Tim,

Welcome to the "Great Quixtar Debate." I think you're discovering what I began to discover a few months ago -- that this "debate" is much bigger and more divisive than I ever imagined. I began my blog for two primary reasons:

1. I was frustrated by the lack of current, timely, relatively unbiased and well-organized information about the mysterious company known as Quixtar.

2. I wanted a place to express my own thoughts, feelings and opinions about my wife's involvement with Quixtar.

Since that time the site has grown to the point where it has honestly begun to eclipse some of my other online endeavors. Every time I think of "quitting" and just shutting down the site I get an email or a comment from someone thanking me for my efforts. This lets me know that in some small way, my effort isn't for naught.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that my intentions were NOT to become some "Quixtar guy." That's partly why I began the site on my webraw.com site instead of giving it its own domain. I saw it as just something to do when I got bored on a Tues. night or when I needed to vent some frustrations or ask a question regarding "the business." And maybe, just maybe, you are getting "the itch" that I got a few months ago to further investigate this business and try to get at the root of why so many people feel so passionately about this particular business (either pro or con). I enjoy your perspective and appreciate you taking the time to share it with your regular readers. As they say on Saturday morning cartoons, "Knowledge is power!"

Take care,
QBlog dude

I think Quixtar is a fraud. The only people making the cash are on the top. I worked this business for 6 months and could not get one person on it. I only got my fam on it and they didnt want to buy anything because the products arent that great. if i was you, dont waste ur time with this business. Open your own. I know someone who has 800 people on their list and they make 8,000 a month. To get 800 people for this business, you got to contact a bunch of dummies or something.

Dont be decieved by Quixtar millionaires. Most of them are employed by the company. I know someone who is being employed to teach people and she is making 2k from teaching. Its a fraud and the govt should shut down this business.

Tim, I would take what you have to say one step further. Chris, you claim, as do most active, recruiting IBO's that Quixtar, and, by extension, Alticor are doing booming business and that things just couldn't be going better for this corporate family. One really has to wonder when the only figures available are those published by the company. Since AmQuix/Alticor are family-owned, they aren't bound to the same statictic-reporting regulations to which publicly traded corporations are held.

Yes, Amway, at least, seems to be prospering...In Asia. Thanks to recently loosened trade restrictions, Amway is doing quite well around the world, most notably in countries such as India and Korea. (See here: http://www.amquix.info/Amway_lies.html . Look under "AmQuix is on the verge of "critical mass" and explosive growth," about a third of the way down the page.)

So yes, for the new IBO in Seoul, South Korea, the virgin market is not a minefield of saturation and ill-will, like one will find in your average American community. If you are prepared to pull up stakes and move to a fresh market, you may very well experience explosive growth.

Unfortunately for Alticor, I doubt there are too many American IBO's prepared to stake their family's well-being and life savings to ship off to Asia to experience such "explosive growth."

Sure, the propaganda sounds good, but it wouldn't be propaganda if it didn't.

All, I am a little confused with this Quixtar thing. My boyfriend & I were introduced to this a couple of weeks ago by one of my friends, she calls herself the " DREAMER ". I am pretty sure I am not going to go any further with this, but in the other hand, my boyfriend is very excited about it and has set up a meeting in our home with the group of Quixtar. Please, give me more information on this. Is there a legal website run by the US Government where I can find more information on this company? I have checked in Bloomberg and nothing. Please advise.

Thanks,

Vanessa

Shaun,

That's a little like saying: "Within two years, I'll be president of my company."

Let us know when you get it, okay? :-)

Until then, care to share your actual income and expenses?

- Tim

A friend asked me to check out a business opportunity. I really like this guy and his wife so I said sure. The upline presenter started talking and i said it sounded like amway, he dodges and ducked that staement amd went on. He then mentioned that he was making 100,000 a year. In the same breath he said that it wasn’t a get rich quick scheme. I said I feel that if you can make 100,000 a year in less than 3 years that that was rich quick. So I said show me your 1099 and I will jump in right now, he said sure he had just gotten it last week. I even said that I wouldn’t use his income as representative of my expectations and would be happy with a third of that income. .........weird never got to see that 1099? He told my friend that it wouldn’t be fair to show me his 1099 because we were friends and that would be special treatment. I said ahhhh that makes sense?????!!! lol
You know I don’t want to ruin someone’s dreams, but I don’t like to see friends learn painful lessons either.

Well, quite useful information there, I really hope and I'm sure it will help the people who are so tactfully lied to about becoming "free". Only if I had read it 2 years ago...anyways, God bless you Tim! and to all "positive" ppl, Tim is not being paid to do this, but diamonds are making money off you, so who would u listen, an unbiased advise or some one who makes money by selling you useless crap?

Well I read a comment by an IBO: "Millions are doing it, millions of ppl can't be stupid", well, being a huge wrestling fan myself (yeah I know its silly, but I like it...), I know millions of ppl watch wrestling. Every body know it's fake, but they watch it, with same enthusiasm even more which i saw in Quixtar's FED :) And speaking of wrestling, I find following similarities between quixtar and wrestling:

1) Its two nights every week.
2) Majority knows it's fake.
3) Participants always get hurt, owner makes a lot of money.
4) important events (Pay per view / rallies) are rediculously expensive, and are once a month, every month.
5) Majority of participants would never achieve superstar status, no matter how good or technically sound they are, unless they know how to entertain audience.
6) Mike skills are way more important than actual thing.
7) Women are at most a diva, nothing else.
8) Normal public thinks it's silly. Well, it is, despit lot of money.
9) If you challange the owner, he'll screw you real bad (bret hart, bo short)
10) Help of your manager / upline can make all the difference :)

Anyways, I feel little bad about associating WWE with such an un-ethical organization...after all, their business is ethical and legal, they do give me good entertainment every time, and no body, well, except my 12 year old brother pushes me to watch it. But Quixtar can't top this one:

In WWE, A good guy / baby face can become a champion while still being a good guy...LOL

(to be fair, a lot of heels in WWE are very very nice in real life, can't say that about ppl who are ripping ppl off)

CLINT, you are my hero.

