" (as defined above) regarding the average IBO. Given that, it's hardly the fault of those who are publicly exposing that fact, and trying to warn people against hurting themselves and others.
I agree with Joecool18 very much on this point.
How many fresh IBOs become diamonds? There is no written statement that says "this many people become diamonds, guaranteed!" The number depends on the people only.... [later] You see, people have a choice regardless of the numbers their represent.... Choice makes it work or not.
Only a fool would look at a million-to-one bet and say: Well, statistics don't matter here! I will just *choose* to win! You'll find those kind of thinkers blowing their money on lotteries and avidly reading "The Secret", not running successful businesses. Real businessmen and investors care very much about their likely return on their investments, and will not be tricked, by ego-stroking, into ignoring those considerations.
Sadly, many IBOs display two failings: (1) They don't understand even basic business principles, and (2) they're utterly convinced that, among any million interested people, they personally will be the smartest business operator.
Of course, they never notice that point #1 utterly disproves point #2. Will you be that rare exception, "Going Crown"?
Yet, it is evident that employee mentality is your point forte.
GC, you're using a logical fallacy. You don't evaluate an argument by the "mentality" you think is behind the one offering it.
If Quixtar is profitable for the average IBO, then it doesn't matter who points that out. And if it isn't, then it also doesn't matter who points that out. The truth is what it is.
Don't let someone trick you into not asking hard questions (particularly about whether you're going to get suckered or not) by teaching you to first evaluate the (alleged) "motives" behind each possible criticism. First find out if it's true. Then, when you've disproved it, you can start asking why it was wrong. But not until then.
Short term thinking says it's a loss but long term thinking vindicates the loss as a several orders of magnitude investment.
"Going Crown", "long term" thinking only validates that if you base it evidence, not wishful thinking. But Quixtar's own evidence says that 99.5% of Quixtar IBOs don't even make a paltry $25K a year. Before expenses.
And if you still insist you'll be that incredibly rare exception, then you're simply admitting you're willing to create a lot of failures in order to be a success.
(And, I don't mean to be cruel, but the fact you haven't noticed this previously suggests strongly you are not that rare exception.)
Thank you Tim for pointing out a few issues which need to be addressed and maybe readdressed as well.
"Tim said: When you go to work at a normal job, you don't enter a situation where the majority lose, only a few win. A few get a CEO-like salary, but all of us show a positive profit."
That is such as it appears to everyone at the first glance and to most even after that.
When you don't make that which you expect or feel that you are undervalued in the work process then, you are indeed losing and frustration settles in.
Frustration is the result of the inability to achieve a balance between productivity and that of expressing the self genius. It is all around us just waiting to be rediscovered by saying "hello". Else, it tells us "hello" without us consenting to it. How often have you felt that your job situation was an obstacle to your plans and fulfillment of one's desires? Everyone has felt it consciously by confessing it.
As to the positive profit, that interpretation is open to one's choice, irrelevant to the laws of mathematics which state that any quantity is measurable and that two quantities cancel out by requirement of balancing the equation of existence.
Therefore, zero is not the holy grail of mathematics but a quantity as important as any other in keeping existence into being. Did you know that a number times the number itself can equal to zero? Contrary to what most people have learned in their lives! It is called supersymmetry, a mathematical system based on super numbers.
Here are the laws of supersymmetry:
1) a x a = -a x a
2) a x a = 0 (when a is nullified through shuffling cancellation due to its temporal properties at a certain point in time)
3) a x b = -b x a
Therefore, so is it with this business opportunity for some won't understand it if they allow employee mindset to drive their business venture. They will fail.
Such as you have seen, using the laws of ordinary numbers mathematics break the laws of super numbers and the whole supersymmetry mathematical system collapses. The inverse is also true.
For the sake of making it even more simple, in binary, 1 + 1 = 10. Hmmm, it also looks like duplication in the decimal system but not in binary for no multiplication laws exist. Hence, so must the laws of ordinary numbers mathematics allow for duplication through multiplication which is permissible.
Any business is about duplication. Quixtar is no exception and neither are the testimonies of the presidents' companies having partnerships with Quixtar.
"Tim said: Next, even when we talk about starting our own business, there's some chance of failure, but not nearly as high as in Quixtar"
Are you a living example of the above?
"Tim said: unlike a real business, where the cash flows in from an external customer, down to the employees, cash in Quixtar flows up, from the low-level 'employees' (IBOs), who are inside the "organization"."
You confuse the employee with the business owner. As an employee, being at the bottom of the pyramid, you do get the remaining cash that flows from the top of the pyramid to the bottom of the pyramid.
As a business owner, you do get the cash based on your personal performance. We are not talking about "limited" performance but about unlimited performance for as a business owner, you seek ways to maximize yourself. As an employee, you can not maximize yourself, you make as much money as your boss thinks you are worth.
Hence, frustration settles in. If you are personally happy making 30$/h, good for you! If you think making 30$/h should make everyone happy, there is something wrong with you! The next guy sitting besides you may be very well frustrated and offended at such comment for he knows his situation and the desperate need to get out of it!
"Tim said: Taken together, that means you are admitting you plan to be making money by inducing a lot of people to do something you know already most can't succeed at. I don't see how you can justify that as ethical."
I only share the opportunity with people, I don't force them to. They have a choice to make: to succeed or to fail. It all starts with them. Therefore it is ethical to have that choice or else, coercion through deprivation would rid of ethics entirely, true?
"Tim said: Also, ethics entirely aside, your odds of "succeeding" in Quixtar are nearly zero."
If you believe you can succeed, you can. If you believe you can't succeed, you can't. Either way, you are right.
"Tim said: The highest-level people don't make money the same way they tell you you'll be making it. Their wealth comes from tools and seminars."
This aspect has already been discussed between Joecool and me. Do you give the impression that you do conduct yourself as Joecool as well?
"Tim said: This is a bit like the guy who shows you his mansion, and tells you to buy his program to learn to make money like he does. Problem is, he tells you something different than his own secret to success."
There is a distinction between success through a plan and success through struggle.
A plan to success can work if it is feasible in theory. A plan to success will not work in practice if struggle is not taken into account. For if you don't struggle, how can you accomplish that plan?
Most people run from struggle, they are lazy and thus, success can never outgrow their self image.
Success is not a secret, it's all about discipline.
"Tim said: But there's something suspicious about an organization which tries to tell you exactly what materials you should purchase"
But there's something suspicious about university which tries to tell you exactly what courses you should take to learn about any discipline. Sounds familiar? I thought you said it quite well; I only reinforce as a witness what you did say.
"Tim said: ...and the subtle pressure to buy,..."
No pressure for me at all hence, not the norm.
"Tim said: You are their customer. That money is made from you...but it doesn't show their customers automatically profit from consuming lots of their product."
Error. I am more than just a customer; I am an IBO. One can also opt to be a customer only and in that case, that person can not profit just as you said for he is a customer only. To start profiting you can opt becoming an IBO.
"Tim said: And as far as infantile attitudes, that's a bit rich coming from someone who is so apparently interested in describing his own excretory experiences, don't you think?"
I am certainly elevated in portraying the beauty which some miss if for no other reason than ignoring it.
"Tim said: You should base your opinion of a business opportunity on a cold hard estimate of likely profits, and ethical considerations."
Ethical considerations are the foundation to any venture by reason of natural orientation and essence. Estimation of profits is a guessing game in theory and more like Russian roulette in practice. Therefore, apart from ethics, estimation must be replaced by long term thinking and a daily game plan to match the thinking with the action.
"Tim said: ...you're simply admitting you're willing to create a lot of failures in order to be a success."
Yes, I am. Og Mandino said in his book "Greatest Salesman in the World" that failure is the highway to success.
He also says that "criticism kills; praise grows". Where is your praise? Where is your praise Joecool when you tell me that "if you're having trouble getting people in front of the plan, and you are new, it certainly is not going to get easier as time moves on."? This is what you critics do, you prey on people's conditions and then you find ways to tell them why can't do it, why they can't ever do it. You never tell them why they can but rather why they can't. I guess that's because you yourselves can't! You can't teach that which you do not practice. Can you teach me nuclear physics if you are not a nuclear physician, can you?
