Quixtar Generates No Wealth
Quixtar
| September 1, 2004
| Tim
Recently, I've been thinking about Quixtar because of certain comments posted by yet another IBO. Which brought something to mind, something I think I've never explained clearly in an article:
The net effect of Quixtar is that it generates no wealth. Instead, overall, it makes the world a "worse" place to be, economically.
I say this not because I tend to think about Quixtar a lot, but because I had to explain to myself why (or why not) you couldn't create wealth using government programs, FDR-style. The same arguments apply.
Why This Matters
If you tend to think in selfish terms, and you want to do what works for you regardless of whether or not it helps or hurts others, this may not matter at all to you. Frankly, the odds are low that you'll be one of the successful Quixtar IBOs, but if you think you are lucky enough to be one of the few "winners", and you won't care if you hurt others, then there is nothing I can say to dissuade you, other than perhaps warn you: probably everyone else also thinks they'll be that winner, not you.
But if you have some kind of ethical or moral code which says you shouldn't do things which may help you, but will definitely harm most others, then this kind of "overall" analysis is important to that decision.
Think of wealth as a pie. Some kinds of economic activity make that pie larger. Despite what many Quixtar IBOs will tell you, most jobs work like this. As we work we create or improve things or provide wanted services, and collectively, everybody gets wealthier. (If you have trouble seeing or believing this, I'll provide an example below.)
In such a system, we don't necessarily mind if a guy has a bigger slice: If his slice is as wide as two of ours, when the pie grows, he'll gain twice as much new crust and filling as we do, but hey -- unless we're envious (leftists) -- we're happy because we got more, too.
But consider what happens when the pie doesn't grow: If we see someone getting wealthier, then what do we know? We know he or she is getting it at someone else's expense.
And things are even worse, of course, if the pie is shrinking.
Going back to our discussion of ethics, if we don't want to get ahead by hurting others, it means we look for win-win situations like the growing pie, and avoid situations which are like the stable or shrinking pie, where our profit always comes by hurting someone else.
Sadly, I'm going to show Quixtar is like the final case. The few winners are created not just by taking an equal amount from a few losers, but -- far worse -- the few winners win because the losers waste a terrific amount of wealth (time and energy), beyond what the "winners" will eventually receive.
So if you're one of those people who bought into the ethics I mentioned above -- that we don't want to get ahead by hurting others -- then your ethics forbid you to participate in Quixtar if I'm right.
Or you don't really have the ethics you say you do.
Quixtar as an Economic Sinkhole
First, a definition: Positive economic activity is that which makes more wealth in the world. To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, it "moves lower-valued resources to higher values". From our discussion above, it's activity which makes a bigger economic pie with more for everyone to eat.
Imagine we start with nothing, except that you live on a lot full of trees, sticks, and vines; I live on land covered with rocks and flint. We trade, do some work, and -- viola! -- we now have axes for ourselves and to sell to others. We're all just a bit richer, and our lives, just a bit better. We can trade with the fruit-people and eat. And we can chop down a tree or five, build shelters, and get inside, away from the cold. We're all richer, fewer of us are dying from exposure, and life is better all around.
We have made the world a better place.
Now consider Quixtar: In Quixtar, there are basiclly two kinds of economic activity. The first is that people buy a lot of stuff from Quixtar corporation. But this isn't generally a significant improvement, since people already had ways of buying similar or identical stuff -- either online or up the street. So the addition of that activity doesn't change the overall economic picture much. Nobody's really getting anything they didn't get before.
(But some of your money now gotes to Quixtar's owners, rather than the owners of your neighborhood stores, or Land's End, or whatever.)
BUT, the product costs must be increased slightly in order to pay bonuses back to the "uplines" who signed up each consumer. So, looking only at this part of the equation so far, people are generally paying more and getting less because of those bonuses. So that's a net negative effect. That part of the economic world is worse.
Now, what about the results of the upline payments? Well, this certainly generates some activity, too, doesn't it? The net effect of this activity is that IBOs, in order to position themselves to receive these payments at some point in the future, run around trying to contact their friends (and strangers), and spend their time, and their friends' time, telling them about this great new opportunity.
There are two things I'd like to note about this:
(1) Such meetings seemed designed to give as little information as possible. This means that people who are accustomed to knowing the cost of things before they buy them have to spend a lot of time, as I did, doing research in order to find out all kinds of things their sponsor already knows, but won't tell them -- or things their sponsor doesn't know, but really should.
(2) Then there are a lot of repeat contacts. Because the come-on is often mysterious, and doesn't mention the word "Quixtar", a person actually has to sit down with the sponsor to find out if it's Quixtar again. ("Oh, this sounds like Amway...")
Looked at as a whole, this is a very inefficient way to get the word out about Quixtar. A billboard sign and a few ad on TV would do the job much quicker and more cheaply and efficiently. (Why this is not done is explained here.)
So what value does all this activity generate? None! What new food or invention was available because Stacey called me to tell me about a "business opportunity"? I would have eaten lunch anyway, that day, but wouldn't have wasted the gas to drive to a lunch meeting I didn't enjoy. I might have just driven around the block a dozen times for all the difference it made.
Marketing, sales, and talk, on their own, don't make the world wealther. And this activity is all about talk. Remember, in the previous example, wealth (in the form of the flint axes) was actually created. But none of this activity creates wealth. It just burns it in a very inefficient manner.
In the end, the vast majority of Quixtar IBOs will drop out without ever having broken even. But consider what they could have done: If they really, really enjoyed it all, then it was no worse than a vacation. But if they could have worked elsewhere, then the world is definitely a poorer place, and we are without whatever contributions they might have given us with those hours.
(Imagine, for example, they'd decided to do community service instead. We'd have more, better playgrounds. Or imagine they'd done landscaping -- people in town would have had slightly better selection and quality when they wanted to landscape their yard.)
So, looking at the whole of Quixtar activity, nothing is produced.
Survivor: Quixtar
A very simple way of seeing this is to imagine you placed a bunch of Quixtar IBOs on an island, and told them to do only Quixar-related stuff. Imagine you even left them with a bunch of prospects to work on. Assuming your instructions were followed, how do you think they will have contributed to the island's economy when you checked back a few years later?
That's right: They'd be dead of starvation. Nothing on the island would have been improved by their activities. No positive economic impact at all.
And worse, before dying, they probably spent time pestering the potential sponsors you left there, who would otherwise have been busy lashing together their bamboo huts to weather the hurricane, and collecting crab and fruit to eat. They might have even lost a few valuable economic contributors to Quixtar, people who could have helped build another fishing raft or figured out a better way to construct the huts.
So it's negative all around, and thus Quixtar activity makes the world a worse place. You might as well burn dollar bills, or do something else you'd enjoy more. But definitely don't do this instead of any other kind of work.
And since Quixtar doesn't create any wealth, you can see that the guys who are getting rich are getting it by taking it from people downline, who are losing their wealth. And they generally lose a lot of wealth in order to put a few dollars into their upline's hands.
Though there's much talk of "quitting your day job", the truth is that without day jobs, there would be no Quixtar. The money flow goes like this: Sally works a day job to earn money to live. She becomes an IBO and now buys things from Quixtar, using the money earned at her day job. Some goes to Quixtar instead of Kroger (or whatever), and some -- the extra she's paying in increased product costs -- goes to her various uplines. Who don't have to work anymore. Maybe.
So that's where their wealth comes from. Her day job. Meanwhile, she's doing less work, sleeping less, and trying to get everyone she knows (or even doesn't) to have these meetings with her...
Counter-Arguments
A number of exceptions might be raised to what I mention above. I'll raise them myself so you don't have to:
Wait? Aren't the uplines getting wealthy?
Yes. But that's just a matter of rearranging the wealth (inefficiently), not creating it. Put sardonically, it's like trying to keep the titantic afloat by rearranging the deck chairs. Or trying to fix (inflate) a flat by swapping the tires.
Hey! Quixtar invents some good products! They have patents!
This is an excellent counterargument. My response would be that unless Quixtar's new products are on the level of nuclear fusion they're not likely to make up for the HUGE amount of lost time, effort, and material a million active IBOs will squander running around trying to contact and talk to six new people each week -- not to mention the amount of time those people now had to spend figuring out what this nonsense was all about. Not to mention all the cheerleading sessions.
And no, XS Energy Drink, tasty though it may be, does not rise to that level.
You forgot about the conventions!
If Quixtar IBOs, who'd never take a vacation but just sat home reading a book, went to a convention, then perhaps we'd have something -- small -- there. But my impression is that people are just spending their vacations in different ways, meaning that wealth is transferred, not created. For example, Bob decided to forget the Disney vacation and went to Detroit instead.
Worse, it occurs to me that some people may be putting off necessary tasks, like home maintenence, to do these things. Meaning that there will not be a few more somewhat-more-decrepit houses in the world. The same is true if time was taken from the day job which would not have otherwise been spent on some kind of vacation.
But people are improved by reading books! They might become smarter workers in their day job because of this!
Touche! I grant this point. But only to the effect it applies to non-Quixtar business activity. Being more efficient at burning dollar bills -- or more persuasive at convincing people to start channeling their efforts into a system which burns wealth-creating power -- only makes the world worse faster.
Even the positive effect, here the alleged improvement at other work, has to be pretty darned good in order to compensate for a million or so active IBOs burning about 10 of their 50-70 work hours a week (40 work, 10-20 chores, 10 Quixtar) on something that generates no value.
But, hey, what if I like to do this!
Then bully for you -- then it's as good or bad as any other non-paying hobby which doesn't help people. (Except for the effect is has on those you sign up.) Making friends is great. But there a lot of ways of doing that.
Would hurting people justify making friends? Say I made some fun friends while vandalizing your neighborhood. Say I even learned some artistic skills. Would that make it worthwhile? No, because there are less harmful ways of achieving the same effects.
Further, if this is an ethically-challenged activity, you're only going to be making friends who (a) don't realize it (and thus there's a limit on IQ for these sorts) and (b) realize it (no IQ limit) but aren't bothered by that (and so aren't very ethical). You won't get a lot of really smart and ethical friends.
But I notice they're not selling it as a "fun" activity. When I sat through the meeting, the emphasis was on wealth with occasional disclaimers about work. As fun -- well, everybody has their own tastes. But most people don't get into this because they're bored of solitaire.
What about you? You're writing about this! Doesn't that waste time?
I've spent probably 80-120 hours of my life, so far, on Quixtar. Just a guess. Now keep in mind, Quixtar asks each participant to spend 10 hours a week, for about 520 hours a year. Not to mention the old cashola you spend.
So if I talk even one person out of spending their time this way, I've easily freed up another 520 hours of useful time, either for leisure, which they'll at least enjoy more, or for useful economic activity. So, even though I'm personally not making a penny, in terms of improving the economy, these few postings seem to be a great economic investment for my countrymen.
You seem awful fixated on wealth and materialism. What about spirtual values?
Since Quixtar sells itself on economic terms, I have to address it on the same grounds. This kind of analysis isn't meant to decide the proper overall view of material things, but just to discuss what material effects Quixtar has, for those who believe it's bad to hurt other people.
I personally believe that God created both wealth and work, and that they can be useful if used the way he tells us. But when we let our desire for wealth come ahead of our love for Him, we can often hurt others and ourselves as well. Thus I believe that having a love of God is an important counterweight to these kinds of temptations. I also believe he will ask us to account for these things.
Conclusion
I hope I was able to make this comprehensible. This isn't meant to show how smart I am or something like that -- my sincere hope is that people, even those who currently make a living from Quixtar, will understand the kind of overall effect the Quixtar system has, and will stop plowing their effort into it.
For those who are getting started, it's good enough to appeal to your greed: Remember, it's unlikely you'll be one of the winners; the average IBO, if they work about 10 a week, earns something around $3/hour or less.
For those who are already making good money, keeping their eyes focused on the success stories, and satisfied that the many exceptions are just due to their own moral failings, I can only appeal to your altruism: Please stop hurting more people than you help.
Thank you all for your time and patience. God bless.
Your an Idiot and you don't know what your talking about
Anonymous coward: Like anyone else, you're welcomed to point out what's wrong with the case laid out above. Insults are the mark of a person who can't think of anything else to say.
Tell me this.. what is one thing you do for a living? Drink beer, watch tv, stay on your computer rambling about anything. What kind of impact have you made on society.n This site. Lauging Ha Ha Ha. Are you serving the country, are you helping the needy? People can analyze and analyze anything for years, months, days about anything but if you haven't actually tried doing anything of the matter you talk about your just a voice. You could probably as well be a communist or socialist. We don't know. It's funny do you have a number we anyone can contact you. Any information were your opinions are legit. The media is always been bullshit. They want you to hear what they want you to hear. There is only little truth and too much damn opinions. Hey in every work force there is always that one that wants to deface there employer, or opponent. That bag of a loser. For all i know is that you could probably be working for those company trying to put down Quixtar. I've been there done that served my country but who are you. DO YOU WORK FOR COSTCO or WALMART! DO YOU CHECK MY RECIEPT 10 FEET AWAY FROM WHERE I JUST PURCHASED MY BAG GOODS. WTF? i guess im just writing nonsense to this site cuz im tired of this damn site. Pointless nonsense. Although some of the findings is true. The true nature of it is you gotta experience and learn. I know for a fact that the Quixtar education system is pretty damn knowledgable other than the fact that it may get pricey but school is pricey. What do you think college will get you every or anywhere. You need trades, intricate networks of people connection and a mouth of shut the F up. If you haven't experienced then know your roll and shut your mouth.
i think im finish now and if your just going to say "you anonymous coward" i laugh at you. you are an idiot for an religious being.
eveything is a damn pyramid people. Damn your family is a pyramid unless its disfunctional, the F'in govt. is a pyramid. the damn military is a pyramid. YOu have to know what kind of pyramid your getting into thats all. Im in a pyramid. A pyramid of retard F's that think they know everything and probably at the top about to fall off..HaHa
.. and that is your brain on Quixtar.
Yo John,
Your invectives certainly identify your personality type. I was in Amway/Quixtar for 9 years. Worked the biz 30 to 40 hours a week and was as plugged into the system as deeply as its possible to get. I was as completely blind to what was really happening as you appear to be. I learned and experienced that the kingpins were heartless monsters that only had one primary goal in mind. That was to glean every penny they could from the distributor force through a SYSTEM of worthless tapes, books and functions. They out right lied to my wife and I that they were making their lifestyle from the products and that everyone paid the same price for the SYSTEM. When it was all said and done after nine years I was 40,000 in debt and my wife had divorced me. It was only sites like this one that opened my eyes to my endentured slavery. Perhaps it will take more than this site for you to understand what is happening to you. A paradigm shift can be a painful thing, frought with risk, but I would suggest that this is probably what you will need to recover your sanity.
Some people have way to much time on their hands, Its amazing the lengths people will go to propagate negative. If you spent as much time uplifting people as you do destroying peoples dreams, you would feel more fullfilled in life. Move on and get a life. This obviously is your only claim to fame.Spend your time building your future instead of destroying others.
But my dear friend, you seemed to have missed the point: Quixtar isn't, on average, helping people. By warning people, I'm not "destroying" them, but helping them. But I suppose you'd see sign warning people of a flooded road as "propagating negative" too. ;-)
Or do you have something to gain from trapping them in the flood? You seem to, from the cult-like terminology you use ("Propagate negative?" Oh please. Run, people, run.)
I'm amazed, in a nation where the average person spends about 28 hours per week watching television, how touchingly concerned you are that I might spend 90 minutes documenting what I see as a trap which harms many people.
How good of you to be so concerned about what I do with my free time.
You wouldn't be one of those people who spends more than twice that amount cheering about Quixtar each week, would you? ;-)
After 16 years of being in the A/Q cult system its good to see sites like this.Your upline will tell you anything to get you to stay in and keep making them rich.Dex said he wants people to think and then think right.He wants you to think like he wants you too think, not think on your own.Pray to God for wisdom and not any man on this earth and you will see.Think about there things!
Tapes cost less than a dollar.
Hotel meeting rooms cost?2 or 3 hours?
Bookstores are available everywhere?
Phone conferences available and chat rooms?
Download music sites why not business sites?
This is the year 2004 isn't it?
Their system isn't made for your good ,only their good.Dex spent 40 million on his tool factory several years ago and are you still paying for it even though it's out-dated.
Tim: I love your blog, and I won't talk about all the obvious reasons like the validaity of your arguments and your writing skills, I love it more as you are a 'right wingist' and Quixtar also fell on that side. They often attack critics as liberals and leftist.
The best thing I love is comments by pro-morons :)
And yes I agree with you, writing abut Quixtar is a LOT of fun than watching TV. It is my hobby now as well. Every 2nd guy is writing about them and I'm loving it.