What I don't understand is if a person steals $.50 cents of merchandise from a store, they're a criminal, and if a billion dollar business scams thousands of people out of their money, and ruins lives like mine, they're still in business.

Yup, that's democracy. Quixtar has long ties with GOP and GOP covers them. A senator (forgot her name) actually is working to make this tool business legal via DSA. Source: pyramidschemealert.org.

Recently a person who is involved in this IBO business came up to me (at college). After some time of speaking with him he mangaged to get me to come to one of the siminars. Must of the plans they present at teh siminars seem to logically correct and that you can make a profit from doing this, but like I said earlyer I am a college student and very will educated so i know there are biases plans and that this could be a scam. (thats why i am at this site lol). I'm trying to find more information on this Quixtar and I am in a conflict of should i do this IBO business are not. So if anyone could help me out on this descision i would truly appreciate it. You could reply to this and also email me. darkcami@yahoo.com Thanks

Well, if it makes any difference to you, the person I wrote about above was no longer doing Quixtar, last I checked. She said she'd thought about some of the ethical argument made, and they bothered her conscience.

The average monthly return isn't that impressive -- something like $115 per month, last I checked. And that isn't after expenses, such as the markup you'll pay on the product, much less deducting the fair cost of your time.

There are people who post here who have done well, and then regretted it. Post here long enough, and I'm sure some of them will introduce themselves to you. There are also some here who are clearly selling the system.

My take: Basicly, it's pyramid which transfers money "upline" through product purchases. You buy a lot of the product, and put in a lot of time and incur a debit. Then you try to repay that debit by putting many more people into the same position -- sort of a geometric game of "hot potato", where each time you pass the potato, it multiplies. Either you get burned or lots more do, downline. Those who get burned downline are told it's their fault. It's not -- the game is rigged against everyone who isn't at the top.

Good intentions don't make one whit of difference. It's all about math.

Try the game with 100 people. 1 signs up 6. Now there are 7. The six sign up 36. Now there are 43. The thrity-six... have no-where to go. They can each sign up about 1.8 more people, who will get burned. As will the 36, because they won't break even with only 1.8 downlines.

Effort makes a difference, but all you're doing is ensuring someone else gets burned, not you.

It's like that in the larger population, too, but harder to observe, and slower. That's the reason this collapsed the last time it was done -- under the name "Amway".

Good luck.

I'm amazed at all the rantings about people who have lost money after getting involved with Quixtar. If you fork over thousands for tapes, or are stupid enough to leave your wife because your upline tells you to, then you deserve what you get.

All I need to know is that I can go to Officemax.com, disneydirect.com, or buy from catalogs such as Oriental Trading, Sharper Image, or hundreds of others, pay what I normally pay, and then get a check back the next month for a portion of what I spent. This ain't brain surgery, and I haven't attended any rallies or listened to any tapes. What's more, I bought my kids over six hundred dollars of Christmas presents at Toy-R-Us in October, only to find the same items in Quixtar's Holiday catalog for the same price or less. When they had a 20% off special on the entire catalog over Thanksgiving, I ordered everything I had already bought and returned them to Toys-R-Us. No problem. A quick $40 or so, plus points. I also got a Gazelle for less than anywhere on the internet with the exception of used ones on e-bay. And I can use it for six months, then return it if I feel like it, and Quixtar will pay for the shipping. I've already been through two digital cameras in that way as well. I can't imagine any smart consumer NOT taking advantage of Quixtar. It's $47 to joing for the first year, about $30 a year thereafter. Big risk.

kc: here is a thing. See the results. Take ANY diamondship and find if the group as a whole is losing $$ or making, i.e. is it a negative sum game, zero sum or positive sum. So far, there is NO diamond that has positive sum game. PPl come, waste some money and 50% or more leave in their first year.

So! 360K IBO in north America in 1977 in FTC lawsuite, 340K according to quixtar own press release. If it's so great, than y is that?

Kevin: Please don't spend money of tapes and don't put as much time. Balance ur budget after 6 months. Put ur PV level, bonus cheque and time spent + expenses. Which one is bigger? Just honestly do that urself.

Regarding the redirect argument: Toys 'R US is NOT Quixtar. partner of many.

If Quixtar items are THAT cheap, y almost no sales to outside clients? y sales less than that of nineties?

Sourse: mlmlaw.blogspot.com.

Here is the source of 0 population growth of Quixtar:

http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/09/zero-population-growth.html

360 K active in 1977
340 K active in Sept. 2004

"Regarding the redirect argument: Toys 'R US is NOT Quixtar. partner of many. "

If you will please re-read my post, you will see that I purchased the toys at a local Toys-R-Us, then returned them when they proved to be cheaper when Quixtar ran a 20% off special on all items in their holiday catalog over Thanksgiving weekend. I saved $6 on each of two Fairytopia playsets, $9 on a Sing & Dance Elmo (not from Toys-R Us, from BJ's, which is like a Price Club or Sam's. I have since seen this item at local stores for lower than the $19 I paid at Quixtar. They have lowered their prices, I assume because it is not selling well.), $6 on an Elmo Sing n' Teach Table,, and a few others.

Also, I bought a Gazelle Edge exercise machine for $190, plus $20 flat shipping. Being at the 9% bonus level, I then got $6 back the next month.. So I paid $204. A search on google shows the best price for this item to be at Walmart, for, believe ot or not, $204. (At least this was the case in October, when I bought it.) Had I been at a higher bonus level I could have gotten back as much as $16.66, making it cheaper than Walmart's by $10. The only place I've seen them cheaper is on ebay, and most of those say "refurbished." What's more, I can now use it for six months, then decide if I want to keep it. If I don't, they pay for return shipping. It's amazing. I bought my wife a sewing machine two years ago. She never tried it, I forgot about it. I called to see if I could return it when we had had it for just over eight months. Not only did they take it back, they paid for the shipping and insurance.