"Tim said: First find out if it's true"
Yes, do so. Check out with MBNA, Barnes & Nobles, ESSO, Universal Insurance, Shop.com just to name a few and ask them this: "Hey, I have heard that you have a partnership with Quixtar and that if I buy the same products I already use everyday through Quixtar, I can get paid and then get paid more for referring others too. Is this true or a hoax?" See what they say and then, you can make an educated decision.
"Tim said: Actually, the problem is that the business simply doesn't "work" (as defined above) regarding the average IBO. I agree with Joecool18 very much on this point."
First of all, as you said, find out if it's true.
Second, you are right when you say that this business and also any other legitimate business out there doesn't work for people with average mentality. You both agree and I agree with both of you. Question is, do you each agree with yourselves?
When you don't make that which you expect or feel that you are undervalued in the work process then, you are indeed losing and frustration settles in... How often have you felt that your job situation was an obstacle to your plans and fulfillment of one's desires?
What any product is worth in a market is determine by an agreement between buyer and seller. If you think you're not being paid enough, try another employer or start your own business. If nobody's willing to pay you what you desire, you're probably overvaluing your skills and experience. And alleged "genius". More learning always helps.
I enjoy my work, but I don't look to it for the fulfillment of all my deepest desires. I don't think material things can give that: I think we were made in a way which causes us to be unsatisfied until we are reconciled with our creator.
As to the positive profit, that interpretation is open to one's choice...
Again, successful businessmen don't think this way: No CEO of a thriving company will look at a balance sheet which is in the red and simply "choose" to see it as being in the black.
Whether one is making a profit is simply a matter of numbers and elementary math, not feelings. You're doing yourself no favors by deluding yourself like this. (Although I'm sure your QMO/AMO loves it, as they stand to make quite a lot off you if you do so.)
Did you know that a number times the number itself can equal to zero? [misc stuff about supersymmetry]
If the number is zero. (Or didn't that cross your mind?)
You'd be better off basing your profit/loss calculations on simple math. Most people have to learn to craw long before they get to "fly". As best I can see, you're not there yet.
Would you like to hear some obscure bits about propositional calculus or dirac functions? Or we could get into Laplace transforms? Want me to calculate the resulting Schwartzchild Radius of your mass as a singularity? Want blather about Brane theory?
I can do all that. And it has absolutely nothing to do with profit-loss calculations. Use the right tools for the right task. Supersymmetry is very interesting in a physics context, but it won't suddenly allow a broke loser to pay for a nice date.
I work with a PhD in physics who undoubtedly could run circles around both us together. How does he figure out if we're doing well? Using elementary math. (And we're doing quite well, thanks.)
For the sake of making it even more simple, in binary, 1 + 1 = 10. Hmmm, it also looks like duplication in the decimal system but not in binary for no multiplication laws exist.
Dude, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. There is indeed multiplication in the binary system. The existence of multiplication has absolutely nothing to do with what system to you choose to represent numbers.
Any business is about duplication. Quixtar is no exception...
Get this through your head: Businesses are about profit. You can have all the "duplication" in the world but if what you're doing isn't making money, doing a million times more will only dig you deeper.
An successful artist will make more if they produce fewer copies of certain works, not more. Similarly, a guy who finds a way to sell a million items, but isn't covering his costs, isn't successful.
... and neither are the testimonies of the presidents' companies having partnerships with Quixtar.
You clearly haven't bothered to do basic research on Quixtar.
First, calling it "partnering" is a bit strong. Amazon or Walmart isn't usually a called a "partner" with, say, Black & Decker because they resell their products. In the same way all Quixtar is doing is reselling certain brands. It doesn't imply anything magic or wonderful about Quixtar, any more than it proves K-Mart isn't going to go belly-up in a few years. (Much less that K-Mart customers are getting wealthy.)
The only "testimony" this implies is that the companies whose products are being resold think they will make money from that. It doesn't mean they think you will make money. You are just their CUSTOMERS.
But IBOs keep confusing their roles. They consume Quixtar products. That means Quixtar, and whoever products they resell with a markup, will make money. It doesn't mean YOU will make money, as you implied by saying this.
Are you a living example of the above?
I've started my own business, but no, sorry it's profitable. But I can see you're still following your programming: Facts are facts. It doesn't matter who says them. If your mom never worked a day in her life, but notices this is a pyramid scheme, it doesn't mean you should ignore that observation.
Incidentally, MOST people who start their own businesses do reasonably well: The failure rate Quixtar likes to quote is artificially high, because it counts companies who were sold (at a profit) as failures.
But I'm sure given your business acumen that you'd already caught onto that.
As an employee, being at the bottom of the pyramid, you do get the remaining cash that flows from the top of the pyramid to the bottom of the pyramid.
Once, again you're wrong. As an employee, you don't get the "remaining" cash: you get the salary you agreed to. When a company fails, the investors take a soaking, not the employees. The employees get paid even when companies are losing money.
As a business owner, you do get the cash based on your personal performance.
No, you know nothing about business. You get cash based on profit. Generally it's true that if you work more you'll probably make more, but that's not guaranteed. There are other considerations which are far more important.
As an employee, you can not maximize yourself, you make as much money as your boss thinks you are worth.
No: As a PERSON, you are free to do anything you want, and apply to ANY "boss" you'd like, to see how much they're willing to pay you. In any market, a product is worth both what seller and buyer agree too.
Look, I have a bunch of bananas. I think they're worth $100, because, hey, they're mine and that makes them sooo incredibly special.
So I go around trying to sell them for $100. Nobody buys. You know why? Because the bananas aren't worth that.
In economic terms, you're worth whatever you can bring in. If you can't bring it in, you're not worth that. Yet anyway. Keep trying. First, learn to do some math. That'd a great starting point for budding entrepreneur. (Or even employee.)
BTW: don't knock being an employee. Read The Millionaire Next Door and you'll discover a LOT of employees become millionaires. Conversely, I know a lot of people who think they're better than that. Typical profile? Dead broke and living in their parent's basement. At 30+.
Ego's a harsh mistress.
I only share the opportunity with people, I don't force them to.
I didn't ask if you forced them to. Con men don't force people into joining their cons either, but that doesn't make what they do ethical.
Therefore it is ethical to have that choice or else, coercion through deprivation would rid of ethics entirely, true?
False. Ethics consists of treating others as you'd wish to be treated in their place. Would you like me to sell you a product, and not tell you it had some huge defect I knew about? Then it's not ethical to do that to others.
It's not ethical to succeed by destroying other people or inducing them into something that you know full well will hurt most of them.
And if you can talk yourself into believing otherwise, then society, frankly, would be much better off without you.
Look, ethics usually serve to protect you. Usually, people get screwed through their ego, greed and lack of ethics. You show every sign of being a perfect mark.
If you believe you can succeed, you can.
Again, real businessmen don't think this way. They know positive focus helps, but they also know there are limits. You should too.
Do you give the impression that you do conduct yourself as Joecool as well?
I'm sorry, this sentence appears to make no grammatical sense.
There is a distinction between success through a plan and success through struggle. A plan to success can work if it is feasible in theory... Success is not a secret, it's all about discipline.
That, and making more money than you spend. So you've got to figure out, it is "feasible" that you're going to make a lot of money in a "system" where 99.5% won't make even what many starting employees make?
Oh yes, you're so special you will! Good for you! Well, go to it, Tiger!
But there's something suspicious about university which tries to tell you exactly what courses you should take to learn about any discipline. Sounds familiar?
Not even slightly. Universities admit they are in the business of selling educational materials. They don't claim their courses are sold at no profit, because they're just helping you get rich off something else, which is their real main focus.
Further, they certainly don't tell you what courses to take: as long as you have the cash, you can take any courses you feel like taking. Finally they'll usually honor comparable credits from other institutions.
Never been to college, eh?
