Quixtar Generates No Wealth
Quixtar
| September 1, 2004
| Tim
Recently, I've been thinking about Quixtar because of certain comments posted by yet another IBO. Which brought something to mind, something I think I've never explained clearly in an article:
The net effect of Quixtar is that it generates no wealth. Instead, overall, it makes the world a "worse" place to be, economically.
I say this not because I tend to think about Quixtar a lot, but because I had to explain to myself why (or why not) you couldn't create wealth using government programs, FDR-style. The same arguments apply.
Why This Matters
If you tend to think in selfish terms, and you want to do what works for you regardless of whether or not it helps or hurts others, this may not matter at all to you. Frankly, the odds are low that you'll be one of the successful Quixtar IBOs, but if you think you are lucky enough to be one of the few "winners", and you won't care if you hurt others, then there is nothing I can say to dissuade you, other than perhaps warn you: probably everyone else also thinks they'll be that winner, not you.
But if you have some kind of ethical or moral code which says you shouldn't do things which may help you, but will definitely harm most others, then this kind of "overall" analysis is important to that decision.
Think of wealth as a pie. Some kinds of economic activity make that pie larger. Despite what many Quixtar IBOs will tell you, most jobs work like this. As we work we create or improve things or provide wanted services, and collectively, everybody gets wealthier. (If you have trouble seeing or believing this, I'll provide an example below.)
In such a system, we don't necessarily mind if a guy has a bigger slice: If his slice is as wide as two of ours, when the pie grows, he'll gain twice as much new crust and filling as we do, but hey -- unless we're envious (leftists) -- we're happy because we got more, too.
But consider what happens when the pie doesn't grow: If we see someone getting wealthier, then what do we know? We know he or she is getting it at someone else's expense.
And things are even worse, of course, if the pie is shrinking.
Going back to our discussion of ethics, if we don't want to get ahead by hurting others, it means we look for win-win situations like the growing pie, and avoid situations which are like the stable or shrinking pie, where our profit always comes by hurting someone else.
Sadly, I'm going to show Quixtar is like the final case. The few winners are created not just by taking an equal amount from a few losers, but -- far worse -- the few winners win because the losers waste a terrific amount of wealth (time and energy), beyond what the "winners" will eventually receive.
So if you're one of those people who bought into the ethics I mentioned above -- that we don't want to get ahead by hurting others -- then your ethics forbid you to participate in Quixtar if I'm right.
Or you don't really have the ethics you say you do.
Quixtar as an Economic Sinkhole
First, a definition: Positive economic activity is that which makes more wealth in the world. To paraphrase P.J. O'Rourke, it "moves lower-valued resources to higher values". From our discussion above, it's activity which makes a bigger economic pie with more for everyone to eat.
Imagine we start with nothing, except that you live on a lot full of trees, sticks, and vines; I live on land covered with rocks and flint. We trade, do some work, and -- viola! -- we now have axes for ourselves and to sell to others. We're all just a bit richer, and our lives, just a bit better. We can trade with the fruit-people and eat. And we can chop down a tree or five, build shelters, and get inside, away from the cold. We're all richer, fewer of us are dying from exposure, and life is better all around.
We have made the world a better place.
Now consider Quixtar: In Quixtar, there are basiclly two kinds of economic activity. The first is that people buy a lot of stuff from Quixtar corporation. But this isn't generally a significant improvement, since people already had ways of buying similar or identical stuff -- either online or up the street. So the addition of that activity doesn't change the overall economic picture much. Nobody's really getting anything they didn't get before.
(But some of your money now gotes to Quixtar's owners, rather than the owners of your neighborhood stores, or Land's End, or whatever.)
BUT, the product costs must be increased slightly in order to pay bonuses back to the "uplines" who signed up each consumer. So, looking only at this part of the equation so far, people are generally paying more and getting less because of those bonuses. So that's a net negative effect. That part of the economic world is worse.
Now, what about the results of the upline payments? Well, this certainly generates some activity, too, doesn't it? The net effect of this activity is that IBOs, in order to position themselves to receive these payments at some point in the future, run around trying to contact their friends (and strangers), and spend their time, and their friends' time, telling them about this great new opportunity.
There are two things I'd like to note about this:
(1) Such meetings seemed designed to give as little information as possible. This means that people who are accustomed to knowing the cost of things before they buy them have to spend a lot of time, as I did, doing research in order to find out all kinds of things their sponsor already knows, but won't tell them -- or things their sponsor doesn't know, but really should.
(2) Then there are a lot of repeat contacts. Because the come-on is often mysterious, and doesn't mention the word "Quixtar", a person actually has to sit down with the sponsor to find out if it's Quixtar again. ("Oh, this sounds like Amway...")
Looked at as a whole, this is a very inefficient way to get the word out about Quixtar. A billboard sign and a few ad on TV would do the job much quicker and more cheaply and efficiently. (Why this is not done is explained here.)
So what value does all this activity generate? None! What new food or invention was available because Stacey called me to tell me about a "business opportunity"? I would have eaten lunch anyway, that day, but wouldn't have wasted the gas to drive to a lunch meeting I didn't enjoy. I might have just driven around the block a dozen times for all the difference it made.
Marketing, sales, and talk, on their own, don't make the world wealther. And this activity is all about talk. Remember, in the previous example, wealth (in the form of the flint axes) was actually created. But none of this activity creates wealth. It just burns it in a very inefficient manner.
In the end, the vast majority of Quixtar IBOs will drop out without ever having broken even. But consider what they could have done: If they really, really enjoyed it all, then it was no worse than a vacation. But if they could have worked elsewhere, then the world is definitely a poorer place, and we are without whatever contributions they might have given us with those hours.
(Imagine, for example, they'd decided to do community service instead. We'd have more, better playgrounds. Or imagine they'd done landscaping -- people in town would have had slightly better selection and quality when they wanted to landscape their yard.)
So, looking at the whole of Quixtar activity, nothing is produced.
Survivor: Quixtar
A very simple way of seeing this is to imagine you placed a bunch of Quixtar IBOs on an island, and told them to do only Quixar-related stuff. Imagine you even left them with a bunch of prospects to work on. Assuming your instructions were followed, how do you think they will have contributed to the island's economy when you checked back a few years later?
That's right: They'd be dead of starvation. Nothing on the island would have been improved by their activities. No positive economic impact at all.
And worse, before dying, they probably spent time pestering the potential sponsors you left there, who would otherwise have been busy lashing together their bamboo huts to weather the hurricane, and collecting crab and fruit to eat. They might have even lost a few valuable economic contributors to Quixtar, people who could have helped build another fishing raft or figured out a better way to construct the huts.
So it's negative all around, and thus Quixtar activity makes the world a worse place. You might as well burn dollar bills, or do something else you'd enjoy more. But definitely don't do this instead of any other kind of work.
And since Quixtar doesn't create any wealth, you can see that the guys who are getting rich are getting it by taking it from people downline, who are losing their wealth. And they generally lose a lot of wealth in order to put a few dollars into their upline's hands.
Though there's much talk of "quitting your day job", the truth is that without day jobs, there would be no Quixtar. The money flow goes like this: Sally works a day job to earn money to live. She becomes an IBO and now buys things from Quixtar, using the money earned at her day job. Some goes to Quixtar instead of Kroger (or whatever), and some -- the extra she's paying in increased product costs -- goes to her various uplines. Who don't have to work anymore. Maybe.
So that's where their wealth comes from. Her day job. Meanwhile, she's doing less work, sleeping less, and trying to get everyone she knows (or even doesn't) to have these meetings with her...
Counter-Arguments
A number of exceptions might be raised to what I mention above. I'll raise them myself so you don't have to:
Wait? Aren't the uplines getting wealthy?
Yes. But that's just a matter of rearranging the wealth (inefficiently), not creating it. Put sardonically, it's like trying to keep the titantic afloat by rearranging the deck chairs. Or trying to fix (inflate) a flat by swapping the tires.
Hey! Quixtar invents some good products! They have patents!
This is an excellent counterargument. My response would be that unless Quixtar's new products are on the level of nuclear fusion they're not likely to make up for the HUGE amount of lost time, effort, and material a million active IBOs will squander running around trying to contact and talk to six new people each week -- not to mention the amount of time those people now had to spend figuring out what this nonsense was all about. Not to mention all the cheerleading sessions.
And no, XS Energy Drink, tasty though it may be, does not rise to that level.
You forgot about the conventions!
If Quixtar IBOs, who'd never take a vacation but just sat home reading a book, went to a convention, then perhaps we'd have something -- small -- there. But my impression is that people are just spending their vacations in different ways, meaning that wealth is transferred, not created. For example, Bob decided to forget the Disney vacation and went to Detroit instead.