If Quixtar items are THAT cheap, y almost no sales to outside clients? y sales less than that of nineties?

I'm assuming it's because people don't take the time to do their research. Have you? No store is going to be the cheapest source of ALL items, but most will have some excellent deals.

But let's ignore Quixtar's prices for a minute. Look at the partner stores. E-toys, a partner store, had EVERY item that I had already purchased at Toys-R-Us, most for the exact same price, and shipping was free on all items except Dora The Exporer's house, which had a $5 charge because it's big. Even though I would have made a little back through the bonus check, I didn't bother re-buying all the toys from eToys and returning the ones I had to Toys-R-Us. Too much trouble to do all of them, so I just did the ones I considered worthwhile. Too bad I hadn't thought to check e-toys first.

How about Office Max? Are there cheaper sources for HP inkjet cartridges? There might be, but I haven't really checked. For my epson, I buy cheapy cartridges on ebay ten at a time, but I haven't really found cheap ones for my HP 11x17 printer. I usually run out of ink during a big print run and then have to run to Staples or Office Max near me. Where I live, when I order something from Office Max.com they deliver it to my house the next day, for free if the order is over $50. They also constantly have specials. I got a lot of cases of Poland Spring bottled water for 16¢ a bottle in September, the same price as BJ/s, then got a few dollars back the next month in my bonus check.

My wife and I have also been big shoppers at the disneystore.com, now disneydirect.com, over the years. They often have items that you can't get in the Mall Disney Stores, and my two little girls are big princess fans.

Also -- we own a dance studio and have subsribed to Dance Teacher Magazine for at least 5 years. Well, their "superspecial, custome only" renewal price was $24. At partner store magazineline.com, I renewed for $19.

It costs $47 to join Quixtar, and $30 to renew each year. I made that money back just through the items I returned to Toys-R-Us.

I don't buy any tapes, I don't go to rallies. I just buy what makes sense, I try the Quixtar products that intrigue me, and I use them if I like them. if not, they refund my money promptly. ( I tried soy peanut butter. The less said there the better, but a friend who is allergic to peanuts eats it.)

From the negative stuff I read on the internet, I assume many people buy some sort of kit of books and tapes and don't realize they can register with Quixtar for only $47. So it's unfortunate that so many scam artists use Quixtar in that way. But to me it is even MORE unfortunate that so many people are out there warning people away from it and calling Quixtar itself a scam. You're "saving people" from a legitimate opportunity to make some money. And every time I tell a friend and they start using Quixtar as I do, they either save a little money or make a little money, and I make a little bit more. Even though I've been involved for two years or so, I've only told a few so far , because it IS often an uncomfortable subject for me to bring up. It only took one or two eye roles when I said the word "Quixtar" to make me gunshy, and I am NOT a natural salesman. So my trip to daimond-hood is unlikely. But I AM comfortable expressing my views in anonymous forums such as this. If anyone is interested in approaching Quixtar in my fashion, e-mail me at bdtkevin@optonline.net. I'll answer any questions you have, either here or through my e-mail.
Good luck to all -- and don't believe everything you read on the internet. Check out the facts for yourself!
Kevin

Hey Tim,

I was a Quixtar rep for all of 1 month. I went to the meetings listened to the retoric and for the most part bought into it, until I acctually was authorized to get on to the web site and especially when I got my first bill. Their claim that you save 30% and you buy at wholesale prices is simply nonsense. You are charged a shipping fee on top of a picking fee, plus taxes, and all the while the products are very expensive.

Now that is just one deception, theres more. I got out before they started trying to sell me cd's, books, and other "training" material the would "help" my business grow. The IBO's are quite literally brainedwashed. The have a strange lingo, they speak as if they are already rich, i.e., "I'm a Diamond", yet they are pulling in $6.05 a month.

My friends are IBO's and won't even listen to what they call "negative" information. The fact is 99.99% of IBO's do not make nearly the money that is claimed to be possible.

Also the IBO's are taught to believe that Quixtar is not Amway. In 2003 (I believe) the Amay distributors were transfered into Quixtar (you may want to verify that, but I believe that is correct).

One more thing, the only reason why Quixtar sells so much is because the IBO's buy so much. It's not the general public buying from IBO's, it's IBO's supposedly buying from themselves (I say supposedly buying from themselves because the only one making a profit is the Alticor Corporation).

I can go on and on but I simply do not have the time at this moment. Simply put stay away from Quixtar.

David

I believe quixtar is a scam. I looked at the products and even ordered some. I went to the meetings and people are brainwashed. They think that being in quixtar they got life all figured out. That's sad ....but people will force themselves to believe anything when they really want it bad enough no matter how strong the proof is that it's a scam.

Imran Said> If Quixtar items are THAT cheap, y almost no sales to outside clients? y sales less than that of nineties?

Kevin Said> I'm assuming it's because people don't take the time to do their research. Have you? No store is going to be the cheapest source of ALL items, but most will have some excellent deals.
------------------------------------------
Tim: Any thoughts about configuring a phpBB forum? Its much easy to quote and quite readable. Let me know if I can assist you.