When will they learn:
The truth is neither negative or postitive, but simply the truth?
I spent 20 years "in the system" (I am referring to an AMO, not to the Q corp itself.) The AMO's are, indeed, cults.
Run away.
Every time I hear about Quixtar/Amway I'm surprised at how few people are willing to take responsibility on either end (pro or con) with what is going on. People have inter changed their opinions or their analysis of certain facts for what they believe is true. People will always see things with a slant in favor of what they hope to see.
Anti Quixtar people will continually look for holes in the people and the business model and find them. This is not because they are negative or losers, but because their are serious character flaws in some peoples and the business.
However, the next questions to ask is...aren't their holes in every system created that have people involved?
It's interesting to see people interchanging a debate regarding a business plan and people character flaws. Because there are flaws in the people doesn't mean the business won't work. Because there are flaws in the business doesn't mean it won't work for people.
The reason this seems to be important is that we have interchanged Quixtar with the AMO's and the AMO's with the distributors. If we are going to analysis Quixtar as a viable income source then we need to begin to approach it with the logic of business school.
This post paints too wide of a brush to be useful. Just like LawDawg’s post on Saturation. Let us stop posting out of our pride and hurt and begin to realize that both sides have a piece of the truth and most would do well to consider them.
Soobonn,
I think you didn't read the post.
Anti Quixtar people will continually look for holes in the people and the business model and find them. This is not because they are negative or losers, but because their are serious character flaws in some peoples and the business.
You seemed to have missed the point entirely. This not about a few bad Quixtar IBOs, or a case where one or twelve of them did it wrong. Where above did I say any such thing? Quote the lines, please.
Quixtar simply generates no wealth. If you want to dispute this, show which part of the business create new wealth, or innovates by creating new services. Don't argue with points which aren't being made.
However, the next questions to ask is...
... as though you'd even considered the first one...
aren't their holes in every system created that have people involved?
My point isn't that Quixtar or Quixtar IBOs have some problems. My point is that Quixtar-related activities, unlike "real" work, don't make the world a better place.
This is a fundamental difference, similar to comparing stained glass construction with rock-throwing. No amount of throwing rocks creates value. Quixtar IBOs may not understand they are not doing useful work, but that doesn't make it untrue.
Again, if I'm a bricklayer, the world is a "richer" place when my day is done, because brick walls and sidings are a form of wealth, and there are more of them when I go home to dinner.
By contrast, if I'm a Quixtar IBO, and I talk to 36 people in 3 weeks, and get one person to sign up, there is no material improvement in the world created by that activity.
That is an incredibly simple proposition. Are you that completely unable to understand?
It's interesting to see people interchanging a debate regarding a business plan and people character flaws. Because there are flaws in the people doesn't mean the business won't work.
Unstop your ears man: I'm not saying it doesn't work because someone has a character flaw. I'm saying it doesn't improve things because it generates no wealth.
Let's say I call 36 people and discuss Quixtar, and I do with with a bad attitude, and lie constantly.
What new wealth was created? None. Are there new cars? Better houses? More food? No.
Now let's say I call 36 more and discuss it with a good attitude, telling them the truth, at least as far as I can understand it.
So are those cars, houses and food there now, because I have now executed the same "plan" with fewer character flaws?
No. Not even then. The attitude, or character of the one doing it made no difference in the question as to whether this activity generated wealth.
Is any of this sinking through yet?
Questions of character only come into play only once you realize what you are doing hurts people. Then, we discuss character flaws.
For example, imagine multiple people explained, in several different ways, how a particular type of activity was inherantly hurtful, overall. Now imagine someone who does that activity read that argument, couldn't find anything wrong with it, but instead decided to protect their self-image through various self-deluding tactics, such as imputing bad motives to the one who pointed it out or mouthing shallow, unproven contentions.
That, then would show a flaw in the character of the person in question: He was given the truth (or something that looked like it -- not that he wanted to check further, for fear it might actually be right), but he cared more about his own self-image than the question of whether he was, in fact, hurting people.
This is merely a hypothetical example, you understand.
The reason this seems to be important is that we have interchanged Quixtar with the AMO's and the AMO's with the distributors. If we are going to analysis Quixtar as a viable income source then we need to begin to approach it with the logic of business school.
You seem to be engaged in distracting yourself from the point at hand. And I doubt you've been to business school or studied economics, so you probably have no idea what you're saying here. It's all very well and nice to talk about whether someone has "interchanged" parts of Quixtar. But it doesn't cause any Quixtar-related to make the world a better place.
No amount of changing your "thinking" or "message" or "ethics" causes this to be true.
This post paints too wide of a brush to be useful. Just like LawDawg’s post on Saturation. Let us stop posting out of our pride and hurt and begin to realize that both sides have a piece of the truth and most would do well to consider them.
Try to understand: We all inhabit a shared reality. If someone says something, like "Gravity pulls down", you can't simply deal with that by alleging the idea is suggested "out of pride and hurt". First, it's dubious you have any access to their mental state. Second, their mental state doesn't affect the truth or falsity of the proposition.
Likewise, you can't just say "Oh, you've painted with too broad a brush". Such a statement, alone, suggests you disagree with the proposition but have no counterexamples to give. If there are exceptions, then show them. If not, then you have no basis for saying otherwise.
Again, consider:
A: "All right-handed people own Volvos."
B: "That's too broad a brush."
A: "Prove it."
B: "This is my brother. He's right handed, he doesn't own a Volvo."
A: "Oh, okay. Touche!"
So, if you have some counterexample, some way in which Quixtar generates wealth on the whole, please present it. Otherwise, there's no particular reason for anyone to take your claim to the contrary seriously.
Nor think you're doing anything except distracting yourself from the argument at hand.
You argue that Quixtar does not generate any wealth. How many retail stores have you worked for? My guess would be none. Or if you have they never let you look into their computer systems so that you could see the mark-up on a lot of the items. I ,however, work at Wal-Mart and the mark-up on any given item is 75 to 500 percent. Hmmm, now consider the information that Quixtar gives about the chain of distribution. Just think about it for a minute...Amazing isn't it. They got it right.
Now think about the percentages that they give out their "paychecks" with. If you would set down and do the math then you would understand that it all works out in the end. Just like they expain it when you actually pay attention. Trust me, I did the math quite extensively after I found out about them. The Quixtar business model has been well thought out, which I must give kudos to whoever figured it out, and has been laid out in such a way to create wealth that most people won't take it at face value.
Have you looked closely at the McDonald's business model lately? It is the EXACT SAME thing. If you took the McDonald's business model, or any franchise model for that matter, and put it into the virtual world of the internet you would come out with the exact same network of wealth. And like the McDonald's model each business owner has to really on LOCATION. Just think about that for a little bit...Would you disagree that McDonald's is creating wealth for the people that have joined in on it? No.
Just something for you guys, and girls, to think about. Yes, I have done my homework. And yes I believe that the Quixtar model works. Unfortunately, it does not work for the people that can't accept that the money that drives this world along is so readily accessible. So, now you can all go back to your little pathetic lives and start complaining some more about why you are poor. You don't get rich by complaining, an you don't enrich anyone else's lives by doing it either.
So as much as you say that this site is designed to help people escape from the "Quixtar Trap" all you are really trying to do is hide from your own inability to function in a free-enterprise community, and try to cover up your own conditioned mind.
I didn't go to college because I thought it was a waste of my time and talents and money. All that time just to get a piece of paper that says that I can do something. Whoopy....Give me a break. Colleges are just another way for people to get rich off of someone elses stupidity. Anything that you can learn in college you can learn on your own. After all, most libraries carry all those text books you buy to go to college and learn. What is really stopping you from going out and learning on your own?
Nathan,
You argue that Quixtar does not generate any wealth. How many retail stores have you worked for? My guess would be none.
Your guess would be wrong. (I've never see a group of people so very interested in every last detail of my life. And such a bad group of guessers, on average, too.)
You seem to working from two false assumptions, ones I can quickly dispell, I hope.
The first seems to be that you think I'm saying retail sales adds no economic value. Read it again: I've said no such thing -- retail sales are very valuable, economically.
My point is that Quixtar adds no value to what's already out there. Since demand was already being met, when an IBO switches over to Quixtar, in general they don't have anything they didn't or couldn't have had before.
Imagine I'm digging a ditch. That's valuable: A world with ditches is better than one without. Now you come along, and I stop digging, and you start.
Is the world any better? No, no net difference. The same amount of ditch digging is going on here.
You seem to think I'm saying ditch digging, or retail sales, adds no value. No, I'm pointing out no value is created by switching participants.
If Quixtar competed directly with stores, and had lower prices, that might help a tiny amount. But neither of those is true, since generally people don't shop Quixtar competitively the same way they do with local and other online retailers.
So, as I said above, Quixtar adds no value to this situation. Value is simply transferred. That's not the same as creating it, just as no net wealth was created when I handed you the shovel and you took over.
Now, the next thing you seem to be confused about is the "location" thing. This is just a distraction to throw you off the scent. And it seems to have worked.
I've got some news for you: Quixar isn't the only online retailer. Pretty much everything you can buy from Quixtar you could have bought somewhere else online. (The same thing was true back in the days of mail-order Amway.)
So this reverts to the previous situation: IBO's still aren't getting anything from Quixtar they couldn't have gotten otherwise.
Now some IBOs, like you apparently, seem to think the "online" part of this a good, money-saving thing. Because Quixtar tells them it is.
But that's a lie. Ask yourself: If you could have bought your groceries and potato chips online before you were an IBO, then why didn't you?
The answer is because, as expensive as retail is, buying online and shipping is, for certain kinds of products, even more costly.
If it wasn't, you would have been doing it before you joined Quixtar.
So you're probably losing money, not saving it, since you probably would have chosen the cheaper way of getting it otherwise.
So that's a net economic loss to you, but no change overall, because the difference in cost goes to the shipping company.
Now there's a third and final point I want to make to you -- again. This seems particularly hard for IBOs to understand...
I tell them that Quixtar is, roughly, "just like" retail, except for the upline payments. Then, in horror, they write back to me, correcting my alleged ignorance, telling me it's "just like" retail.
Well, duh. That was part of my point.
Except they always forget to mention the other part, the upline payments, which make all the difference in the world.
Somehow, they think this is an insignificant part of the business. Which is exactly what the Quixtar AMOs want them to think.
But I wouldn't be writing all this stuff if it weren't for those little upline payments. You don't see me discussing McDonalds and Target, do you? No.
(IBOs are fond of making this point, but they never stop to ask themselves why it's so. I mean, if I wrote about Target, do you think several hundred IBOs would come here all defensive? No. Or even several hundred target employees? Or stockholders? No. So think, you guys -- ask yourself -- what do you think you're here and all defensive about Quixtar? What's the difference? C'mon you guys, you can spot the big difference if you really think about it. And no, it's not "location". Hint for the challenged: It's the upline payments. That changes everything.)
And, regarding the impact of those little upline payments, you can go back and reread the post above, because I'm getting tired of re-typing each and every argument written there.
Thank you much.
Maybe I am missing one of your "points". If you are saying that Quixtar adds no wealth because you could have got the same or similar already and for cheaper, then why are all the retail stores and manufacturers out there in the same category? After all there are already the same or similar products available. Wouldn't life be very dull and very controlling with only one store, one manufacturer, of like products. It is about choice. It is about competitive pricing. I will grant you Quixtar is more expensive so therefore to me I wouldn't buy their products. But it is nice to live in a country where chice is available. As far as upline payments, when I purchase a product anywhere, I don't give much thought about where the money goes and how much goes to each area. I only know I have to pay a certain amount for what I am getting. What happened to Quixtar was the greed by those at the upper levels in convincing those below them that the purchase of their "training materials" would make them successful. If people would just do their research, use their heads a lot would be avoided. I refuse to believe however that all direct sales, MLM's etc are bad. Some are not, just as there is good and bad in every walk of life. Maybe you say try the traditional way instead. 95% of all small businesses fail in the first year, often at tremendous losses to those just trying to better their lives a little. Why not do a justice and when you do find a direct sales that is worthy of praise that you do that as well. Why not take your views and email them to the direct sales association?
I love the McDonalds argument concerning the franchise model. There is one gaping flaw in that argument though; McDonalds franchises all stem from the same point. There is one corporation, and all franchises must be purchased via that single corporation. Yes Quixtar is a single corporation and all distributorships must be purchased through Quixtar. However, McDonalds is not making its money from the sponsoring of downline restaurants. All chains are on equal footing and each has an equal opportunity to generate wealth. How many McDonalds have shut down due to market saturdation? I can't think of any in my area. I wonder if that's because the corporation will only allow a certain number of chains in any given geographic region...unlike Quixtar.
I'd like to look at economic value from another angle for a minute. We can look at Quixtar and the Motivational Organization each seperately. As shown before, Quixtar does not create economic wealth because it offers the same products as other retailers, only at higher costs (embedding the prices to cover the "upline payments" that will one day make every IBO rich - HEEE!).
Looking at the QMO though, I think that this is a much better example of diminishing economic wealth. Motivational Tools (tapes, CD's) are made for $0.50 each (estimated) and sold to the end-user (non-Platinum IBO) for $8.25 (that's a 1625% markup). The platinum IBO makes the least amount off the sale $0.50 - $1.00) but yet invests the most time attempting to market the goods. Whereas the higher-ups are making much more money off these goods and investing very little time in their marketing. So, even the platinum IBO (which is touted as the point where IBOs start to see a net profit) is decreasing his wealth.
This doesn't even begin to cover the ethical issues that arrise because your upline, who wants nothing more than for you to succeed (HEEEEEE! - sorry that's the funniest thing I've heard lately) is making money of the "training system". Not just on tapes and books, but on the functions as well. Some EDC can walk away with $400,000 in his pocket after a weekend function. Not to mention that you are forced to book your room through their website where they take the group rate and tack on $10 or so of pure profit. It even goes lower than that. If you are chartering buses for a weekend to go to a function, let's say you take 3 busses. Each bus holds roughly 48 people. So, that's 144 people. Each person pays $100 to go on the bus, so that means that is costs $14,400 to charter three busses for 72 hours?? That means each bus is being billed at a rate of $66.67 per hour, even though there's only 20 hours or so of driving involved? Yes, your upline only has your success in mind, remember, they don't succeed until you succeed.
There is also another arguement to the counter-arguement of self improvement by the tools and all the "positive people". It is absoltely amazing how quickly those wonderful people will shrug you off once you start missing some cheerleading sessions. So, that would lead one to believe that those people are really only your friends if you are "sold-out" to the business. Not to mention that they will start to talk about you behind your back (e.g. you're a loser, a quitter, a negative person). Those are some great friends!
Talking in terms of the tools and self improvement (book reading), that's also an unrealistic claim as well. You may be able to improve your self image by reading, but it only pertains to the Quixtar environment. So, if you were to leave the environment for any reason, that would then negate that positive effect because of all those loving people who, all of a sudden would rather you be dead instead of killing their dreams because you are a quitter and a loser.
Being a 1500pv IBO after six months in Quixscam, Quasar, whatever you want to call it, I have come to these realizations. My wife, on the other hand, thinks that I'm full of it. I guess she can't see the diminishing assets (time, funds, logical thought) without any ROI. She's not buying my approach. Is there another way to go about it?
Your bud,
Frank
Dan,
Maybe I am missing one of your "points". If you are saying that Quixtar adds no wealth because you could have got the same or similar already and for cheaper, then why are all the retail stores and manufacturers out there in the same category? After all there are already the same or similar products available. Wouldn't life be very dull and very controlling with only one store, one manufacturer, of like products. It is about choice. It is about competitive pricing. I will grant you Quixtar is more expensive so therefore to me I wouldn't buy their products.
You're clearly starting to understand. This is good.
Think of an imaginary rural town. When the first grocery store opens, it's a huge improvement over having none. Later, a second store opens: this is good too, because it causes the first store to have to compete better on price, even if it doesn't carry anything different. After the second store opens, people are going to get even more food for their dollar.
Maybe more open: As each new store opens, there is less and less positive economic improvement. Now, at some point, demand is met. When this point is exceeded, new retailers don't add any new value: They just transfer customers from older ones. At some point, if there are more stores than the demand requires, somebody in town will have to close their doors. Equilibrium will be maintained.
Now think of Quixtar: Demand was being met without Quixtar. So we're not looking at a situation where, like the second or third store, it might be meeting an unmet need.
Furthermore, all those great things we're saying about the competition you get with the 2nd or 3rd store don't (generally) apply to Quixtar: Those who are "in" try to buy most of all their products from Quixtar regardless of slight increases in price. And those who are "out" tend to buy none (or very close to none) of their products from Quixtar.
