Well...it's people like you who do NOT LISTEN and make what ever you want out of the situation. You apparently need to re-read what I have written, and change your assumptions to logical thinking if you can. "Quixtar" has no bearing on everything I said, I don't care if you shovel scum out of the gutters of the streets. The facts remain the same. I admire and respect the people that you wrote as follows: Of course the alleged "loser" category is filled with people like Bill Gates (software), Warren Buffett (investing), Trump (real estate), Bloomberg (financial news), Mother Theresa (charitable acts), Colin Powell (military).

Infact, they are strong leaders, and believe in what they are doing and don't let anyone like you steal their dream! Bill gates and Donald Trump, were laughed at when they saw their visions and dreams. Do you thingk they would be where they are at today if negative followers as yourself keep them down? Quixtar is one vehicle to finanial freedom and helping others. I dare you do quote me where I said there was nothing else outside of Quixtar. But, its ok to be wrong, don't worry about it, I forgive you. Because you don't know what you don't know.If you get out of your negative world Mr./Ms. Manipulator, you would understand what I wrote.

I would love to take the time to respond to everything else you were so excited and anxtious to quote and comment everything I wtote about. But if you can't read something without twisting it all around to have your followers agree with you and put you on a pedistal, than I can't wate my time on speaking logically with you. Why don't you watch the movie BRAVEHEART, I think you will lean alot about integrity, loyalty, wisdom, and what it is like to stand up for what you believe in, because if you don't than you may as well kiss your self goodby and call yourself someones slave. Well, as they say..."you can lead a hore to water, but you can't make him drink". I have to get ready to meet and show my 16th plan this month to an awesoem couple whom is very excited and asked me to meet with them to show them this awesome opportunity. Infact, I will contact and show 2-more by the end of friday for you. SO have great day! Oh and remember to "buckle-up and don't drink and drive" An that has nothing to do with Quixtar, I know you would love to falisfy a quote out of that saying that Quixtar said that!

"Quixtar" has no bearing on everything I said...

Oh. Sorry then. Somehow, I got the impression you were writing about Quixtar. My mistake.

I think you will lean alot about integrity, loyalty, wisdom, and what it is like to stand up for what you believe in...

Yes, I clearly have difficulty standing up for and speaking out about things I believe in... ;-)

because if you don't than you may as well kiss your self goodby and call yourself someones slave.

John, everybody is a slave to something or somebody else. The question is merely who or what you are enslaved to. The only way to stop being a slave to sin, evil is to be a slave to righteousness.

So what are you a slave to?

If you get out of your negative world Mr./Ms. Manipulator, you would understand what I wrote.

That would be a "Mister". :-)

Let's make a quick comparison: I do this for free, have my own business elsewhere, don't take a penny in support for this site, don't try to make people feel envious, guilty or scared, and I'm a manipulator.

You're selling a product, are you not? You're selling the Quixtar plan, are you not? You're in a position to make more money if many people think well of Quixtar, aren't you?

Who has something to gain here? Who's more likely to be saying something so they can make more $$$?

I'm more than happy to let the reader decide that for themselves.

I have to get ready to meet and show my 16th plan this month to an awesoem couple whom is very excited...

So will you make sure they know everything they'll need to know to make a fully informed decision? The positives and the negatives?

For example, will you tell them the total expected costs to stay "core"? (In my organization, it was about $5,000-$9,000 per year.) Will you tell them that there are far fewer millionaires, on average, in Quixtar than among the general population? Will you tell them "Quixtar" used to be known as "Amway"? Will you tell them, honestly, how much time you really put into doing this, or are you going to tell them it's 6-8 hours per week as so many do?

If you won't tell them these things -- so that they can make a decision based on all the available data, not just the stuff you want them to know -- then how can you tell yourself you're acting in their best interest rather your own?

Think of this as you talk to them.

When you give your presentation, will you give them arguments which are designed to make them feel things like envy, jealousy towards their boss, and fear -- like the ones you gave here -- when the bible clearly portrays these things as being against God's will?

Think of these things as you give your presentation to them.

Hey, don't worry about me. I'm just a guy with a blog. I've got no power over you other than the ability to write back when you say stuff.

But I know of something much better than Quixtar, which is available to you if you're interested in it. It can change your life waaaaay beyond what you could ever hope from Quixtar. Feel free to ask if you're interested in learning more.

God bless you, friend.

- Tim

Excellent analysis Tim.

As for John, it might be wise to let go of your apprehension and consider what Tim is talking about. Tim is being very logical and indeed has expressed an opinion that couldn't be further from truth. It is clear to me that he is more concerned with the system rather than with a personality dispute.

It is generally true that the United States has the hardest working workforce in the industrialized world. We work harder than any other country. That even includes Japan. The motive, for most of us, is just to earn a living. But for others it is also their way of being able to make a contribution to others, while at the same time being rewarded for their contribution.

There are more benefits to having a career than one might think. And, yes, it is hard work. But, as Tim pointed out, we are all slaves to our own mortality. In order to survive, we need to make the ground beneath the crops fertile and we need to go out and hunt for our steak.

Of course, mankind has attempted to simplify the process with systems, inventions and bureaucracies, and instead complicated our civilization with endless entropy. So as one of the results of this entropy, a lot of us are working for some CEO at some company. But some of us are also curing the sick, inspiring others with their talents, engineering roads for us to travel, risking their lives in the name of national defense, serving others meals, and so on, and so on.

Were everyone in the world involved with Quixtar, who would actually do the growing of the crops? Who is going to chop our steaks and distribute them to all people? Who will find medicines to heal the dying? Who will educate our young? Who will bring others to justice? Who will serve us hamburgers? Who will build our houses? Who will maintain our phone lines? Who will be able to give us gasoline?

Like any other system in mankind's fruitless attempt to free ourselves from our own mortality, Quixtar's MLM model is an attempt at making a system do all the work. Yet, for all the systems we have come up with, everyone forgets that we still depend on the crops grown out of the ground in order to survive.