Ok Kevin, first I love your way of doing Quixtar, product based, giving ppl cheaper deals. But I disagree that ppl don't do research for cheaper deals. It's all they do, else flea market near my home won't be full all the time. Yes no store will be cheaper all the time, but ppl will go for value. Value = quality, price, east to shop, delivery, accessibility, marketing, shopping experience etc. Instead of blaming ppl, a business men should adopt to ppl. It won't be very intellegent if I open a shop and start whining ppl don't understand etc. I have to be the one to adopt to customer. No?
------------------------------------

Kevin said>From the negative stuff I read on the internet, I assume many people buy some sort of kit of books and tapes and don't realize they can register with Quixtar for only $47. So it's unfortunate that so many scam artists use Quixtar in that way. But to me it is even MORE unfortunate that so many people are out there warning people away from it and calling Quixtar itself a scam. You're "saving people" from a legitimate opportunity to make some money. And every time I tell a friend and they start using Quixtar as I do, they either save a little money or make a little money, and I make a little bit more. Even though I've been involved for two years or so, I've only told a few so far , because it IS often an uncomfortable subject for me to bring up. It only took one or two eye roles when I said the word "Quixtar" to make me gunshy, and I am NOT a natural salesman. So my trip to daimond-hood is unlikely. But I AM comfortable expressing my views in anonymous forums such as this. If anyone is interested in approaching Quixtar in my fashion, e-mail me at bdtkevin@optonline.net. I'll answer any questions you have, either here or through my e-mail.

Imran Said> Well we are just posting our view, you are yours. Freedom of speech. And you are objecting against it? I'm just trying to understand it. Look I do consulting business. I don't mind criticism about it. I'd welcome it. If there is some thing to it, I'll improve it. If no, it won't matter at all. why Quixtar IBOs are so sensitive about negativity? If Quixtar has some value, ppl will join it like crazy. Every one could use a couple of bucks. If they don't, don't blame critics. Think about it and work on it.

Here is an IBO you'd like:
http://daveontheroad.blogspot.com/

And they have an invite only forum, making the run. Ask dave. You might get some help from them.

Good luck!

I was like David. I was gung ho for 1 month or so. I don't care how the company wants to make their money. If they can sell stuff then that is wonderful, good for them! However the promise of getting good deals on products was totally asenyne. How am I supposed to tell a friend that 7 dollars is a good deal for a meal replacement bar?? I am not one of these quixtar haters like some. However I do feel like i need to be able to sleep at night and this system was ridiculous.

Hi, I'm Rob,
I was nearly turned off to the idea of continuing to offer other poeple the opportunity to check out BWW/Quixtar for themselves about a year ago, but some things hit me pretty hard that fortunately stopped me short of remaining ignorant.

I used to resent sites like this because they made me uncomfortable, I think I had been taking the criticism offered personally. I was also scared that these things would undermine my efforts (I have found, thankfully, that those who truly wish to be informed don't hide under the table everytime someone challenges what they believe- otherwise everyone who saw Farenheit 911 would have run immediately to vote for John Kerry without gaining any further insight.) (That was politically neutral criticism of a stupid propoganda flick that left me scratching my head the first time i saw it- check out the claims behind that thing if you really want to wonder about a lot of voters who cited it as pivotal in making their decision.)

I have since come to realize that all worthy undertakings come with some adversity, AND A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD ARE STILL WILLING TO DEAL WITH IT! (And they are not ALL suckers for those who like to claim that :) I think the biggest problem of all (as relevant to this discussion) is that most people aren't very brave to begin with, including me. Most people are just plain afraid of a lot of things. I think that being teased (at all) is an option that most people wouldn't choose (some people tease you if you check out Quixtar you know ;) I also think that most people are afraid of being wrong, afraid to make mistakes, afraid of failure, afraid of rumors and afraid to take risks. I don't blame anyone who feels that way, I DO! Most successful people get laughed at and fail and make mistakes at some point, though.

Long story short(er) Still kinda long ;)

First off, I have learned A LOT because a stranger was brave enough to ask me a question. ("Are you keeping your eyes open when it comes to making money?" I was.)

Secondly, I have been a Christian all of my life and I take the Bible completely seriously. Most of my most difficult issues regarding money in general were due to a misunderstanding on my part of what is written in there. (this would make for a very long- but very interesting discussion, the Bible has A LOT to say about money). "So-called" ethical reasons brought up on a site like this are what almost made me quit. They were powerful and important considerations- but they were wrapped in fear. I was AFRAID that they MIGHT BE TRUE! They were. Did you catch that? IF I CHOSE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PEOPLE IN AS A MEANS TO AN END THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The site left out the option to ACTUALLY HAVE INTEGRITY in my business though. I see that now. I bet I could blow somebody out of Quixtar in a second if I wanted to- I have a pretty good imagination! I could make up a scenario where you are left penniless, friendless, wifeless and under God's wrath just for considering Quixtar if I wanted (try me ;)
But I know that I would be leaving out some very important sides of the TRUTH!

Because of my experience with Quixtar:

-I am now able to EDUCATE myself efficiently regarding money because of the advise available to me through the incredible people who I work with.

-I also have a wonderful business vehicle through which to refine by experience a few of the most difficult and sometimes painful characteristics a person can gain: People skills, a guage of my own integrity and honesty, a guage of my belief system, courage, patience, love and concern for others, the ability to listen to others, humility, self respect, perseverance, servitude, true leadership skills and OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

-I treasure these things much more than money.

On the subject of money:

-Most people worship it or fear it in my opinion.
-Most people don't learn to manage it or how to have it work for them.
-Accounting isn't easy, but it is important to take control of money.
-Understanding what an asset is is important.
-Goals are important.
-Faith that is acted upon is needed first in order to accomplish anything -example, none of us learned to tie our shoes until we believed that we one day could- then the practice began!
Making money is the same.