You yourself just admitted the prices are higher. Right! That's the point. People aren't buying from Quixtar because they compete on price, so Quixtar isn't even helping lower market prices, as even the 183rd online pants retailer might.
So that just leaves a wealth transfer.
Even if Quixtar *did* compete a bit (say, people were making some decisions on a few product areas), I'd argue this small positive contribution was, again, completely flooded out by the tsunami of negative economic effect described above. Even if could argue Quixtar had helped an IBOs save a few cents on a pair of pants, that gain would quickly be overshadowed by a single "plan-sharing" meeting, counting gas and time, even at minimum wage.
But, as it is, I don't believe even that small effect ever happens, and there are two reasons for this, one of which I will, again, restate from above.
(1) While it might be possible to find a product or two where Quixtar is cheaper, because of the upline payments, they must always be more expensive, on aggregate, than a "normal" retailer.
You can't get something for nothing.
So even if you save a few cents on pants, you're going to have to be paying it back on cereal or vitamins or laptops.
Because there must be extra costs to cover the upline payments. Again, you can't get something for nothing.
(2) Even further, once people start "tranferring their purchasing power" into Quixtar, they essentially stop shopping competitively. Many former IBOs have noted this phenomenon, when they say, as Eric does, that it tends to degrade your sense of quality.
Quixtar is not typically like a grocery store, where you'll find several competing brands: it is an artificial, closed, controlled marketplace, where other brands can compete only when and how Quixtar allows.
So if Quixtar wants you to have their vitamins, you won't be seeing One-A-Day, Flintstones' or Centrum. If Quixtar wants you to have one of their vaunted detergent products, you won't be seeing Tide or Cheer.
So this further increases your costs, because you tend to stop "shopping around". And thus, you are getting less for your dollar for this reason too.
And one person getting less for their dollar is a net negative, economically. And thus I suggest that even without considering the effect of the upline payments, if you really want to look at this area, you'll see it's a net negative.
But I grant it as a zero above, because I'm concerned people won't even get the main point, much less these subtler effects.
Like I said, even if we stipulated Quixtar was "just like" the 183rd next online pants retailer, that is, as a slight new net positive, that small positive is dwarfed in comparison to the wealth-consuming behavior which characterizes the Quixtar IBO experience.
So you made a very good point. But even if true, it's not enough. But it's not true, as you even admit when you point out you wouldn't shop there competitively because of the higher prices. Right. That proves the point: you're no different than any other consumer. They won't either.
Kudos to you, Dan, for a good observation!
Frank,
However, McDonalds is not making its money from the sponsoring of downline restaurants. All chains are on equal footing and each has an equal opportunity to generate wealth. How many McDonalds have shut down due to market saturdation? I can't think of any in my area.
This is very good point, Frank! Thanks for sharing it, and the rest of your experience as well.
I've mentioned this in other postings, and others, elsewhere, will point this out as well:
Look at McDonald's: Do you think a Mickey-D's owner would be happy to hear there was another one going to open across the street? No, he'd be furious; hopping mad. Calling the mothership and asking what on earth they're doing. Probably suing.
Real franchisees want as few similar competitors in their area as possible.
Now look at Quixtar: In Quixtar, people are trying to create as many "franchisees" in their area as possible.
The exact opposite.
Why?
This is proof that money is made from the franchisees, not really from selling product. McDonald's makes its money off hamburgers sold to the public, not it's franchisees. But Quixtar makes its money off the franchisees themselves, and only that.
Again, the money comes from the fact that lowest-level franchisees have to keep their day jobs. That's not an unfortunate effect; it's what powers the whole system. Without all those "day jobs" there would be no Quixtar.
And I agree with your point about "people improvement", and have addressed it in the posting above: Such is only useful as far as it applies to non-Quixtar work. If Quixtar is a net negative, doing more of it, or being more persuasive when doing it, just serves to make it a bigger negative.
As far as convincing your wife, that's a toughie. I'd say make sure you, in your own head, fully understand all the issues, and can explain that clearly to others. That's important.
The main point is that this is just "pyramid" scheme (well, matrix, but close enough) where the product purchases are there to "launder" the upline payments and make them legal. Everything else flows from there.
Guys like AmwayMan will point out a "paradigm shift" is needed -- something to break them loose. Perhaps getting her to keep track of expenses versus income will help, in order to show this isn't profiting. And you could show her the income statistics, too.
I also happen to buy into the adage: "Work like everything depends upon man, pray like everything depends upon God." Not that I always do that. But if you believe in that, you could consider that too.
I wish you luck on that one, friend. Keep us posted.
Wow Tim! Looks like to me that a lot of emotion is out there buzzing around the biz. Some of it appears to be folks with rational thinking going on and some serious desire for communication. Some of it however is a good example of those that have been indoctrinated by the SYSTEM. Even their verbiage comes right off a tape or out of a book or even from going to a function. It never ceases to amaze me that at one time I was just like these folks who are defending a process that is taking their hard earned funds and using them to support a group of MONSTERS. All your posts are excellant but I think at some point they are lost on some of these folks, I understand, they never will. Especially as long as they are on SOT, BOM, Meetings, STP, and FUNCTIONS... For myself my wife wised up long before I did and I was so thoroughly brainwashed that I lost her because I could not see beyond the SYSTEM. For a long time I thought I was to blame for what happened to us and my blindness when it came to the QMO's. I have since learned that certain personality types are susceptable to the QMO's, me being one. That is why change is so tough, the damn SYSTEM is like a drug addiction and it requires abstinance to clear the mind and recover your sanity.
I find it kind of funny that the first thing that you decided to try and argue away was the fact that you have worked in retail. The simplest and easiest thing to destroy. Nice way to start to gain a little bit of momentum, huh? Thing is, you argued that I was wrong, and yet you never bothered to explain exactly what you did regarding your employment in retail. Really. You should try and back up your arguements with some facts and evidence.
Then you decided to try and use the McDonald's franchise to say that they wouldn't open multiple franchises close to each other. That is simply laughable. That very same business just opened up another place with 100 yards of another one. And BOTH of them are doing VERY well. They are both booming with more business than just the one did. Like I said, it is LOCATION.
And as for the target arguments and so forth, well next time you buy something there because you can get it cheaper look toward the bottom of the bag. Guess what you'll find. A nice little dot com web site. Did you know that they tell their employees to get people to go on that web site? How many employees actually do that? Virtually none.
After all, if they did and got the customer's to shop at the on-line site then they would be out of a job. Simple fact: ALL RETAIL STORES WANT THEIR CUSTOMERS TO SHOP FROM THEM ON-LINE. There is virtually no over head expenses. I tried to run a conventional business, I had no competition in my town, and the over head expenses killed me.
I actually liked the one post on here that explained about choice. That is all this is. A choice. I chose to start up a business with Quixtar as my supplier. That is all Quixtar is. Just like Golden State Foods is to McDonalds. The McDonalds franchises don't go to anyone but them to get their supplies. They can't go anywhere else. They are not allowed. They are under contract, and no matter what companies might give any given McDonalds a better deal they aren't allowed to use those products.
So as much as you argue that Quixtar is bad and that it creates no wealth, it is just a choice. It is just a supplier. So if you really want to bash Quixtar, go ahead. You might as well try bashing Golden State Foods as well. It will make about as much difference in the real world. You can't stop it from growing or changing. About all you can do is ruin people's thoughts with negative input.
I have met many people like you in my life. People that say you can't this, or you can't that. You chouldn't this, you shouldn't that. And every time I have proved them wrong. By the end of the year I will be making three times as much by using Quixtar as a supplier than I will be making at my current job. So keep yapping about Quixtar not creating any wealth, I really don't care. Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them. And so will everyone that supports me.
Besides that, it gives me something to do with my time rather than vegetate in front of a TV like the rest of you. And if you decide to ask why I look at this site, it is because I do have time to relax a little bit every now and then. I like to argue with people that don't really look at a bigger picture. I enjoy a good debate every now and then. So, yeah, you all are my amuzement every now and then. Later.
And you, mine, Nathan.
First, I notice you still haven't produced an example of how Quixtar generates wealth. Perhaps to distract from this weakness, you seem to want to have a lot of side discussions -- like whether I worked retail -- as if that might somehow change whether or not Quixtar generates wealth.
Second, I don't entertain people who come on here demanding details about my personal life. Period. It's rude, and not your business. If I want to tell you something about it, that's my choice, not yours. I've given you the truth on this point, and you'll have to live with it. I feel no more need to "prove" something this stupid to you than I would my own shoe size.
Third, if you really want to get other people "proving" things, you go first: Let's see your tax returns for your highest paying year. Online. With that line reporting how much Quixtar has made you.
Fourth, you have given no reason why such a thing is even relevant: You seem to be think that somehow only people who have worked at McDonald's or Walmart can understand basic economics. No offense, but I'd guess that probably goes the other way 'round; retail work isn't exactly rocket science.
Then you decided to try and use the McDonald's franchise to say that they wouldn't open multiple franchises close to each other. That is simply laughable. That very same business just opened up another place with 100 yards of another one. And BOTH of them are doing VERY well. They are both booming with more business than just the one did. Like I said, it is LOCATION.
Since you demand everyone else "prove" everything, please post the addresses of these two McDonald's. I'd be interested enough to investigate that.
Sure, there are times when two businesses of the same brand will open up nearby -- there are exceptions to every rule. For example, my bank was stupid enough to close the only branch in my township, and yet left two branches open on the same street elsewhere, about a quarter-mile away from each other.
There may also be rare situations where demand is high enough to warrant such a measure.
But it's more the exception than the rule. And it happens even less in a franchise. (The same owner might open two stores, but a good franchise will never allow two franchisees to locate that close.)
With Quixtar, this case isn't the exception -- it's the rule.
Think, Nathan: why is that different? It's because they make money off the franchisee, not the public. Think hard about that, Nathan.
I've never said location doesn't matter. I've just pointed out to you that there's nothing special about Quixtar being on the web -- there are plenty of other retailers which do this too.
Again, you seem to be arguing with someone else -- your statements seem to have almost no bearing what I say to you.
ALL RETAIL STORES WANT THEIR CUSTOMERS TO SHOP FROM THEM ON-LINE.
Again, you seem to be arguging against a statement I've certainly never made. I pointed out that most people don't buy certain products (e.g. groceries) on-line because it's more expensive for them that way, since they have to pay added delivery costs. And thus, that Quixtar will be a loss for them, for these products.
You've still said nothing to refute this point.
I actually liked the one post on here that explained about choice. That is all this is. A choice. I chose to start up a business with Quixtar as my supplier. That is all Quixtar is. Just like Golden State Foods is to McDonalds.
No, that's not all Quixtar is. Please pay attention:
Now there's a third and final point I want to make to you -- again. This seems particularly hard for IBOs to understand...
I tell them that Quixtar is, roughly, "just like" retail, except for the upline payments. Then, in horror, they write back to me, correcting my alleged ignorance, telling me it's "just like" retail.
Well, duh. That was part of my point.
Except they always forget to mention the other part, the upline payments, which make all the difference in the world.
Pay attention. You've had two chances now: Pretend I didn't say a third time, and you're out. Understand?
You can say the above statement is wrong, and provide evidence. You can even drop that line of argument. But you can't go on making the original point as though I haven't answered it.
I have taken time to answer your every point. If you don't have the civility to pay attention, acknowledge that I've answered, then it's not clear to me why anyone else should be forced to pay attention to your words either.
Most bloggers have little tolerance for people who mindlessly repeat the same argument over and over and can't cope with the fact that someone's responded to them. I'm certainly no exception.
It's stupid, and it's rude.
I find it appalling so many from your business are so inconsiderate in this manner, and it speaks very poorly of the organization you claim to represent.
So as much as you argue that Quixtar is bad and that it creates no wealth, it is just a choice. It is just a supplier.
Saying "it's a choice" -- no matter how many times you do it -- doesn't actually show Quixtar generates wealth.
Did you know that burning dollar bills is a choice, too? So is robbing people. So is spinning in a circle, chanting, until you grow dizzy and pass out. These are all choices.
Yet none of them generates wealth.
Again, you completely ignore my response to you, where I took my time to explain to you under what conditions added retail "choices" benefit people economically.
You appear to have no comeback, so, apparently lacking any kind of original thought, you repeat your original argument, as though nobody had spoken in response.
Like a small child, plugging his ears and yelling: "LALALALALA I can't hear you!!"
I have met many people like you in my life. People that say you can't this, or you can't that.
I've never said "you can't" anything. Again, you seem to be having some sort of hallucination, as you're certainly not responding to anything I've written.
And every time I have proved them wrong.
You haven't proved anything yet. You can barely address the topic at hand.
There's more to "proving" Quixtar is moral than making some cash at it. You'd actually have to -- you know -- show why it's moral.
Perhaps you could simply repeat the words: "It's a choice" a few more times? :-) As if all choices were moral.
By the end of the year I will be making three times as much by using Quixtar as a supplier than I will be making at my current job. So keep yapping about Quixtar not creating any wealth, I really don't care. Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them. And so will everyone that supports me.
No, everyone who "supports you" will not be making money. The fact that you think so indicates how very little you understand this business.
Nathan, look at the income statistics. Do the math. What's your average active IBO making, at 40 hours or so per month?
That's right, about $3.00 a hour. There's nothing special about you where you can change this.
Again, what are you making now? Even if it's only $23,000, the odds of making about $70K are less than one in 12,000. And even if you make that, everyone downline from you will still be making, on average, $3/hr (much less if you deduct expenses) -- a horrible return on their investment -- and buying products which are costing them, on average, much too much.
Perhaps you will be one of the "lucky" ones who makes a profit, someday. (Though mark my words: If you're just starting you will not make that much by the end of the year -- what are they telling you?)
If you'd read the post above -- which you don't seem to have, since you seem unfamilliar with even one point I make there -- you'll see that I'm not saying it's impossible to make money. Instead, I argue it's an immoral way to do it, if you happen to believe it's wrong to get ahead by screwing other people.
Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them.
From your own statement, it seems you're a person who does not hold such morals. As I said above, there's not much we can do to shame you -- you'd screw someone over for a buck, and there's nothing I'm going to be able to do to change your mind or dissaude you on that point.
All we can do is hope the best for those you intend to exploit in this manner, and hope they have the common sense to look here or elsewhere on the Internet before they put themselves in your greedy hands.
Visitors: This is what your would-be Quixtar sponsor, or their upline, is really like. They seem nice, but this is how they really think. You have been warned.
Nathan: Thank you for being an object lesson.
Ok, so you made me out to be a bad guy. Good job. Now let me clarify a few things for you. Maybe I might just stay on track this time.
Let's just say that I sign a contract with a manufacturer that says he will only provide me and anyone I see fit with the product he makes. So I take that product out and start marketing it. I get people to buy the product and I start to make money from it.
So now I go to my friends and I let them sell the product as well as long as they give me a small percentage of what they make. Now me and my friends are all making money off of this product. I hope I haven't strayed from the moral path yet. Then one of my friends comes up to me and tells me that he knows a couple of people that would be able to do this as well. So I let these people start to market this product as well. Now why shouldn't my friend make a percentage off of them if he was the one that found them. It would be wrong of me to take that money from them. So I let my friend get these people started.
I only get a percentage from what my friends make. Let's just say I get 2% of what they do. Now lets say that they make $5000 in their first month. I make $100 from them. And why shouldn't I? I gave them the opportunity. They get $4900 that month and I got $100. They are making more than I am. So how am I such a bad guy? Everyone is making a profit that joined this business with me. And I am making a profit. Wouldn't you say that that would generate wealth?
Now explain to me how this is any different from the Quixtar plan. Explain how this does not generate wealth for all parties envolved. You don't have to buy or use the product yourself, but if you do then that gives credibility to your business and your product. It is just good marketing strategy.
And those books and tapes and functions that you people keep going on and on about. THEY ARE ALL OPTIONAL. You don't have to attend a single one of them. You don't have to read a single book or even listen to a single damn tape. Excuse the language. You don't have to spend all that money to go to fuctions. These things just help to set you into the mindset of a business professional.
Now I hope that I stayed on track enough for you this time. In hindsight I realize that I did indeed lose the train of thought that I intended on following in my other posts. I apologize for this. I have a problem focusing on something for any amount of time.
Nathan,
I'm not saying buying and selling, and even taking a cut are somehow immoral. If you haven't picked this up already, I'm a capitalist.
The business plan you describe, if I understand it right (you don't specify this, so I have to guess) is based upon marketing your new product to the general public.