Worse, it occurs to me that some people may be putting off necessary tasks, like home maintenence, to do these things. Meaning that there will not be a few more somewhat-more-decrepit houses in the world. The same is true if time was taken from the day job which would not have otherwise been spent on some kind of vacation.
But people are improved by reading books! They might become smarter workers in their day job because of this!
Touche! I grant this point. But only to the effect it applies to non-Quixtar business activity. Being more efficient at burning dollar bills -- or more persuasive at convincing people to start channeling their efforts into a system which burns wealth-creating power -- only makes the world worse faster.
Even the positive effect, here the alleged improvement at other work, has to be pretty darned good in order to compensate for a million or so active IBOs burning about 10 of their 50-70 work hours a week (40 work, 10-20 chores, 10 Quixtar) on something that generates no value.
But, hey, what if I like to do this!
Then bully for you -- then it's as good or bad as any other non-paying hobby which doesn't help people. (Except for the effect is has on those you sign up.) Making friends is great. But there a lot of ways of doing that.
Would hurting people justify making friends? Say I made some fun friends while vandalizing your neighborhood. Say I even learned some artistic skills. Would that make it worthwhile? No, because there are less harmful ways of achieving the same effects.
Further, if this is an ethically-challenged activity, you're only going to be making friends who (a) don't realize it (and thus there's a limit on IQ for these sorts) and (b) realize it (no IQ limit) but aren't bothered by that (and so aren't very ethical). You won't get a lot of really smart and ethical friends.
But I notice they're not selling it as a "fun" activity. When I sat through the meeting, the emphasis was on wealth with occasional disclaimers about work. As fun -- well, everybody has their own tastes. But most people don't get into this because they're bored of solitaire.
What about you? You're writing about this! Doesn't that waste time?
I've spent probably 80-120 hours of my life, so far, on Quixtar. Just a guess. Now keep in mind, Quixtar asks each participant to spend 10 hours a week, for about 520 hours a year. Not to mention the old cashola you spend.
So if I talk even one person out of spending their time this way, I've easily freed up another 520 hours of useful time, either for leisure, which they'll at least enjoy more, or for useful economic activity. So, even though I'm personally not making a penny, in terms of improving the economy, these few postings seem to be a great economic investment for my countrymen.
You seem awful fixated on wealth and materialism. What about spirtual values?
Since Quixtar sells itself on economic terms, I have to address it on the same grounds. This kind of analysis isn't meant to decide the proper overall view of material things, but just to discuss what material effects Quixtar has, for those who believe it's bad to hurt other people.
I personally believe that God created both wealth and work, and that they can be useful if used the way he tells us. But when we let our desire for wealth come ahead of our love for Him, we can often hurt others and ourselves as well. Thus I believe that having a love of God is an important counterweight to these kinds of temptations. I also believe he will ask us to account for these things.
Conclusion
I hope I was able to make this comprehensible. This isn't meant to show how smart I am or something like that -- my sincere hope is that people, even those who currently make a living from Quixtar, will understand the kind of overall effect the Quixtar system has, and will stop plowing their effort into it.
For those who are getting started, it's good enough to appeal to your greed: Remember, it's unlikely you'll be one of the winners; the average IBO, if they work about 10 a week, earns something around $3/hour or less.
For those who are already making good money, keeping their eyes focused on the success stories, and satisfied that the many exceptions are just due to their own moral failings, I can only appeal to your altruism: Please stop hurting more people than you help.
Thank you all for your time and patience. God bless.
Your an Idiot and you don't know what your talking about
Anonymous coward: Like anyone else, you're welcomed to point out what's wrong with the case laid out above. Insults are the mark of a person who can't think of anything else to say.
Tell me this.. what is one thing you do for a living? Drink beer, watch tv, stay on your computer rambling about anything. What kind of impact have you made on society.n This site. Lauging Ha Ha Ha. Are you serving the country, are you helping the needy? People can analyze and analyze anything for years, months, days about anything but if you haven't actually tried doing anything of the matter you talk about your just a voice. You could probably as well be a communist or socialist. We don't know. It's funny do you have a number we anyone can contact you. Any information were your opinions are legit. The media is always been bullshit. They want you to hear what they want you to hear. There is only little truth and too much damn opinions. Hey in every work force there is always that one that wants to deface there employer, or opponent. That bag of a loser. For all i know is that you could probably be working for those company trying to put down Quixtar. I've been there done that served my country but who are you. DO YOU WORK FOR COSTCO or WALMART! DO YOU CHECK MY RECIEPT 10 FEET AWAY FROM WHERE I JUST PURCHASED MY BAG GOODS. WTF? i guess im just writing nonsense to this site cuz im tired of this damn site. Pointless nonsense. Although some of the findings is true. The true nature of it is you gotta experience and learn. I know for a fact that the Quixtar education system is pretty damn knowledgable other than the fact that it may get pricey but school is pricey. What do you think college will get you every or anywhere. You need trades, intricate networks of people connection and a mouth of shut the F up. If you haven't experienced then know your roll and shut your mouth.
i think im finish now and if your just going to say "you anonymous coward" i laugh at you. you are an idiot for an religious being.
eveything is a damn pyramid people. Damn your family is a pyramid unless its disfunctional, the F'in govt. is a pyramid. the damn military is a pyramid. YOu have to know what kind of pyramid your getting into thats all. Im in a pyramid. A pyramid of retard F's that think they know everything and probably at the top about to fall off..HaHa
.. and that is your brain on Quixtar.
Yo John,
Your invectives certainly identify your personality type. I was in Amway/Quixtar for 9 years. Worked the biz 30 to 40 hours a week and was as plugged into the system as deeply as its possible to get. I was as completely blind to what was really happening as you appear to be. I learned and experienced that the kingpins were heartless monsters that only had one primary goal in mind. That was to glean every penny they could from the distributor force through a SYSTEM of worthless tapes, books and functions. They out right lied to my wife and I that they were making their lifestyle from the products and that everyone paid the same price for the SYSTEM. When it was all said and done after nine years I was 40,000 in debt and my wife had divorced me. It was only sites like this one that opened my eyes to my endentured slavery. Perhaps it will take more than this site for you to understand what is happening to you. A paradigm shift can be a painful thing, frought with risk, but I would suggest that this is probably what you will need to recover your sanity.
Some people have way to much time on their hands, Its amazing the lengths people will go to propagate negative. If you spent as much time uplifting people as you do destroying peoples dreams, you would feel more fullfilled in life. Move on and get a life. This obviously is your only claim to fame.Spend your time building your future instead of destroying others.
But my dear friend, you seemed to have missed the point: Quixtar isn't, on average, helping people. By warning people, I'm not "destroying" them, but helping them. But I suppose you'd see sign warning people of a flooded road as "propagating negative" too. ;-)
Or do you have something to gain from trapping them in the flood? You seem to, from the cult-like terminology you use ("Propagate negative?" Oh please. Run, people, run.)
I'm amazed, in a nation where the average person spends about 28 hours per week watching television, how touchingly concerned you are that I might spend 90 minutes documenting what I see as a trap which harms many people.
How good of you to be so concerned about what I do with my free time.
You wouldn't be one of those people who spends more than twice that amount cheering about Quixtar each week, would you? ;-)
After 16 years of being in the A/Q cult system its good to see sites like this.Your upline will tell you anything to get you to stay in and keep making them rich.Dex said he wants people to think and then think right.He wants you to think like he wants you too think, not think on your own.Pray to God for wisdom and not any man on this earth and you will see.Think about there things!
Tapes cost less than a dollar.
Hotel meeting rooms cost?2 or 3 hours?
Bookstores are available everywhere?
Phone conferences available and chat rooms?
Download music sites why not business sites?
This is the year 2004 isn't it?
Their system isn't made for your good ,only their good.Dex spent 40 million on his tool factory several years ago and are you still paying for it even though it's out-dated.
Tim: I love your blog, and I won't talk about all the obvious reasons like the validaity of your arguments and your writing skills, I love it more as you are a 'right wingist' and Quixtar also fell on that side. They often attack critics as liberals and leftist.
The best thing I love is comments by pro-morons :)
And yes I agree with you, writing abut Quixtar is a LOT of fun than watching TV. It is my hobby now as well. Every 2nd guy is writing about them and I'm loving it.
When will they learn:
The truth is neither negative or postitive, but simply the truth?
I spent 20 years "in the system" (I am referring to an AMO, not to the Q corp itself.) The AMO's are, indeed, cults.
Run away.
Every time I hear about Quixtar/Amway I'm surprised at how few people are willing to take responsibility on either end (pro or con) with what is going on. People have inter changed their opinions or their analysis of certain facts for what they believe is true. People will always see things with a slant in favor of what they hope to see.
Anti Quixtar people will continually look for holes in the people and the business model and find them. This is not because they are negative or losers, but because their are serious character flaws in some peoples and the business.
However, the next questions to ask is...aren't their holes in every system created that have people involved?