Despite the many injustices in this world, work is still not just a reward, but it is a contribution to society. Quixtar, on the other hand, is an embracing of greed, and the contribution goes only to teaching others to look for the reward and neglect all other things. Not only is Quixtar not for everyone, but it is corrupt in its motives. And if we pretended that it was ethical, the entire world would ultimately self-destruct under its own selfishness.

I am posting in response to the fascinating dialogue between Tim and John.

John you absolutely amaze me. I have enjoyed reading your post. I truly have. Tim you are excellent as well.

You both are very strong in your convictions; whether or not you see the other's point of view - which you might but that was not discussed deeply in the post - you are each holding to your particular stance.

I would like to add some commentary relating to your post John. I believe it may be beneficial to think over some things carefully. I'm not saying you must, only that it might be to your benefit John.

When I quote your posting John, I will enclose the reference in brackets such as this: >>text I'm quoting

1 - You stated in your post the following:
>>Well...it's people like you who do NOT LISTEN and make what ever you want out of the situation. You apparently need to re-read what I have written, and change your assumptions to logical thinking if you can.

I will key on the words you used:
>>...change your assumptions to logical thinking...

What makes you believe that Tim was making assumptions and was not using logical thinking? I mean what proof, other than disagreement with opinions, do you have that he was not being logical? He may very well have been using logic that springs from a differing basis than to which you subscribe. Does differing on an opinion mean that someone is being illogical?

2 - I am now looking at the phrasing you employed in this particular section:
>>I don't care if you shovel scum out of the gutters of the streets. The facts remain the same.

I cannot help but wonder why you used that particular phrase:
>>shovel scum out of the gutters

I have approximately 10+ years of time involved with Amway & its newer sister corporation Quixtar. I have hundreds and hundreds of tapes/CDs from the AQMO (Amway Quixtar Motivational Organization) System I belong to, and I have been to the major and not so major functions. I have heard Crowns and Crown Ambassadors speak in public and in private settings. This is just so you know that I am not spouting from a lack of solid information.

That all being said, I would like to ask you why you used that particular phrasing? Is it a particular phrase you have always used, or could it be that you picked it up from the motivational tapes or from a speaker or maybe even from your upline? I am just curious.

Phrases like that seem to come from the AQMO organization speakers and its participants. I find that people who are an active part of these systems tend to use the phrases like this and 'parrot' what they hear. Maybe you are not doing this, but I am cannot help but question your reasons.

3 - You stated that these strong leaders didn’t: >>let anyone like you steal their dream!

Are you saying that it is possible for others to steal your dreams? I am frankly puzzled by your belief. I have never believed that another person can steal a dream. They may make you rethink something, but if the dream is something you have, how on this earth is it possible to steal something that is in your head? This concept you have indicated is most curious. I would offer you a differing way of looking at this idea. I want to look at the dream idea and use the trip analogy if you don't mind.

If say I am going to go to Disneyland for a vacation and my father thinks that the way I am traveling (such as the route I take, the speed I drive, the vehicle I am using, etc.) to Disneyland is not perhaps the best and he questions me about it or says that I am being wrong by going that way, I have a few choices in responding. I can get mad at him and accuse him of trying to take away my vacation, or I can simply ignore him and do what I want, or I can think about his critique and ask him for a better method of traveling.

I would say that calling people dream stealers gives them too much power, when what they usually are doing is questioning your method of traveling, rather than questioning your destination. It is not the best logic to mistake questioning of your method with trying to stop you from achieving your goal. After all the goal [dream], or end result, is what you are ultimately after, isn't it? More time with family, more money, etc. The method of getting there is what should be able to be questioned. Don't let others say your goals are bad, but be willing to accept advice on the method of attaining them.

4 - You stated:
>>than I can't wate my time on speaking logically with you.

John, in what way do you believe that you [spoke] logically with [Tim] in your first post or your second? How did you use logic, such as facts and truth, in your discussion? I fail to see the facts other than the 'parrot' talk you used and the attacks on Tim. Your response, as such as it was, did not lend itself to helping your case. What you did was to pseudo-flame Tim. You did not respond in a manner that would benefit others, nor, in my opinion, strengthen your case. Unfortunately the systems usually condone and promote, if in a stealth fashion at times, these sorts of methods of attack. Usually they prefer you to attack the person's intelligence or character or knowledge or whatever attribute you can come up with. The person who is being attacked is very rarely – please note I avoided saying ‘never’ – rebutted by a logical mind with a good grip on their reason for being in the business.

5 - You stated:
>>what it is like to stand up for what you believe in, because if you don't

I think that you need to rethink that one John. You just indicated that Tim was not standing up for what he believed in, and you also indicated that perhaps he did not know how nor knew what it was like. How arrogant of you! You have no way of knowing that Tim lacks anything in this regard.

Now, I am not saying you are not standing up for what you believe in, but you have no basis whatsoever to state, or insinuate, that Tim does not know what it is like to do so. Your statement was obviously not very well thought out, or maybe you planned to attack Tim in this manner. Not a very good showing for someone who has big dreams and wants to do the right thing and make a difference by building the business. This criticism should not have come into the discussion. If someone was attacking your standing up for what you believe in, then you would be up in arms. You would probably be offended.

Just remember, someone cannot steal what you do not let them. Also someone can question your methods, without questioning your goals. Confusing the two is not beneficial.

Cliff

I have read a few of the postings this morning and can appreciate the thoughtful comments charged with emotion.

Basically I really am looking for feedback without the accompanying rhetoric.

1st Question: Why can't this business, becoming a Active IBO be marketed to prospective new owners as what it is a "Business"? Which requires time, work, investment etc. It takes hard work to build anything, including a successful IBO. Much more than the 10 hours a week talked about.

2nd Question: I have searched the documentation and cannot still see how the money is divided through the lines of sponsors-sponsees. I guess simply the statement that those that work get the money--but what if I sponsor a successfull line of sponsees and they in turn sponsor thier lines how is the money trickle up two "uplines"? More importantly what is my incentive to still work at it if I am guaranteed money through my independent downlines?

That should be enough questions for now, please keep the feedback to the facts, not emotionally laced diatribes.

Thanks,
James Johnson

First I'd like to say that you have a very informative site here. I'm especially impressed with how you are open to allowing both pros and cons of a system be expessed.