For example, Creative Memories, Pampered Chef, or Avon works like this: people become salespeople in their homes, invite friends over, show them the product, and take a cut. Their primary intent is convince their friends to become consumers of the product in question.
This is not how Quixtar works.
In the Quixtar "plan", what is being sold is primarily the plan itself. People are not mainly being persuaded to become consumers, but salespeople.
Again, there's this little, tiny entity called the external customer which is nearly completely missing from the Quixtar picture.
The more it costs you to sell your product, the less you'll make. Thus, in a normal business, economic pressures tend to try to sell as much as possible using as few salespeople as possible, because sales is an expense.
This is the opposite of Quixtar, which is trying to increase it's "sales force" because it makes money from sales, not from the the non-selling public.
Second, when you give back 2%, you are essentially paying your sales force. Even the people at the bottom will show a profit. But Quixtar functions by taking money from the lowest level of the 'sales' force.
Third, I'm assuming people are buying your product for it's own sake. For example generally people buy Avon products because they like them. I'm assuming the same is true with your new gizmo.
But people don't buy from Quixtar primarily because they like the product. If that were true, lots of people would sign up even if they didn't want to be an IBO.
Instead, just like with a chain letter, IBOs buy products from Quixtar primarily because of the hope someday they'll be on the "upline" end of it. They're buying into a "system" in hopes of netting those upline payments.
And, just like with the chain letter, such a system only works as long as there are a lot of "losers" for each winner produced.
Again, think of this as being similar to a "chain letter" which uses product purchases to "launder" the upline payments.
Also, and this is less important, but still worth noting: You're probably creating a new product. Again, I assume people are buying your product for it's own sake.
But Quixtar doesn't really create any new products. A long time ago, when they were Amway, their main thrust was to market "better" soaps. (Why this still isn't a net gain is descrbed in the post above.) But since then, they've noticed it works just as well -- if not better -- when you sell everyday things you can buy elsewhere.
Finally -- and this is just a restatement of other points -- but you are creating value: People are buying your product because they want it. In contrast, IBOs buy from Quixtar primarily because there's this system of upline payments going on, and their willing to play the odds in the hopes of moving from net "loser" (low-level IBO) to "winner" (high-level IBO).
So there are many, signficant differences between what you describe and Quixtar. And those differences are why I'm here, writing this.
And why you are, too.
A lot of what you say is probably true and it all generally makes sense. A lot of the uplines in this business are probably the way you make them out to be. But I am not, and never intend to become that way. Trust me, I know about greedy people. However, the way that you describe the Quixtar plan is not the way I intend my part of the business to go.
I have found a lot of very good items in the Quixtar site that you really can't get anywhere else. Such as their new XS Energy drink. You can't find anything like it out there. It is the healthiest energy drink that I have ever seen and unlike all the others it actually works for me, and many others that I have had try it. On top of that it actually tastes good as well.
Note that this is not a sales pitch, even though it did sound like it. I meant it as an example. With just the XS line you could market that and make all the money that they are describing to you at the plan. That is what my section of this business is going to be based upon. Not trying to get friends and family to join and then just profit off of them.
So the "Quixtar Plan" is going to create wealth for me and my friends, and do it morally. Sure it might cause my part to build slower than the rest, but in the end it will all turn out for the better. And you never really addressed the fact that all the books and functions and things are optional. But that is beside the point I am trying to make here.
Sure I will show people that the way to make a lot of money is to franchise, but I am also going to make a point of getting everyone that franchises with me to market the best products that are in the Quixtar supplier like madmen.
By the way, I only pull in about 14-15000 a year at my current job. So just the platinum level will make me more money than I am making now. I have lived in a low income envirement all my life and even had to give up going to college to help support my family. But that doesn't mean that I am going to break the morals that I DO have in order to make more money. That is why I only make the amount I just mentioned. I refused to go into management at Wal-Mart because you can only hold that job by virtually slave driving the workers.
So, yeah, I stayed a grunt at the place I dispise because I have bills to pay and I won't sacrafice my morals, or anymore of my time, for that crap company. So just keep an eye out for my end of this business, cause I plan on doing this the right way. Not the easy way. As a matter of fact there is one of the open-meetings tomorrow night that I am not going to because I have to go out and actually market one of the better products that I mentioned.
So now I am going to do the one thing that I never planned on doing at this particular sight. Please don't take this the wrong way.
[Tim: Information deleted. No advertising here.]
So go a head and bash me now for doing that. But the reason that it is there is for anyone that wants to help me show the punks that started Quixtar how to truly run a franchise, and do it the truly moral way. You say that it is morally and ethically wrong. So help me truly do something about it. We can't stop it, but we are the next generation. Let's start doing this thing right.
Nathan,
First, thanks for the switch in tactics. I'd rather have a frank, honest, nice discussion (or disagreement) with you. Things go so much faster and more pleasantly this way.
In terms of your solicitation to ask people to harm themselves and help profit you though this "system" ;-) -- No, I'm not offended in the slightest.
But since I have a strict "no advertising" policy (I just deleted about twenty ads here today alone, so it's nothing personal) I've deleted your IBO information. If someone wants to contact you about it, they can send you e-mail using the address you've posted.
Now, regarding your specific suggestions, I have answered you here. Comment there if you want to discuss that topic, or comment here if you feel you haven't yet conceded that Quixtar generates no wealth and will yet be able to produce a counterargument.
Thanks kindly!
It seems many have been brainwashed Into the Quixtar cult. I fell into it for about 2 weeks then I realized this parttime business was going to turn into a full time lifestyle of freaks and psyco's. Not to mentioned my upline showing up at my job in order to make sure I would be at a meeting, as well as the stalking phone calls urging me to set up a meeting IN MY HOME with other future victums(my friends and family) I don't think so. I went to one meeting in a hotel and that left a bad taste in my mouth. SHOW THE PLAN over and over again they chanted SHOW THE PLAN I am so glad that I caught on to this scam before getting burned. So I am out $150 bucks I could handle that. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Nathan, or any IBO out there, can I please give you a suggestion?
XS might be the greatest product on earth but there isn't much point retailing it. How much money you can make? A meager retail markup on it, IFF you can retail Q-items at retail price.
Shoot for the high PV items. Go for Dbl X or eSpring. Even CC or long distance is a much better idea. If you have Mortgage Intelligence down there in US, 500 PV!
Do it as a business. XS is the company of some diamond on executive. That’s why it is heavily promoted but think about YOUR business. Put money in YOUR pocket.
Unless you wanna ‘drink’ your PV. I dunno but I don’t like XS. It upsets the stomach, specially cranberry one. I almost like EVERY thing that tastes sweet but I hate it.
Marissa: Good luck and congratulations. Had I been as smart as you are, I might have saved 100s of hours and $9000 that I lost in one year.
You should ask for a refund. You may not need to talk to your sponsor to return the product kit. You can return it online via Quixtar website.
The intro kit, the one that your upline might have given you, return it as well. If they don't take it back, call Quixtar and complain. You can return business material according to BSMAA within 90 days.
Please let me know if you need any further assistance.
Quixtar is a member of the BBB and is a legitimate company. The products are alot better quality than what you would find at say wal-mart or etc. Yes, just like any other company out there, you have your jerks that ruin the reputation of the company but there are also alot of great people in Quixtar too. I know because my upline does care. He goes out of his way to make sure that in life, I am taken care of. If my car breaks down or if I need help with something, he will help me without hesitation!!!!!
Quixtar does require work but that is stated in the "PLAN". It does take time to build any business up and it takes work. If you want to question Quixtar, try other companies out there on the market (you can find lots of them online) and just see how good they are. They all promise the world but none if any results are actually made and if they are, the company is not reputable. I have tried other companies only to find out that they are not honest and are junk. Quixtar is the only company that I have been in for more that 1 year that has proven itself to me. The products are the best, the money is real, friends are for life, and if you ever have any problems, let them know and they WILL help you out as long as you don't have an attitude problem yourself....
Chuck,
Quixtar is full with GREAT ppl.
Many places where the big money is have most intolerable ppl. like stock market etc.
Having good ppl does not make a business profitable. Does it? Else we Canadians will be rich and America will be poorest: P
Other companies, mlm. Yes, many 'online' are plain BS.
Quixtar: check out quixtarblog.com, amquix.info.
How many ppl make money in Quixtar?
Millionaires in American: every 4-6%
Millionaires by Quixtar: .017% of total IBO force
Source: http://www.amquix.info
Where you better be?
If you need friends and can't find without Quixtar.....you got some serious issues buddy!
Quixtar is a member of the BBB and is a legitimate company
Chuck, my friend. I was there and said the same thing. Reality is, there are lawsuits against many LOS (lines of sponsorships). Do you know, CAMs have been terminated? in 2001, 6 diamond ships were terminated, 12 resigned as a protest. Quixtar DID NOT took them back!
There is investigation going on in UK and north Carolina. Amway paid $25 M fine to canada on tax frauds case. Canada refused to count amway as a business. As it's not, its just a way to lose money. They proved it on court.
Do you want an easy to get job who pays more than Quixtar? Try Pizza Dilevery.
Thank you for your articles, and yes, the incredibly aggressive feedback is always a feature of multi-level-marketing drones. I think that they know that it is all a house of cards, a "pyramid upside down" even, and that if more of the general public see through the schemes, they will all totally collapse and there will be no more "suckers" to replace all the dropouts down the line. Someone once told me that they would create "passive income streams" and I made the simple observation that a "passive income stream" in a marketing distribution network must mean that the end-users are paying more for nothing. Rod - Australia
I have really enjoyed the dialogue on this site. I have relatives who are tied up in the Quixtar 'plan'.
The disturbing part of this whole scheme is that they will never compete with the big retailers. We have been solicited to buy from Quixtar and said 'no'. For one reason....cost. The other is the false sense of security it builds in the person selling these products. People at the top get rich, not because of the products, but because of the 'pavement pounders' adding people to the pyramid.
The comments about geographical location of major retailers is a good one (i.e. McD's, BK, Wal-Mart, Target). Flooding the market with Quixtar reps works against you - learn from the companies actually making money! (see in parentheses above)
There is another hidden message here. Family can get hurt in several ways. Attending meetings alienates your children (assuming the heavy-duty followers get involved in this), expectations of family and friends to buy. I could go on and on, but those who have tried and failed or just people with common sense can also see. IBO's no need to comment, I am pretty sure I know your opinion (but will welcome the debate!)
I have never been involved and certainly never would (in Quixtar) because I have never heard one good argument that it makes solid business sense.
I will give one compliment.....Whoever is in charge of the brain-washing in Quixtar does a great job. I certainly would like to see this power used for power of positive rather than negative.
My understanding of a MLM is that it offers an opportunity for an individual to own their own business by becoming a distributor of a product. You may argue the "business owner" but consider: The individual has rights to distribute product, they have the right to advertise within guidelines, they have the right to generate revenue, they have the right to "hire" new distributors for the product, and they also incur expenses in doing so.
Let's say for my arguement's sake that you agree that it can be looked at as a legitimate self owned business in that one is a distributor of a product that incurs expenses and is in charge of the means to generate revenue within certain guidlines. I think that statement could apply to most businesses.
Now, the fact that the individual has the opportunity to generate revenue, the amount of revenue depends on his success. We all know the real money is in signing up new distributors and getting them to generate revenue or spend, but as long as each individual has equal rights and opportunities it shouldn't matter what portion of the revenue comes from product sales or distributor spending. The key point I'm trying to make is that each individual has the same opportunity to generate wealth for himself by how hard he works. If he has to work 60 hours a week for 40K a year, then that's his way of doing business. If the next guy works 70 hours a week for 30K a year, that's the way he has done his business. Each person has the freedom to continue or quit. If the upline is being forceful, then that is another issue. As you mentioned the upline is definitely making money by the lower levels spending. Almost sounds like a unionized labor force.
Finally, taking all of what I said about each individuals rights, obligations, and freedoms, there is still the issue of the whole idea being of no wealth to the economy. The wealth of the economy is also dependent on consumer spending. In order to spend, one must have money. In order to have money, one must generate revenue. It doesn't have to be the convenient store down the road or the Best Buy Company on the hill. It is everyone who is putting money in their pocket and taking it to the bank or trading it for goods. Same goes for those selling stuff on ebay.
I am not a MLM person. I work for a bank as a programmer. I just wanted to post my thoughts.
Good stuff brian, one of the most logical I've ever read in favour of MLM. Me programmer too and can sniff the logic :)
Ok here is my observation: MLM was a great idea in say 50s - 70s when catalogue shopping was endorsed by big corps as well:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23384&highlight=sears#23384
Then MLM could thrive as their product could compete. Now wal-mart etc. kills with volume. MLM distribution or ecommerce as such (aside software and porn) could not beat wal-mart, at least in the daily consumables. And it's a fact. So it's an uphill battle from the get go.
Here is how it goes wrong. To cover the lack of customer problem, buy for urself model emerges. That's is illegal!!! Gov say at least 50% sales to non-mlmers. And gov ain't stupid. Lazy to catch, yes, but not stupid. Biggest MLM Amway / Quixtar has 70% sales to non-IBO rule.
Buy (expensive than walmart) for yourself model could work only if the carrot is hung in front. Means need promise and motivation. Bam, big $$$, tools.
Try eading http://www.merchantsofdeception.com or http://formerdiamond.com
Bottom line: MLM is expired IMO in 70s. Right now money is either to start an MLM or sell ur product to them or sell motivations. So yes there is a money. Just don't become a rep.
Here is another take. I've done MLM. I know it aint easy if you want to make as much money as say a low paying job. You have to be:
- 24 hour on call support / motivation. My upline is!
- Accountant
- Driver
- Marketing (Show the plan)
- Sales (Clients)
- CEO / COO
A person who is moderately good at all above skills is quite likely to make money in MLM.
BUT
That person could make money in many other fields.
He sure won't be doing a low pay job. At least not long :) Unless president start burning another 20B dollar / week in some self imposed war.
So my conculusion is this:
MLM is for suckers and fools.
i was in quixtar, and it seemed funny, when an "upline" gave me any product to try from, he always charged me for it, and taught me to charge everyone also, ( just for a sample ) i didnt do it thought, i was also taught to give the plan everyday, and to contact 10 people everyday, and to listen to at a tape once a day, thats too much stuff to do, while i work and go to school. and my uplines never cared, they often put me down for not being able to go to the meetings, i was often told " well, thats your choice, if you dont want to do things the right way , they way they tell us to do it, you might as well quit" "also, that i was pushed in to buying over 300 points worth of merchandise, becuase thats what the DIAMONDS do, so i guess i had to do this too,i had to get a second job in the morning on my days off so i can make enought money to make 300 points
i quit now, i quit at a 15% , i almost lost friends becuase of this, and i went into debt, and the funny thing was, when i quit, i was even told by my upline, " well you know the product is good, keep buying the product and promoting the products" i will proboly sell all my tapes and books etc, to the uplines, they blindy follow things anyways, and might make all my money back about 600 bucks minimum. for anyways that wants to join quixtar or amways please dont listen to me or to any quixtar guy, think it over and follow your gut, becuase in the end, your going to pay your bills and take care of your famaly and your life, they wont take care of you at all.
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I just had someone try to sell me this BS. They told me it does not matter that I had a graduate business degree from a top university -- they told me that sometimes educated people were too educated to recognize such a good opportunity as Quixtar.
Anyway you may want to reference "Economics In One Lesson" -- a book every quixtar wanna-be should read first. Nothing to do with MLM or pyramids or Amway, but just good-old-fashioned economics for dummies through stories like the ones you tell in the post.
I just had someone try to sell me this BS. They told me it does not matter that I had a graduate business degree from a top university -- they told me that sometimes educated people were too educated to recognize such a good opportunity as Quixtar.
Anyway you may want to reference "Economics In One Lesson" -- a book every quixtar wanna-be should read first. Nothing to do with MLM or pyramids or Amway, but just good-old-fashioned economics for dummies through stories like the ones you tell in the post.
Help! You know, that pyramid diagram of how the business runs. You know, rich guy on top, 1 million slaves at the bottom. Just like Egypt, no? Well, it's not a pyramid....
It's more like a funnel, people are 'persuaded' to jump into this 'funnel' because, the IBO is like, "Hey, look down there? You see, money!!! Great, huh? I don't want to force you to do something you don't want to do, just remember - Down there holds the key to your happiness, success, finacial freedom, blah-this, blah-that, sometimes we have to take risks. Well, whatever you decide."
Hmm....Happiness, success, finacial freedom, wow! Just down there? I mean, I just have to take a risk, and leap forward, and this PLAN will bring me happiness, success, and financial freedom? AWESOME! What more is there to think about?