Oh, by the way: I give you advice for you to think about it. If you think the right thing to do is to convert into a glib-sounding rebuttal (which actually makes no sense), then that's fine, but I won't waste my further time on you. I'm not here to stop you, just warn you.
If you're smarter than that, well, don't let us morons who know things like multiplication, the binary system, and simple mathematics (not to mention doing quite well in business) get in the way of a brilliant-but-so-undervalued genius like yourself.
No pressure for me at all hence, not the norm.
So you're never bought any of the tools or other services? Well, good for you! That IS abnormal. Tell me you've never bought them if so.
Error. I am more than just a customer; I am an IBO.
(*Sound of angel choruses breaking into song!*)
One can also opt to be a customer only and in that case, that person can not profit just as you said for he is a customer only. To start profiting you can opt becoming an IBO.
Dude, you were implying Quixtar being profitable meant YOU were being profitable. No. Regarding that transaction, you ARE just a customer. If you're going to quote those numbers as proof of success, it only means IBOs paid them money. It doesn't imply that their IBOs aren't going broke.
If you want figure what being an "IBO" is worth, that equation tells you NOTHING.
Instead, you have to look at your likely profit and loss, not theirs. (Which I've already pointed you to the dismal stats about.)
Ethical considerations are the foundation to any venture by reason of natural orientation and essence.
Yes, but you forget: natural orientation and essence is itself inherently subjugated to an existential evaluation of prospective entities, and subjunctive and eminent trajectories with regard to moral and transcendent analyses.
(Or so my babysitter used to say.)
Estimation of profits is a guessing game in theory and more like Russian roulette in practice.
Long ago, wise men developed a science for dealing with this ambiguity. It's called probability. You can use it to guess that a 2-in-3 chance MIGHT be a good business risk, but a 1-in-1000 chance MIGHT not.
But you'd prefer to live an a more primitive intellectual time, when we were encumbered by such knowledge.
Og Mandino said in his book "Greatest Salesman in the World" that failure is the highway to success.
He meant trying and failing in an ethical manner. He didn't mean screwing other people in order for you to make some cash off their pain.
He also says that "criticism kills; praise grows". Where is your praise?
"I have not come to praise Caesar, but to bury him."
You already have a quite high opinion of yourself. The last thing you need is another enemy of yours who pretends to be your friend by stroking your already-bloated ego some more. I'd much rather pretend to be your enemy, in your eyes, by telling you hard and unpleasant truths which would help you if you weren't afraid to consider them.
It's a false love to cheer someone on as they drive off a bridge, with others in their backseat.
Check out with MBNA, Barnes & Nobles, ESSO, Universal Insurance, Shop.com just to name a few and ask them this: "Hey, I have heard that you have a partnership with Quixtar and that if I buy the same products I already use everyday through Quixtar, I can get paid and then get paid more for referring others too. Is this true or a hoax?" See what they say and then, you can make an educated decision.
It's true. And you don't realize that it means THEY will make money. The question for you is whether YOU will make money.
Again, you still seem to be thinking you also, are their partner. No, you're their consumer. You have to look at a completely different transaction to figure out if you'll make money as an "IBO."
First of all, as you said, find out if it's true.
I've already addressed your point. In contrast, you're simply avoiding answering mine, much less seriously thinking about them. Not wise.
Second, you are right when you say that this business and also any other legitimate business out there doesn't work for people with average mentality.
No, I simply said it doesn't work for the average IBO. It doesn't even "work" for 99.99+% percent of them, no matter what mentality. My point was about ethics, not about how stunningly brilliant and exceptional you are.
And it's not about mentality, GC, it's about your place in the pyramid.
The first several people who send a chain letter are likely to make a lot of money. Their "mentality" is irrelevant: what matters is that (a) they got in very early, and (b) they were capable of photocopying a list and scratching a name off.
In contrast, the people later on are highly likely to take a loss. Again, for them effort or "mentality" might make a tiny bit of difference (you might a few bites versus none), but if you're among the last suckers in, you're pretty much toast. Regardless of whatever amazing and incredibly exceptional "mentality" you're sure you have.
The Quixtar "system", with its upline payment structure, works in precisely this fashion. In Quixtar (as Joecool18 pointed out) the "Diamonds" got in long ago and essentially closed the door. New people are just canon fodder to keep them fed.
This is a matter of system organization and math, not a matter of "mentality". But they tell you that to distract you from noticing it.
As I said, you're behaving as an excellent mark.
You're pretty sure your enemy is the one in front of you, who refuses to validate your ego, but that your "friends" are the people who have fed you the incorrect assumptions you've just spewed.
As I've said: Go to it! Don't let me drag you down in this spectacularly amazing "opportunity" you've earned, what $7 from? (Before expenses.) You frankly need a good failure, from what I can see.
Welcome!
First, to begin with, what is this "GC"?
Several points I would like to add.
As a critic, I am only voicing my opinion based on my experiences and observations. I have nothing to gain by informing prospective IBOs of what I believe to the the truth about the AQMOs.
As an IBO, you would have something to gain by deceeiving your prospects because you are hopeful that they will sign up and consume products and plug into the system.
Comparing college to quixtar is a poor comparison. In college, you get what you pay for - an education. Colleges do not advertise that you will be a millionaire when you graduate. It is also documented that college grads make more than non college grads.
Partner stores? Are they truly partners? These stores only compensate you very little for moving their products. They don't sell quixtar products, how is it a partnership? Did you know that Enron and MCI Worldcom were quixtar partners at one time?
Last, if you are a tenured diamond who is making money off tools, do you really believe that tehse diamonds want new diamonds getting a "fair share" of those profits? Do you know why diamonds are often "breaking away" to start their own groups? You got it, because they don't want to share that tool money.
"Joe says: As a critic, I am only voicing my opinion based on my experiences and observations."
As a matter of fact, after having observed you both, here and on your own blog, I tend to believe otherwise. A quick tunning to the substance of your reasonings enforces that belief beyond reasonable doubt.
"Joe says: As an IBO, you would have something to gain by deceeiving your prospects because you are hopeful that they will sign up and consume products and plug into the system."
Deceiving your prospects... I did not know that this business is about deceiving! I did not know that reputable companies affiliate themselves with such an evil scheme! Wow buddy, you really are coming strong and stronger! Makes me wonder if someone ever told you to take a walk in your face!
"Joe says: Colleges do not advertise that you will be a millionaire when you graduate."
Neither does this business opportunity advertise the above! Hasn't this occurred to you yet? This is an opportunity, not a guarantee of any sorts! You have to work to make it work if you want to become a millionaire just as you would have to work to make money in other ventures as well! Heeeyyy!!!
"Joe says: It is also documented that college grads make more than non college grads."
It is also documented that people such as Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Kirk Kerkorian, Lawrence Ellison, Sheldon Adelson and many others with education levels ranging from university drop outs to grade 8 education have become billionaires. Why? Because they were dreamers, they had vision and were willing to walk the talk regardless of what negative people around them were saying!
"Joe says: They don't sell quixtar products, how is it a partnership?"
They use Quixtar through the partnership they have together, as an online mall where IBOs market THEIR products and services and then move them! No, they don't sell Quixtar exclusive products! Quixtar exclusive products are pertinent to Quixtar itself not to those companies!
"Joe says: Did you know that Enron and MCI Worldcom were quixtar partners at one time?"
Yes, and... ?
Going crown, I think you do not see the difference between quixtar and the motivational groups such as BWW or WWDB. Quixtar in itself is just an entity that produces products and inefficiently moves products to customers by emoploying independent sales people, or IBOs.
The motivational groups are the entities that entice prospects by promoting the ability to achieve lifelong dreams and "residual" income by participating in their proven and foolproof "system".
Despite what you believe or claim, the vast majority of people who register in quixtar lose money or make nothing. Even if you disregard the IBOs who sign up an "do nothing", the vast majority never earn any significant income. IBOs in the system almost guarantee themselves a loss, which currently includes yourself.
I have never claimed that nobody can succeed in quixtar. Obviously, some IBOs overcome the overwhelming odds and make it to diamond and highers, but these are few and far between like your Bill Gates example.