It's interesting to see people interchanging a debate regarding a business plan and people character flaws. Because there are flaws in the people doesn't mean the business won't work. Because there are flaws in the business doesn't mean it won't work for people.
The reason this seems to be important is that we have interchanged Quixtar with the AMO's and the AMO's with the distributors. If we are going to analysis Quixtar as a viable income source then we need to begin to approach it with the logic of business school.
This post paints too wide of a brush to be useful. Just like LawDawg’s post on Saturation. Let us stop posting out of our pride and hurt and begin to realize that both sides have a piece of the truth and most would do well to consider them.
Soobonn,
I think you didn't read the post.
Anti Quixtar people will continually look for holes in the people and the business model and find them. This is not because they are negative or losers, but because their are serious character flaws in some peoples and the business.
You seemed to have missed the point entirely. This not about a few bad Quixtar IBOs, or a case where one or twelve of them did it wrong. Where above did I say any such thing? Quote the lines, please.
Quixtar simply generates no wealth. If you want to dispute this, show which part of the business create new wealth, or innovates by creating new services. Don't argue with points which aren't being made.
However, the next questions to ask is...
... as though you'd even considered the first one...
aren't their holes in every system created that have people involved?
My point isn't that Quixtar or Quixtar IBOs have some problems. My point is that Quixtar-related activities, unlike "real" work, don't make the world a better place.
This is a fundamental difference, similar to comparing stained glass construction with rock-throwing. No amount of throwing rocks creates value. Quixtar IBOs may not understand they are not doing useful work, but that doesn't make it untrue.
Again, if I'm a bricklayer, the world is a "richer" place when my day is done, because brick walls and sidings are a form of wealth, and there are more of them when I go home to dinner.
By contrast, if I'm a Quixtar IBO, and I talk to 36 people in 3 weeks, and get one person to sign up, there is no material improvement in the world created by that activity.
That is an incredibly simple proposition. Are you that completely unable to understand?
It's interesting to see people interchanging a debate regarding a business plan and people character flaws. Because there are flaws in the people doesn't mean the business won't work.
Unstop your ears man: I'm not saying it doesn't work because someone has a character flaw. I'm saying it doesn't improve things because it generates no wealth.
Let's say I call 36 people and discuss Quixtar, and I do with with a bad attitude, and lie constantly.
What new wealth was created? None. Are there new cars? Better houses? More food? No.
Now let's say I call 36 more and discuss it with a good attitude, telling them the truth, at least as far as I can understand it.
So are those cars, houses and food there now, because I have now executed the same "plan" with fewer character flaws?
No. Not even then. The attitude, or character of the one doing it made no difference in the question as to whether this activity generated wealth.
Is any of this sinking through yet?
Questions of character only come into play only once you realize what you are doing hurts people. Then, we discuss character flaws.
For example, imagine multiple people explained, in several different ways, how a particular type of activity was inherantly hurtful, overall. Now imagine someone who does that activity read that argument, couldn't find anything wrong with it, but instead decided to protect their self-image through various self-deluding tactics, such as imputing bad motives to the one who pointed it out or mouthing shallow, unproven contentions.
That, then would show a flaw in the character of the person in question: He was given the truth (or something that looked like it -- not that he wanted to check further, for fear it might actually be right), but he cared more about his own self-image than the question of whether he was, in fact, hurting people.
This is merely a hypothetical example, you understand.
The reason this seems to be important is that we have interchanged Quixtar with the AMO's and the AMO's with the distributors. If we are going to analysis Quixtar as a viable income source then we need to begin to approach it with the logic of business school.
You seem to be engaged in distracting yourself from the point at hand. And I doubt you've been to business school or studied economics, so you probably have no idea what you're saying here. It's all very well and nice to talk about whether someone has "interchanged" parts of Quixtar. But it doesn't cause any Quixtar-related to make the world a better place.
No amount of changing your "thinking" or "message" or "ethics" causes this to be true.
This post paints too wide of a brush to be useful. Just like LawDawg’s post on Saturation. Let us stop posting out of our pride and hurt and begin to realize that both sides have a piece of the truth and most would do well to consider them.
Try to understand: We all inhabit a shared reality. If someone says something, like "Gravity pulls down", you can't simply deal with that by alleging the idea is suggested "out of pride and hurt". First, it's dubious you have any access to their mental state. Second, their mental state doesn't affect the truth or falsity of the proposition.
Likewise, you can't just say "Oh, you've painted with too broad a brush". Such a statement, alone, suggests you disagree with the proposition but have no counterexamples to give. If there are exceptions, then show them. If not, then you have no basis for saying otherwise.
Again, consider:
A: "All right-handed people own Volvos."
B: "That's too broad a brush."
A: "Prove it."
B: "This is my brother. He's right handed, he doesn't own a Volvo."
A: "Oh, okay. Touche!"
So, if you have some counterexample, some way in which Quixtar generates wealth on the whole, please present it. Otherwise, there's no particular reason for anyone to take your claim to the contrary seriously.
Nor think you're doing anything except distracting yourself from the argument at hand.
You argue that Quixtar does not generate any wealth. How many retail stores have you worked for? My guess would be none. Or if you have they never let you look into their computer systems so that you could see the mark-up on a lot of the items. I ,however, work at Wal-Mart and the mark-up on any given item is 75 to 500 percent. Hmmm, now consider the information that Quixtar gives about the chain of distribution. Just think about it for a minute...Amazing isn't it. They got it right.
Now think about the percentages that they give out their "paychecks" with. If you would set down and do the math then you would understand that it all works out in the end. Just like they expain it when you actually pay attention. Trust me, I did the math quite extensively after I found out about them. The Quixtar business model has been well thought out, which I must give kudos to whoever figured it out, and has been laid out in such a way to create wealth that most people won't take it at face value.
Have you looked closely at the McDonald's business model lately? It is the EXACT SAME thing. If you took the McDonald's business model, or any franchise model for that matter, and put it into the virtual world of the internet you would come out with the exact same network of wealth. And like the McDonald's model each business owner has to really on LOCATION. Just think about that for a little bit...Would you disagree that McDonald's is creating wealth for the people that have joined in on it? No.
Just something for you guys, and girls, to think about. Yes, I have done my homework. And yes I believe that the Quixtar model works. Unfortunately, it does not work for the people that can't accept that the money that drives this world along is so readily accessible. So, now you can all go back to your little pathetic lives and start complaining some more about why you are poor. You don't get rich by complaining, an you don't enrich anyone else's lives by doing it either.
So as much as you say that this site is designed to help people escape from the "Quixtar Trap" all you are really trying to do is hide from your own inability to function in a free-enterprise community, and try to cover up your own conditioned mind.
I didn't go to college because I thought it was a waste of my time and talents and money. All that time just to get a piece of paper that says that I can do something. Whoopy....Give me a break. Colleges are just another way for people to get rich off of someone elses stupidity. Anything that you can learn in college you can learn on your own. After all, most libraries carry all those text books you buy to go to college and learn. What is really stopping you from going out and learning on your own?
Nathan,
You argue that Quixtar does not generate any wealth. How many retail stores have you worked for? My guess would be none.
Your guess would be wrong. (I've never see a group of people so very interested in every last detail of my life. And such a bad group of guessers, on average, too.)
You seem to working from two false assumptions, ones I can quickly dispell, I hope.
The first seems to be that you think I'm saying retail sales adds no economic value. Read it again: I've said no such thing -- retail sales are very valuable, economically.
My point is that Quixtar adds no value to what's already out there. Since demand was already being met, when an IBO switches over to Quixtar, in general they don't have anything they didn't or couldn't have had before.
Imagine I'm digging a ditch. That's valuable: A world with ditches is better than one without. Now you come along, and I stop digging, and you start.
Is the world any better? No, no net difference. The same amount of ditch digging is going on here.
You seem to think I'm saying ditch digging, or retail sales, adds no value. No, I'm pointing out no value is created by switching participants.
If Quixtar competed directly with stores, and had lower prices, that might help a tiny amount. But neither of those is true, since generally people don't shop Quixtar competitively the same way they do with local and other online retailers.
So, as I said above, Quixtar adds no value to this situation. Value is simply transferred. That's not the same as creating it, just as no net wealth was created when I handed you the shovel and you took over.
Now, the next thing you seem to be confused about is the "location" thing. This is just a distraction to throw you off the scent. And it seems to have worked.
I've got some news for you: Quixar isn't the only online retailer. Pretty much everything you can buy from Quixtar you could have bought somewhere else online. (The same thing was true back in the days of mail-order Amway.)
So this reverts to the previous situation: IBO's still aren't getting anything from Quixtar they couldn't have gotten otherwise.
Now some IBOs, like you apparently, seem to think the "online" part of this a good, money-saving thing. Because Quixtar tells them it is.