One very difficult lesson for me to learn was this: Great wealth requires work done outside of a single person. Those who desire great wealth must admit this. Your boss is fine with the idea. King Solomon didn't work for the majority of his fortune. Bill gates didn't either. Neither, unfortunately, did Al Capone.
Some people take advantage of many people to become wealthy, some help many people in order to become wealthy. The only way, however, to make money through the hard work of other people voluntarily (without forcing it out of them) is to offer them in return something that they desire. This might be products or services or knowledge or attention or nice-sounding lies (in the case of many governments, scams, and some people in Quixtar) or painful truth or a challenge, and usually financial benefit of some kind. If you offer someone a job or a partnership or a business opportunity, you make money by helping them make money. If you don't they can always QUIT! If you make money through lies, poeple eventually FIND OUT! In my experience I have seen the very best of these things coming from the people I work with in BWW. I have heard horror stories also come out of Quixtar that illustrate the worst of these things (I suspect dishonest and fearful people as the culprits- I doubt that most of them are REALLY as bad as they are made out to be, though).

I am currently making money by teaching other people what I know and giving them the option to do as I do, but I NEVER TELL THEM THAT IT WILL BE EASY. I honestly don't expect most people to be willing to do what I do. There are 9 core steps in the Britt system that are recommended to minimize risk of failure. (Actually showing the plan to other actual poeple is one of them, forms of self-education make up more than half of them and having INTEGRITY is a step!) Most people don't come close to doing them. That's fine, I guess. Some of them want their upline to build their whole business for them, which is sometimes done. Most people try their own way first and fail. The smart ones don't quit there. If someone tells you how to do something they did, and you don't do it how they say, don't expect the same result as them unless you don't mind if you get different results. I do more work than anyone in my business, but that is why I am more successful than they are right now. Make sence? I look for people WHO WANT TO WORK WITH ME! They have to decide that for themselves. No one HAS to be my friend, my friends choose to be my friends- but I am still responsible to be someone that others want to be friends with if I want friends! My wife didn't have to marry me! She chose to- but I first had to be (which meant I had to become) the man that she wanted to marry! If I would like to have a happy wife I need to CONTINUE TO BE THE MAN SHE WANTS TO BE MARRIED TO!!!!!! (Big hint if you are experiencing relationship issues- I am not about to elaborate on that though! :)

All the people who posted so far seem like good people. Anyone can ask me whatever they want, but give me time to respond, I almost never do chat rooms (takes too much time- not enough substantive info to be worth it to me). I may or may not check this site again. E-mail me though if you want.

God bless you all, have fun LEARNING!

Rob

e-mail: rxm7909@sru.edu

P.S. If you want to discuss numbers and income and statistics with me, be ready to provide your own info and credentials. My financial situation looks pretty ugly right now to be perfectly honest. I paid well over $100,000 for my education! (That's college and grad school by the way- not Quixtar- got ya ;)

P.S.II I wasted WAY too much time on this, I'm saving it :)

Rob,

I want to congratulate you on what is probably one of the best pro-Quixtar posts we've had here. You explained your position, you didn't insist on calling everyone else a "loser", and you (mostly) avoided the same old tired lines most IBOs employ.

I agree with you strongly on some of the points you've posted, such as people being driven, frequently, by fear of being wrong, etc. I'm glad you've gotten over that are trying to be as honest as you can.

So I have a few questions for you:

1. Since you are a Christian, you surely believe in the "do unto others" rule, right? That is, that we should treat others as we'd want to be treated -- am I correct about this?

2. When you want to buy some product, after you know all the features, what's the most important thing people want to know? The cost, right? And when people are applying for a job, what's the most important thing in their mind? The salary, right? The thing everyone wants to know is how much something will cost them, or how much they can reasonably expect to earn, right?

With me so far?

3. Yet Quixtar doesn't generally divulge this to people, even though the numbers are readily available!

Well Tim, Quixtar DOES reveal their stats on signing up. They do tell the prospects that average income is $115 in SA400. They also tell that IBOs are giving up their right to go to court in case of any future disagreement. (arbitration, which according to IBOAI member Jody Victor is a joke).

To add, these both are in fine print. I'd venture to say that 90% ppl don't read them.

Rob, congratulations. I don't know but many quixtr related blogs and forums attracts militant type of IBOs. I haven't seen any IBO as logical as u here. Sorry Tim but thats my observation from the limited posts I have read here.

So, may I answer few questions from you? Not ur financials, about BWW?

What are the 10 bonuses they show when the show the plan? one is Volume bonus, other is group binus, 3rd is leadership bonus. What are the remaining 7?

P.S. If you want to discuss numbers and income and statistics with me, be ready to provide your own info and credentials.
I'm ready. Like what?

I'm not asking your income and your pay cheque. So I don't know if that's fair. I'll definitely have mine ready if I ask yours. Fair?

Disney,Levis,Panasonic,IBM,Microsoft,officemax, to name a few legit business we work with.

Can I tell you a secret?

Most of these companies will sell their products to ANY one. And Quixtar is just an affiliate with those companies and quixtar sell their products. It's not a partnership. Naming those companies to justify legitness is pathetic.

If a shop, start selling these products, does that shop become legitimate just because of those products? No!!!

And no, you do not WORK with those companies. You are an associate of Quixtar and buy these products via quixtar.com. And at rare occasion, sell some of those.

http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2005/03/monday_reader_mail_34.php

I get legal tax write offs from guess who the goverment what a concept but you guys all figured it out and they missed it.

Are you sure it's legal? I'm not saying it's illegal but I won't say it 100% legal either. I don't know how much retail u do but if u r not selling 50PV, u r not entitled for a bonus cheque. Neither tax writeoff. But as I was told, tranfer 50 personal PV toward retail and bam! you got ur bonus cheque and entitled for a writeoff. Glad I quite in a year and last month, did a lot of retail as well.

Besides, if u don't turn good profit in 2 years, Quixtar business will be considered as a hobby business. No write offs than.

Just because the majority of people in any business are scaming a holes doesn't mean the company is.