Based on your logic, we should encourage kids to drop out of college because Bill Gates did so and is a billionaire. Twisted logic indeed.
See, the real issue is that too many IBOs focus on what is "possible" and not what is realistic or what is likely. Any serious business owner should want to know what the likelihood of success will be. If not, why not start your own software company and try to overtake microsoft. Afterall, it's "possible" right?
"Joecool says: Going crown, I think you do not see the difference between quixtar and the motivational groups such as BWW or WWDB."
In your own words, what is this difference that you promote?
I do know that the Quixtar and the motivational groups are two separate entities and hence, different.
My question to you is: in your own words, what is this difference that you promote?
"Joecool says: Quixtar in itself is just an entity that produces products and inefficiently moves products to customers"
So Quixtar ONLY produces products, right? I also knew that some companies have a partnership with Quixtar and use Quixtar as an online commerce portal to move their products and services...
Wow buddy, you really DO understand the nature of this business, see!
Besides, if these products are so inefficiently moved to customers as you state, how come you did not step in to make it more efficient?
"Joecool says: The motivational groups are the entities that entice prospects by promoting the ability to achieve lifelong dreams and "residual" income by participating in their proven and foolproof "system"."
If you could not step in to improve the product delivery mechanism to customers, much less understand the nature of this business, I don't expect you to step in to improve the agenda and inner workings of the motivational training system either!
"Joecool says: Even if you disregard the IBOs who sign up an "do nothing", the vast majority never earn any significant income."
Those who do not earn any significant income are the ones who do the minimum and expect the maximum. I wish that would work but as you point out, it does not for we both agree on this point.
Doing minimum, brings forth minimalistic results hence, we can pretty much agree that doing the minimum is very much like doing nothing. Minimum can also mean zero, you see? Then, doing nothing is one step below the vast majority.
On the other hand, the majority can not exist without the minority. My mentor is in the minority for he is retired at 41 since 2004. He spends quality time home with his wife and three little kids.
As an important lesson for you to learn, difference starts with the minority and not the majority. You belong to the majority; you do not spend quality time with your family and kids because you are away every day to chase after the dollar bill.
Most people are in the same position. A survey done in Canada about a few months ago stated that a Canadian father spends less than 15 minutes of quality time per week with his kids. Wow! So, working a job is not exactly rewarding anymore in the 21st century! It's never been but now is even less. If you want to have control in life over your time and your money, start doing something else instead of working for someone until you die and having that someone control your life. No wonder the Canadian father spends less than 15 minutes of quality time per week with his family! Besides, many more people are in the same situation. But here is the thing, some look for a way out and some are just wishful thinkers and ardent complainers.
You were given the same opportunity and you chose to be that ardent complainer as you clearly make it known.
My mentor chose the other path. Family integrity and quality time is his first priority and frankly, should be for everyone who genuinely cares about their families. He has a strong, growing business and he is teaching me so that I can also stay at home with my future wife and kids and spend quality time together. This excites me and knowing that I can help others, excites me all the more.
Why can't you be excited to live such a life? Why do you have to spread all this negativity and make people feel even more miserable than they already are?
"Joecool sayd: I have never claimed that nobody can succeed in quixtar. Obviously, some IBOs overcome the overwhelming odds"
By now you have made it clear that you did not do any of the above.
"Joecool says: See, the real issue is that too many IBOs focus on what is "possible""
If you don't then, most likely nothing is possible and what could be is not made to the full extent. This is what separates a man who is confident in his belief to find that which he is looking for from a man who is boastful in his rigid views to always say "get real!" and why not "be like me, be like the majority!".
"Joecool says: Twisted logic indeed"
Twisted for the boastful man, straight for the modest man.
Going crown said: Besides, if these products are so inefficiently moved to customers as you state, how come you did not step in to make it more efficient?
Joe says: Quixtar has no motivation to make changes since most IBOs are trained to purchase their 100 points and not challenge the system.
Going crown said: Those who do not earn any significant income are the ones who do the minimum and expect the maximum. I wish that would work but as you point out, it does not for we both agree on this point.
Joe says: Not true, many IBOs put forth tremendous effort and end up not making any money or even taking losses due to the tools.
Since you are not profitable, are you lazy - just doing the minimum?
Going crown said: On the other hand, the majority can not exist without the minority.
Joe says: Signs of a pyramid scheme. In a McDonald's franchise for example, the vast majority make a nice income, not true with quixtar IBOs.
Going crown said: Why can't you be excited to live such a life? Why do you have to spread all this negativity and make people feel even more miserable than they already are?
Joe says: It is more helpful for people to know the truth than to be filled with false hopes. The truth is that the vast majority of IBOs will make nothing or lose money. Do you feel good about enticing someone inot the business and then calling them quitters or broke losers after the "system" does not deliver what is promoted.
Going crown said: My mentor is in the minority for he is retired at 41 since 2004. He spends quality time home with his wife and three little kids.
Joe says: Of course I understand that "some" people succeed in quixtar, but their success is paid for by their downline's losses, including yourself at this moment.
"Joecool says: Quixtar has no motivation to make changes since most IBOs are trained to purchase their 100 points and not challenge the system."
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT QUIXTAR, I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU! It starts with you! You seem to be more than willing to talk about Quixtar's lack of motivation instead of your own. That, combined with your complacent attitude and wasting time howling "it doesn't work!" exposes your lack of motivation first hand!
You like to talk about challenge so, why not positive, inspiring challenges? Instead, you talk about negative, boring challenges such as the classic one "don't focus on why it does work, you must first focus on why it doesn't work, find what's wrong!" That is the wrong approach.
Don't you think that the system has been challenged enough already? The system has been created by people who look into how to make it better to serve others and not to fight it on grounds of "what's always wrong with it".
People who do understand and work the system always follow the system because it does work. They are wise to understand that the nature and the mechanics of the system have been taken care of and therefore, feel confident in following it and not fighting it. If you fight it, you will not make it! If you have suggestions to improve it, state them otherwise, shut up! It seems that you don't have such suggestions but funny complaints.
"Joecool says: Not true, many IBOs put forth tremendous effort and end up not making any money or even taking losses due to the tools."
What each and everyone does is a matter of case by case outcome. Since you are not dictating the outcome of third party cases except your own personal case, you are not entitled to comment on such cases on grounds of projected truth by taking your own opinions and projecting them as such. Furthermore, you are entitled to provide your own opinions for as long as they do not become libel by reason of willful intent to inflict damage on unreasonable, unlawful grounds.
"Going crown said: On the other hand, the majority can not exist without the minority.
Joe says: Signs of a pyramid scheme."
Neither can the minority exist without the majority just as black can not exist without white and now you are entitled to make the above statement otherwise, shhhh, you may look outright stupid akin to not playing stupid after all! You are a living proof of the pyramid scheme; you belong to the majority whereas your boss belongs to the minority. That's just how things are! If you were in the minority, how come you don't share its taste with us all?
"Joecool says: In a McDonald's franchise for example, the vast majority make a nice income, not true with quixtar IBOs. The truth is that the vast majority of IBOs will make nothing or lose money."
What each and everyone does is a matter of case by case outcome. You are responsible only for your own case.
"Joecool says: Of course I understand that "some" people succeed in quixtar,"
"Some" or some?
Going Crown said: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT QUIXTAR, I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU! It starts with you! You seem to be more than willing to talk about Quixtar's lack of motivation instead of your own. That, combined with your complacent attitude and wasting time howling "it doesn't work!" exposes your lack of motivation first hand!
Joe says: When I was an IBO, I went 4000 PV in about 7-8 months. I did what I was "advised". I also discovered that at the 4000 level, I wasn't making a profit and my upline's explanation of "the facts don't matter when you have a big dream" didn't fly anymore. By the way, I believe having achieved the 4000 level, it makes me more knowledgeable about the business than you, based on diamond logic.