But that's a lie. Ask yourself: If you could have bought your groceries and potato chips online before you were an IBO, then why didn't you?
The answer is because, as expensive as retail is, buying online and shipping is, for certain kinds of products, even more costly.
If it wasn't, you would have been doing it before you joined Quixtar.
So you're probably losing money, not saving it, since you probably would have chosen the cheaper way of getting it otherwise.
So that's a net economic loss to you, but no change overall, because the difference in cost goes to the shipping company.
Now there's a third and final point I want to make to you -- again. This seems particularly hard for IBOs to understand...
I tell them that Quixtar is, roughly, "just like" retail, except for the upline payments. Then, in horror, they write back to me, correcting my alleged ignorance, telling me it's "just like" retail.
Well, duh. That was part of my point.
Except they always forget to mention the other part, the upline payments, which make all the difference in the world.
Somehow, they think this is an insignificant part of the business. Which is exactly what the Quixtar AMOs want them to think.
But I wouldn't be writing all this stuff if it weren't for those little upline payments. You don't see me discussing McDonalds and Target, do you? No.
(IBOs are fond of making this point, but they never stop to ask themselves why it's so. I mean, if I wrote about Target, do you think several hundred IBOs would come here all defensive? No. Or even several hundred target employees? Or stockholders? No. So think, you guys -- ask yourself -- what do you think you're here and all defensive about Quixtar? What's the difference? C'mon you guys, you can spot the big difference if you really think about it. And no, it's not "location". Hint for the challenged: It's the upline payments. That changes everything.)
And, regarding the impact of those little upline payments, you can go back and reread the post above, because I'm getting tired of re-typing each and every argument written there.
Thank you much.
Maybe I am missing one of your "points". If you are saying that Quixtar adds no wealth because you could have got the same or similar already and for cheaper, then why are all the retail stores and manufacturers out there in the same category? After all there are already the same or similar products available. Wouldn't life be very dull and very controlling with only one store, one manufacturer, of like products. It is about choice. It is about competitive pricing. I will grant you Quixtar is more expensive so therefore to me I wouldn't buy their products. But it is nice to live in a country where chice is available. As far as upline payments, when I purchase a product anywhere, I don't give much thought about where the money goes and how much goes to each area. I only know I have to pay a certain amount for what I am getting. What happened to Quixtar was the greed by those at the upper levels in convincing those below them that the purchase of their "training materials" would make them successful. If people would just do their research, use their heads a lot would be avoided. I refuse to believe however that all direct sales, MLM's etc are bad. Some are not, just as there is good and bad in every walk of life. Maybe you say try the traditional way instead. 95% of all small businesses fail in the first year, often at tremendous losses to those just trying to better their lives a little. Why not do a justice and when you do find a direct sales that is worthy of praise that you do that as well. Why not take your views and email them to the direct sales association?
I love the McDonalds argument concerning the franchise model. There is one gaping flaw in that argument though; McDonalds franchises all stem from the same point. There is one corporation, and all franchises must be purchased via that single corporation. Yes Quixtar is a single corporation and all distributorships must be purchased through Quixtar. However, McDonalds is not making its money from the sponsoring of downline restaurants. All chains are on equal footing and each has an equal opportunity to generate wealth. How many McDonalds have shut down due to market saturdation? I can't think of any in my area. I wonder if that's because the corporation will only allow a certain number of chains in any given geographic region...unlike Quixtar.
I'd like to look at economic value from another angle for a minute. We can look at Quixtar and the Motivational Organization each seperately. As shown before, Quixtar does not create economic wealth because it offers the same products as other retailers, only at higher costs (embedding the prices to cover the "upline payments" that will one day make every IBO rich - HEEE!).
Looking at the QMO though, I think that this is a much better example of diminishing economic wealth. Motivational Tools (tapes, CD's) are made for $0.50 each (estimated) and sold to the end-user (non-Platinum IBO) for $8.25 (that's a 1625% markup). The platinum IBO makes the least amount off the sale $0.50 - $1.00) but yet invests the most time attempting to market the goods. Whereas the higher-ups are making much more money off these goods and investing very little time in their marketing. So, even the platinum IBO (which is touted as the point where IBOs start to see a net profit) is decreasing his wealth.
This doesn't even begin to cover the ethical issues that arrise because your upline, who wants nothing more than for you to succeed (HEEEEEE! - sorry that's the funniest thing I've heard lately) is making money of the "training system". Not just on tapes and books, but on the functions as well. Some EDC can walk away with $400,000 in his pocket after a weekend function. Not to mention that you are forced to book your room through their website where they take the group rate and tack on $10 or so of pure profit. It even goes lower than that. If you are chartering buses for a weekend to go to a function, let's say you take 3 busses. Each bus holds roughly 48 people. So, that's 144 people. Each person pays $100 to go on the bus, so that means that is costs $14,400 to charter three busses for 72 hours?? That means each bus is being billed at a rate of $66.67 per hour, even though there's only 20 hours or so of driving involved? Yes, your upline only has your success in mind, remember, they don't succeed until you succeed.
There is also another arguement to the counter-arguement of self improvement by the tools and all the "positive people". It is absoltely amazing how quickly those wonderful people will shrug you off once you start missing some cheerleading sessions. So, that would lead one to believe that those people are really only your friends if you are "sold-out" to the business. Not to mention that they will start to talk about you behind your back (e.g. you're a loser, a quitter, a negative person). Those are some great friends!
Talking in terms of the tools and self improvement (book reading), that's also an unrealistic claim as well. You may be able to improve your self image by reading, but it only pertains to the Quixtar environment. So, if you were to leave the environment for any reason, that would then negate that positive effect because of all those loving people who, all of a sudden would rather you be dead instead of killing their dreams because you are a quitter and a loser.
Being a 1500pv IBO after six months in Quixscam, Quasar, whatever you want to call it, I have come to these realizations. My wife, on the other hand, thinks that I'm full of it. I guess she can't see the diminishing assets (time, funds, logical thought) without any ROI. She's not buying my approach. Is there another way to go about it?
Your bud,
Frank
Dan,
Maybe I am missing one of your "points". If you are saying that Quixtar adds no wealth because you could have got the same or similar already and for cheaper, then why are all the retail stores and manufacturers out there in the same category? After all there are already the same or similar products available. Wouldn't life be very dull and very controlling with only one store, one manufacturer, of like products. It is about choice. It is about competitive pricing. I will grant you Quixtar is more expensive so therefore to me I wouldn't buy their products.
You're clearly starting to understand. This is good.
Think of an imaginary rural town. When the first grocery store opens, it's a huge improvement over having none. Later, a second store opens: this is good too, because it causes the first store to have to compete better on price, even if it doesn't carry anything different. After the second store opens, people are going to get even more food for their dollar.
Maybe more open: As each new store opens, there is less and less positive economic improvement. Now, at some point, demand is met. When this point is exceeded, new retailers don't add any new value: They just transfer customers from older ones. At some point, if there are more stores than the demand requires, somebody in town will have to close their doors. Equilibrium will be maintained.
Now think of Quixtar: Demand was being met without Quixtar. So we're not looking at a situation where, like the second or third store, it might be meeting an unmet need.
Furthermore, all those great things we're saying about the competition you get with the 2nd or 3rd store don't (generally) apply to Quixtar: Those who are "in" try to buy most of all their products from Quixtar regardless of slight increases in price. And those who are "out" tend to buy none (or very close to none) of their products from Quixtar.
You yourself just admitted the prices are higher. Right! That's the point. People aren't buying from Quixtar because they compete on price, so Quixtar isn't even helping lower market prices, as even the 183rd online pants retailer might.
So that just leaves a wealth transfer.
Even if Quixtar *did* compete a bit (say, people were making some decisions on a few product areas), I'd argue this small positive contribution was, again, completely flooded out by the tsunami of negative economic effect described above. Even if could argue Quixtar had helped an IBOs save a few cents on a pair of pants, that gain would quickly be overshadowed by a single "plan-sharing" meeting, counting gas and time, even at minimum wage.
But, as it is, I don't believe even that small effect ever happens, and there are two reasons for this, one of which I will, again, restate from above.
(1) While it might be possible to find a product or two where Quixtar is cheaper, because of the upline payments, they must always be more expensive, on aggregate, than a "normal" retailer.
You can't get something for nothing.
So even if you save a few cents on pants, you're going to have to be paying it back on cereal or vitamins or laptops.
Because there must be extra costs to cover the upline payments. Again, you can't get something for nothing.
(2) Even further, once people start "tranferring their purchasing power" into Quixtar, they essentially stop shopping competitively. Many former IBOs have noted this phenomenon, when they say, as Eric does, that it tends to degrade your sense of quality.
Quixtar is not typically like a grocery store, where you'll find several competing brands: it is an artificial, closed, controlled marketplace, where other brands can compete only when and how Quixtar allows.