Off I go!
and ..well, you know, towards the bottom of the funnel, you begin to realize...there's nothing but cement, nothing to give way to your "dreams", and well -- it's a very gruesome ending.
What about those successful millionairs?
Well, heh, you see -- that man, all the way at the top of the funnel, the one laughing at you. Like dumping pennies into a penny bank.
I LOVE QUIXTAR...IT IS THE BEST. I NOW MAKE $2 EVERY 14HRS. BEFORE, I WAS A BUM ON THE STREET. NOW, I AM NOT. I HAVE $2. JOIN QUIXTAR. THANK YOU.
Has anyone noticed that in all of these Quixtar blogs all of the pro-Quixtar people write incredibly long posts about every 7 minutes defending themselves as if Quixtar is their mother. This is kind of weird and does resemble cult like activity. Why do all of these people care so much and get so offended? How come all of these tapes sound more like Christian testimonies of how much peoples' lives have changed rather than professional informative material?
Anonymous,
Those are thought-provoking observations...
Has anyone noticed that in all of these Quixtar blogs all of the pro-Quixtar people write incredibly long posts about every 7 minutes...
Actually, some of Quixtar's detractors (myself, certainly) also end up writing long posts. For example, it's easy to say something like: "Quixtar is just like Walmart." It's a bit harder to explain the differences.
Imran, though, is pretty good at keeping it terse.
Why do all of these people care so much and get so offended?
I've often wondered that myself: and that happens on other topics, too, not just Quixtar.
I'll be having an interchange with some guy who seems obsessed with some topic, is arguing and reasoning in circles, redefining words, etc. They'll be totally obsessed with it, yet completely uninterested in reconsidering anything should you be able to show new evidence.
It's like they're trying to justify themselves, or something. I sometimes wonder if that's what happens when a person knows, deep inside, that they're wrong -- so they try to "defeat" you by any means possible (including illogic) in order, really, to convince themselves.
How come all of these tapes sound more like Christian testimonies of how much peoples' lives have changed rather than professional informative material?
It's even weirder than that. I was talking with a girl I knew from church who was trying to get me into Quixtar, and she was decribing it in terms you'd usually use for the church itself. "It's like a family. It's a network of people working together for a common cause." (Etc.)
I'm thinking like, "Uh, as a Christian, isn't that kind of the role that church should be filling in your life?" Mind you, this was a fairly decent and lively church, too.
So perhaps Quixtar is a kind of substitute religion, where instead of God, you have the Diamonds, instead of charity work or evangelism, you have signing new IBOs up, instead of church services and fellowship afterwards, you have the weekly business meeting, and instead of tithing or service, the charitable impulse is redirected towards "giving" time and money to the greater good of the group.
I suppose you could say there's 'scripture' too, in the form of tapes, book of the month, and whatever gets passed down from on high.
I have a question which I hope can be answered by some IBO who has been in Quixtar(AND BY THAT I MEAN WHO HASN'T BEEN IN AMWAY). I want to know how many IBOs have gone atleast Diamond after joining Quixtar. It's not a challenge, it's a question.
Sandy -
I'm looking for that answer since about 2 years.
My findings are.... 0.
There is not a single (known) Diamond, who was not in amway, i.e. signed after 1999.
What's ironic is, it's a 2-5 year diamond plan. Should be 100s if not 1000s of Diamonds by now. ( And if there were, I won't have any problem. It just shows Q doesn't work, it's all smoke and mirrors).
All I heard from IBOs is
It's definitely not a cult(repetively)
It is still legal (priceless)
Please let me know if you or any one find out.
Imran,
I was debating quixtar and this one guy said he personally knew 7 quixtar only diamonds. I asked him to name them and so here's the list of 7 quixtar only diamonds:
Wish I'd read all this before. The "business" was presented to me as a way of getting some of the money back from our monthly household spending. Like a discount. Sounds good. If I like the system, I can recommend it to friends - but I went into it expecting not to recommend it if it wasn't beneficial to me personally. In sum, I thought the system itself would have inherent value, that it WOULD contribute to society as an apparently more efficient shopping mechanism. The guy was so excited, that had to be the magnitude of the Quixtar invention.
From the sounds of the presentation - and the printed material given to me - I thought I would be getting 6-10% aff my monthly bill between the "retailer's" wholesale discount and the PV bonuses.
I was given a temporary username and password to check out Quixtar before I signed up. But didn't realize how much it was a restricted access until after I signed on the dotted line. Things you can't see till you are already IBO: Of the "more than a million" products, most of them have very low PV. You have to restrict yourself to certain health products and makeup to get anywhere near the first 3% discount, without getting more IBOs signed up after you.
Then I saw that the 3% isn't calculated on the purchase price, but on a previously unrevealed figure called the BV (business value), which, wouldn't you know, is only anywhere near the price of an item if you restrict yourself to the same health products and makeup. Stuff I buy miniscule amounts of every year. So, my shopping cart totalled well over $350, but the BV only amounted to less than $170. I figured up the bonus coming to me - about 1% - IF someone came in downline of me as an IBO and started ordering some products, because $350 of stuff didn't get me the 100 points required for the first so-called 3%.
For those potential IBOs interested in some of the math that is hidden from them, here are several of the items in my cart (many of them are bulk items, which is the only way many of them are sold on Quixtar):
Item Price PV/BV
Raisin Bran $23.92 3.93/8.66
ChocoChip Cookies $18.00 6.04/13.30
Freezer Bags $20.24 3.33/7.33
Wh Wheat Spaghetti $23.00 3.78/8.33
Paper Towels $30.36 4.99/10.99
Shampoo $6.60 2.40/6.70
Toothbrushes $25.20 4.24/9.33
Spaghetti Sauce $23.00 3.78/8.33
Canned Chicken $36.80 6.05/13.33
May y'all find this informative.
BTW, my sponsor has offered to refund my initial fee but wants to sit down and talk with me first and explain why his presentation and the TeamINA materials weren't fraudulent. He told me he can't tell prospective IBOs everything up front because, "most people will say no."
If he convinces me, I'll let you know.
Okay, my sponsor says using the Quixtar Visa card is the way to get 100 points if you are not going to have other IBOs come in after you. I checked it out and came up with the following fine details:
By using the credit card you get 2.4% PV and 3% BV for each dollar of purchases at Quixtar.com and 1.6% PV and 2% BV for each dollar spent elsewhere during a billing cycle.
Assuming a billing cycle that matches a point cycle, roughly the beginning of every month, the credit card does help.
Purchasing the kinds of products I would actually use (see my shopping cart above), I would have to spend $580 a month on the Quixtar site to earn 100 points or the bottom-rung bonus of so-called 3%. With the credit card, I would only have to spend $475.
(If I took the credit card to other places besides Q, I would need to spend $2,500.00 every month in addition to the more than $350 I spend in my shopping cart in the hypothetical order in my post above, just to make 100 points.)
So, if I get so much stuff from Q in one month that I hardly have a place to store it and really shouldn't go shopping nonperishables again for another 3 months, I would attain my 3% "discount" off the BV attached to my $475 order. The BV at the average % BV for the kinds of things I buy (%44), in this hypothetical order, comes to 228 including the BV earned by using the credit card.
My bonus check after all this consumption (cough): $6.84
The actual % this is of my $475 spent is not 3%, it's 1.4%
And don't forget, that $7 is taxable income.
Somebody pass me the scissors. I think I'd rather clip coupons.
In the TeamINA recruiting booklet there is a chart, Performance Bonus Schedule. It includes a column for PV and a column for Bonus %. It does not include a column for BV, which you would have no reason to think existed.
A little caption on the page says: "At 25% purchase $200-$400 and receive $50-$100 back."
There is no asterisk nor explanation that you would have to buy little besides sports drinks and laundry detergent to get UP TO 25% back.
Not much substance to create motivational energy about, IMO.
Good for you Jo. You discovered what many people don't initially see, that the quixtar opportunity may not be quite as good as they way it is presented.
For any who would like to do a real price comparison between Quixtar's products (IBO price) and similar products from other sources, before joining up, look at the following information next to the Quixtar product online or in the catalog:
There is a very lengthy "product" number beginning with P. It looks like this:
P1600B5555Y4105
Notice the final numbers following the Y. That Y stands for You, as in Your price if you are an IBO. Add a decimal before the final two digits and there you have what you would actually pay if you decided to become an IBO.
So,
P1600B5555Y4105
equals $41.05
IBO price.
I was debating quixtar and this one guy said he personally knew 7 quixtar only diamonds. I asked him to name them and so here's the list of 7 quixtar only diamonds:
The title of this thread is true. Quixtar generates no wealth. For every diamond or emerald, you will always have hundreds if not thousands of downline IBOs who are just getting started, working their way up, or hanging onto the dream.
Those downline purchases of tools and products is what makes the few "big pin" IBOs wealthy.
Brian: I have never been involved and certainly never would (in Quixtar) because I have never heard one good argument that it makes solid business sense.
I will give one compliment.....Whoever is in charge of the brain-washing in Quixtar does a great job. I certainly would like to see this power used for power of positive rather than negative.
Joe: Good analysis
Dan: Maybe I am missing one of your "points". If you are saying that Quixtar adds no wealth because you could have got the same or similar already and for cheaper, then why are all the retail stores and manufacturers out there in the same category? After all there are already the same or similar products available. Wouldn't life be very dull and very controlling with only one store, one manufacturer, of like products. It is about choice. It is about competitive pricing. I will grant you Quixtar is more expensive so therefore to me I wouldn't buy their products. But it is nice to live in a country where chice is available. As far as upline payments, when I purchase a product anywhere, I don't give much thought about where the money goes and how much goes to each area. I only know I have to pay a certain amount for what I am getting. What happened to Quixtar was the greed by those at the upper levels in convincing those below them that the purchase of their "training materials" would make them successful. If people would just do their research, use their heads a lot would be avoided. I refuse to believe however that all direct sales, MLM's etc are bad. Some are not, just as there is good and bad in every walk of life. Maybe you say try the traditional way instead. 95% of all small businesses fail in the first year, often at tremendous losses to those just trying to better their lives a little. Why not do a justice and when you do find a direct sales that is worthy of praise that you do that as well. Why not take your views and email them to the direct sales association?
Quixtar is a business. And no matter what business you decide to do you will need to sell a product or service. With most companies you can be profitable in 1 month with a retail customer base of 6-10 people. At that point you will want to duplicate yourself and recruit someone to help you build your business. Now McDonald's is not going to sell a storefront to someone give them the keys then walk away, and neither should you. You will need to invest some time and help train your new downline, getting thier new business up and running to be profitable, Then you recruit the next person and do the same. It takes alot of work no matter what business your in if you want to be successful. It's not always a matter of price alot of people like and purchase Quixtar products, and alot of people like and purchase drinks from McDonald's that they would pay alot less for at your local discount club. It's not an auto-pilot do nothing get rich quick pyramid scheme: It's a business and if you treat it like one you will succeed!
Best Regards, and good luck in whatever you do.
David said: Quixtar is a business. And no matter what business you decide to do you will need to sell a product or service.
Joe says: Then why do so many groups teach "buy from yourself and get others to copy you"?
Hello, Joe
I don't feel the buy from yourself and get others to copy you is really in your best interest. What if McDonald's bought all thier own hamburgers and got all thier franchise owners to do the same, do you think they would be the business they are today? Do you think those franchise owners would be happy? If you use the buy from yourself model you are just locking yourself and your downline in as customers. The Quixtar business works, and with any business large or small you need to make a profit. Then duplicate making a profit and help your downline do the same. You will have alot less unhappy people and alot more people willing to help build your business, if you are up front, truely willing to help, and honest with them. It's a business and if you treat it like one you will succeed!
Best Regards,
David
To get back to one of the themes in the original post, here is a short story…
Long ago, in a place beyond the stars that we see, in the void of space, in a time before Quixtar and Wal-Mart, a new island world was created. And the people of this world set forth and multiplied, they were known as the tree people, the rock people, and the fruit people. Now some of the rock people, known as the peddlers, traded with the tree people, and the fruit people. The peddlers would buy a piece of fruit for 2 pebbles and sell it for 4, and everyone enjoyed the service the peddlers provided and life was good. Then one day a few rock people banded together and conquered half of the fruit people, making them work long hours and forcing them to take 1 pebble for their piece of fruit. Having a good supply of fruit they decided to open a fruit stand named Rock-Mart, and sold the fruit for 3 pebbles passing the savings on to their customers. Now all the people loved the fruit stand, and started to buy at Rock-Mart all the time.
The other half of the fruit people and the peddlers unable to sell any fruit, who used to make 2 pebbles each fruit, had to go to work for Rock-Mart at wage of 3 pebbles per day. The very same wage they paid to the employees of their axe stand. Now things settled down, the peddlers could buy 1 piece of fruit a day, and everyone was happy. Along came a couple of tree people they wanted to make more pebbles, they formed a group called it the Tree-Way, they wanted to be a part of the Rocknet and formed a sister group, they called it Roxtar. Now Tree-Way purchased fruit from the other half of the fruit people for 2 pebbles each, and subcontracted the sales to a couple of peddlers, providing all the material and system to retail the fruit at 4 pebbles. Furthermore, those subcontractors could build their individual work force by subcontracting out some of the work, while getting a small percentage of the profit. The peddlers now have a way to make more than 3 pebbles a day, and some build their business up and make 6 pebbles a day, and everyone is happy. Then one day one of the peddlers thinks 6 pebbles is not enough, if I could only get them to buy more fruit, if I could teach them to buy from themselves, and give them a dream of fast pebbles and no need to have customers, if I could sell them some tapes to keep the dream going, I could make 10 pebbles a day and I wouldn’t even have to help them or show them how to run the business. Now all the people at the base of this peddler are just customers with a dream. However, the other peddler had customers that liked doing business with him, and liked the fruit he had to offer even though it was more expensive. This peddler was in business and made a profit for his efforts, and he showed his subcontractors to make a profit. Even though a lot of the pebbles passed up he had the opportunity to make a lot more than he could at Rock-mart. Now who truly made the world a better place? Some of the people got hurt; however, the Roxtar IBO has a choice to run his business as he sees fit as long he follows the rules of conduct., and the guidelines set forth to protect the company. You can fast talk people, and get them to believe in a get rich quick dream while they spend their time and money, or you can treat it like a business to make a profit and help other do the same. You don’t have to sell a customer the whole tree farm either, just one piece of fruit that they enjoy buying will do. Hand them your business card with you Rocknet store site, and let them decide if they want to buy more, then send them an email thanking them once in awhile when they do. I believe this business can create wealth and you can help others, people are going to spend money on consumables, it’s up you if you want just a little piece of the pie, or starve and complain while you let the owners of Rock-Mart eat the whole pie.
Kindest Regards,
David
Have a Great Day, and Good Luck in whatever you do.
Once upon a time, there were fruit people who made a nice living selling fruit for two pebbles.
One day some evil "rock" people came up with a great scheme. They told the fruit people that they could sell more fruit and make more money if only they would buy their foolproof teaching
system. Howevre, the foolproof teaching system costed them three pebbles, one more than they earned for selling fruit.
The rock people were questioned and came up with a brilliant answer. They said the losses would only be temporary and "soon" they would sell so much fruit, these minor details wouldn't matter.
David wrote: Hello, Joe
I don't feel the buy from yourself and get others to copy you is really in your best interest.
Joe says: Then why do so many groups teach it?
Hello, Joe
There is a team culture of white shirt, red tie people in this world that just look at you and see dollar signs. The questions are do you follow them, or do you step back and look at what it really takes to make a home business work. Do you roll up your sleeves, make the retail sales, follow up with your customers, and show your down line how to make the retail sales, or do you just get another sucker into your pyramid!
Best Wishes,
David
David - quixtar's own numbers .23 customers per IBO. 4 IBOs sharing one customer. Doesn't sound like many are doing what you describe. It fits in perfectly with the groups that teach "buy from yourself and get others to copy".
i was in quixtar or "team" and you are rrrrright
on baby. A very very small % of ibo's make any real money but wow, they sure spend it....tools asa they call it meeting...associations....products that cost 4 times walmart prices...cd of the week and book of the month......more products to push upline over the top...thanks Ibo's.....
I do very well in the mlm business, although it is not quixtar it is very close in structure. Now I can’t think of a better way off the top of my head, where you can spend as little as 20USD for a business, spend a minimum time investment of 30mins a day to build your business, and get the potential return on investment that this business offers. I am able to work this business when I feel like it, a lot of my business is done online and it is working for me even when I am out having fun. I have meet many new friends online , and for me building this business has been fun.
Best Wishes ,
David
David, are you profiting from selling product or by the losses of your downline?