Our upline expected us to "submit" to him. We were to attend every meeting no matter what. Purchase standing order and 5-7 additional tapes each week. Purchase extra function tickets just in case you sponsor someone new. Skip mortgage payments to attend a function. If your business wasn't growing, you weren't buying enough tapes and function tickets. I saw crossline go bankrupt, two couples lost their homes because of their dedication to "do whatever it takes".
This is the business you promote as a good thing?
Going Crown said: Don't you think that the system has been challenged enough already? The system has been created by people who look into how to make it better to serve others and not to fight it on grounds of "what's always wrong with it".
Joe says: THen why is there so few pins breaking. Quixtar has 3-5 new diamonds since 1999? I'm not talking about people who registered into Amway and converted. I'm talking about people who registered into quixtar. 1999 was 8 years ago. You promote a 2-5 year plan. Where's the "fruit on the tree"?
Going Crown said: Neither can the minority exist without the majority just as black can not exist without white and now you are entitled to make the above statement otherwise, shhhh, you may look outright stupid akin to not playing stupid after all! You are a living proof of the pyramid scheme; you belong to the majority whereas your boss belongs to the minority. That's just how things are! If you were in the minority, how come you don't share its taste with us all?
Joe says: Quixtar is a (legal) pyramid scheme. The small minority make their money off tools and the purchases of their downline. The majority cannot win. In REAL frachises, most if not all the owners can win/succeed because the money comes into the system from customers. In quixtar, customers are rare, the majority of sales are to the IBOs themselves. That's the difference but you can't seem to grasp that simple concept.
Going Crown said: What each and everyone does is a matter of case by case outcome. You are responsible only for your own case.
Joe says: This is about your 4th month in busienss and you are losing money. So are you lazy and not doing what you are taught?
"Joecool says: Joe says: When I was an IBO, I went 4000 PV in about 7-8 months. I did what I was "advised". I also discovered that at the 4000 level, I wasn't making a profit"
How you did what you were advised to do applies only to you. How the guy sitting besides you did what he was advised to do applies only to him. No tow people are identical hence, the outcome. Remember what I said, what each and everyone does is a matter of case by case outcome; you are responsible only for your own case.
"Joecool says: By the way, I believe having achieved the 4000 level, it makes me more knowledgeable about the business than you, based on diamond logic."
Not necessarily so. First, you quit and then you talk as if what applies to you must apply to everyone else. That is simply false. Second, you imply that you are more knowledgeable about the business based on diamond level logic than me.
One thing, there is no such thing as "diamond logic". Logic is just the decision making concept of manifestation, diamond is the level a person reaches in the business. The two are independent. Besides, if the above was true, how come you did quit given that your decision was taken on grounds of "diamond logic"? A diamond thus, must be successful based on the merits of his tribulation in order to earn it and live by it.
"Joecool says: Our upline expected us to "submit" to him."
Submission in learning, not submission in slavery.
"Joecool says: We were to attend every meeting no matter what. Purchase standing order and 5-7 additional tapes each week. Purchase extra function tickets just in case you sponsor someone new. Skip mortgage payments to attend a function."
In view of what you said, were you or are you able to prioritize your schedule? If yes, you would find ways to overcome your life challenges otherwise, you would complain about them in absence of action through what you just said.
"Joecool says: If your business wasn't growing, you weren't buying enough tapes and function tickets."
If your business wasn't growing it's not because you weren't buying enough tapes and function tickets. Buying enough tapes and function tickets does not automatically grow your business. It's what you LEARN and APPLY from them that makes the difference. Is that English level legible and comprehensive to you? I need readers vote here.
"Joecool says: Joe says: THen why is there so few pins breaking. Quixtar has 3-5 new diamonds since 1999? 1999 was 8 years ago. You promote a 2-5 year plan. Where's the "fruit on the tree"?"
It all matters based on how and where you get your information from. Simply because you are no longer in business means that you are not well grounded into the buzz and the facts surrounding the business development. That should make sense.
Second to that, some diamonds and people at other levels may choose not to make themselves public figures for personal reasons. Therefore, you can not know them and that frustrates you. Therefore you see no growth and you believe that to be true. In the Bible, it says that "blessed are those who believe yet haven't seen". Therefore where is your belief in growth? You have enough credible information to build and develop that belief further.
Instead you opt otherwise. You take information from questionable sources, expand on it and then fabricate some more to avenge your frustration. You should walk the path of love to alleviate that frustration and reconcile with yourself to start fresh unless you will be decimated down the road by reason of your personal frustration and insult to the injury as a form of rebuttal for your evil ways.
"Joecool says: Quixtar is a (legal) pyramid scheme. The small minority make their money off tools and the purchases of their downline."
You do not understand the nature of the business. Since you don't, how can you elaborate on a concept alien to your understanding?
Putting this business aside, let's talk more business yet again by focusing on another business model: Pizza Pizza.
Great franchise, awesome pizza! Yet not free, a buck a fee! Slices run, it's so much fun! People see, it's spending spree!
Morale of the lesson? Pizza Pizza makes money off the purchases of their customer downline! Give me another business example please.
"Joecool says: In quixtar, customers are rare, the majority of sales are to the IBOs themselves. That's the difference but you can't seem to grasp that simple concept."
Au contraire, the concept is mutual based on cash flow.
Both IBOs and customers have access to products and services by generating an external cash flow in exchange of their use.
Only IBOs generate internal cash flow in their pockets as a result of both, being in business for themselves and creating more market and profit for the companies whose products and services they use as customers.
Customers who are not IBOs only create more market and profit for the companies whose products and services they use and therefore do not generate internal cash flow into their pockets.
Hence, an IBO already being a customer nullifies the argument that he is not. That's the difference between a customer only and an IBO. Simple difference, simple understanding!
"Joecool says: Joe says: This is about your 4th month in busienss and you are losing money. So are you lazy and not doing what you are taught?"
No, I am investing long-term! As to being lazy, I do admit that I still am and still need to work on myself so to overcome it.
Going Crown said: Not necessarily so. First, you quit and then you talk as if what applies to you must apply to everyone else. That is simply false. Second, you imply that you are more knowledgeable about the business based on diamond level logic than me.
One thing, there is no such thing as "diamond logic". Logic is just the decision making concept of manifestation, diamond is the level a person reaches in the business. The two are independent. Besides, if the above was true, how come you did quit given that your decision was taken on grounds of "diamond logic"? A diamond thus, must be successful based on the merits of his tribulation in order to earn it and live by it.
Joe says: I didn't quit because I couldn't make the business work. I quit because the business did not deliver what was advertised. At the 4000 level I was not making money. I'm still waiting for you to show an example of why you actually think the business works, especially when you are still losing money yourself.
Going Crown said: Submission in learning, not submission in slavery.
Joe says: Really? My upline wanted downline to consult him on things such as having children, buying a car, buying a camera, moving to a new place, , etc. Sounds pretty controlling and has nothing to do with the business.
Going Crown said: If your business wasn't growing it's not because you weren't buying enough tapes and function tickets. Buying enough tapes and function tickets does not automatically grow your business. It's what you LEARN and APPLY from them that makes the difference. Is that English level legible and comprehensive to you? I need readers vote here.
Joe says: Apparently I applied what I learned quite well. I went from zero to 4000 PV in 7-8 months as compared to the 200 PV your business is moving now.
Going Crown said: Second to that, some diamonds and people at other levels may choose not to make themselves public figures for personal reasons. Therefore, you can not know them and that frustrates you. Therefore you see no growth and you believe that to be true. In the Bible, it says that "blessed are those who believe yet haven't seen". Therefore where is your belief in growth? You have enough credible information to build and develop that belief further.
Instead you opt otherwise. You take information from questionable sources, expand on it and then fabricate some more to avenge your frustration. You should walk the path of love to alleviate that frustration and reconcile with yourself to start fresh unless you will be decimated down the road by reason of your personal frustration and insult to the injury as a form of rebuttal for your evil ways.
Joe says: Are you kidding, if there were thoussands of new diamonds breaking in quixtar, it would be well known public knowledge. The company doesn't publish those numbers because they are dismal. Instead they give you subtle hints such as 340,000 active IBOs, and .0076
of them are diamond, or little hints that you can extrapolate the numbers from.