LOL! this is hillarious. What is company doing about those who are scamming? Nothing. So?

http://www.merchantsofdeception.com

nuff said and no you can't e-mail me because I was taught that to get people through third partys is wrong and spaming make you and the company look weak.

you expect ppl to email you based on what you wrote? Seriously?

sorry about spelling and grammer did this quick so as not to waste time

I love spelling mistakes. I really do. I do that all the time. It's fun.

Imran said: "And no, you do not WORK with those companies. You are an associate of Quixtar and buy these products via quixtar.com. And at rare occasion, sell some of those."

So true! Why do IBOs so easily confuse "purchasing" and "partnering"? It's because they don't realize they are simply consumers.

Shane, please listen. Imran has direct, extensive personal experience in this area, and you should not take his advice lightly. He is not writing to you for his own profit, but is selflessly attempting to save you some pain to yourself by sharing what he has learned.

Shane said: "I was taught that to get people through third partys is wrong and spaming make you and the company look weak."

No, there's a more insidious reason for this.

If Quixtar's products really could compete in the market they would sell directly, and advertise, themselves. The fact they do not should tell you something.

Think: Advertising is a very effective technique which makes marketing efforts more efficient. A few thousand dollars gets an ad before a lot of peoples' eyes. Those companies you are so proud to "partner" with -- IBM, OfficeMax, Disney etc. -- weren't built by word-by-mouth or "plan showing" -- they never would exist in the first place without advertising.

Likewise, a third party could extend any IBOs' reach and help them be more efficient.

Who cares what it "looks" like? Does Disney "look weak" because it advertises??? Of course not. And OfficeMax's investors would declare it "weak" if it didn't advertise.

So really, since it works, why not do it?

Because it's not profitable for Quixtar.

Allow me to explain: Imagine that you could make every single Quixtar IBO do their marketing work ten times more efficiently. If a particular IBO could show the plan 6 times a week before, now he can show the plan 60 times per week.

What would happen?

Quixtar would lose a lot of money, that's what would happen!

Please realize that most IBOs drop out after about a year or two. I've heard current dropout rate is something close to 50% per year. (Imran undoubtedly has his finger on these stats better than I do.) Only a tiny fraction will ever make even Platinum, which is currently averaging only $15,000 per year before expenses.

If you could make an IBO prospect ten times faster, he (or she) would also realize they're out of leads ten times faster. Instead of taking 20 months to drop out, a particular IBO would take only 2. That means Quixtar loses 18 months of sales to that IBO.

Imagine if that happened across the board! Quixtar would lose 90% of it's profits. And the same could be said for the "tools" as well.

Again, take note: Quixtar makes its money selling product to IBOs while they prospect. That means the sales process needs to be as slow as possible to keep IBOs interested, moving forward, gaining people to replace those dropping out, but at a nice, slow, measured, steady rate. You want to string each IBO along as long as possible.

And that, in a nutshell, is why you do not advertise. Not because advertising is obsolete -- it is not. But because word of mouth is slow, and therefore very, very profitable.

And, by the way, this also explains the various social aspects of Quixtar, which act like a "glue" to help keep the IBO attached and going as long as possible.

And dittos with the "dream visualizing" exercises, which are a powerful form of mental manipulation to cause the IBO to mentally link their hopes only to Quixtar.

Cool I found this again! (I tried to remember something I wrote before to make the search more specific, but it took a couple tries ;)

Wow! Lot's of questions!
I think for me, the whole matter is a perspective issue. I'll do my best to make sense! (I'm currently taking a 1 AM study break during finals and I didn't sleep last night so no guarantees :)

Let's see, here's the first three questions:

1. Since you are a Christian, you surely believe in the "do unto others" rule, right? That is, that we should treat others as we'd want to be treated -- am I correct about this?

yes :) That verse is in Luke chapter 6 (verse 31?)I believe. Goes along with Love your nieghbor as yourself as Jesus said in Matthew and Mark... Jesus listed Loving your nieghbor as yourself as #2 of two greatest commandments. (Loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, mind, strength #1) He said that all of the Laws and the Prophets follow from these. This is really a verse to live by, not just agree with. Can't be a very obedient Christian without doing this. I like this as a start :)

2. When you want to buy some product, after you know all the features, what's the most important thing people want to know? The cost, right? And when people are applying for a job, what's the most important thing in their mind? The salary, right? The thing everyone wants to know is how much something will cost them, or how much they can reasonably expect to earn, right?

With me so far?

With ya :)

3. Yet Quixtar doesn't generally divulge this to people, even though the numbers are readily available!

Ok. I haven't read through the FYI's on the QUIXTAR site in a while but I always found them to be informative.

Most initial info gets to a new person through the IBO who contacted them. I always give people a 6-4-2 sheet and a CD (sorry, I lend them! I loose a lot of them because of that attitude ;) People can request more info if they want to. We have starter packs (they are pretty informative). I don't use them very much, but they are available. I should probably use them more now that you bring that up! :)

Prices for products are on the site itself. I actually have the oposite opinion about prices. I didn't buy certain products initially because they looked really expensive (I come from a family of ten- you learn to be cheap!). Most are really concentrated. I finally broke down and tried the shampoo a couple months ago for example (I thought it was just really fancy or something). Apparently it is very concentrated and I don't need to use much. I would imagine that the cost per use is at least competitive with the Walmart stuff I used, plus I earn PV/BV. I really like the dish soap, that stuff kicks butt. My wife and I still haven't gone through a large bottle in two years! Quality is very good. Products not as expensive per use as they look. I would compare most prices to Walmart per use. In that ball park. I'm not really big on promoting savings unless people shop at the mall a lot.