Joe, I have retail sales from the Internet, I have retail customers, and I have people in my downline that have retail customers, if you read my other posts you will know what my position is on doing business. Now don't get me wrong I do buy product for myself, you have to believe in your product. The point that I have been trying to make is are you in business or are you a customer?
Ok, David, second question.
DO your retail profits (and your downline's) exceed the cost of thr tools/training they are paying for?
Joe, 75% of the tools/training to make money are provided for you by most mlm companies. Your main costs should be in marketing your mlm business. I like companies that provide fast start bonuses; they make a big difference in your bottom line. Plus I like companies that allow me to use the Internet. I spend 30 mins, sometimes more if I feel like it a day promoting my business online.
I spend a couple of hours a week with personal contacts and my downline. I spend 1 hour attending the weekly meetings on the phone. Sometimes things seem to happen slow, but over time your sales and your downline will grow. When your first starting out in an mlm such as quixtar you don't need to buy products to get commissions on a downline you don't have. You want to build a customer base to reach your pv goals. With a little time and effort you can build a nice business, as this is a business you build over time. Back to your question, Yes.
David,
How much retail profits do you make (approximately)?
I calculate (conservatively) if you have KATE, website cost, tape of the week, book of the month, local and major functions, gas, babysitter fees, and other incidentals, I would have to guess most IBOs spend about $150 a month or more on "business expenses".
Also, many quixtar products cost more than a comparable Costco or Walmart product - thus selling for full suggested retail price is difficult.
How many are in your group? I also know that by quixtar's own numbers - there is about 1 customer for every 4 IBOs.
Congratulations if you are the exception.
Joe, I am not in quixtar
I have researched their compensation plan, and figured it would be to time consuming for me to get started.
I have more than 1 mlm that I am working on and have built up multiple income streams.
None of them require tapes, book of the month, or local and major functions.
All of them have fast start bonuses.
20USD to 100USD for the sale of a premium package.
All of them can be marketed online, and don't require a lot of time.
I do most of my work from home on my computer.
I get an average of 4-6 people that join each month.
I make sure I am in profit within the first 3 months and if not- I don't invest any more time into it.
This is a statement from 1 of the mlm websites.
Average Earnings by Rank based on 2006 Form 1099-misc.
Title Average Earnings
MASTER $ 286,800.00
KEY $ 111,600.00
EXEC $ 62,200.00
SRCRD $ 40,400.00
CRD $ 22,800.00
DIR $ 10,500.00
People buy what they like and price is not always the issue.
If I was in quixtar and I am not, here is what I would do. 1. Find 10 customers by internet sales or personal contact.
Example: Retail PV BV Profit
01 p703b2040 23.99 7.03 20.40 6.00
02 p935b2715 28.35 9.35 27.15 7.09
03 p2435b706 78.05 24.35 70.65 19.51
04 p1550b450 53.25 15.50 45.00 13.31
05 p234b680y 8.50 2.34 6.80 2.13
06 p740b2145 39.95 7.40 21.45 9.99
07 p495b1435 15.85 4.95 14.35 3.96
08 p732b2125 24.99 7.32 21.25 6.25
09 p1040b301 32.70 10.40 30.15 8.18
10 p1115b324 33.75 11.15 32.40 8.84
Total 339.38 99.79 289.60 85.26
All sales are under 100USD
You have made your pv for bonuses and made 85.26
Your cost to be a quixtar IBO 4 dollars a month.
Add in a downline doing the same and you can multiply your time, efforts, and your income.
It can be done; however, quixtar has a very high level to make director 7500 pv, they don't have any fast start bonuses, and you would have to spend a lot of time not making very much money to get it going, I feel there are a lot better mlm's to spend your time and effort on.
It's not about being the exception, you have to be in business to make a profit. And your group leader should be helping you make money not helping you spend it.
To Your Success,
David
Joe, here are a couple of ways to get your customers.
JoeCool quixtar distributor.
high quality, health minded products for every lifestyle. To view my products or if you have an
interest in making an extra income from home.
click this link: [your quixtar website/joecool]
1. quixtar is an internet version of amway, you should be able to post your website to free classified and ezines with no troubles.
Post to a thousand or more sites.
I use a submitter takes 5 mins
don't use your quixtar site in safelists or email,
if you have people that you do business with and know then it is ok to send it to them with their permission.
2. place a local ad
JoeCool quixtar distributor in the [city] area.
high quality, health minded products for every lifestyle. To view my products or if you have an
interest in making an extra income from home.
call me at [your phone #] or
click this link: [your quixtar website/joecool]
You can have Free and paid ads out there working
for you 24/7 and you can do it all from home.
You only have to deal with people who are interested in what you have to offer, you don't have to use gas to drive around trying find someone who has no interest to show the plan.
Find some mentors that are truly willing to help you and have your best interest in mind.
If you would like to know more on this subject click on my name or send me an email.
Hope this helps,
David
David,
Yes, you have a website but it is password protected (requried by quixtar). So a browsing cutomer cannot make a purchase. Just advertise right? Wrong, you cannot advertise unless your ad is approved by quixtar.
And then secondly, who will buy my quixtar stuff when it costs half the price at Walmart or Costco?
Joe,
Is the website designed by quixtar? Is the website designed to sell products? If quixtar designed the website why is it password protected and why wouldn't they approve their own design?
Why would they give you a website you can't use?
I could understand them not letting you use a website not designed by quixtar until it was approved, but you should be able to let people know you are in business as an IBO and have quixtar products that they can buy from you.
Well Joe maybe I am wrong. The quixtar system looks workable...
But,
If quixtar wont let you advertise that you are a quixtar distributor and you can't tell anyone you have quixtar products for sale then I would have to say quixtar is not the business to be in.
On the subject of price, you have to compare what a product offers, just because the price is higher doesn't mean that people won't buy it.
Maybe they like the product.
You need to let people make their own decisions to buy what you have to sell. If you decide they are never going to buy it then they won't because you will never give them the chance.
Lets look at cars one is priced at 100,000 and one is priced at 10,000 both cars do the same thing they get you from one place to another.
And people are going to buy what they like.
If you have spent some time and effort building up a downline, 10 active members or more, I would contact quixtar and find out what kind of advertising you can do.
If you don't have anything to lose then maybe it is time to stop, and look for something that will work for you.
David (and Joe),
Pardon me for butting in here a moment.
David, if I felt Quixtar were economically "workable", I'd never have written a single word of warning about it. I don't warn people about Mary Kay, Pampered Chef, or a zillion other franchise or MLM opportunities.
Perhaps I can explain better by answering a few specific questions you raise...
The quixtar system looks workable...
Your question should be: "What kind of income am I likely to make?" -- just as with any other business opportunity. The high rate of IBO turnover (well over 50% drop each year) and extremely low average income (just $115 a month -- not counting any expenses or taxes) suggests this is an extremely poor business opportunity -- lower than any minimum wage job you'd care to take.
If quixtar wont let you advertise...
It's absolutely true: Quixtar doesn't let you advertise. I explain why here (basicly, because they need to keep you in the business, buying product, as you "prospect" (deliberately inefficiently) for leads).
... you can't tell anyone you have quixtar products for sale ...
You can, actually. You just have to do it by word of mouth. You have to hope your family and friends are just waiting to "join up", and, failing that, hang out at bookstores and pretend to make friends with your future prospects.
I would have to say quixtar is not the business to be in...
You would be wise to notice that.
... just because the price is higher doesn't mean that people won't buy it.
You're absolutely right here, David. Quixtar's whole marketing strategy is to convince IBOs they're getting extra "quality". Since "quality" is often hard to detect, and hard to put a number figure on it, IBOs will often use that to rationalize the higher prices they're paying.
But very often, we all get by just fine with less of that "quality."
For example, Quixtar's laundry detegent is outrageously expensive -- but it's supposed to deliver many more loads and a typical detergent, and (allegedly) be more environmentally friendly. Yet it costs vastly more per load (3 to 5 times, depending on who did the estimate), and cleans well or quite poorly, depending on which year you checked.
(One former IBO found that Quixtar detergent stopped his drain from backing up. Some other good testimonials there. But many other Quixtar other products are average or even not very good.)
So yes, if you can convince people they need this extra (and often invisible) "quality", it can be a useful selling angle. But sadly, the people attracted to Quixtar (those who already aren't making very much) are the last people whose budgets should be spent on extra "quality" they almost surely don't need.
Hi, Tim
Glad you joined us, I enjoy reading your random observations and highly respect your opinions.
I would like to further discuss some of your points to truly be fair about it. First of all I want to let you know that in no way am I promoting or saying that quixtar is a business opportunity that people should join. This is just my opinion on quixtar as business model, and their business practices.
“The quixtar system looks workable...
Your question should be: "What kind of income am I likely to make?" -- just as with any other business opportunity. The high rate of IBO turnover (well over 50% drop each year) and extremely low average income (just $115 a month -- not counting any expenses or taxes) suggests this is an extremely poor business opportunity -- lower than any minimum wage job you'd care to take.”
“What kind of income am I likely to make?” Purely looking at the pay plan, building a customer base, keeping focused on making a profit, and doing sound ethical business practices I believe your likely to make a decent income. However, I am an outsider looking in and quixtar sounds like in has some real internal issues that could prevent you from doing this. In addition the plan does not offer many benefits for the new IBO to put his time and effort into building a quixtar business; therefore, my big question would be: “Is it worth my time?”.
The only points that I have been trying to make throughout this thread are:
1. Consider the motives of your upline- you are in business to make a profit and you should work towards those goals and not be your uplines best customer. You also want to consider the motives of your company are they the same as your uplines , they may not be. You always want to do what is in your best interest , it’s your business and you can run it as you see fit. If your upline disagrees with this and feels you should do it his way then ask him to provide you a paycheck for your hours.
2. Stop doing what is not working. You need to sell the products, your downline is there to help you multiply your efforts in return for your experience and knowledge to help them be profitable.
3. You don’t have to spend a lot of money on tapes, books, or events to make your business work.
You can motivate yourself poor, and nothing will happen until you take the steps to really make it work, do the things that really make you a profit, and do something everyday to get you closer to your goals. There is a saying l like: “If it is to be it’s up to me”.
On to the next part of that paragraph
“extremely low average income (just $115 a month -- not counting any expenses or taxes)”
I don’ t believe these averages truly reflect income earnings; however, it does reflect a high failure rate
Example: 1 person joins and does something with the business making $11,500 and another 99 people join never doing anything with the business; for whatever reason, lets say they had all been signed up for a quick sale then had been forgotten about; didn‘t know what to do and eventually quit. $11,500 divided by 100 equals an average of $115
Now my next question would be: “Is it really an extremely poor business opportunity or are people just doing business poorly?” and “Why is there such a high failure rate?”
I still believe that the system in and of itself is workable; Unfortunately, I don’t believe it is worth my time and effort due to the low startup profitability of the pay plan and the ideologies, beliefs, and business culture of quixtar.
As far as the quality of quixtar products, I really don’t know and I am not going to go there as I feel it is out the general scope of this thread.
I believe that everyone has the chance to better their income through free enterprise and make their own dreams come true, to have the ability to buy those higher quality things in life whether they need them or not.
Well Tim I have rambled on long enough …
Once again I want to say I am not defending quixtar these are just my opinion on the business model.
Thank you for your time.
David
First of all I want to let you know that in no way am I promoting or saying that quixtar is a business opportunity that people should join.
By the way, there's nothing wrong with saying that here, in any case, provided the comment rules are respected.
I believe your likely to make a decent income...
Then check this out. The statistics are from Alticor itself. And it's true a few people do make a little bit of money (BEFORE expenses and taxes, that is) -- for example, in 2005 1 in 588 made about $47,000. But they made that money by convincing the other 99.7% to work for less than minimum wage!
These are hard facts, my friend. If it weren't like this, I wouldn't be wasting my time warning people against it: I'm very pro-business in general, and quite in favor of work and making extra money.
I just hate seeing people get ripped off.
Jumping ahead a bit: I don’ t believe these averages truly reflect income earnings; however, it does reflect a high failure rate...
If I understand your implications correctly, you're making a crucial mistake here. The "failure rate" has almost nothing to do with the level of effort each participants puts in, or their sales abilities. Read this. (Scroll down to the "Q-Town" section if you get bored easily.) The "failure rate" is built into the system itself, and is a necessary byproduct of how "the plan" itself works. You can no more bypass it than the law of entropy.
(And even this wasn't true, I'm always amazed that people have such a high opinion of themselves that they believe they'll be the 1 in 588, or whatever, to actually make a high school teacher's wage off this thing. I think I'm pretty smart and hard-working, but I sure wouldn't take those odds. Not for that much investment!)
Example: 1 person joins and does something with the business making $11,500 and another 99 people join never doing anything with the business; for whatever reason, lets say they had all been signed up for a quick sale then had been forgotten about; didn‘t know what to do and eventually quit. $11,500 divided by 100 equals an average of $115
The problem here is that you're assuming the "does something" here involves external customers -- like an insurance agent, perhaps, who moves a lot of policies to people outside his company.
But Quixtar is nothing like that. IBOs don't sell nearly as much to others as they themselves buy -- or as they get credit for their "downlines" buying (each generally for themselves, also).
So that $11,500 isn't coming from an external customer who receives an economic value. It's coming that man's downlines (99 people who lost money), who are incurring a debt in the future hope they will someday be in his shoes. At best (for them), they pass the con on. At worst (for them), they get stuck holding the bag in a saturated market.
The example you gave, with 99 people doing nothing, can't explain this statistic, since it's only the average income for active IBOs -- meaning that people who "do nothing" aren't even being counted here. And those downlines don't such so much lose money (though there are horrific debts incurred in some cases) as they do time trying to "build this thing", when they could have been actually making money with something more profitable (like just about any second job), or at least having fun and/or loving their families.
To back up a bit, there are only two ways to approach this critter: (1) Try to earn the bulk of your money by moving product, or (2) try to earn the bulk of your money by signing other people up.
Option #1 doesn't work because Quixtar/Amway/Alticor products aren't good enough to warrant the extra cost for most consumers, and because both the distribution and advertising structure is economically inefficient. And worse, each IBO works to "saturate" his own geographic market, rather than taking careful steps (as a reputable franchise opportunity would) to make sure an area doesn't get too many competing IBOs.
In short, Option #1 doesn't work because this thing isn't actually a business. It just looks like one to people who don't know the difference.
And Option #2 (the way you will be encouraged to do it) doesn't "work" either, writ large, because we're simply describing a pyramid scheme, where wealth comes from people below incuring a debt. Yes, there are a few big winners (mainly by selling tools) but there are many more losers.
Consider the motives of your upline- you are in business to make a profit and you should work towards those goals and not be your uplines best customer.
Feelings or intentions don't do anything to the nature of this beast. Over and over I get prospective IBOs who say they'll be more ethical, or nicer, or whatever. Forget it: you can't solve the fundamental economic problems I'm outlining here by simply asking for more freedom to do your own thing, etc.
3. You don’t have to spend a lot of money on tapes, books, or events to make your business work.
Of course not. But that assumes you have a workable business plan in the first place.
Tim,
I understand what you are saying, but what about all those people who have given up 2-3 years of their time and reached the point of making 500+ a month, should they just give it all up? Isn‘t there any hope for them… I don’t think these are bad people , they may just be following a system that a few high level diamonds came up with to drive more income up the ladder.
This is information that I copied from quixtar:
“As an Independent Business Owner (IBO), the IBO Plan lets you earn immediate income (retail profit) by merchandising high-quality products and services. You can also earn bonuses based on the sales volume generated not just from your customers, but also from the volume generated through the organization you create by registering other IBOs.
The Customer Volume Requirement
In order to earn a Performance Bonus on downline volume, an IBO must make at least one sale to each of 10 different customers OR have at least 50 PV of sales to any number of retail customers OR have $100 at Customer Volume Cost.
Since 1999, IBOs powered by Quixtar have earned more than $2.2 billion in bonuses and other incentives by generating sales of more than $6.8 billion at www.quixtar.com, and another $500 million for Quixtar Partner Stores.
May I create an advertisement to promote my business?
Rules 7.2.2 and 9.8 require that all advertising be submitted to Quixtar for approval prior to distribution.
May I create a website to promote my business?
Yes, provided the website complies with all the rules governing IBO websites and its content has been reviewed by the Corporation prior to posting on the internet. For more information on the rules and guidelines governing IBO websites, see Bulletin 17.
The following guidelines will help you avoid misrepresentations that could lead to a variety of state and federal legal challenges.”
Now I was not able to obtain Rules 7.2.2 and 9.8 or bulletin 17 as you need an IBO number and password to get that information.
Now form what I am reading from the company they are asking you to retail their product to customers.