Did your upline teach you to have faith in what you cannot see? This is noe religion 101, this is business. In business, you have bonafide numbers to assess your business. My 4000 business with recommended parameters lost money. I also came to the conclusion that the added expenses of a platinum would have made me unprofitable at that level as well, thus aiding my wise business decision to quit.
Going crown said: You do not understand the nature of the business. Since you don't, how can you elaborate on a concept alien to your understanding?
Joe says: I understand the business quite well. Diamonds make some money from quixtar but they make the majority of their income from seminars and tapes. DO you really think a diamond can hold his business together if he is flying around the country speaking at functions?
Do you know how much money these guys make from major functions that have 25,000 people in attendance?
Going Crown said: Au contraire, the concept is mutual based on cash flow.
Joe says: Yes, the money flows from your pockets into quixtar's coffers for product purchases and then when you buy tapes and seminars, the money flows from your pockets into your upline diamond's pockets.
Going Crown said: No, I am investing long-term! As to being lazy, I do admit that I still am and still need to work on myself so to overcome it.
Joe says: Investing in what? If I invest in Microsoft and decide later that I want to invest in something else, I sell my stock in Microsoft and buy something else. What would you be able to sell your business for? Your business has negative equity.
And Tim has brought this up before, but I will mention it again since you seem not to understand. Just because Quixtar gives "rebates" as bonuses, doesn't mean they are being generous. They are just taking a lot of your money then redistributing it back to you. with your upline taking a larger cut for your efforts than yourself. And as for partner stores, you are simply a customer, not a stakeholder in the profits. I read somewhere that you get back a buck or two for every hundred dollars you spend at a "partner" store.
Ironically, I get the same return using my cash back credit card. Difference is I get a true rebate. Your "rebate" is taxable income.
You are now into the business for 4 months. That is a significant amount of time out of a 2-5 year plan. What is your honest assessment of your efforts thus far?
"Joecool said: Joe says: I understand the business quite well. And Tim has brought this up before, but I will mention it again since you seem not to understand."
Cicero said: "No one can speak well, unless he thoroughly understands his subject."
Going Crown, let's look at facts:
Fact: The vast majority of IBOs who register with quixtar lose money or make nothing.
Fact: You and your downline are losing money.
Fact: Your upline diamonds make money from your tool purchases.
Fact: Your "system" does not produce what it promotes - look at the above facts.
Fact: The quixtar compensation plan requires there to be more IBOs making nothing so a few can prosper.
Are you going to base some of your arguments of facts or have you been taught that the facts don't matter if your dream is big enough?
"Joecool said: Are you going to base some of your arguments of facts"
Yes I am.
Fact: I have sponsored my second leg this week.
Fact: I speak, do and believe the more.
Fact: I understand that victory comes with struggle and by struggle one overcomes.
Fact: If the dream is big enough facts don't count because facts will eventually change to reflect the new reality.
Fact: I am going crown and by equal faith and works will this fact be reflected once fulfilled.
Going Crown says: Fact: I have sponsored my second leg this week.
Joe says: Great, now you have two downline that will duplicate what you have done, which is a net loss. The only way you can win is to sponsor enough downline to absorb your losses. If your "group" does 100 PV each, you will get a check for about $36. Each of your downline will get about $8 and you will get a whopping $20, which is still a net loss - because of the tools.
Going Crown says: Fact: I speak, do and believe the more.
Joe says: This is an opinion, not a fact.
Going Crown said: Fact: I understand that victory comes with struggle and by struggle one overcomes.
Joe says: Oh, you will struggle all right.
Going Crown said: Fact: If the dream is big enough facts don't count because facts will eventually change to reflect the new reality.
Joe says: Real business owners don't ignore facts, they analyze them and use them to improve their businesses. Only in this dreamland of quixtar do business owners ignore facts.
Going Crown said: Fact: I am going crown and by equal faith and works will this fact be reflected once fulfilled.
Joe says: If only I had a dollar for every time I have heard that, I would be a multi millionaire. :P
I would like to now share a truth with you and the readers.
Here is what a wise person said:
THE WINNER is always a part of the answer.
THE LOSER is always part of the problem.
THE WINNER always has a program.
THE LOSER always has an excuse.
THE WINNER sees an answer for every problem.
THE LOSER sees a problem in every answer.
THE WINNER sees a green near every sand trap.
THE LOSER sees two or three sand traps near every green.
THE WINNER says "It may be difficult but it's possible."
THE LOSER says "It may be possible but it's too difficult."
THE WINNER says "Dreams through works build bridges into the future"
THE LOSER says "Works alone make the present because only fools dream of the future"
Going Crown said: THE WINNER is always a part of the answer. THE LOSER is always part of the problem.
Joe says: Whch one are you?
Going Crown said: THE WINNER always has a program. THE LOSER always has an excuse.
Joe says: I have my own program. Why aren't you making money in quixtar yet?
Going Crown said: THE WINNER sees an answer for every problem. THE LOSER sees a problem in every answer.
Joe says: The answer is to avoid quixtar. Do you have a problem with that?
Going Crown said: THE WINNER sees a green near every sand trap. THE LOSER sees two or three sand traps near every green.
Joe says: Quixtar is like golfing?
Going Crown said: THE WINNER says "It may be difficult but it's possible." THE LOSER says "It may be possible but it's too difficult."
Joe says: Winning the lottery is difficult, but it's possible. Building a software Giant like Microsoft is very difficult, but it's possible.
Going Crown said: THE WINNER says "Dreams through works build bridges into the future"
THE LOSER says "Works alone make the present because only fools dream of the future"
Joe says: A dream withou a means to achieve it is just a "wish".
So are you going to present any evidence of qhy quixtar is a good opportunity or are you going to continue to spin and deflect the real issues.
1. The vast majority of IBOs make nothing or lose money. (Including you)
2. The vast majority of prospects would be better off working for minimum wage instead of working the quixtar business.
3. Quixtar prices are too high, rendering the business inefficient as a means to achieve financial goals.
4. Quixtar is not a way to achieve wealth. As the group grows, the losses mount for the group as a whole so a few select IBOs can profit.
5. Quixtar having "name recognition" partners does nothing to increase IBO profitability.
6. Tools drain resources from IBOs and do not assist the vast majority of IBOs to become profitable.
You know something, I find it rather interesting that:
1) I post 6 arguments about both winners & losers and that you reply back with 6 arguments about losers. You state very well why you are a part of that collective:
A)Most people end up broke in this business (Some do but it's always by choice just as some end up making more than they started with. You were making money based on your own efforts but then you QUIT and besides, you convinced your group to QUIT with you as well. I guess it's because you have a fundamental problem about your self image and you were not willing to overcome it!)
B)Most are better off working for minimum wage (Mediocre mentality = mediocre accomplishments and you have part of both in abundance. Long term thinking is foreign to you, potential is a joke, achievements are luck, etc. No wonder you think that people are better off working for minimum wage. As a result, I guess that you would be rather happy to be in the same position as well. If not how come you make such suggestions?)
C)Quixtar prices are too high (Well, if they are, I guess that Quixtar is not the only business affected by too high prices, right? And yet, you don't research and complain about the pricing of other businesses, do you? How come so?)
D)As the group grows so do losses so that few profit (What can I say! A legal business which agenda is to create and promote losses so that few get rich off of that sounds more like an illegal business and yet that legal business has been around for many years and has received approval and praise from both, the FTC and the BBB.)
E)Name recognition partners means nothing (I guess it does not mean anything to you and there is no need to provide further proof if you feel you made your point)
F)Tools drain resources and are useless (I guess your university education also drained your pockets and was pretty much useless as well)
2) How did you come up with that number, $ 36? I sense something about it. Can you share please?
Going Crown said: A)Most people end up broke in this business (Some do but it's always by choice just as some end up making more than they started with. You were making money based on your own efforts but then you QUIT and besides, you convinced your group to QUIT with you as well. I guess it's because you have a fundamental problem about your self image and you were not willing to overcome it!)