Income potential is a biggy. I'm not sure if my answer will really be satisfactory to you. (I might have a different point of view than many of you on the matter- I'm fairly conservative). Here goes anyhow. First of all, for the guy who wants to know about my finances, I have a state electrician's license for the state of Ohio and I contract jobs independently from time to time during school. (When customers don't rip me off I charge and make $35 an hour + materials). I'm working on a clinical doctorate. My wife is a long-term sub for a 7th grade Math teacher currently. Our monthly income outside of Quixtar money and school loans is around 2000 a month. We have currently budgeted about 600 dollars a month toward business. Between 300 and 400 for products- which is perhaps 150 dollars more than I would usually spend because I give away a lot of samples and because I would normally shop at Aldi and Salvo and get free stuff from my parents since people still donate a lot of food to them- 8 kids like I said. We try to make a point to be pretty self-sufficient on our own products. About 100 bucks a month goes toward books and tapes (standing order is around $50, but I often buy extra when I find CD's that are especially useful- like the new Powerwave CD- very informative for new people.) Functions, and any additional travel expenses (I'm really good at being cheap here) are around $100 or so a month on average. Communication tools and cell-phone and internet are about 100 more, but only about $20 dollars a month of this is more than normal for school and electrical work. Do the math and our monthly business investment is in the neighborhood of 400-500 dollars on top of our normal monthly budget. I consider myself to be one of the rare IBOs who actually treats my business like a business. My short term goal is to BREAK EVEN! WOO HOO! If a lot of you are shaking your heads that's fine. The whole point to all of this is that I am actually doing the work needed to run my business as a business. Realistically speaking, and I tell everyone this, you are just a glorified customer of yourself until you start to turn a profit of some kind. I make more immediate income doing electrical work, but I have to deal with a brand-new customer, another old-disguesting attic, and all new problems to troubleshoot everytime in order to get payed again! I am building a Quixtar business for the residual income. Like I said, short term goal is 400-500 a month. After that, 2000, which covers all of our monthly expenses. (According to some, residual income equal to expenses = financial independence, assuming my business structure is stable)

Because I am currently the primary plan shower in my business, our monthly volume reflects how much work I put in. New people tend to do more and buy more the more I help them. That said, we have a small growing business of 4 legs with 1 layer of depth in one leg. I am currently working with about a dozen more people who are taking a look and I am increasing the number of plans I am showing. We have had two legs do over 100 points out of the four. We don't have any consistent legs yet. (By legs I mean businesses we are working with for those who aren't familiar with that terminology). My wife and I have hit 1000 points before ($300 bucks income), but a lot of that was a couple of water treatment system sales. When I have showed the plan less than 5 times in a month, the next month tends to yield about 200-350 PV. ($20-$40 bucks) The months when I showed more than 10 plans got us up around 600 points in the next month or two (around $100). Momentum is very big in this business. A lot of the people I am working with are getting re-energized right now, and I am no longer the only one showing the plan. Basic message here, showing the plan more = more income. My goal is to consistently show the plan 15+ times per month for a whole year. Everyone I know who has done that has a huge business. It's not a big secret to figure out who is showing the plan in this business! Anyway, I was pretty honest here. You can look at my business and call me a failure if you want to, but I have learned a set of skills that I can apply in order to create massive residual income. I don't beg people to join my business. I offer them my time! I know that I will be the one doing most of the work for a while because MOST PEOPLE DON'T SHOW THE PLAN!!!!

As a sidenote, the math has always worked out according to the business plan when we get checks. I know exactly how much is coming in based upon my monthly PV/BV and that of my down-line.

A lot of people like me exist who really enjoy this. I don't mind if the people posting here don't like QUIXTAR. If everything I just told you sounds hard and unethical, than by all means, don't do it! I'm looking for crazy people like me to work with :)

As far as my own expectations for earning are concerned. I expect to show at least ten plans this month and sponsor 2 more people at the minimum. I expect to sponsor 5 times faster than people quit. I like to offer people the opportunity to quit and to get there money back if they don't do anything. At the point when I have sponsored 20 people personally, which is an additional 16 people, I expect our group momentum to drive us to platinum as I have seen happen many times. I don't expect all 20 to do what I do! I expect that 3 or 4 of them will be serious about this!

For those of you who are curious, those 3 or 4 are the only ones in any danger of significant financial risk out of the 20. I will be working with them and helping them the MOST! That's pretty much how it goes.

I do have a few questions for Imran:
How long were you involved? Did you show the plan? Does what I'm saying reflect your experience? Can you be specific about the facts involved with your experience?

Thanks guys, I know you asked a lot more questions, some of them were pretty fun ones. I might hop on again in a week or so to catch some of them. I was pretty long winded about our currently messy finances, but hey, that's reality!

Last thing. When I sponsor someone, I GIVE THEM MY TIME AND LOVE! I hope that my life experience is worth the 40 bucks it costs them to sign up!

Rob

I really need to study but I couldn't resist!
Imran asked about the other 7 ways of making money. I think this is a fun topic. We always say there are like 30 ways. Little stuff like credit card offers money back, stuff like that. Major stuff: I believe that at the Q-12 level or maybe emerald level tapes and CDs only cost 5 bucks or 5.50 before tax. Anyway, the rest is profit. I would argue that at that point you have earned it! Speakers at Rallies and Functions are paid. That is another big one for emeralds and above. 4% bonus is another one. Emerald bonus, Diamond bonus, growth bonuses are others. Way number 31 is my favorite. A buddy of mine took charge of ordering pizzas for about 30 people in our group at a function last year. He had everyone pitch in 4 bucks. When the pizzas came he was standing there with a handful of extra money that he was trying to hand back out. Our upline platinum, who always cracks me up yelled over to him, HEY! Keep it! That must be the 31st way to make money in this business!

Anyway, I don't know them all, but those are a few. I personally don't have a problem with my upline making money from tapes and speaking engagements. I gladly pay for those things because they are valuable to me, someone deserves to profit from them or why would they bother doing it anymore? Just a thought.