So if Quixtar wants you to have their vitamins, you won't be seeing One-A-Day, Flintstones' or Centrum. If Quixtar wants you to have one of their vaunted detergent products, you won't be seeing Tide or Cheer.
So this further increases your costs, because you tend to stop "shopping around". And thus, you are getting less for your dollar for this reason too.
And one person getting less for their dollar is a net negative, economically. And thus I suggest that even without considering the effect of the upline payments, if you really want to look at this area, you'll see it's a net negative.
But I grant it as a zero above, because I'm concerned people won't even get the main point, much less these subtler effects.
Like I said, even if we stipulated Quixtar was "just like" the 183rd next online pants retailer, that is, as a slight new net positive, that small positive is dwarfed in comparison to the wealth-consuming behavior which characterizes the Quixtar IBO experience.
So you made a very good point. But even if true, it's not enough. But it's not true, as you even admit when you point out you wouldn't shop there competitively because of the higher prices. Right. That proves the point: you're no different than any other consumer. They won't either.
Kudos to you, Dan, for a good observation!
Frank,
However, McDonalds is not making its money from the sponsoring of downline restaurants. All chains are on equal footing and each has an equal opportunity to generate wealth. How many McDonalds have shut down due to market saturdation? I can't think of any in my area.
This is very good point, Frank! Thanks for sharing it, and the rest of your experience as well.
I've mentioned this in other postings, and others, elsewhere, will point this out as well:
Look at McDonald's: Do you think a Mickey-D's owner would be happy to hear there was another one going to open across the street? No, he'd be furious; hopping mad. Calling the mothership and asking what on earth they're doing. Probably suing.
Real franchisees want as few similar competitors in their area as possible.
Now look at Quixtar: In Quixtar, people are trying to create as many "franchisees" in their area as possible.
The exact opposite.
Why?
This is proof that money is made from the franchisees, not really from selling product. McDonald's makes its money off hamburgers sold to the public, not it's franchisees. But Quixtar makes its money off the franchisees themselves, and only that.
Again, the money comes from the fact that lowest-level franchisees have to keep their day jobs. That's not an unfortunate effect; it's what powers the whole system. Without all those "day jobs" there would be no Quixtar.
And I agree with your point about "people improvement", and have addressed it in the posting above: Such is only useful as far as it applies to non-Quixtar work. If Quixtar is a net negative, doing more of it, or being more persuasive when doing it, just serves to make it a bigger negative.
As far as convincing your wife, that's a toughie. I'd say make sure you, in your own head, fully understand all the issues, and can explain that clearly to others. That's important.
The main point is that this is just "pyramid" scheme (well, matrix, but close enough) where the product purchases are there to "launder" the upline payments and make them legal. Everything else flows from there.
Guys like AmwayMan will point out a "paradigm shift" is needed -- something to break them loose. Perhaps getting her to keep track of expenses versus income will help, in order to show this isn't profiting. And you could show her the income statistics, too.
I also happen to buy into the adage: "Work like everything depends upon man, pray like everything depends upon God." Not that I always do that. But if you believe in that, you could consider that too.
I wish you luck on that one, friend. Keep us posted.
Wow Tim! Looks like to me that a lot of emotion is out there buzzing around the biz. Some of it appears to be folks with rational thinking going on and some serious desire for communication. Some of it however is a good example of those that have been indoctrinated by the SYSTEM. Even their verbiage comes right off a tape or out of a book or even from going to a function. It never ceases to amaze me that at one time I was just like these folks who are defending a process that is taking their hard earned funds and using them to support a group of MONSTERS. All your posts are excellant but I think at some point they are lost on some of these folks, I understand, they never will. Especially as long as they are on SOT, BOM, Meetings, STP, and FUNCTIONS... For myself my wife wised up long before I did and I was so thoroughly brainwashed that I lost her because I could not see beyond the SYSTEM. For a long time I thought I was to blame for what happened to us and my blindness when it came to the QMO's. I have since learned that certain personality types are susceptable to the QMO's, me being one. That is why change is so tough, the damn SYSTEM is like a drug addiction and it requires abstinance to clear the mind and recover your sanity.
I find it kind of funny that the first thing that you decided to try and argue away was the fact that you have worked in retail. The simplest and easiest thing to destroy. Nice way to start to gain a little bit of momentum, huh? Thing is, you argued that I was wrong, and yet you never bothered to explain exactly what you did regarding your employment in retail. Really. You should try and back up your arguements with some facts and evidence.
Then you decided to try and use the McDonald's franchise to say that they wouldn't open multiple franchises close to each other. That is simply laughable. That very same business just opened up another place with 100 yards of another one. And BOTH of them are doing VERY well. They are both booming with more business than just the one did. Like I said, it is LOCATION.
And as for the target arguments and so forth, well next time you buy something there because you can get it cheaper look toward the bottom of the bag. Guess what you'll find. A nice little dot com web site. Did you know that they tell their employees to get people to go on that web site? How many employees actually do that? Virtually none.
After all, if they did and got the customer's to shop at the on-line site then they would be out of a job. Simple fact: ALL RETAIL STORES WANT THEIR CUSTOMERS TO SHOP FROM THEM ON-LINE. There is virtually no over head expenses. I tried to run a conventional business, I had no competition in my town, and the over head expenses killed me.
I actually liked the one post on here that explained about choice. That is all this is. A choice. I chose to start up a business with Quixtar as my supplier. That is all Quixtar is. Just like Golden State Foods is to McDonalds. The McDonalds franchises don't go to anyone but them to get their supplies. They can't go anywhere else. They are not allowed. They are under contract, and no matter what companies might give any given McDonalds a better deal they aren't allowed to use those products.
So as much as you argue that Quixtar is bad and that it creates no wealth, it is just a choice. It is just a supplier. So if you really want to bash Quixtar, go ahead. You might as well try bashing Golden State Foods as well. It will make about as much difference in the real world. You can't stop it from growing or changing. About all you can do is ruin people's thoughts with negative input.
I have met many people like you in my life. People that say you can't this, or you can't that. You chouldn't this, you shouldn't that. And every time I have proved them wrong. By the end of the year I will be making three times as much by using Quixtar as a supplier than I will be making at my current job. So keep yapping about Quixtar not creating any wealth, I really don't care. Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them. And so will everyone that supports me.
Besides that, it gives me something to do with my time rather than vegetate in front of a TV like the rest of you. And if you decide to ask why I look at this site, it is because I do have time to relax a little bit every now and then. I like to argue with people that don't really look at a bigger picture. I enjoy a good debate every now and then. So, yeah, you all are my amuzement every now and then. Later.
And you, mine, Nathan.
First, I notice you still haven't produced an example of how Quixtar generates wealth. Perhaps to distract from this weakness, you seem to want to have a lot of side discussions -- like whether I worked retail -- as if that might somehow change whether or not Quixtar generates wealth.
Second, I don't entertain people who come on here demanding details about my personal life. Period. It's rude, and not your business. If I want to tell you something about it, that's my choice, not yours. I've given you the truth on this point, and you'll have to live with it. I feel no more need to "prove" something this stupid to you than I would my own shoe size.
Third, if you really want to get other people "proving" things, you go first: Let's see your tax returns for your highest paying year. Online. With that line reporting how much Quixtar has made you.
Fourth, you have given no reason why such a thing is even relevant: You seem to be think that somehow only people who have worked at McDonald's or Walmart can understand basic economics. No offense, but I'd guess that probably goes the other way 'round; retail work isn't exactly rocket science.
Then you decided to try and use the McDonald's franchise to say that they wouldn't open multiple franchises close to each other. That is simply laughable. That very same business just opened up another place with 100 yards of another one. And BOTH of them are doing VERY well. They are both booming with more business than just the one did. Like I said, it is LOCATION.
Since you demand everyone else "prove" everything, please post the addresses of these two McDonald's. I'd be interested enough to investigate that.
Sure, there are times when two businesses of the same brand will open up nearby -- there are exceptions to every rule. For example, my bank was stupid enough to close the only branch in my township, and yet left two branches open on the same street elsewhere, about a quarter-mile away from each other.
There may also be rare situations where demand is high enough to warrant such a measure.
But it's more the exception than the rule. And it happens even less in a franchise. (The same owner might open two stores, but a good franchise will never allow two franchisees to locate that close.)
With Quixtar, this case isn't the exception -- it's the rule.
Think, Nathan: why is that different? It's because they make money off the franchisee, not the public. Think hard about that, Nathan.
I've never said location doesn't matter. I've just pointed out to you that there's nothing special about Quixtar being on the web -- there are plenty of other retailers which do this too.
Again, you seem to be arguing with someone else -- your statements seem to have almost no bearing what I say to you.
ALL RETAIL STORES WANT THEIR CUSTOMERS TO SHOP FROM THEM ON-LINE.