I have never been approached by anyone representing Quixtar or Amway and only just stumbled on this site via a search for "Business Opportunity" using google. I read all of the threads leading to this one as will as those related to this one.

I have some questions that I hope you and maybe others could answer. I'd like to start with the comments you made to the letter starting this thread.

>>"that's what the business model predicts."

Could you direct me to a link or reference to where I can find this perdiction?

>>"Yes indeed, condecension is a great sales technique."

I'm not sure how to take this statement. Does two wrongs make a right?

>>"The intent here is to make the reader or listener resentful. The goal with these kinds of arguments is to make them angry that someone else is making more money than they are, to trigger envy. To make the person unhappy (not thankful) for what they have, and make them start to violate the commandment that one should not covet what other people have"

When I was in high school my best buddy's father owned a trailer park and a couple of apartment houses. I still remember his father telling us "You can't get rich working for someone else."
Was I coveting (being sinful) to believe him and want financial independence (success) in my life?

>>"We can't be happy unless we make more than someone else does? Bad kind of thinking! In truth, you can do quite well by making others do even better -- real business is often a win-win position"

I agree, however how did you get this from the other persons quote? Also from what I've read here on your site that Quixtar is about "making others do ... better" thus a win-win real buisness. Am I wrong? please explain if I'm not.

>>"Quixtar is nothing like owning a real business: In a real business you make your money from this little external entity called the customer. In Quixtar, most the money comes from inside. That should be a huge tip-off to you that something's not right."

I own a buisness, yet I am also a customer of my suppliers (they make money). I buy parts that keep my buisness running and suppling product to my customers (I make money). Please explain what's not right about this?

>>"I'd rather see their balance sheet, and an open statement of where the money is going, with proven, audited records which demonstrate that the average participant previously made, not lost, money"

Am I to understand that what you are saying is that no buisness should be without risk? I'm sure you know that better than 95% of the buisnesses started in this country fail within the first five years of operation. Whould it be safe to say that if one were to try this buisness with true effort that it too would fail within the first five years? Can someone who has been trully working the Quixtar system for five years tell me the success rate after that amount of time and effort? Are they still losing money or are they making money? Or are have they moved on to something better?

From all that I have read here I am inclined to try and find an IBO in my area and get involved in this buisness system for at least one to five years. I understand that rewards do not come without risk.

Also I'd be interested (as would many of the other readers here) in hearing more about "I know of something much better than Quixtar".

Thanks again Tim for a very informative site.

Sincerly,

5e3stuff

5e3stuff,

Regarding "that's what the business model predicts", you wrote:

Could you direct me to a link or reference to where I can find this perdiction?

"The Plan" part of Quixtar works by transferring wealth from newer, "bottom" IBOs and customers to those "upline" IBOs in before them.

Lacking an infinite supply of potential new converts, this process breaks down. When this happens, some at the bottom will not see the return on their invested they expected. Not because they didn't try hard enough, but because there are not an infinite number of new converts availble, in the time frame needed to "the plan" profitable.

Thank you Tim for your response I understand your position better now. I discussed this with my daughter of 15 years and even she asked the question "Doesn't it get harder and harder for new IBO's to sell as less and less people have NOT seen the plan." I probably will pass on this so called oportunity.

Thanks again for your thoughtfull opinions.

5e3stuff

As a future Quixtar IBO I just want to comment on both Tim and 5e3stuff. I feel that both arguments are valid for your own reasons but the fact about getting into and becoming a Quixtar IBO is very inexpensive ($125) and the risks are few. The biggest risk is losing $125 if you don't follow through with "The Plan". And any unethical behaviour on the part of IBO's trying to "sell" the Plan to future Quixtar IBO's is purely on their consiousness, their desire to be dishonost to get ahead in Quixtar to make more money. But the bottom line is that it's as simple as redirecting your purchase power to the internet and not Walmart or Costco. The fact that Tim is trying to say that this will be hurtfull to the "downline" is pretty rediculous. Why hurtfull? It's my investment and my decision to get in. I know that I'll be making money off of those downline from me in the future and I also understand that I will be making money for those above me. But the fact is that the companies like Goodyear Tires, KB Toys and OfficeMax (just to name a few of the hundreds) have signed up with Quixtar because they are willing to pass the marketing/utilities/insurance/etc. savings onto the IBO instead of putting into the actual "mortar and brick" that they have in the past. Noone loses. And if they do, it's a meager $125. Not a whole lot, unless you're so dirt poor that that's all you had in order to start a dream, but with no ambition to follow through with the plan. There is nothing saying that you have to quit your job to do this, either, it's in addition to it in the beginning. So you make of it what you want. Nothing comes for free.
The internet is the future, unless you really haven't been watching the global trends. It's easy and safe to buy online. Why not make a vehicle that helps the purshaser and the seller, which at the same time passes the saving back to the purchaser just by shopping through a particular portal (Quixtar). I understand it. And IF I ever wanted out...I quit. Nothing lost. But saying that it will hurt others is wrong. If it was so hurtful to others in the downline, there would be a lot of complaints to the better business bureau...the fact is that there are very few. Look it up for yourself.
In closing...my wife and I are excited about the earning potential of this business. We want to try because there is little risk and it grants us the opportunity to start a family and to stay at home with our family and watch them grow...not go to work and then pick them up from day-care to spend a few hours with them in the evening. NOT our cup of tea. We want to raise our family, not have the day-care worker do it for us. Just our view. See it as negitively as you want, Tim, but do you personally know anyone who has been "hurt" by Quixtar? Just asking.

-John F.

Just a response to the posting by John F.

I, too, have been researching the merits of Quixtar and have been called a couple times by an IBO seeking to enlist me. He gave me a sort of canned presentation, answered a few questions I had and gave me a CD or two to listen to.

Now, the next step is he and his wife want to come to our home and go through the "presentation". (Why his wife too?)

My work involves business analysis for mergers and acquisitions. It is data driven. I go for the facts, weigh the sensitivities about things that are unsure and try to make logical conclusions about "buy" or "pass" on opportunities.