Joe says: That's the flaw in your argument. Anything outside your personal circle is NOT your own efforts. Your volume and ability to generate ongoing volume is based on the efforts of your downline. With more than 50% of IBOs quitting each year, it's like bailing water out of a sinking ship. You took 4 months to sponsor two people. More than likely, one or both of your downline will quit by next year. What will your "business" look like then?
Going Crown said: B)Most are better off working for minimum wage (Mediocre mentality = mediocre accomplishments and you have part of both in abundance. Long term thinking is foreign to you, potential is a joke, achievements are luck, etc. No wonder you think that people are better off working for minimum wage. As a result, I guess that you would be rather happy to be in the same position as well. If not how come you make such suggestions?)
Joe says: Why do so many IBOs insist that just because people choose other means of making a living other than quixtar, that they are of mediocre mentality. With quixtar paying their average IBO $115 a month (before expenses for tapes and seminars), I'd have to say that people who register for quixtar have a mediocre or below mediocre mentality.
Going Crown said: C)Quixtar prices are too high (Well, if they are, I guess that Quixtar is not the only business affected by too high prices, right? And yet, you don't research and complain about the pricing of other businesses, do you? How come so?)
Joe says: Because in the real market, the public dictates a business's ability to survive. There are about 4 Quixtar IBOs sharing one (1) customer, or about .23 customers per IBO. The vast majority of IBOs consume their own volume. IBOs do so because they think quixtar will lead them to early retirement. When that dream is not realized, they go back to Walmart and save with the overall lower prices.
Going Crown said: D)As the group grows so do losses so that few profit (What can I say! A legal business which agenda is to create and promote losses so that few get rich off of that sounds more like an illegal business and yet that legal business has been around for many years and has received approval and praise from both, the FTC and the BBB.)
Joe says: Do you have a link that shows Quixtar receiving praise from these agencies? Quixtar has never been reviewed by the FTC. Amway was found "legal" by the FTC in 1979, but was also fined by the FTC for making outrageous income claims in the 1980's. The BBB only tracks quixtar's handling of complaints, in which quixtar is satsifactory. In any case, quixtar has never received praise from these agencies. Making up deceptive claims doesn't strengthen your case.
Going Crown said: E)Name recognition partners means nothing (I guess it does not mean anything to you and there is no need to provide further proof if you feel you made your point)
Joe says: Just because Target is a quixtar "partner", doesn't mean your "Independent" business is going to make any money.
Going Crown said: F)Tools drain resources and are useless (I guess your university education also drained your pockets and was pretty much useless as well)
Joe says: My college didn't claim that I wold be rich walking the beaches of the world with a degree. I paid for and received an education, which has helped me land a higher paying job than most who didn;t attend college. Also, I paid for college for 4 years, not forever.
Going Crown said: 2) How did you come up with that number, $ 36? I sense something about it. Can you share please?
Joe says: You + 2 downline = 300 PV. 300 PV = about 600 to 700 BV. That would give you a bonus in the neighborhood of $36, maybe a bit more or less. Of course your downline would be entitled to part of that bonus.
"Joecool says: That's the flaw in your argument. Anything outside your personal circle is NOT your own efforts. Your volume and ability to generate ongoing volume is based on the efforts of your downline."
I guess that it also true about franchises as well! Quixtar is a business opportunity model that combines direct marketing with franchising.
Speaking of franchises:
1)The franchisor develops a business system
2)The franchisor develops an educational system
3)The franchisor opens up his first franchise
4)The franchisor's franchise makes a profit
5)The franchisor wants to duplicate the profit
6)The franchisor advertizes his franchising business looking for people who seek to run a franchise and make residual income
7)The franchisor introduces the selected candidates to the training program as part of the educational system in order for the candidates to learn the business model and to successfully duplicate it.
8)The franchisor institutes the candidates who passed the training program as franchisees of his franchise (call them his "downline")
9)The franchisor opens up new stores and instates his franchisees
10)The franchisees create volume and generate residual income
11)The franchisor as the owner of his franchise is entitled to a percentage of either or both, the sales or the profit off of each of his franchisees.
Definition of a franchise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchising
"French for honesty or freedom[1]) is a method of doing business wherein a "franchisor" licenses proven methods of doing business to a "franchisee" in exchange for a recurring payment, fees and a percentage of sales or profits. Various tangibles and intangibles such as national or international advertising, training, and other support services are commonly made available by the franchisor, and may indeed be required by the franchisor, which generally requires audited books, and may subject the franchisee or the outlet to periodic and surprise spot checks. Failure of such tests typically involve non-renewal or cancellation of franchise rights."
So, in your view, I guess that franchising is unethical and should be outlawed as both, a scam and a cult just like Quixtar!
"Joecool says: Do you have a link that shows Quixtar receiving praise from these agencies?"
Sure!
http://westernmichigan.bbb.org/WWWRoot/Report.aspx?site=53&bbb=0372&firm=11002927
From that page one sees that:
1)BBB Accreditation Status
This company has been a BBB Accredited business since November 1999. This means it supports the BBB's services to the public and meets our BBB Accreditation standards.
2)Nature Of Business
Quixtar Inc. offers consumers a business ownership opportunity supported by quality branded products, a competitive compensation plan, infrastructure support, and a community of other entrepreneurs.
Quixtar Independent Business Owners (IBOs) refer their customers to www.quixtar.com for products and services and earn income based on sales resulting from their referrals and on sales made by other IBOs they have registered. Each IBO's individual success depends upon his or her own efforts and the selling efforts of those whom they register.
3)Customer Experience
Based on BBB files, this company has a satisfactory record. The company does not have an unusual volume of complaints, or any government actions involving its marketplace conduct. The BBB understands and has no concerns about the company's products, services and type of business.
From http://www.quixtarfacts.com/us-en/Opportunity/plan.html
"Quixtar's Independent Business Owner Compensation Plan is based on a proven plan that has been used legally and successfully for the past 40 years. In fact, an FTC judge, supported by the entire Federal Trade Commission, deemed that the plan now used by Quixtar is legal. The Quixtar business opportunity stands apart from such schemes as a model of integrity."
IT IS EXPLAINED IN CLEAR, CONCISE GRADE 8 ENGLISH LEVEL AND I DON'T SEE ANY VALID JUSTIFICATION IN YOUR LAMENTATIONS. NOW, I BELIEVE ALL THE MORE THAT THIS IS AN AWESOME BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY. PROBLEM IS, YOU DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND FRANCHISING AT ITS BASIC LEVEL, FORGET ABOUT THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM, ITS PURPOSE AND EMPOWERMENT!
"Joecool says: More than likely, one or both of your downline will quit by next year. What will your "business" look like then?"
What will it look like? I WILL REBUILD IT AND NOT QUIT LIKE YOU DID!
"Joecool says: Why do so many IBOs insist that just because people choose other means of making a living other than quixtar, that they are of mediocre mentality."
Why? It is because those people insist to portray and convince that just because they are happy or think they are, everyone else must not only be happy but should be role models just like them! You see, they are ordinary just like them for to be special is weirdo! Truly speaking, people with above mediocrity mentality are the ones who are special and dreamers are definitely special.
"Joecool says: When that dream is not realized, they go back to Walmart and save with the overall lower prices."
Yeah right! Show me when Walmart last gave you a paycheck for moving their products and services. I haven't seen one yet!
"joecool says: My college didn't claim that I wold be rich walking the beaches of the world with a degree."
NEITHER DOES QUIXTAR GUARANTEE! THAT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED ALREADY BUT IT SEEMS YOU ARE DEAF!
"Joecool says: You + 2 downline = 300 PV. 300 PV = about 600 to 700 BV. That would give you a bonus in the neighborhood of $36, maybe a bit more or less. Of course your downline would be entitled to part of that bonus."
Let's look at 300 PV shall we, yes we shall!
So, 100 PV = $ 300 thus, PV:BV ratio = 1:3 so BV = $ 300.