P.S. I like the idea of getting paid for speaking engagements :) My mom is a singer and most of her performances are free. In my opinion she is worth paying to hear, and I can't necessarily learn to earn more money back after listening to her ;)

Have a good night you guys :)

Ok Rob, can u answer me some questions:

1) Every American / Canadian hold a write to go to court and get a trial. Why in Quixtar a person has to sign up BSMAA and give up that right? Isn't it fishy enough? Who does business that way? Answer: Mafia.

2) Where do you prospect ppl?
3) How many ppl you prospect seems interested? Do they all like to be prospected?
4) What are your monthly expenses on books and tapes? Don't you feel that theese teachings are bit redundant?

As a Uk IBO there are amny points raised in this discussion that I don't understand, because of differences in the way it is organised. However I would like to highlight the many ways of making money through the "quixtar" business. I haven't paid for any seminar tickets or motivational material. All I paid was my start up costs, I am a university student so can't afford to just buy from myself, this said I am still managing to make money from te little work I put in. All I have done is redirect the money I spend. I would usualy go to a supermarket or a high street store for the things I can now buy through my online business. Many friends and people I know have been interested in where i do my shopping, especially as e-commerce is now so big, this has meant that my core line products as well as those form "partner stores" have been selling to all kinds of people thanks to my referral by others.
The result is that yes companies are benefiting from my spending, but that was always going to happen, its just that now I am buying htings I always did, at a similar/cheaper price and getting money back on my purchases. I really can't understand what all the fuss and negativitey is about. People will have bad experiences in meany lines of work, immorality or whatever you want to call it, but these industires still run effectively. SOme people bad experiences should not be used as a way of deterring other people from finding things out for themselves.

Are u sure that products are indeed cheaper? I seriously doubt that.

As for the 1 in 1000 comment... everyone in that room has the ability to be a diamond.

Sure they do, but each of them will need 1000 others who are not Diamond. That does not depend on any other factor than mathematics.

Have you ever been to one of their major functions?

I have been, in many of them. First their advice is not evil. E.g. there is nothing wrong with loving freedom. There is nothing wrong with wanting things. But manipulating these wants, greed and instilling fear is bad.

Functions are funny! Why do I need to travel this far? Put a recording online for 1/1000th of cost (of whole group). Here is the reason:

In a dark and cold hall, sitting tired after 1000 miles journey, sleep deprived, perfect for hypnotizing dream. Think about it. Why do they need you there to teach you when you can be taught by an online video if not text?

Paul,

As for the 1 in 1000 comment... everyone in that room has the ability to be a diamond. Whether they do or not depends on many factors mostly determination and their personal skill set but because it takes a lot of work, a few years. obviously a few have done it.

Quixtar Diamonds aren't "mined", they're manufactured -- in order for one Diamond to get rich, many, many downlines must incur significant debt, as their wealth is transferred "upward" to create the Diamond. Many small debts are accrued, and passed on, in order to make one "profitable" Diamond.

Paul,

First of all, good for you for actually reading something (unlike so many who comment here), whether you agreed or not. Kudos!

I assume the negative slant on "Early successes are easier" applies to Google, Microsoft, Ford, etc too .... right? I mean let's be fair, Although I disagree that it applies here. Of course the early ones get early rewards. Welcome to capitalism.

Quixtar IBOs will say: "Anyone can succeed at this if they just try." But that's not true in the slightest: In a "system" which spreads that way, effort is FAR less important than entry-time, and what IBOs say is utterly false. If I'm the last one in, multiplying my effort by a million won't make the slightest difference.

In contrast, in the cases you cite, the exact opposite is true. If the first car company doesn't expend much effort, then new car company with a better product -- say, Toyota -- can usurp existing market share, even if it enters the market much later. That's not even slightly true for a new Quixtar IBO.

Are you not able to see the huge difference between these two different situations?

The point of the "plan" is residual income.

That residual income only happens as long as the people under you stay signed up. In theory, this probably won't happen, as in any closed market (and each town is closed to those who don't want to travel -- and most won't), the people on the bottom won't tend to stay in, as it gets harder and harder to locate those last downlines.

When this happens, they will be disappointed in their expectation -- which you have just helpfullly confirmed is still how it is sold -- of making the most profit from residual income. When they quit, the IBO above them must find more people to replace them.

I'm not sure I understand how you see Quixtar out growing the population. I guess when it does get to the point when everyone in the U.S. is an IBO then there may have to be a shift in plans but we as a country have protections against such monoploies. I think that is really streaching things to assume that it will reach that point. Most anything maxiumized to infinity looks bad.

Right now, the last stat I heard was that Quixtar IBOs stood for about .002% of the population. If I were to throw a dart at a map of my city looking for a place to open a Subway. I probably have to rethrow it a few times so I didn't land next to one that already existed. But if I were to open the local phone book and point to a name I'd have a pretty good chance they weren't an IBO. So I really think the saturation issue is mute. Not even to mention it's international. The thought 670 billion people makes my head spin. IBOs are a drop in the bucket compared to that.

Let me throw some negativity here.

85% failure rate is a stupid myth. Many small businesses sell their business or move their venue, and they are counted as "Business who used to be there, not any more". Your article explains it very well. Uh but IBOs who relocate are still counted as active if they're active right?

Quixtar plan I saw used the same number, didn't explain it like ur article did, twist it and use it as a scare tactic to promote Quixtar as only way left to survive.

66% percent of all IBO's are active. Conversely 33% aren't.

That's at any given time. Inactive ones usually don't renew.

More than 50% ppl also Quit every year.

Amway has been around since 1959; and did I mention .002% of the population? It's sold $4.7 billion and it's net worth is billions beyond that and it still hasn't made a dent in the population. You can't argue the numbers.

Yes you can't! Amway numbers are same, shouldn't it have grown?