I have to say that this opportunity stumps me. Looking into the workings of private companies is never easy, and this organization is certainly private. There are none of the elements of transparency one would have in a public company. There seem, from this string and many others on the web, to be widely differing opinions on how this works.

In my observation, most of those favoring getting into this organization make decisions based on the kinds of statements that John F. makes above. There are good solid reasons for getting in.... it doesn't cost much, I can buy at reduced prices, I can spend more time with my family, I don't have to work too hard for it, etc. And there are many more. What I'm missing is the actual data. Where are the numbers? Why do I have to buy for myself to get PV? Can a business be sound if, in the first presentation of it, you are shown that part of your profit is on your own purchases? If I look at the prices that are charged and I compare them to true street prices, you could do better not buying through Quixtar. And you certainly wouldn't be tempted to consume for yourself those items you wouldn't have bought otherwise, just to be building business volume for your "business". The logic seems screwy to me, but it's cleverly woven together with a lot of emotion.

I admit to having been somewhat swept up by the emotion of the speaker in the CDs I've listened to. However, it sounds so much to me like hype that I, personally, just can't go there. I'm going to tell my "potential sponsor" that he and his wife shouldn't bother to come by. The more I think about it, the more turned off I become.

I hope you make the right decision. My advice would be simply to do the research. If you don't find some hard data supporting a business plan (and don't get carried away by emotion), then I'd be sceptical.

Bill

John F.,

First, you're right -- the mere act of becoming a Quixar IBO is inexpensive. But part of the beauty of Quixtar is it leads people to seductively understimate costs, exactly as you just did.

I observed that my upline's sponsor, though she claimed to be only spending 8-10 hours a week, must have been spending most of her time working at Quixtar. (And her husband worked to support her so she was probably near full time, if not over.) Even if you only estimate 8-10 hours a week, that works out to a whopping 520 hours per year, or about 13 full work weeks. If you could earn $40k a year, that's about $10,000. Even at minimum wage, that's around $4,000 in lost cash for the same amount of work for one person.

Again, this is a conservative estimate. It doesn't count time spent on conferences, and my own sponsors seemed to be spending much more time than that on a weekly basis.

Now -- though your mileage may vary, there's the various things your upline will want you to do to remain "core" -- in my org, the sign-up was $200, not $125, but included a bunch of "free" product. Add $180-$360 a year for the voice mail they wanted me to get. Also four conferences -- about $100 each, with $200-$500 travel expenses... let's just call it 4 times $400 ($1,600). Then, they want you to get "standing order" for tapes -- for me, this would have been $400 per year. Next come the periodicals. My sponsor, who I would have been expected to model myself after, had been encouaged by her upline to subscribe to four of them at $20 each = $80 annually. Then there was the book of the month, which one is also expected to subscribe to, and that will run about $144 anually. In total, we're looking here at about $2,000 - $3,200 for signup and tools.

Still with me?

Next comes the product consumption. But you'd buy all that stuff anyway, right?

In 1996, the average IBO "earned" $88 dollars per month in bonuses. Of course, this isn't new wealth at all since it came out of increased product costs already paid by themselves or (more likely) another IBO. So there's at least $88 per month (perhaps more now, in 2004) markup, probably more to pay the various diamond bonsus and probably still more for Quixtar. Being conservative again, that means you're paying at least $1,200 extra in product costs annually.

Of course, there are other costs too -- all products bought through Quixtar are shipped -- even those like clothes and food which you'd seldom ship in small quantities. These costs are undoubtedly significant, but I'm being lazy and conservative, so I'll give them a pass.

Next is the question of whether you'd actually buy that much stuff anyway. If you have three kids, this might make sense for you. For me, it definitely didn't. Then there's also the matter of whether self-purchasing is going on -- where you buy more product than you need in order to keep up your PV/BV. I hear reports this is now starting to happen in Quixtar, as it did in Amway before the collapse, so that can increase your costs if you end up doing that -- think of it as a kind of donation to keep playing the game.

These are all the factors which I considered when I was approached, just as you were, regarding this "opportunity". Some people think if they work very hard for a year and receive nothing they're not "out anything"... I don't. I think when you're working, you should receive a return for that.

So, whether this is good or bad, we're looking at a sizeable investment... conservatively about $3,200 in actual invested cash per year, and $4,000 is opportunity costs if you're going to be "core". That's $7,200. Take less "conservative" assumptions -- higher markup (undoubtedly!), self-purchasing (sometimes), shipping costs (I've ignored them!), going a bit nuts and buying a lot of "tools" at the conference (as people tend to), and higher potential income than minimum wage, and you easily start to move into the $10,000-20,000 range.

And, in my experience, it takes people who are going to try to be dedicated at least years or more to get out of it, when they do. So multiply that annual investment by however long you'd like to decide to try doing Quixtar as your minimum time period.

Do the math and see how it works for you. All ethical issues aside, I can't possibly see how someone could get into a business like this without at least doing some of the research I mention above.

But hey, its sold seductively -- you'll have to drag these costs out of them -- and they often low-ball them if you don't corner them and watch what they do, not what they say. But once, you're in, there's pressure to do it the "right" way.

Next comes your statement which touches on the ethical issues, to effect of: It's just like buying all your products from Walmart or the Internet! No, John, it's nothing like that. Please re-read my explanation to 5e3stuff above. The "pyramidal" or "matrix" wealth transfer is nothing like Wal-Mart or the Internet. In fact, it's nothing like business at all, as most people think of it.

This post is just one in a series. You might consider clicking on the "Quixtar" topic (to the left) and reading some of the related articles or at least following the links I gave 5e3stuff.

They way you phrase your response, that I can be as "negative" as I "want to be" may be misleading you -- I didn't set out to be "negative" towards this opportunity, and more positive towards others. I was approached just as you were. But in the end, I decided it wasn't profitable for the average IBO, and that IBO's got ahead by screwing other IBOs, and that my participation, even if I were to benefit, would not be moral, by my lights. If you don' share even this minimal ethical rule with me, then I'd at least tell you to look at the expected investement and returns, out of at least simple greed.