Again, you seem to be arguging against a statement I've certainly never made. I pointed out that most people don't buy certain products (e.g. groceries) on-line because it's more expensive for them that way, since they have to pay added delivery costs. And thus, that Quixtar will be a loss for them, for these products.
You've still said nothing to refute this point.
I actually liked the one post on here that explained about choice. That is all this is. A choice. I chose to start up a business with Quixtar as my supplier. That is all Quixtar is. Just like Golden State Foods is to McDonalds.
No, that's not all Quixtar is. Please pay attention:
Now there's a third and final point I want to make to you -- again. This seems particularly hard for IBOs to understand...
I tell them that Quixtar is, roughly, "just like" retail, except for the upline payments. Then, in horror, they write back to me, correcting my alleged ignorance, telling me it's "just like" retail.
Well, duh. That was part of my point.
Except they always forget to mention the other part, the upline payments, which make all the difference in the world.
Pay attention. You've had two chances now: Pretend I didn't say a third time, and you're out. Understand?
You can say the above statement is wrong, and provide evidence. You can even drop that line of argument. But you can't go on making the original point as though I haven't answered it.
I have taken time to answer your every point. If you don't have the civility to pay attention, acknowledge that I've answered, then it's not clear to me why anyone else should be forced to pay attention to your words either.
Most bloggers have little tolerance for people who mindlessly repeat the same argument over and over and can't cope with the fact that someone's responded to them. I'm certainly no exception.
It's stupid, and it's rude.
I find it appalling so many from your business are so inconsiderate in this manner, and it speaks very poorly of the organization you claim to represent.
So as much as you argue that Quixtar is bad and that it creates no wealth, it is just a choice. It is just a supplier.
Saying "it's a choice" -- no matter how many times you do it -- doesn't actually show Quixtar generates wealth.
Did you know that burning dollar bills is a choice, too? So is robbing people. So is spinning in a circle, chanting, until you grow dizzy and pass out. These are all choices.
Yet none of them generates wealth.
Again, you completely ignore my response to you, where I took my time to explain to you under what conditions added retail "choices" benefit people economically.
You appear to have no comeback, so, apparently lacking any kind of original thought, you repeat your original argument, as though nobody had spoken in response.
Like a small child, plugging his ears and yelling: "LALALALALA I can't hear you!!"
I have met many people like you in my life. People that say you can't this, or you can't that.
I've never said "you can't" anything. Again, you seem to be having some sort of hallucination, as you're certainly not responding to anything I've written.
And every time I have proved them wrong.
You haven't proved anything yet. You can barely address the topic at hand.
There's more to "proving" Quixtar is moral than making some cash at it. You'd actually have to -- you know -- show why it's moral.
Perhaps you could simply repeat the words: "It's a choice" a few more times? :-) As if all choices were moral.
By the end of the year I will be making three times as much by using Quixtar as a supplier than I will be making at my current job. So keep yapping about Quixtar not creating any wealth, I really don't care. Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them. And so will everyone that supports me.
No, everyone who "supports you" will not be making money. The fact that you think so indicates how very little you understand this business.
Nathan, look at the income statistics. Do the math. What's your average active IBO making, at 40 hours or so per month?
That's right, about $3.00 a hour. There's nothing special about you where you can change this.
Again, what are you making now? Even if it's only $23,000, the odds of making about $70K are less than one in 12,000. And even if you make that, everyone downline from you will still be making, on average, $3/hr (much less if you deduct expenses) -- a horrible return on their investment -- and buying products which are costing them, on average, much too much.
Perhaps you will be one of the "lucky" ones who makes a profit, someday. (Though mark my words: If you're just starting you will not make that much by the end of the year -- what are they telling you?)
If you'd read the post above -- which you don't seem to have, since you seem unfamilliar with even one point I make there -- you'll see that I'm not saying it's impossible to make money. Instead, I argue it's an immoral way to do it, if you happen to believe it's wrong to get ahead by screwing other people.
Because even if there are only a few that actually make a lot of money through this, I WILL be one of them.
From your own statement, it seems you're a person who does not hold such morals. As I said above, there's not much we can do to shame you -- you'd screw someone over for a buck, and there's nothing I'm going to be able to do to change your mind or dissaude you on that point.
All we can do is hope the best for those you intend to exploit in this manner, and hope they have the common sense to look here or elsewhere on the Internet before they put themselves in your greedy hands.
Visitors: This is what your would-be Quixtar sponsor, or their upline, is really like. They seem nice, but this is how they really think. You have been warned.
Nathan: Thank you for being an object lesson.
Ok, so you made me out to be a bad guy. Good job. Now let me clarify a few things for you. Maybe I might just stay on track this time.
Let's just say that I sign a contract with a manufacturer that says he will only provide me and anyone I see fit with the product he makes. So I take that product out and start marketing it. I get people to buy the product and I start to make money from it.
So now I go to my friends and I let them sell the product as well as long as they give me a small percentage of what they make. Now me and my friends are all making money off of this product. I hope I haven't strayed from the moral path yet. Then one of my friends comes up to me and tells me that he knows a couple of people that would be able to do this as well. So I let these people start to market this product as well. Now why shouldn't my friend make a percentage off of them if he was the one that found them. It would be wrong of me to take that money from them. So I let my friend get these people started.
I only get a percentage from what my friends make. Let's just say I get 2% of what they do. Now lets say that they make $5000 in their first month. I make $100 from them. And why shouldn't I? I gave them the opportunity. They get $4900 that month and I got $100. They are making more than I am. So how am I such a bad guy? Everyone is making a profit that joined this business with me. And I am making a profit. Wouldn't you say that that would generate wealth?
Now explain to me how this is any different from the Quixtar plan. Explain how this does not generate wealth for all parties envolved. You don't have to buy or use the product yourself, but if you do then that gives credibility to your business and your product. It is just good marketing strategy.
And those books and tapes and functions that you people keep going on and on about. THEY ARE ALL OPTIONAL. You don't have to attend a single one of them. You don't have to read a single book or even listen to a single damn tape. Excuse the language. You don't have to spend all that money to go to fuctions. These things just help to set you into the mindset of a business professional.
Now I hope that I stayed on track enough for you this time. In hindsight I realize that I did indeed lose the train of thought that I intended on following in my other posts. I apologize for this. I have a problem focusing on something for any amount of time.
Nathan,
I'm not saying buying and selling, and even taking a cut are somehow immoral. If you haven't picked this up already, I'm a capitalist.
The business plan you describe, if I understand it right (you don't specify this, so I have to guess) is based upon marketing your new product to the general public.
For example, Creative Memories, Pampered Chef, or Avon works like this: people become salespeople in their homes, invite friends over, show them the product, and take a cut. Their primary intent is convince their friends to become consumers of the product in question.
This is not how Quixtar works.
In the Quixtar "plan", what is being sold is primarily the plan itself. People are not mainly being persuaded to become consumers, but salespeople.
Again, there's this little, tiny entity called the external customer which is nearly completely missing from the Quixtar picture.
The more it costs you to sell your product, the less you'll make. Thus, in a normal business, economic pressures tend to try to sell as much as possible using as few salespeople as possible, because sales is an expense.
This is the opposite of Quixtar, which is trying to increase it's "sales force" because it makes money from sales, not from the the non-selling public.
Second, when you give back 2%, you are essentially paying your sales force. Even the people at the bottom will show a profit. But Quixtar functions by taking money from the lowest level of the 'sales' force.
Third, I'm assuming people are buying your product for it's own sake. For example generally people buy Avon products because they like them. I'm assuming the same is true with your new gizmo.
But people don't buy from Quixtar primarily because they like the product. If that were true, lots of people would sign up even if they didn't want to be an IBO.
Instead, just like with a chain letter, IBOs buy products from Quixtar primarily because of the hope someday they'll be on the "upline" end of it. They're buying into a "system" in hopes of netting those upline payments.
And, just like with the chain letter, such a system only works as long as there are a lot of "losers" for each winner produced.
Again, think of this as being similar to a "chain letter" which uses product purchases to "launder" the upline payments.
Also, and this is less important, but still worth noting: You're probably creating a new product. Again, I assume people are buying your product for it's own sake.
But Quixtar doesn't really create any new products. A long time ago, when they were Amway, their main thrust was to market "better" soaps. (Why this still isn't a net gain is descrbed in the post above.) But since then, they've noticed it works just as well -- if not better -- when you sell everyday things you can buy elsewhere.
Finally -- and this is just a restatement of other points -- but you are creating value: People are buying your product because they want it. In contrast, IBOs buy from Quixtar primarily because there's this system of upline payments going on, and their willing to play the odds in the hopes of moving from net "loser" (low-level IBO) to "winner" (high-level IBO).
So there are many, signficant differences between what you describe and Quixtar. And those differences are why I'm here, writing this.
And why you are, too.