Quixtar claims that you can advertise as long as it is approved first.
Quixtar is stating that they have paid almost 1/3 of the income they have generated back to their IBO’s
From this statement someone is earning money somewhere in the organization.
They claim that you are an Independent Business Owner and have complete control over how you operate your business as long you maintain compliance with the Code of Ethics and the Rules of Conduct.
Now either quixtar is flat out lying or someone has found a loop hole in the system and pushing the buy from yourself plan.
Now I don’t intend to join quixtar; however, there are some people who have something to lose if they just up and quit. There has to be a better way.
I still believe that with sound ethical business practices you can make a decent income.
It may not be worth your time and effort, but I still feel it can be done.
Something is not right in quixtarland, but it doesn’t mean that the people that are locked in to quixtar can’t change the way they do business.
Now I have talked to some quixtarites that are so caught up in the motivational system that the angles in heaven could not stay them away from the buy from yourself plan and have others do the same.
However, I believe there are at least few people trying to earn an extra income in the quixtar system looking for a better way.
Maybe there is no hope, but if you have something to lose it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t at least try.
I am just giving my opinion on how I think someone who is in quixtar could make it work, based on proven business strategies.
David,
If you have the drive and skill to promote products and services, why not take up some other opportunity that doesn't have such restrictions? You think Ebay would work with password-protected sales? Word of mouth is a slow boat indeed.
And as for the "average" income, that is average for "active" IBOs. You say some who do little bring down the average, but "millionaires" like bill britt certainly must drive up the average too right?
Quixtar pays out 30+ % back to IBOs. Wow is quixtar that generous or did IBOs pay 35% more for their products so quixtar could return it to them in bonuses?
Joe, maybe I have gotten a little side tracked with all this quixtar stuff- I am sorry.
In my mind the quixtar pay plan looks very close to other pay plans I have seen, and I guess I am having a hard time understanding why it works with one company and not another.
More than likely nothing that I could ever say or do will get people in quixtar to think about, and ask the question how can I make a profit.
David,
The quixtar presenters use clever psychology when they recruit.
Come join us - low or no overhead. Own your own business. Follow our proven plan.
Once you register then pitch changes slightly - and makes sense unless you catch it. Later - upline says all businesses have expenses (to justofy tapes and functions). Or most businesses don't profit for up to 5 years. Of course that's not what is pitched before you sign up.
Also, talk about products and services dminishes once you register. After you sign up - then it becomes dedication to the system. Never miss a function. Do what it takes. Never quit.
Some of the changes in the "pitch" are very subtle.
IMO, if you have the will and desire to succeed, yuo can do much better in something other than quixtar. Sure some people make it big, but then again, some people can swim with bricks tied to their bodies as well - but most sink. Same like quixtar.
Joe and Tim,
I need to know whether my theory is a workable one or if I am wrong
about what I have been saying. The cost is minimal to me and I would
just like to know.
I am doing this for fun and a test to see what will happen.
I have joined quixtar total cost 48.00
I am going to contact quixtar and find out exactly what kind of advertising I can
do and what kind of ads I can run. Estimated time 15-30 mins
These are the parameters I have set for this test.
I plan on running an all free adds on the internet using only classified posts as close to the ones I stated earlier in this thread
I plan on limiting my time to 15 mins a day 4 days a week for a total of 4 hour a month for 3 months
My total budgeted time for this project will be 14 hours. And
My total budgeted dollars for this project will be $100.00 in which
48.00 has already been spent leaving me $52.00 for local advertising.
I plan on just doing my own thing no contact with other IBO’s.
I will measure.
What my total investmentin time and dollars is.
The number of retail sales and total amount of retail sales.
What profit and/or loss I have.
At the end of 3 months I will post my results good or bad.
If quixtar shuts me down and tells me I can’t advertise or do business the way I see fit to make a profit as I described in this thread then I will post that here too.
Sorry, it is bugging me, and I would like to put my theory to the test.
Kindest regards,
David
David,
The way you have outlined your plan, in theory it could definitely work. I don't see meagbucks rolling into your bank account if you operate as stated. I think you could possibly make a few bucks and with minimal effort.
My main issue with most IBOs is the endless expenditures on teaching materials. Tapes books and seminars - all of which teach you little to nothing about how to run a profitable quixtar business.
By the way, if quixtar won't let you advertise and you decide not to be an IBO, yuo can request a refund on your registration fees.
Joe and Tim,
Ok I spent a little longer than I wanted setting up websites due to the fact that I was unable to get my re-directs to work. time 35mins
Here is and example of the active websites running in my quixtar test.
Tim you can delete these links after you and Joe
have looked them over.
I still have to get the redirects working and they will look more like this when I get them set up.
healthy-lifestyles.eoltt.com
In the meantime, here are the quixtar base links for my advertising campaign. quixtar oked and made these active within 10 minutes.
http://cbessenbacher.qhealthbeauty.com
http://cbessenbacher.qbeautyzone.com
http://dbessenbachersr.qhealthzone.com
These are official quixtar sites
Cost: came with the membership and was very easy to set up.
Still waiting for the official ok to post to classifieds from quixtar with this ad.
David Bessenbacher Independent Business Operator.
High quality, health minded products for every lifestyle. To view my products or if you have an
interest in making an extra income from home.
click this link: [my quixtar website/David]
We will see what happens. as my test kind of hinges on the classified approval.
Talk to ya soon.
David, good luck.
It looks like you are a rare IBO who wants to run the "biz" ethically. You know you are the exception and not the rule right?
Joe, it's not about quixtar or being an IBO, it could be any other business.
It is about business, your goal is to make a profit, and since it is your business your in control of how you make things happen. I look for things that are easy to do, don’t take up a lot of my time, and that I like doing. A lot of people are looking to win the lottery and find that one big boat, but most of the time it’s all the little boats that bring the fish to market
I may find that quixtar products are way over priced and nobody wants the stuff, but until I offer it to people I am never going to know. This market test will tell me that.
As with life or business you have to do the things that are in your best interest.
Don’t take what I am doing the wrong, way quixtar may still be an extremely poor business opportunity.
David, the concept of what you're doing is what many people want. A very oart time effort that may possibly result in a side income. I think the idea can work - the key will be selling a product/service that basically sells itself.
If you can find that, I think your idea can work.
I hope you will come back to post your results - whether favorable or not. Good luck.
Well, been several days and still waiting on approval from quixtar; however i did receive this email today.
Hi David:
I forwarded your email to Rick Helms in the Rules department. He'll be in
touch with you once he's reviewed the proposed classified ads you've
submitted.
So guess it is a waiting game for the moment.
David
David, please keep us posted.
David, any word yet on those ads you want to run?
At the moment still waiting for approval from quixtar. I will keep you posted as soon as i hear one way or the other. sounds like i can advertise i just have to follow the right rules.
David, any word yet on that advertising?
Hello, Joe
So far I have sent 2 emails with ads, they seem to have passed the first step; however, I have not had any official approval yet.
Not sure if they are really backed up, or really slow, anyway looks like it may be awhile. I would like to use the quixtar name in my ads, so people know what it is beforehand, I think that is going to be the main issue.
From my understanding so far, you have to fully state that you are an independent business owner, or an independent distributor of quixtar products, viewers of your ad may not know what IBO stands for. Any claims you make are with the understanding that they are from you and not the quixtar company. Furthermore, your claims need to be honest and truthful- can't use misleading ads like $10,000 monthly income, or Xs drink cured cancer in my dog skip!
If it takes to long I may use a different approach with my ad:
David Bessenbacher Independent Business Operator.
High quality, health minded products for every lifestyle. To view my products or if you have an
interest in making an extra income from home.
click this link: [my lead capture page]
Did not state quixtar anywhere in the ad. this is ok to use.
on the lead capture page they would have to fill in their information and click a check check box that they agree to, and would like to be contacted by me. and agree that they would like to view my website.
Did not state quixtar anywhere on the capture page. this is ok to use
when they hit the OK button it would then redirect them to [my quixtar website/David]
This person has now requested information from me, and I can show them my website and send them product promotion ads by email. this is ok to use.
The downside is that this takes some time to set up and you would have to know a little bit about webpages and be able to teach your downline how to advertise this way.
I like simple and easy for everyone and would like to use the quixtar name in the ads and just display the ads direct.
However, if I don't get an official word in the next month or so, I will follow through with the second choice in advertising; because, I really would like to know how quixtar preforms as a business without the current IBO culture.
David, thanks for the update.
Don't you think these types of restrictions makes it difficult to run your business?
You'd think they would at least have generic examples of ads you could use that were pre-approved. I'm sure you're not the first to ask about advertising.
Good luck and I hope you will post when a response issued by the corporation.
Wow, still no response yet?
No response yet, would be nice if they had some type of support team to work with you on placing ads. Unfortunately, it just seems like I am waiting for someone to get to my request.
As a side note, with offline sales, well I didn‘t really sell anything... my son looked through the catalog and took a liking the XS drinks and has been doing very well selling them to his friends. I talked to them about the product and their response was that they liked it and would pay around the same price at the local store. Unexpected sales… 4 cases.
Great story David. Please keep us updated on the advertising deal.
Well while waiting to hear back from quixtar I told a couple of people I was playing around with a new business model and I have several that keep me busy already so I didn't put much time into it; however, I had asked them if they would purchase and test out some of the products and give me an honest opinion.
I have had 4 people call me back and signed up for a monthly autoshipment. At present I have almost made my registration fee back and have around 37 pv on auto ship from customers and 7 pv from myself for bar soap which I do like, it last 4 times longer and that works for me since my kids can go through a bar of soap in 2 days lol. So far I have had no trouble selling the products and at my present rate will hit 100 pv auto ship from customers in under 6 months. Now this isn't going to yield a lot of money, but for the amount of time I have into this project it hasn't been a bad investment. And 20-45 USD extra a month to the bottom line will buy an evening out to the movies.
Best Wishes,
David
So far I have had no trouble selling the products and at my present rate will hit 100 pv auto ship from customers in under 6 months...
David,
I'll be frank: There *are* a few fairly neato products in the Amway/Quixtar lineup. And honestly, if they just asked people to do what you're doing -- make money primarily (+80%) by moving product (like Pampered Chef, Avon and so many others) I'd never have written about it.
But I think you've put your finger on the main drawback...
Now this isn't going to yield a lot of money, but for the amount of time I have into this project it hasn't been a bad investment. And 20-45 USD extra a month to the bottom line will buy an evening out to the movies...
I don't scoff at those numbers either -- if you can put in an hour or two, sell some kids some sports drinks (etc) and make $20-$50, I'd be plenty happy too. (Heck, I still bend over to pick up lost pennies.)
But (a) that's not quite the kind of replace- or supplement-your-income affair people think they're getting into, and (b) you're just selling products (gee, what's wrong with you?) not "showing the plan", which is what gets people into the pyramidal aspect of this.
Thanks so much for your update! We've never had anyone who commented here try this and actually follow-up with their results from this particular approach. I've met a few who said they were going to do exactly what you're doing, but they never came back and admitted how it came out. Given their over-the-top boasts, and the numbers you're seeing (nice, but nothing to quit your day job over) I can guess why.
Thanks so much, David, and best to you!
- Tim
Hello Tim,
I understand that some methods used by some of the leadership groups in my opinion are downright unethical . Unfortunately, I paid to attend a BDS meeting hoping to learn some information and see if it could be useful - If this is the way they are all set up I have no interest in attending another one. First of all they were illusive, and unwilling to answer any questions during the first half of the meeting. Most of it was fluff with a concept they called the Dream and a diagram in a straight line leading you to believe that they, the speakers or business leaders, had the intension of placing all these people in your down line if you would join. Now I know most of the people not in quixtar had someone bring them in hopes that they would be persuaded enough by the meeting to join under their down line. And for the new person joining what I was hearing the speakers say was not possible or feasible. Well along comes the break and I caught one of the speakers out in the hall and asked some questions about quixtar and was bluntly if not rudely told they were not quixtar and his group doesn’t use the term quixtar they represented TEAM, quixtar was just a vehicle they used. Now this really sent up some red flags, so naturally I asked what is TEAM? Well he had no intension of giving me any information, like it was some secret society. Then he shifts the conversation to what I need to do to make it in this business. Then he comes out with something along the lines of this statement: I am interested in power players I don’t want anything to do with anyone in my group who is unwilling to do a personal volume of 500 pv a month. Well to make a long story short I never went back to the second half of the meeting. Now personally I think if you are representing a company you should be up front and say this is quixtar and this is what we have to offer. Then show people how to reach their goals. Tim, I can truly understand your point about warning people about the dangers of this business, and when greed enters the picture that could happen in any mlm business. I don’t think quixtar and their products, or the business model is really the problem, and more than likely your not going to get rich at it, but you could make a part time extra income with some effort. The main thing is anyone considering going into this type of business needs to understand that no one is going to build their business for them. Then I would say just focus on income producing activity - ie what is going to put money in your pocket.
“if you can put in an hour or two, sell some kids some sports drinks (etc)”
My oldest son who likes the xs drinks is 25 and his friends are between 20-30 and even though they are still kids to me, they are also adults.
This has been more of a fun project for me than a business.
Well, I ran out of time talk to ya later.
Best Wishes,
David
Sorry I had to run out in the middle of my last post,
Tim your absolutely right it is nothing to quit your day job over. You and I both know that sometimes it can take years if not decades to build a decent residual income. Unless your very lucky or very persistent, and the latter means your going to be making some sacrifices, buying leads, getting on the phone everyday cold calling, investing money in direct mailings and advertising ,in general talking to people everyday for hours about your mlm business. Now on the flip side of the coin, the nice thing about mlm is that you can work at it part time, you can leverage your time with people you enjoy working with and who are interested in building a residual income with you. Over time little by little you can build a customer base and a sizeable down line. It’s basically the same as having your money work for you. If you were to save 625.00 in the bank every month for 5 years you would have somewhere around 50,000.00 and at 6% the interest can yield you 250.00 a month. Or you could spend a couple of hours on your mlm and place 1-2 people in your down line each month and at the end of 5 years I would almost bet that you would be making that same 250.00 a month if not more. Of course you need to find a business you believe in and are willing to stick with. Some compensation plans are better than others and it just takes a couple of people working together to make it happen.
Best Wishes,
David
Over time little by little you can build a customer base and a sizeable down line...
Dave,
The problem I have with what you're saying here is that you are linking the ideas of "down line" and "residual income."
In a real business (like what you've done), you build a "residual income" by selling a product or service to an external customer. For example, if I write some software, and charge licensing fees, I continue to make money while my product is still viable, even if I have ceased to work on it. (Indeed, I actually make several thousand dollars each year in precisely this way.)
And I might hire one or two people to do my work for me, or even multiply the business into different states, but the income is still coming from the product or service -- the "downlines" ("employees") are a necessary expense, not my source of income. I want as FEW of those as possible, given the same area covered: the money is coming from an external customer.
But if your "residual income" consists primarily of multiplying "down lines", with no or very little emphasis on an external customer, then you're admitting that the primary aspect of your business and hoped-for income is pyramidal. Opposite a real business, which wants to move as much product with as FEW "down lines" as possible, you work to MAXIMIZE the number of "franchisees".
And, of course, pyramids collapse: quickest at the bottom, slowest at the top.
Quixtar is no exception to this rule: the attrition rate is terrible. You can't reasonably expect a "residual income" when half of your "down line" sellers drop out each year -- if you want to keep 500 "downlines", it means you'll have to add 250 more each year. Where's the "residual" from that effort? So such promises -- and your own words seem to show you believe they have been made -- are misleading or fraudulent.
So if you're trying to move product -- which is what you've done -- I have no issue. But when you promise a "residual income" based on "downlines" or "the plan", then we're into pyramid-scheme territory.
And the beauty of Quixtar is how easily it moves people from thinking about activity #1 which is legitimate and helpful, into advocating activity #2, and which is neither.
So I'd love to hear how long you are able to keep moving product. Thanks!
Hello Tim,
This is going to be a long one.
I have no problem with a pyramidal structure as long as it is done in an ethical manner and maybe that is where I am having the problem in understanding Quixtar and how they have chosen to do business. I may be hard headed at times, but I do try to understand your viewpoint.
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“And I might hire one or two people to do my work for me, or even multiply the business into different states, but the income is still coming from the product or service"
-------
Yes the goal is to sell your product or service, and there are several ways to do that. These can be products or services that you created or someone else created. You can sell these product by yourself or you can enlist others to help you. And the people can be enlisted in different ways:
1. You can hire them as employees in the manner listed below, and at your discretion employees can be expected to provide at their expense, transportation, the clothes you tell them to wear and the tools you tell them they need to do the job.