I may be wrong, but I find it very intersting that folks selling Quixtar don't debate on the facts, instead they just seem unhappy that I'm telling what I've learned at all. That's not a good sign. Yet I'm simply putting my own experiences out there in hopes others might benefit by seeing the rest of the picture Quixtar leaves out.

Bingo, Tim (re: your 4/25/05 1:54 post).

One more thing could be said... If one does get caught up in the "flow" and commits to the meetings, the voice mails, the tapes, the books, the ... on and on ..., they are going to be much more inclined to self convince that it's the right thing to do (otherwise why would I be investing so much time and money in it?) Rather circular argumentation. More like a maelstrom, sucking energy and money away with the hope/dream of getting it back several times over.

I'm not often inclined to use the word "cult", but there are striking similarities in what I read in the comments on this site and the nature of some cults. Even when the evidence stacks against an aspiring IBO (not making as much as he/she thought; taking much more time than originally envisioned; buying one's own PV/BV up in stuff they may not really have otherwise bought; using and giving pat answers that one didn't think made sense when they first heard them but which now freely flow from one's own lips) the system seems to have them somehow just accept it all, sheep like, and continue to perpetuate some invisible momentum. I fear for those who are not financially stable enough or sufficiently logic-oriented to yield to the attractive but hollow belief that prosperity is (always) just around the corner.

For my money, being well informed about "both" sides of the question to become/or not/ an IBO has led me to a much more informed decision (and for me, it's NOT).

By the way, I thought your examples using $ and cents were superbly crafted.

Bill

Why are people so confused?

Amway (intl. company 80+ countries & territories)

Quixtar
(North American Company web-based using I-commerce and networked with fortune 500 companies. Ranked Highly online for revenue, and profits. 2nd behind Amazon.com

!Wait I think they might be the same, they both have people?

Duh, all businesses have similarities but legally and fully these are separate companies. Are people that slow or maybe they can't read the facts?

Alticor.com is their Parent Company of these 2 very separate companies.

!But wait aren't there X-amway distributors that are Now Quixtar affiliated IBO's!?!

Duh, because of their success and connections with the sister company they were able to transfer to Quixtar.com in 1999 if they wanted to start a NEW way of doing business on the web. Allowing people to point and click, NOT go door 2 door. It was a whole new company built by Microsoft and IBM.

There are X-Mary Kay Distributors, and Fuller Brush reps. and Grammy Award winners, and Doctors, and Lawyers and successful people from all kinds of backgrounds that use Quixtar.com as a way to make more income on top of their career.

Last time I checked similar and the same were two different words.

Just a few things to think about...

What do credible sources say about Quixtar.com
Business 2.0 magazine, NY Times, Microsoft?

As you research are you gathering opinions or facts?

How many people have you interviewed that have failed in the industry?
How many people have you interviewed making over 50K, 100K, or 200K Plus?

If they don't do advertising and instead they pay Independent Business Owners (IBO's) to get the word out about the site, how did they do over a billion in revenue without IBO's making money?
[Hint: IBO's were paid over 300 million in profits and bonuses late year.]

If like in all industries some people succeed with the business model and some fail.
Is it yourself image that makes you think you are going to fail or bad advice?

Maybe you are better then you think, and maybe there is more out there for you?

With the buy back guarantee on most products and information purchased what is the real risk? Wouldn’t those investments be a tax deduction anyway? Don’t you get products at wholesale and discounts too?

How does Quixtar, Alticor and Access Business Group rank compared to other companies financially? If I just know about Quixtar.com but don’t’ understand Alticor do I really understand much at all?

Did Quixtar IBO’s make more Profits in 2002 then Every Starbucks Combined around the World? (250mvs215m)

Would ongoing income help me control my Time as well as my money?

Why is the BBB Crest on the Quixtar.com Homepage if it is scam?

Is it true that the CEO of Alticor also sat as the chairman of the board for the United States Chamber of Commerce? (2002)

Can you just work your career for the rest of your life and "make it" by age 65? According to the social security administration the answer is NO. You don't have to work with Quixtar but you might want to have an open mind and consider your options.

nwyouth,

Why are people so confused? ...
Last time I checked similar and the same were two different words.

Last time I checked, nobody here had said Quixtar and Amway were "the same" company. So what are you responding to?

I love your line of reasoning! By your own words:

• Same parent company
• Parent company transferred IBOs from one to the other
• Parent company actively controls both companies
• Many of the same people involved in each
• Same business practices

Thus ... what? Hilarious!

Look, if Amway sucked, and all of what you say is true, then it's not clear to me why Quixtar shouldn't suck in the same fashion. Likewise if Amway was the greatest thing ever.

Of course, if Amway was the greatest thing ever, one wonders it's no longer active in the US, eh?

Quixtar / Amway / Alticor just a great company trying to make the world a better place. If you want to get rich without work this is not for you. play the lotto.