A lot of what you say is probably true and it all generally makes sense. A lot of the uplines in this business are probably the way you make them out to be. But I am not, and never intend to become that way. Trust me, I know about greedy people. However, the way that you describe the Quixtar plan is not the way I intend my part of the business to go.
I have found a lot of very good items in the Quixtar site that you really can't get anywhere else. Such as their new XS Energy drink. You can't find anything like it out there. It is the healthiest energy drink that I have ever seen and unlike all the others it actually works for me, and many others that I have had try it. On top of that it actually tastes good as well.
Note that this is not a sales pitch, even though it did sound like it. I meant it as an example. With just the XS line you could market that and make all the money that they are describing to you at the plan. That is what my section of this business is going to be based upon. Not trying to get friends and family to join and then just profit off of them.
So the "Quixtar Plan" is going to create wealth for me and my friends, and do it morally. Sure it might cause my part to build slower than the rest, but in the end it will all turn out for the better. And you never really addressed the fact that all the books and functions and things are optional. But that is beside the point I am trying to make here.
Sure I will show people that the way to make a lot of money is to franchise, but I am also going to make a point of getting everyone that franchises with me to market the best products that are in the Quixtar supplier like madmen.
By the way, I only pull in about 14-15000 a year at my current job. So just the platinum level will make me more money than I am making now. I have lived in a low income envirement all my life and even had to give up going to college to help support my family. But that doesn't mean that I am going to break the morals that I DO have in order to make more money. That is why I only make the amount I just mentioned. I refused to go into management at Wal-Mart because you can only hold that job by virtually slave driving the workers.
So, yeah, I stayed a grunt at the place I dispise because I have bills to pay and I won't sacrafice my morals, or anymore of my time, for that crap company. So just keep an eye out for my end of this business, cause I plan on doing this the right way. Not the easy way. As a matter of fact there is one of the open-meetings tomorrow night that I am not going to because I have to go out and actually market one of the better products that I mentioned.
So now I am going to do the one thing that I never planned on doing at this particular sight. Please don't take this the wrong way.
[Tim: Information deleted. No advertising here.]
So go a head and bash me now for doing that. But the reason that it is there is for anyone that wants to help me show the punks that started Quixtar how to truly run a franchise, and do it the truly moral way. You say that it is morally and ethically wrong. So help me truly do something about it. We can't stop it, but we are the next generation. Let's start doing this thing right.
Nathan,
First, thanks for the switch in tactics. I'd rather have a frank, honest, nice discussion (or disagreement) with you. Things go so much faster and more pleasantly this way.
In terms of your solicitation to ask people to harm themselves and help profit you though this "system" ;-) -- No, I'm not offended in the slightest.
But since I have a strict "no advertising" policy (I just deleted about twenty ads here today alone, so it's nothing personal) I've deleted your IBO information. If someone wants to contact you about it, they can send you e-mail using the address you've posted.
Now, regarding your specific suggestions, I have answered you here. Comment there if you want to discuss that topic, or comment here if you feel you haven't yet conceded that Quixtar generates no wealth and will yet be able to produce a counterargument.
Thanks kindly!
It seems many have been brainwashed Into the Quixtar cult. I fell into it for about 2 weeks then I realized this parttime business was going to turn into a full time lifestyle of freaks and psyco's. Not to mentioned my upline showing up at my job in order to make sure I would be at a meeting, as well as the stalking phone calls urging me to set up a meeting IN MY HOME with other future victums(my friends and family) I don't think so. I went to one meeting in a hotel and that left a bad taste in my mouth. SHOW THE PLAN over and over again they chanted SHOW THE PLAN I am so glad that I caught on to this scam before getting burned. So I am out $150 bucks I could handle that. Thank you for confirming my suspicions.
Nathan, or any IBO out there, can I please give you a suggestion?
XS might be the greatest product on earth but there isn't much point retailing it. How much money you can make? A meager retail markup on it, IFF you can retail Q-items at retail price.
Shoot for the high PV items. Go for Dbl X or eSpring. Even CC or long distance is a much better idea. If you have Mortgage Intelligence down there in US, 500 PV!
Do it as a business. XS is the company of some diamond on executive. That’s why it is heavily promoted but think about YOUR business. Put money in YOUR pocket.
Unless you wanna ‘drink’ your PV. I dunno but I don’t like XS. It upsets the stomach, specially cranberry one. I almost like EVERY thing that tastes sweet but I hate it.
Marissa: Good luck and congratulations. Had I been as smart as you are, I might have saved 100s of hours and $9000 that I lost in one year.
You should ask for a refund. You may not need to talk to your sponsor to return the product kit. You can return it online via Quixtar website.
The intro kit, the one that your upline might have given you, return it as well. If they don't take it back, call Quixtar and complain. You can return business material according to BSMAA within 90 days.
Please let me know if you need any further assistance.
Quixtar is a member of the BBB and is a legitimate company. The products are alot better quality than what you would find at say wal-mart or etc. Yes, just like any other company out there, you have your jerks that ruin the reputation of the company but there are also alot of great people in Quixtar too. I know because my upline does care. He goes out of his way to make sure that in life, I am taken care of. If my car breaks down or if I need help with something, he will help me without hesitation!!!!!
Quixtar does require work but that is stated in the "PLAN". It does take time to build any business up and it takes work. If you want to question Quixtar, try other companies out there on the market (you can find lots of them online) and just see how good they are. They all promise the world but none if any results are actually made and if they are, the company is not reputable. I have tried other companies only to find out that they are not honest and are junk. Quixtar is the only company that I have been in for more that 1 year that has proven itself to me. The products are the best, the money is real, friends are for life, and if you ever have any problems, let them know and they WILL help you out as long as you don't have an attitude problem yourself....
Chuck,
Quixtar is full with GREAT ppl.
Many places where the big money is have most intolerable ppl. like stock market etc.
Having good ppl does not make a business profitable. Does it? Else we Canadians will be rich and America will be poorest: P
Other companies, mlm. Yes, many 'online' are plain BS.
Quixtar: check out quixtarblog.com, amquix.info.
How many ppl make money in Quixtar?
Millionaires in American: every 4-6%
Millionaires by Quixtar: .017% of total IBO force
Source: http://www.amquix.info
Where you better be?
If you need friends and can't find without Quixtar.....you got some serious issues buddy!
Quixtar is a member of the BBB and is a legitimate company
Chuck, my friend. I was there and said the same thing. Reality is, there are lawsuits against many LOS (lines of sponsorships). Do you know, CAMs have been terminated? in 2001, 6 diamond ships were terminated, 12 resigned as a protest. Quixtar DID NOT took them back!
There is investigation going on in UK and north Carolina. Amway paid $25 M fine to canada on tax frauds case. Canada refused to count amway as a business. As it's not, its just a way to lose money. They proved it on court.
Do you want an easy to get job who pays more than Quixtar? Try Pizza Dilevery.
Thank you for your articles, and yes, the incredibly aggressive feedback is always a feature of multi-level-marketing drones. I think that they know that it is all a house of cards, a "pyramid upside down" even, and that if more of the general public see through the schemes, they will all totally collapse and there will be no more "suckers" to replace all the dropouts down the line. Someone once told me that they would create "passive income streams" and I made the simple observation that a "passive income stream" in a marketing distribution network must mean that the end-users are paying more for nothing. Rod - Australia
I have really enjoyed the dialogue on this site. I have relatives who are tied up in the Quixtar 'plan'.
The disturbing part of this whole scheme is that they will never compete with the big retailers. We have been solicited to buy from Quixtar and said 'no'. For one reason....cost. The other is the false sense of security it builds in the person selling these products. People at the top get rich, not because of the products, but because of the 'pavement pounders' adding people to the pyramid.
The comments about geographical location of major retailers is a good one (i.e. McD's, BK, Wal-Mart, Target). Flooding the market with Quixtar reps works against you - learn from the companies actually making money! (see in parentheses above)
There is another hidden message here. Family can get hurt in several ways. Attending meetings alienates your children (assuming the heavy-duty followers get involved in this), expectations of family and friends to buy. I could go on and on, but those who have tried and failed or just people with common sense can also see. IBO's no need to comment, I am pretty sure I know your opinion (but will welcome the debate!)
I have never been involved and certainly never would (in Quixtar) because I have never heard one good argument that it makes solid business sense.
I will give one compliment.....Whoever is in charge of the brain-washing in Quixtar does a great job. I certainly would like to see this power used for power of positive rather than negative.
My understanding of a MLM is that it offers an opportunity for an individual to own their own business by becoming a distributor of a product. You may argue the "business owner" but consider: The individual has rights to distribute product, they have the right to advertise within guidelines, they have the right to generate revenue, they have the right to "hire" new distributors for the product, and they also incur expenses in doing so.