A. Hourly Wage- I’ll agree to pay you X amount of dollars per hour to do Y during this period of time.
B. Contractual Agreement- I’ll pay you X amount of dollars in Y time period to do this job description.
C. Commission- I’ll agree to pay a percentage of X for Y amount of sales and the employees expenses may or may not be included.
2. You can outsource the job.
A. Subcontract to another person- I’ll agree to pay X amount of dollars on completion of the job or some stage of the job.
B. Agreement for Service- I’ll pay X amount of dollars per Y result i.e. Y equals your ad shown 100 times on dish network in the month of June.
C. Affiliate partnership or franchise- I’ll provide you with a system and all the things you will need to sell my product or service for a set price. I’ll agree to pay a percentage of X for Y amount of sales; furthermore, I will give you the opportunity to expand by allowing you to recruit or enlist other affiliate partners to help you sell my product or service, and I’ll agree to pay an additional percentage to you as a bonus for all the sales in your franchise group or department in exchange for your ability to build and manage this sales group or group of salespeople.
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"-- the "down lines" ("employees") are a necessary expense, not my source of income."
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If you need people to help you create and sell your product i.e. software (boxed or digital) then they are your source of income. The product 95% of the time will not sell itself, now the people their efforts, sweat, and hard work will create, distribute, and sell your product.
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" I want as FEW of those as possible, given the same area covered: the money is coming from an external customer.”
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As long as there is a demand for your product and your sales could support the workforce and provide a profit i.e. putting money in your pocket for each sale, I would think you would want as many people helping you as you could get.
As I stated before I have no problem with a pyramidal structure as long as it is done in an ethical manner. Now the problem begins when people start taking advantage of other people and don’t kid yourself an employer can take just as much advantage of their employees as a quixtar distributor can take of his/her partners or down line.
You can put the burden on an employee or a down line just the same and tell them they have to buy your products to do the job and you could say something like this “As a new employee or down line member I would like to give you a brief orientation your on your own you go figure it out, just made sure you stay loyal and buy my products and go to the company meetings- Oh by the way you need to pay for your own travel expenses.” and sooner or later that employee if they work for you, or that down line is going to be very unhappy and quit or leave your organization one way or another.
Or
You can work with that employee or down line and give them training on how to make the sales to external customers and sell your product or service. And if an employee does a good job you may allow that person to hire additional people and set certain sales goals for the department to reach then give that employee an additional bonus as a reward when he meets these goals. And you may train and work with your down line on how to partner up with and manage additional people to meet his/her sales goals. And if those people- employees or down line who know their job and are making money from a sales force that has built the business by making those external sales to customers they have a far greater chance of being happy and sticking around to help you build your business. Now your going to have people who are just not going to fit in- they don’t like the job you offered them or they don’t like the partnership and its not something they want to do. And if your in there helping them your going to know that right away. Maybe they like the product and just want to be a customer that gets a discount , as long as that’s what they want to do and you haven’t mislead them, they may be perfectly happy getting a 25% discount and a 4 dollar rebate when they buy products- that’s ok I spend money on a Costco membership I seldom use, but I still purchase it every year because it’s what I want.
If I can be profitable by myself then I can show the person under me how to be profitable too! And if they have been shown how to make money they can show and help someone under them. If you build a strong foundation of salespeople your pyramid will stand for years. Pyramids are a strong structure and you will find it in traditional business and architecture, even history has shown this over time- the pyramids in Egypt and other parts of the world are still standing when other structures have crumbled away.
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“pyramids collapse: quickest at the bottom, slowest at the top.”
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Pyramid scams collapse because the people are trying to hold the weight of the pyramid and they are going to get crushed. Somewhere I posted way back up the list something close to this: What if MacDonald’s made all their franchisees buy hamburgers as the main support of the business? What if they very seldom sold to any outside customers? Do you think their franchisee would have been happy? Of course not! They would be very unhappy and MacDonald’s would have to find a way to keep them in the system long enough to replace them with new fresh people willing to spend large sums of money to eat up all the hamburgers, fry’s and shakes.
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"and your own words seem to show you believe they have been made -- are misleading or fraudulent."
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Very true, I do believe that some people are in it for only the money and they don’t care who they hurt, and some people may not have the intentions to hurt other it’s just the way they have been taught to do the system. And I feel that some people do business in a very misleading way and most of the people that fall prey to them get hurt and lose money. However, that can happen in any business, I could buy a software product for 500 dollars from Joe on the net
Then later find out it doesn’t work with out a product key, I then click the link and end up at your free product download site and find out that you want another 25 dollars to make a product I paid for work.
Some people will take advantage of you and never give it a second thought, and some people will go out of their way to walk that extra mile with you. It’s a people business and we all have sales skills whether we are talking our Mom into watching the kids and buying a bar of our soap, or having our friend do us a favor and show his boss a software product we think his company could use.
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"So if you're trying to move product -- which is what you've done -- I have no issue. But when you promise a "residual income" based on "down lines" or "the plan", then we're into pyramid-scheme territory."
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Comparison:
My Idea of a Pyramid-scheme
Big John 7500 GPV Tells his people to spend 500 pv and I’ll make you rich!
Sam spends 1000 dollars of his own money to get 500 personal volume just because Big John told him that’s the way his group does business and makes no outside sales.
Clark also spends 1000 dollars hoping to make money from the people below him and doesn’t want to bother with any small sales.
Amanda spends 1000 dollars has good sales skills and is desperately trying to get the rest of her neighbors to join in because Big John has shown her a way to prosper.
Mark and the other 11 people Amanda got to join spend 12000 of their own money; however they are not sure how long they can continue spending this much money with no return.
My Idea of a Down line
Honest Abe 7500 GPV Tells his people to do a little work every day and trains them to be profitable.
Paul and his group make 2000 GPV mostly from outside sale and purchased some products for themselves and they receive 25% retail markup for their sales
Rodger and his group do the same
Olivia decided she just likes some of the products buying form time to time and maybe will sell some of the products if asked
Francis and her group sell 500 GPV and build the business when they can. Again mostly from outside sales or people who want to be customers and just buy the products.
Ivan and his group sell 2000 GPV and receives retail markup.
Tom wants to build his customer base first and has worked hard and has 1000 PV from retail customers
Well I hope I have given you a small glimpse of my viewpoint.
Best Wishes,
David
David, I wish you well, but leave you food for thought.
An IBO who can actually succeed and build an empire without "tools" is unheard of. I personally have not seen or heard of anyone doing it.
However, if someone did start to accomplish it - it would be a threat to the kingpin diamonds who run the tools systems. These diamonds have great power and influence on the corporation.
Where would that leave you?
Hello Joe,
You won’t see any posts from me in the quixtar sucks, and quixtar alerts section because we are taking about valid feelings people have. Now in this thread Tim posted a challenge as an absolute that quixtar generates no wealth, and quixtar is in the group of businesses that use a basic mlm model; therefore, I read the MLM business model generates no wealth.
Now here is the way I see it Quixtar, and any other company that uses this business model has chosen to outsource its sales. This gives you the opportunity to sell their product. An opportunity you would not otherwise have if Quixtar placed their products on retail shelves worldwide.
In essence this type of company is saying: Joe we need someone to sell and market our products for us and Joe if you feel that you can do that here’s the deal.
Affiliate partnership or franchise- I’ll provide you with a system and all the things you will need to sell my product or service for a set price. I’ll agree to pay a percentage of X for Y amount of sales; furthermore, I will give you the opportunity to expand by allowing you to recruit or enlist other affiliate partners to help you sell my product or service, and I’ll agree to pay an additional percentage to you as a bonus for all the sales in your franchise group or department in exchange for your ability to build and manage this sales group or group of salespeople.
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Quixtars version.
“As an Independent Business Owner (IBO), the IBO Plan lets you earn immediate income (retail profit) by merchandising high-quality products and services. You can also earn bonuses based on the sales volume generated not just from your customers, but also from the volume generated through the organization you create by registering other IBOs.”
In order to obtain the right to earn a Performance Bonus on downline volume during a given month, an IBO must: (a) make not less than one sale to each of 10 different retail customers; or (b) have at least 50 PV of sales to any number of retail customers; or (c) have $100 at Customer Volume Cost.
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Now that’s not so bad , except for part c.) have $100 at Customer Volume Cost. The loophole that people have been exploiting and abusing . To further exploit the system some people have chosen to promote separate businesses within the network organizations they have built to push motivational products, various types books, clothes, and associations that again are designed to get you to buy that persons various services and products.
Ok now we have determined that quixtar has opened up the market for anyone to sell their products and make a retail profit. Now you have to determine “why” you are doing this type of business-is to make an extra $250 to make that car payment or are you out to make your fortune. Then plan and set goals on how to get there. Now I am pretty sure if you stick to quixtar and marketing the products in an ethical way your not going to step on any kingpin toes.
Now there are several lawsuits where an upline has conspired for the take over and demise a downlines business; however, it seems to be due to breach of contract and anti-trust violations related to the tools business.
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_lawsuits.html
In conclusion I believe quixtar has offered you a way to make some extra money:
Can you do it and can you make money at it? Well I believe that is up to you and how you want to run your business.
Is quixtar the business to join? Well I’m not so sure about that, it seems to have its problems, just know why you would want to join and that you’re the one that’s going to have to work at it, keep the expenses down, and make those profits.
Best Wishes,
David
David, I believe the way Rich and Jay set up and intended the business to run was the way it works for the most people. IMO, because of greed, the big motivational groups have taken over and removed the original intent ofthe business - which was a way to supplement income.
If you run business that way, I have no argument with you and you have my support.
What I am against is these groups seling "residual" income, quitting jobs to sell quixtar, retiring early, jets, mansions, etc. This kind of success is very rare and in fact, nearly all IBOs to subscribe to the "system" end up losing money - because of the system.
Those who succeed - do so in spite of the system, not because of it.
Hi Joe,
Here is a link to help explain and give people a little more information on what to expect in this type of business. It gives some information on one approach people have used and some income expectations. This is just information and not about quixtar or to sell you anything.
It takes a little while to load so be patient.
www.dcbac.com/amaclip
Best Wishes,
David
David,
Just to clarify, you like the business, but not the "system"?
Joe,
Just to clarify, yes I like the freedom of a business that can be worked from home and at any time. Presently I promote and market products for 5 different companies, and 3 of those companies use an mlm structure. Now I don’t want anyone to think I am saying go out and join a bunch of companies. Most of the time there is a learning curve and a lot of extra time requirements just to get one started. I focused on one company at a time till it reached a marketing plateau for me then slowly worked in another one. Lets face it people have different interests at different times and laundry soap might not be on the buying list today.. As far as a system that someone has created; it depends, is it easy to do and is the system helping me or is it taking up all my time and causing me to fail.
Best Wishes,
David
Furthermore,
From my own personal experience I found that attending a quixtar business development seminar, or BDS in my area did not help me. First of all the title led me to believe that someone was going to explain the basics of operating the business, basic records keeping, and how you can promote and market their products. And from the descriptive title felt this could be useful and save me time to send a person to learn the basics that I might get in the business to help me. However, for me this was not the case and I found myself sitting in the middle of a very long sales pitch. I look at myself as an independent and I make relationships with people to reach common goals making extra money and when a person joins my down line most of the time they join to work with me. And at times I have to make decisions on what is going to work for me and the people I work with. Now if for some odd reason quixtar came up and said: “Hey David you know our top diamonds are not getting the tool sales from your business group and we can’t do business with you any more- Your out! I would like to think I have a good enough relationship with the people I work with to be able to let them know that quixtar is flaking out on us and I would l like to suggest we as a group try this new company.
David
David, I agree that those seminars, which can be costly for an IBO - do not help as they don't teach you to move product. These seminars are often designed to help you recruit more IBOs, and often, these teachings include a bit of deception. Some IBOs are also taught to dedicate their lives to these seminars and they often end up bankrupt and/or in debt as a result.
Unfortunately I don't have a taped copy, but at a function, upline (WWDB) once taught IBOs how to manipulate and skip payments on bills. For example, they would explain how long you could go without paying before your home would be foreclosed, or how long you could put off paying your electric bill.
IMO - because they wanted you to invest every available dollar you had into tools - which the diamonds apparently enrich themselves with.
In light of the big news, seems like some AQMO's walls are crumbling down before our eyes!
AQMO?
Haven't had much time to do anything with quixtar more than likely won't have time to play with it till after September. Still have never heard a word from quixtar saying yes or no on advertising. Except that they have changed some of the rules to allow you certain approved search engine ads. However, getting the approval stamp doesn't seem to be very easy, and not much information is given. Quixtar has produced a very small monthly return and the upside is it's easy to do. So, far the biggest downside I have had with quixtar is that it doesn't have any type of up front bonus that some of the other mlm's offer. It's kind of hard to stay motivated in the beginning when your retail % is all you get for your efforts. In any case, I may continue with quixtar for awhile; however, my main focus is going to be with the mlm companies that pay an up front bonus.
David, AQMO = Amway/Quixtar Motivational Organization. These are the companies that sell tapes, books and seminars and claim that this information is vital to your success.
They also portray a jetset lifestyle supposedly attained by quixtar income - if you only subscribe to their "proven" system.
Well seen that quixtar has come out with an incentive program this month till 8-31-08 with additional cash and pv awards plus no shipping charges with a $75 dollar order. Still won't have much time to work with quixtar for a couple months but it is interesting.
So David, quixtar is ok for making a few dollars. Do you see it as a long term vehicle to produce a lifestyle of jets, mansions, and fancy cars?
I truly think that would depend on the person; however, it is not something I am going for. Even though quixtar is kind of fun to play around with I personally am not serious about it. I started another mlm about 3 weeks before quixtar to try out too, and I like it a lot better. quixtar left me hanging on the ads, and never got back to me, so that tells me their support may not be so good. The other thing is I have been reading a little about quixtar here and there and really not sure what their future plans are. I really like mlm based businesses and prefer them to the other projects I do. And the switch stores idea in quixtar isn't such a bad idea as long as you’re not the only customer. I think the biggest problem I have seen is that no one is really taking the time to treat it like a business- everyone just wants to get someone in, get them on autoship, and then move onto the next person. I understand that you need to recruit people, but you also have the responsibility to help that person be successful if they are willing. And listening to motivational tapes all day and going to a BDS are not an income producing activity.
Sorry for the long rant.
Best Wishes,
David
Well heard quixtar may be taking away the loophole
and everyone may need to have 50% of their pv come from customers. Well sounds like there may be some changes coming so think I am going to set quixtar on the back burner till I hear the official version of what the company plans to do.
Regards,
David
David, I think you summed up the biggest problem with many quixtar uplines. Listening to tapes and attending seminars is not an income producing activity, but is promoted as such.
Well, not sure what is happening in quixtar at the moment, rumor has it a large team, more than 40% of quixtar and considered the most active group, may be leaving and starting their own mlm company.
I have been unable to confirm this and the only info I have found at the this time is:
www.freetheibo.com
Anyway, things seem to be to unstable and quixtar is going to be off my project list till the dust clears.
However, I'll still maintain my existing customers.
Ya never know.
Regards,
David
David,
You are correct. A group called "Team" is being terminated from Quixtar. They made a lot of interesting claims about quixtar. I'm not sure if they are 40% of the business though.
Here's some links:
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_ousts_diamonds.html
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_Goetschel.html
It's somewhat ironic that the team diamonds now claim that quixtar is illegal. IMO, quixtar is quixtar and what was possibly illegal, was the way team was running their business.
I agree with everything that was written in the first article. Although there are certain criteria that can be effective in the whole scheme of Quixtar, it generally leads to failure and a major loss of income and time. Take it from someone who's sponsor was so far in debt as a result of Quixtar that he felt his only way out was to take his own life. Don't get me wrong he made a poor choice, but I remember going to those crazy conventions and it was overwhelming in the fact that they would help you no matter what! Well i think its proof enough.
Jb, check this out:
http://cloudedpawn.blogspot.com/
#1 Because they lie. They lie about the nature of the company. They pretend to be one thing when they are really something else. When people want to show you the plan, they lie or trick you into coming. They lie about how much effort it takes to be successful. They lie about the economics behind the company, and about where the successful ones make most of their money. They lie to themselves about their motivations and their likelihood of succeeding. They deliberately try to portray a lifestyle of wealth, whether they are actually wealthy or not.
WWDB triple diamond homes foreclosed?
http://amquix.info/amway_real_estate_crisis.html
Amway Triple Diamond Bankrupt!
http://www.amquix.info/duncan_bankrupt.html
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Your an Idiot and you don't know what your talking about
Posted by: on September 3, 2004 06:16 PM