"See", the problem with "quoting" off "a" forum is that you are assuming "the" guy you are "quoting" is an expert on the "subject" (in this case "Quixtar") we have no idea if "he" has even taken the time "to" sign-up a "client".
(it helps to wiggle the double fingers up while your reading above)
So quoting some guy here is like quoting Colon Powell on the subject of golf because both him and Tiger are black so obviously Colon Powell knows as much as Tiger about golf. Just because someone has signed the registration form for a Quixtar membership doesn’t mean they are an expert.
And that brings me to the main point, Mr. "quote" is definitely not an expert on teaching people how to supplement income on a part time basis. Quixtar’s publicity is from the underlining problem: people are looking for a way to supplement their money earned to time-spent ratio. "Quote" guy can’t help them, however "Quote" posts here without ever saying how he's doing in these areas (more month than money, causing heart disease to be the number 1 killer from stress) of his "quote" life?
"quote" guy, first and foremost you have nothing to offer, secondly without people out their presenting Quixtar no one would read these chat-posts anyway. Those people are the ones doing work; you just lazily sit at your computer. That’s the real problem here isn’t it, if Quixtar works then your desire to eliminate money stress from your own life is at the end of your own arm and your too lazy to accept that so you must try to stop as many people as possible so you can continue to believe you have no choice in the life your currently living. If you’re so smart about Quixtar and supplementing your income why did a guy in Michigan go Diamond in 18 months in 2002? He knows a little bit a supplementing income.
The people I work with would actually help you make a couple thousand a month. Aunt and Uncle did, Sister and Brother-in-law did. They are Platinum’s and Ruby’s so their income has nothing to do with tools either. So how about that? How are quotes going to get anyone past the fact that many people are relieving the stress in their lives through supplementing their incomes in Quixtar?
See quotes don’t do anything, and making posts on these sites doesn’t stop people’s desire to eliminate money stress. Well, at least I hope I am helping those of you reading this to look to someone that doesn’t fight about money every week, with their wife like this “Quote” guy does, for your income advice.
So my final statement will be that those of you reading this should understand that any one for Quixtar on these things isn’t necessarily an expert and those against just want to try and prove it doesn’t work so that they can blame everyone else for their own debt and stressful lives (you know how the ladies get, no matter how much mr. “quote” tries to reason he still has to try and convince the ole wife and you know she isn’t buying it so he tries to come on here and hone his arguing skills so he can justify to her that he should stay on the dart team down at the local bar rather than offer his children an ivy league college education)
They have nothing to offer you, so before you listen you should make them show you a profile of their daily lives. The point: “How many of you are just totally excited, I mean you are just pumped, for your kids to do what you do?”-Brad D. Triple Diamond
Ask yourself these questions: How about that guy in Michigan that went Diamond in 18 months, or what if this guy in this short story really does have an aunt and sister that have both went Platinum and Ruby respectively and are simply making a couple thousand a month?
One more thing “quote” guy should ask himself: If he knows something is so wrong with Quixtar why don’t he just sue, I mean America holds 60% of the worlds lawyers in its 8% of world population, I know you would be able to find someone.
Why did Quixtar do over 1 billion in sales in north America last year without getting sued out of business if what all these “Quixtar Blog” guys are saying is true, I mean we aren’t in a suing or lawyer lacking society.
Its like the guys trying to sue McDs for themselves being fat, you see they are too lazy to practice a little self restraint or exercise so they might as well sue for some free money.

HA,

I like the guy that tells you to play the lotto. I think is funny when these "Quixtar Blog" guys try to reason; they throw every arguement in the book about why making money doesn't make a difference in relieving stress in the lives of people yet they are the will totally be the first ones that buy a lotto ticket or send in the Ed McMann clearing house letter.
I can see it now "God please help me win and I will give half to build down at the local ministry of children....well maybe 1/4 because the children growup so fast that I will need the money to update it later...ok, ok 10% because really children don't need money they spell love TIME....your right God if you didn't want me to have it all then you would allow me to win free money so I will keep it ALL if win"
"Quixtar Blog" guys only like money when its free because they are lazy as a piece of poop.

Ah yes, we have the personal invective. The rambling points. The false tests. (Unless a business gets sued, it must be a great opportunity for you!)

The truth is there's nothing illegal (in the US, anyway) about what Quixtar is doing, it's simply unethical. Consider gambling: It's legal too. But if someone said: "Don't gamble! Your odds of winning are very low!' and someone responded by saying:

* "If gambling is so bad, how come one person, someone, once won a lot of money? Huh? What about that? Huh?"

* "If gambling is so bad, how come nobody is suing the casinos?"

The answer is simple: Not everything which is immoral, unethical, or merely a bad investment, is illegal.

And it's not Quixtar that's the problem anyway -- the problem is really with the surrounding groups which push "the plan".

Tim,

Bull's eye, every single point I made to you. That’s why you avoid everything in the message.
Your in debt, fight about money, totally stressed out, boss lies to you about promotion, lease your car, complain about the gas prices, but yet you expect people to come on here and read your messages like your an expert on supplementing income.
Supplementing income is the only reason why people investigate Quixtar, to get away from those stresses through creating a couple thousand a month. Yet if you did more than hide behind your computer and show these folks your profile everyone would realize your in worse shape than them in all the situations listed above and they would be a moron to listen to your opinion on money. The people I work with lend a hand out and come into your life and help when they are asked. And if you don't buy the CDs they burn your house down and kill your children, oh wait I guess the tools are optional and nobody does anything more than suggest you learn how to supplement your income from those who know how to supplement income if that is what you are interested in. There is a 10 second disclaimer at the end of every CD that says they are optional and you can return them and quit buying them at any time. So I mean if you want to blame McDs for being fat, now’s your chance because we live in a time when it is ok to place the blame on everything but your own laziness and get some free money.
Free money that’s what its all about, that’s why your mind directly goes to gambling, because its the hope of free money. The lotto, just another way the government can get taxes, but the hope of free money.
Quixtar isn't free money, that’s why it brings criticism upon itself. Sorry I am not smart enough to fit in a word other than criticism, because clearly that must be the qualifier to teach people how to supplement their income because you used it and you know everything.
I have never once bought a lotto ticket in my entire life and I played a quarter machine once in Vegas and won 10 bucks and left because I knew that I had done better than 90% of the people in the house. I earn money, I don't win it. I don’t know a lot about gambling, but I bet you do because you like FREE money.
If you know so much Tim, just sue Quixtar. I know you don’t have any money but you will be able to find a lawyer that would just take their fee from the winnings.
Clearly you are enlightening people with your in depth knowledge of business so you should go straighten out those measly billion dollar distribution business Quixtar people.
If you wait long enough, which I know waiting is what you do best, you will be able to sue others for your own laziness. Look at the McDs situation, the world is becoming full of you people can’t understand that going at buying a hamburger is simply a choice.

Have a great one Tim, at the very least I am allowing you to hone your skills to take on your wife tonight when she starts crying because you can’t afford to do anything fun over this THREE DAY WEEKEND, us job guys live for one extra day of freedom. YAHOO!!

Its funny because the majority of people that come on here are men trying to justify why they aren’t building a future of less stress for their families. Guys, the ladies aren’t going to buy any excuse and argument you throw at them, when there is no money in the account there is a serious problem brewing with shorty, she will kick your butt no matter what you learn off these sites.