Now, 300 PV = $ 900 thus, PV:BV ratio = 1:3 so BV = $ 900.
At 100 PV, one is entitled 3% of the $ 300 BV so, 3/100 * 300 = $ 9
At 300 PV, one is entitled 6% of the $ 900 BV so, 6/100 * 900 = $ 54
Through your business, you generate $ 54 at this level but you keep the difference of $ 36.
The two legs receive their $ 9.
9 * 2 = 18, 54 - 18 = 36.
However,
"Joecool says: If your "group" does 100 PV each, you will get a check for about $36. Each of your downline will get about $8 and you will get a whopping $20, which is still a net loss - because of the tools."
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN $ 20! BUT SEE, THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ARE A SMART GUY AND YOU DID NOT JUST STUMBLE OVER THE 36 FIGURE BY ACCIDENT. THIS IS A MODEL AND NO MODEL WORKS 100% IN REAL LIFE HOWEVER, YOU SEEM TO BE ADEPT AT FINDING EVERY LITTLE DETAIL AND MAGNIFYING IT LIKE IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
Going Crown said: I guess that it also true about franchises as well! Quixtar is a business opportunity model that combines direct marketing with franchising. Speaking of franchises
Joe says: Quixtar is not a franchise. Also, franchises make money from customers, unlike quixtar which makes most of its profit from its own salesforce!
Going Crown said: So, in your view, I guess that franchising is unethical and should be outlawed as both, a scam and a cult just like Quixtar!
Joe says: Franchising isn't unethical, but the quixtar system is.
Going Crown said: This company has been a BBB Accredited business since November 1999. This means it supports the BBB's services to the public and meets our BBB Accreditation standards.
Joe says: I did say quixtar was satisfactory in handling complaints. However, these agencies do not "praise" or endorse quixtar.
Going Crown said: From http://www.quixtarfacts.com/us-en/Opportunity/plan.html
"Quixtar's Independent Business Owner Compensation Plan is based on a proven plan that has been used legally and successfully for the past 40 years. In fact, an FTC judge, supported by the entire Federal Trade Commission, deemed that the plan now used by Quixtar is legal. The Quixtar business opportunity stands apart from such schemes as a model of integrity."
Joe says: Of course quixtar's own website will say nice things about quixtar! Where's the link you claimed that the FTC "praised" quixtar? It's doesn't exist does it?
Going Crown said: What will it look like? I WILL REBUILD IT AND NOT QUIT LIKE YOU DID!
Joe says: In 4 months, you sponsored 2. None of these 2 apparently sponsored anyone. So going on what you have done, you may sponsor 4 more in your first year of business. So after a year, you will have sponsored 6. Based on typical quixtar information, 4 of your downline will do nothing and 3 out of the 6 will quit.
If you can't sponsor 2 a month, you'll go broke, not crown.
Going Crown said: Yeah right! Show me when Walmart last gave you a paycheck for moving their products and services. I haven't seen one yet!
Joe says: Hmm, I spend $100 at Walmart, I instantly save about $40 for the same stuff I could get at Quixtar. But in quixtar, you get the same amount of products for $100 that I can get for $60 at Walmart. Difference is you get a rebate of $8 and you get to pay taxes on that. Shrewd business there GC.
Going Crown said: NEITHER DOES QUIXTAR GUARANTEE! THAT HAS BEEN EXPLAINED ALREADY BUT IT SEEMS YOU ARE DEAF!
Joe says: Quixtar doesn't, but many IBOs believe they will get rich and retire early by working the quixtar plan. Statistics indicate that more than 99% of all IBOs will never even make more net dollars than someone with a minimum wage job.
Going Crown said: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN $ 20! BUT SEE, THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ARE A SMART GUY AND YOU DID NOT JUST STUMBLE OVER THE 36 FIGURE BY ACCIDENT. THIS IS A MODEL AND NO MODEL WORKS 100% IN REAL LIFE HOWEVER, YOU SEEM TO BE ADEPT AT FINDING EVERY LITTLE DETAIL AND MAGNIFYING IT LIKE IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
Joe says: The 6-4-2 model does not work. In fact why use that model when nobody has ever done it? Add up the numbers, the 6-4-2 "model" guarantees that the majority have to lose money so a few can profit.
You ever going to address my issues?
1. The vast majority of IBOs make nothing or lose money. (Including you)
2. The vast majority of prospects would be better off working for minimum wage instead of working the quixtar business.
3. Quixtar prices are too high, rendering the business inefficient as a means to achieve financial goals.
4. Quixtar is not a way to achieve wealth. As the group grows, the losses mount for the group as a whole so a few select IBOs can profit.
5. Quixtar having "name recognition" partners does nothing to increase IBO profitability.
6. Tools drain resources from IBOs and do not assist the vast majority of IBOs to become profitable.
Your six issues have been addressed on November 1, 2007 08:17 AM. Please, read, don't spam.
Going Crown, you didn't address a single issue. Thanks for making my case.
Also, your "meltdown" also helps strengthen my case. I remain calm and stick to the facts.
So you are losing money and duplicating yourself. How and when does that turn into success?
Going Crown - I've never been involved with Quixtar short of being propositioned by a few people while standing in line at local stores. I work in a different industry entirely. But it seems like you're not really listening to what Joe is saying here. Quixtar can be 100% legal and benefit the other companies that it does business with. That doesn't mean it's a good company to work for. Those are two separate issues.
You're familiar with the notion of "return on investment" or ROI? You have something of quantifiable value; time or money, and you invest it and see what you get back. The ROI for Quixtar IBOs seems to be very very bad compared to even, say, working for McDonalds. This means it's a bad business investment. The risk is high enough that'd you'd be better off just gambling your money straight out and saving yourself a lot of time. This means that those few capable of enrolling in Quixtar and making $50,000
(not as many today as 10 years ago, due to market saturation) would be able to do considerably better with some other business. Any other business, for that matter.
Does this make sense?
"Ryan W. says: I've never been involved with Quixtar... I work in a different industry entirely... That doesn't mean it's a good company to work for... Does this make sense?"
Yes it does. Have you tried it yet?
"Joecool says: Also, your "meltdown" also helps strengthen my case. I remain calm and stick to the facts."
You are a funny guy! Has anyone offered you the opportunity to act as a clown on a well paid stage yet?
If I were to provide you with a paycheck as a hard proof, can you show me how and why you would be quiet afterwards and keep that promise?
Yes it does. Have you tried it yet?
Well, no. Why would I?
There have been plenty of pro quixtar posts on these boards, so I've been able to hear both sides of the story, so to speak.
Its easier to listen to what other people say, judge the validity of their arguments, and learn from their experiences.
Good points Ryan W.
"Have you tried it yet?
Well, no. Why would I?"
!!! So, why would I listen to you then?! No first hand experience tells me that you state opinions and that's awesome but I'm looking for more than just opinions. I'm looking to learn from credible, first hand experienced people within the industry. Opinionated people are everywhere!
"Its easier to listen to what other people say, judge the validity of their arguments, and learn from their experiences."
True. Listening is easier than doing provided that listening to learn will facilitate your doings. Point is, listen to everyone, learn from a few. Problem is, these blogs abound with everyone which leaves little room for the few. Hence, their occasional brief presence. They are busy laboring for now to reap the fruit for the future.
Going Crown, I was in the business. I did everything my upline advised. I went from 0 to 4000 PV in about 7-8 months with all the recommended parameters.
At that point, I was not profitable. The lack of profits and some other questionable advice from my upline led to my departure from the business.
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Amen. This sounds exactly like a conversation I had with my upline last week. Excellent essay and well-written. I have rejected the system, and I am currently waiting for my IBO-ship to expire. In the meantime, I cannot in good conscience introduce this disease to anyone I know in good conscience. As far as sales go, I am a salesman of sorts, so it isn't fear of sales, as "Systemites" would have us believe. Rather, I suggest that the truly honest person cannot build this business in good conscience.
Posted by: Josh on December 13, 2003 02:39 AM