Let's say for my arguement's sake that you agree that it can be looked at as a legitimate self owned business in that one is a distributor of a product that incurs expenses and is in charge of the means to generate revenue within certain guidlines. I think that statement could apply to most businesses.
Now, the fact that the individual has the opportunity to generate revenue, the amount of revenue depends on his success. We all know the real money is in signing up new distributors and getting them to generate revenue or spend, but as long as each individual has equal rights and opportunities it shouldn't matter what portion of the revenue comes from product sales or distributor spending. The key point I'm trying to make is that each individual has the same opportunity to generate wealth for himself by how hard he works. If he has to work 60 hours a week for 40K a year, then that's his way of doing business. If the next guy works 70 hours a week for 30K a year, that's the way he has done his business. Each person has the freedom to continue or quit. If the upline is being forceful, then that is another issue. As you mentioned the upline is definitely making money by the lower levels spending. Almost sounds like a unionized labor force.
Finally, taking all of what I said about each individuals rights, obligations, and freedoms, there is still the issue of the whole idea being of no wealth to the economy. The wealth of the economy is also dependent on consumer spending. In order to spend, one must have money. In order to have money, one must generate revenue. It doesn't have to be the convenient store down the road or the Best Buy Company on the hill. It is everyone who is putting money in their pocket and taking it to the bank or trading it for goods. Same goes for those selling stuff on ebay.
I am not a MLM person. I work for a bank as a programmer. I just wanted to post my thoughts.
Good stuff brian, one of the most logical I've ever read in favour of MLM. Me programmer too and can sniff the logic :)
Ok here is my observation: MLM was a great idea in say 50s - 70s when catalogue shopping was endorsed by big corps as well:
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?p=23384&highlight=sears#23384
Then MLM could thrive as their product could compete. Now wal-mart etc. kills with volume. MLM distribution or ecommerce as such (aside software and porn) could not beat wal-mart, at least in the daily consumables. And it's a fact. So it's an uphill battle from the get go.
Here is how it goes wrong. To cover the lack of customer problem, buy for urself model emerges. That's is illegal!!! Gov say at least 50% sales to non-mlmers. And gov ain't stupid. Lazy to catch, yes, but not stupid. Biggest MLM Amway / Quixtar has 70% sales to non-IBO rule.
Buy (expensive than walmart) for yourself model could work only if the carrot is hung in front. Means need promise and motivation. Bam, big $$$, tools.
Try eading http://www.merchantsofdeception.com or http://formerdiamond.com
Bottom line: MLM is expired IMO in 70s. Right now money is either to start an MLM or sell ur product to them or sell motivations. So yes there is a money. Just don't become a rep.
Here is another take. I've done MLM. I know it aint easy if you want to make as much money as say a low paying job. You have to be:
- 24 hour on call support / motivation. My upline is!
- Accountant
- Driver
- Marketing (Show the plan)
- Sales (Clients)
- CEO / COO
A person who is moderately good at all above skills is quite likely to make money in MLM.
BUT
That person could make money in many other fields.
He sure won't be doing a low pay job. At least not long :) Unless president start burning another 20B dollar / week in some self imposed war.
So my conculusion is this:
MLM is for suckers and fools.
i was in quixtar, and it seemed funny, when an "upline" gave me any product to try from, he always charged me for it, and taught me to charge everyone also, ( just for a sample ) i didnt do it thought, i was also taught to give the plan everyday, and to contact 10 people everyday, and to listen to at a tape once a day, thats too much stuff to do, while i work and go to school. and my uplines never cared, they often put me down for not being able to go to the meetings, i was often told " well, thats your choice, if you dont want to do things the right way , they way they tell us to do it, you might as well quit" "also, that i was pushed in to buying over 300 points worth of merchandise, becuase thats what the DIAMONDS do, so i guess i had to do this too,i had to get a second job in the morning on my days off so i can make enought money to make 300 points
i quit now, i quit at a 15% , i almost lost friends becuase of this, and i went into debt, and the funny thing was, when i quit, i was even told by my upline, " well you know the product is good, keep buying the product and promoting the products" i will proboly sell all my tapes and books etc, to the uplines, they blindy follow things anyways, and might make all my money back about 600 bucks minimum. for anyways that wants to join quixtar or amways please dont listen to me or to any quixtar guy, think it over and follow your gut, becuase in the end, your going to pay your bills and take care of your famaly and your life, they wont take care of you at all.
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I just had someone try to sell me this BS. They told me it does not matter that I had a graduate business degree from a top university -- they told me that sometimes educated people were too educated to recognize such a good opportunity as Quixtar.
Anyway you may want to reference "Economics In One Lesson" -- a book every quixtar wanna-be should read first. Nothing to do with MLM or pyramids or Amway, but just good-old-fashioned economics for dummies through stories like the ones you tell in the post.
I just had someone try to sell me this BS. They told me it does not matter that I had a graduate business degree from a top university -- they told me that sometimes educated people were too educated to recognize such a good opportunity as Quixtar.
Anyway you may want to reference "Economics In One Lesson" -- a book every quixtar wanna-be should read first. Nothing to do with MLM or pyramids or Amway, but just good-old-fashioned economics for dummies through stories like the ones you tell in the post.
Help! You know, that pyramid diagram of how the business runs. You know, rich guy on top, 1 million slaves at the bottom. Just like Egypt, no? Well, it's not a pyramid....
It's more like a funnel, people are 'persuaded' to jump into this 'funnel' because, the IBO is like, "Hey, look down there? You see, money!!! Great, huh? I don't want to force you to do something you don't want to do, just remember - Down there holds the key to your happiness, success, finacial freedom, blah-this, blah-that, sometimes we have to take risks. Well, whatever you decide."
Hmm....Happiness, success, finacial freedom, wow! Just down there? I mean, I just have to take a risk, and leap forward, and this PLAN will bring me happiness, success, and financial freedom? AWESOME! What more is there to think about?
Off I go!
and ..well, you know, towards the bottom of the funnel, you begin to realize...there's nothing but cement, nothing to give way to your "dreams", and well -- it's a very gruesome ending.
What about those successful millionairs?
Well, heh, you see -- that man, all the way at the top of the funnel, the one laughing at you. Like dumping pennies into a penny bank.
I LOVE QUIXTAR...IT IS THE BEST. I NOW MAKE $2 EVERY 14HRS. BEFORE, I WAS A BUM ON THE STREET. NOW, I AM NOT. I HAVE $2. JOIN QUIXTAR. THANK YOU.
Has anyone noticed that in all of these Quixtar blogs all of the pro-Quixtar people write incredibly long posts about every 7 minutes defending themselves as if Quixtar is their mother. This is kind of weird and does resemble cult like activity. Why do all of these people care so much and get so offended? How come all of these tapes sound more like Christian testimonies of how much peoples' lives have changed rather than professional informative material?
Anonymous,
Those are thought-provoking observations...
Has anyone noticed that in all of these Quixtar blogs all of the pro-Quixtar people write incredibly long posts about every 7 minutes...
Actually, some of Quixtar's detractors (myself, certainly) also end up writing long posts. For example, it's easy to say something like: "Quixtar is just like Walmart." It's a bit harder to explain the differences.
Imran, though, is pretty good at keeping it terse.
Why do all of these people care so much and get so offended?
I've often wondered that myself: and that happens on other topics, too, not just Quixtar.
I'll be having an interchange with some guy who seems obsessed with some topic, is arguing and reasoning in circles, redefining words, etc. They'll be totally obsessed with it, yet completely uninterested in reconsidering anything should you be able to show new evidence.
It's like they're trying to justify themselves, or something. I sometimes wonder if that's what happens when a person knows, deep inside, that they're wrong -- so they try to "defeat" you by any means possible (including illogic) in order, really, to convince themselves.
How come all of these tapes sound more like Christian testimonies of how much peoples' lives have changed rather than professional informative material?
It's even weirder than that. I was talking with a girl I knew from church who was trying to get me into Quixtar, and she was decribing it in terms you'd usually use for the church itself. "It's like a family. It's a network of people working together for a common cause." (Etc.)
I'm thinking like, "Uh, as a Christian, isn't that kind of the role that church should be filling in your life?" Mind you, this was a fairly decent and lively church, too.
So perhaps Quixtar is a kind of substitute religion, where instead of God, you have the Diamonds, instead of charity work or evangelism, you have signing new IBOs up, instead of church services and fellowship afterwards, you have the weekly business meeting, and instead of tithing or service, the charitable impulse is redirected towards "giving" time and money to the greater good of the group.
I suppose you could say there's 'scripture' too, in the form of tapes, book of the month, and whatever gets passed down from on high.
I have a question which I hope can be answered by some IBO who has been in Quixtar(AND BY THAT I MEAN WHO HASN'T BEEN IN AMWAY). I want to know how |
Your an Idiot and you don't know what your talking about
Posted by: on September 3, 2004 06:16 PM