Stick to people who can teach you to supplement your income if any of your money problems are bothering you and you got the guts to do something about it because Tim and other blog guys have more money stress than you do. That’s why they work so hard to justify, the wife is kicking their butt every night. And you don’t even have to “bet” on it, right Tim, because if you could look at Blog guys lives it would be a guarantee.

I have a future to build so I won’t be coming back this site.(I met with someone tues, 2 people on wed, one last night, and someone tonight).
I slashed their tires when they didn’t by a CD from me, come on get real ;>)

Sorry Tim, you got a lot to learn.

I just wonder why "Quixtar is Fine" assumes that Tim has no money (have you seen his bank account), has an awful boss (I thought he was self-employed), is stressed (are you his shrink? does he even have a shrink?, is part of the overweight kids suing McDonalds (was he one of the plantiffs?), knows everything (is he God?), etc. Tim is just a guy with his own blog talking about what he believes in, from his own experience and those of the people he knows. If you want to prove that Quixtar is fine, then provide facts, but don't attack the messenger. I'm happy with my J-O-B doing research in something that may or may not make the world a better place. Does that make me a loser? Guess so...

I was just wondering if anyone has information on Quixtar's not so hot business practices? I used to be an IBO with Amway, way back when, and was tainted by some of their ideas then. You see, I want not generalities, but real things I can point at... sales vs. points, cost of products, not researching product information prior to putting it on the market, etc.

"To Annie", I've read your posts with amusement. They are poorly constructed and you sound frightfully brainwashed. I personally don't think Quixtar is quite as bad as Tim claims, but even from my outsider perspective it's very clear that Quixtar and other such organizations have little to offer to lower ends of their pyramids.

I personally don't think Quixtar is quite as bad as Tim claims...

This comment strikes me as being odd.

After all, it's not like I'm saying Quixtar is the leading cause of slow, painful death in North America. Nor do I say Quixtar will cause malignant melanomas, nor do I claim it will track you down, kill you, and then start to go after your extended family!

The conclusion I drew about Quixtar is simply that (a) most people will put a lot of work in and make far below minimum wage (and of course, usually aren't told this), and (b) the person you sign up will always have it worse than you, and so on... each time more will fail, not to lack of (comparative) effort, but due to depleted IBO prospects. That's an unethical situation, to my way of thinking.

What am I exaggerating?

Regarding comments from "To Annie", aka "Quixtar is Fine", aka "I agree", aka "Socrates" from "The Quixtar Blog"...

Indeed, what he says is true. I'm just a guy who attended a single Quixtar meeting, and posted a few (two at the time) comments regarding my experience. Quixtar-related discussion less than 1% of the content of this blog.

Indeed, I'm no expert and don't claim to be.

"To Annie", on the other hand, seems positively obsessed, and posted dozens of comments on a few threads, the space of about two weeks, writing the same arguments over and over (Quixtar is good because people look into it; Nutralife is great; Quixtar isn't sued, therefore it is good), often creating fake conservations with himself under a variety of names, all in an attempt to (apparently) create positive spin for Quixtar, and usually cutting me down at the same time, saying I'm a loser, and "hate my boss" and that I have fights with my wife over money, etc.

Apparently, even a blogger who goes to one meeting and dares to post a few comments about what he learned or thought about this business cannot be safe from these folks, some of whom apparently want to shut or flood any such discussion forums.

Scary.

the one ibo whose writing is in red has no posture. in my upline i am not sponsored or mentored to act or behave like him. i feel being a loser is a state of mind or should i say the fact that he is calling anybody aloser who is not with quixtar is actually taking his own inventory and he is pointing three fingers back at hisself for judging others that way. to me a winner is someone who is happy with himself. you need to lighten up ibo and get some posture. quixtar cant fix anybody nor is any of the kingpins or dexter yager god. nor is my diamonds mentors or sponsors. im a new ibo and i am not worried about anybody stealing my dreams or ripping me off cuz what goes around comes around. im am 100% positive alot of other ibo's feel the same. so i dont lose sleep at night. i hope you dont.

another thing i wanted to post was i have'nt heard at any seminar or open meeting ive been to yet since march of this year any hate or name calling to any one who isnt quixtar anything. if i do it will be posted and i will drop names and expose any frauds who i come in contact with and i will post it all on the www :)and i will confront them openly. im not afraid. so if anyone want's to here more about the good quixtar can do e-mail me. i believe that life should not be a journey to the grave w/on intention of arriving safely in a pretty well preserved body but rather to skid in broadside thorouly used up totally worn out and loudly proclaiming WOW WHAT A RIDE

Let’s assume Tim is a bad egoistic devil. Does it make Quixtar profitable for MAJORITY? Does it make a diamond ship at whole profitable? A closed self consumption buying club with tool / system topping is destined to be a negative pyramid. Just mathematics. No rocket science. Few tops will make money. YES. But how? By a lot of others losing money. As simple as that. Where else their money comes from exactly? Retail is very less, as item are consumed by Loyal brainwashed IBOs. Try retailing at RETAIL price.

I quit my business not because of the 'negativity' on internet. I watched my bottom line. I was losing money month after month. So were many other ppl, as simple as that. Oh wait, didn't Rich Devos, owner and co-founder said so in 1983 in directly speaking tapes? Didn't Quixtar own internet postma memo said something 'negative' about tools?

Forget Tim, let’s fight with logic and mathematics of Quixtar Plan, shall we?

Ah, Imran, but you forget: He attacks me, personally, simply because he has nothing convincing to say about the logic or data per se. Ad hominem attack are all he has. He's not going to abandon that and debate Quixtar on the merits just because you ask him to.

The aformentioned anonymous (coward) poster, whom I'll call "Socrates", was banned because primarily because (a) he posted a flurry of responses under multiple names, pretending to be a group of people (strangely, all being pro-Quixtar IBOs who had a deep personal grudge against me), (b) resorts primarily to ad hominem arguments, and (c) was incapable of acknowleding when people responded to his arguments, endlessly repeating them as if no one had taken the time to answer him.

This is just one more such comment, in which he pretends I never address the inherant nature of the business, only my specific experience. It's one of his about 3-4 arguments, and it's been answered endlessly (just click on the "Quixtar" topic and decide for yourself), and there's no point in repeating that stupid cycle another eight or nine times.

You can't get him to focus on Quixtar by asking him to. It's the one thing he most certainly doesn't actualy want to do.

All three of these banned tactics (above) are profoundly disrespectful of others in this community. I've go not time for that kind of nonsense here. It bores me, and it sure as heck will bore the readers too.

In the kingdom of the blind, there's a one-eyed man...

My skin actually crawls when I see you where you people typed it out: "The Business"

Creepy.

Great exposure, Tim. Keep it up!

This business called Quixtar is just a scam for those who get sucked into the lower portion of the pyramid. The truth is that becoming an IBO as an affiliate with Quixtar is not all its cracked up to be. Anyone ever heard if something seems too good to be true, it probably is? I had an old friend from high school contact me about becoming an IBO. I had a few meetings with him and the were all the same, he gave minimal facts, only to tell me we would meet again to discuss more. He didnt mention "Quixtar" til the third meeting when I asked the name, and finally I asked him the start up costs to be an IBO. Only then he told me. I knew there had to be some catch, some scheme that future prospects are told about. Finally I did some investigating on my own and discovered that there are initial costs, renewal fews, and most of the money that is taken from you or money you obtain is transfered to the upline.

I just read through the first part of the page, not the comments. There is nothing in there that describes the techniques these people use to make you feel like a "winner". Already being in two of these meetings, the people are trying to be most positive about the business. The first meeting, a family member being my host, gave out samples. This person could not stop talking about it every time he was over. I finally told him to shut up. The second person, a friend, who once again hosted me (he was not sure if it was quixtar), and the people made the meeting a lot more interesting. They did not discuss any part of the ordering portal or biznet. But I guess it is quixtar because of XS products. The nine steps to success included two steps that required people to listen to tapes and read books. I checked on the site and looked around for products. The one laser printer was only $300; the best price I could find anywhere. Most of the other products were insanely overpriced. The XS protein drink averaged to $3.00 a bottle. You can get the same nutrition from a mix which lasts a lot longer. The TV dinners are 6 for ~$23.00 Who in their right minds would pay $3.88 for a TV dinner? They are main dishes with no sides. I guess if it was a few pounds of it per dinner, it would not be too bad, but it was not stated on the site. For all of their associations with various companies, they are only getting products people do not want. All I saw on there were celerons and pentium IIIs for computers. V-neck sweaters were sold for $39.99. This section is always discounted in my local retail stores (about $30.00). The polo-shirts are the same price as most retail stores when they do not have a sale, but I would think the retail stores would have more selections (quixtar has blue, green, yellow). I THINK all these "partner" companies are only using quixtar to get rid of products that do not sell. I have not looked into the partner sites, since I cannot get into it. If someone knows more about this please reply another post or something.

Why is my post gone? Perhaps the truth was out? Lets try again. Quixtar uplines gain most of their money from tapes, videos, books, and seminars. The site contains expensive items such as the TV dinner (6 for 23?)(there better be at least a pound of food for that price). All of their partnership products are things no one wants to buy. Example: V-neck sweater, no one wants them.

Why is my post gone? Perhaps the truth was out?

Dude, tone down conspiracy theory. I'm posting here over a year and a half (That long!) and none of my post ever 'disappeared'. Once edited for profanity, but thats it.

I don't see any reason Tim would do that. He himself sees Quixtar for what it is, a scam. Blog rules apply. If your post violated the blog rule, then it is your fault. If it was original, then there is not reason.

REst I agree. Quixtar is a scam and only retards buy V-neck now. Even cricket players don't buy them.

Why is my post gone? Perhaps the truth was out?

I have no idea: I don't recall having deleted any posts from the Quixtar discussion threads in quite a long time. Perhaps something went wrong on the submitting end?

Nevermind it was not deleted. I scrolled down to the bottom of the comments and my message was not there, therefore I suspected someone deleted it. After reposting the new post, the old one showed up. I guess it had something to do with opening the link from my favorites. My apologies.

Quixscam wrote "This business called Quixtar is just a scam for those who get sucked into the lower portion of the pyramid. The truth is that becoming an IBO as an affiliate with Quixtar is not all its cracked up to be. Anyone ever heard if something seems too good to be true, it probably is? I had an old friend from high school contact me about becoming an IBO. I had a few meetings with him and the were all the same, he gave minimal facts, only to tell me we would meet again to discuss more. He didnt mention "Quixtar" til the third meeting when I asked the name, and finally I asked him the start up costs to be an IBO. Only then he told me. I knew there had to be some catch, some scheme that future prospects are told about. Finally I did some investigating on my own and discovered that there are initial costs, renewal fews, and most of the money that is taken from you or money you obtain is transfered to the upline."

Joe says :)

Quixtar is fine wrote: Its funny because the majority of people that come on here are men trying to justify why they aren’t building a future of less stress for their families. Guys, the ladies aren’t going to buy any excuse and argument you throw at them, when there is no money in the account there is a serious problem brewing with shorty, she will kick your butt no matter what you learn off these sites.

Joe says: How is spending $300 a month on overpriced products and another $200 a month on tapes books and seminars going to get you into a better financial situation?

Quixtar is fine wrote: Have a great one Tim, at the very least I am allowing you to hone your skills to take on your wife tonight when she starts crying because you can’t afford to do anything fun over this THREE DAY WEEKEND, us job guys live for one extra day of freedom. YAHOO!!

Its funny because the majority of people that come on here are men trying to justify why they aren’t building a future of less stress for their families. Guys, the ladies aren’t going to buy any excuse and argument you throw at them, when there is no money in the account there is a serious problem brewing with shorty, she will kick your butt no matter what you learn off these sites.

Stick to people who can teach you to supplement your income if any of your money problems are bothering you and you got the guts to do something about it because Tim and other blog guys have more money stress than you do. That’s why they work so hard to justify, the wife is kicking their butt every night. And you don’t even have to “bet” on it, right Tim, because if you could look at Blog guys lives it would be a guarantee.

I have a future to build so I won’t be coming back this site.(I met with someone tues, 2 people on wed, one last night, and someone tonight).

Joe says: No wonder quixtar has a bad reputation.