One thing that fascinates me about the products that Quixtar offers is that the "subjective" ones are always the most highly touted by IBOs. For instance, Nathan is a big fan of XS energy drink. I also hear IBOs go on and on about the Double X vitamins and the energy bars. How do you objectively compare the results of these products to other brands? Since it is entirely a matter of personal opinion, the sales pitch ends up being, "It makes me feel better! It tastes great! I lost 10 pounds! I have more energy!" I remember one wedding reception where a combination of cheap beer and bad scotch made me feel like I was a pretty good dancer and charming to the opposite sex, but that was probably just my own opinion. I guess my question to IBOs is two-fold: 1) Were you consuming similar healthy eats, drinks, and vitamins before you joined Quixtar or did you get on a health kick when you could get PV from it; and 2) Can't I get the same results by drinking a few glasses of water a day and throwing back some Flintstones?

Jeff: Good point!

The comment I usually hear about XS Energy Drink is that it "tastes great". (And who knows, that may mean it's rather high in carbs.) Let's face it: Vitamin B-6 is Vitamin B-6 is Vitamin B-6.

Actually I was on a health kick before I became an IBO. I was doing to vitamins and things, eating healthy, and all that oh so fun stuff. When I became an IBO I switched over to Double X to see what it was like. It worked much better than the other things that I was taking. I have been able to sleep a lot better and I have actually been getting rest when I sleep. I haven't done that in a very long time. So yeah, I support Double X because it IS a good product. And it IS worth the money. One of my friends the other day actually said something that I took to heart. "If you don't think that your product is worth selling, then don't sell it." He was actually talking to one of my other friends about his tele-marketing job, but it made sense. So I made a point of actually doing just that, if I find something in Quixtar that I wouldn't use, then I don't market it.

Now about the energy drink. Most IBO's haven't actually done a whole lot of research on the energy drnk that they preach about. I however did do a good bit of research. And the main vitamin in this particular drink is B-12 not B-6. They are definately not the same thing.

Vitamin B12 functions as a methyl donor and works with folic acid in the synthesis of DNA and red blood cells and is vitally important in maintaining the health of the insulation sheath (myelin sheath) that surrounds nerve cells.

That is straight from a medical web-site. It also goes on to tell that B-12 is very hard for the body to absorb, so people suffer from a deficiency. This can be cured by the intake of a high amount of B-12 everyday. In XS, there is 4900% of your daily B-12. So in effect you are giving your body so much that it actually absorbs what it is supposed to. And to clarify something else before I move on. The drinks are zero carbs.

This is truly where the energy comes from. As for the other healthy stuff I have tried from them, well, I have been missing meals every now and then because of my work schedule. So I tried their meal replacement bars so that I was sure that I was getting what I needed for my diet every day. I have tried several before this and they were all disgusting. These particular ones I liked. I couldn't tell the difference from a candy bar. So it even helped with my sweet tooth.

As for the argument that you can not do this business without harming people, well, at the beginning of the revolution I plan on starting you might not. I will agree with that point. But all those higher ups aren't going to be around forever. And if we get in and actually do it the right way, then I will be able to get up on one of those stages at one of the functions and be able to tell all the IBO's in front of me about the right way to do it.

I will be going over the 600-700PV marker this month, if not more. I haven't gotten anyone to join in under me. And I am just beginning. And every bit of it is from marketing the products and not the "Plan". Plus on top of that only about 75 of those points are going to be from me, because all I have bought are the nutrition products that I would have been using anyway. Those are also the products that I have marketed to get the other points.

So, no, I don't feel any remorse for selling these things to people that I know and even to people that I don't know. Because I believe in the quality of what I am selling and that they are truly good products. Sure it might have taken me almost a month to get to that point, but I did it the right way. Which means that I have no moral qualms about continuing to do so. And I am making profit off of it. Quite a bit more than my other business did in it's first month.

Yeah, the guy that sponsered me is going to get a cut of that money as well, but I am the one going to get the satisfaction from doing it the right way not him. In my eyes it is not the judgement of this world that matters, it is where you go afterwards that has any importance to me. Sorry if there are any aetheists in here, but if you are an aetheist then you wouldn't mind how you got money or power in this world because it wouldn't matter after you died.

And when I begin to teach people how to run this business in the right way, then it starts a wheel turning to get it on the path that it should be. Simple as that. Hard to do, but simple enough of a plan. Think about it. The future generations of this company are going to be listening to us and not the guys that came before. Because we will be there in front of them and the others will be six feet under and probably burning in the after-life.

I, however, will keep to my morals and do what I think is right regarding my part of the business. And anyone who goes into it with me will as well, because I refuse to be in business with anyone that won't uphold the same rules that guide my life. And I am hoping, the same rules that govern yours as well.

I, however, will keep to my morals and do what I think is right regarding my part of the business.

Just curious: What morals are those? "Doing what I think is right?" Even a common thief does that!

Specifically, are you willing to hurt many other people in order to get ahead?

If you're trying to be "moral", as you say, I don't see why you should have any trouble answering this simple question.

No I am not willing to hurt many other people just to get ahead.

So now that I answered that question, let me guess. You are going to start on the fact that this business isn't possible to build ethically, and that this business will hurt everyone that joins it. So go ahead, I await your response.

Sorry if I sound condecending, but I am running on about 2 hours of sleep right now. Girlfriend came over last night.

So now that I answered that question, let me guess. You are going to start on the fact that this business isn't possible to build ethically, and that this business will hurt everyone that joins it.

You were doing fine until you hit that final part where you say I contend it hurts "everyone". No, not true. I claim some make profit -- but that they do the expense of all the other IBOs.

I find it interested you called this a "fact".

Ah, so you trap me with my own words. Half asleep I used the wrong word to try and make a point. Oh, the cruelty of a non-functioning mind. LOL.

I read the statistics. Yeah, the average IBO doesn't make that much. But then again I was told that when I started in this business. Surprised? Yeah, I was sponsered by one of the ethical IBO's that exist. This business wasn't really made for someone that was content with being average. I went into this understanding that the average IBO only makes about $112/month.

I never planned on being an average IBO. I'm sure that everyone that enters this business expaects to be above average, but I also know that not everyone can make the cut. I personally don't want to be in business with an "Average" IBO. I also plan on spending the least amount possible on this business to make it grow for me and everyone that will join with me and my alternate way of running things.

I also spent half of last night reading through all the rules and regulations that Quixtar imposes. One of the interesting things that I found was the Buy-Back Rule. Basically it states that when an IBO decides to exit the business then his upline must buy back all the tapes and books if such IBO that is leaving requests. Hmmm...No money lost if you want out.

I am guessing that most IBO's and non-IBO's don't know about this rule, whatever qualification they are. Besides, I also found a way for my business to get credit for the books that I decide to get. One of the partner stores inside Quixtar is Barnes & Nobles. I found the books that were given to me on there. A long with a couple that one of the open meetings suggested to aquire and read.

The particular book I found I could get for about $3.46, plus S&H - $3.00, so it came out to be about $6.50. Average cost for a paperback book. Plus I will get credit for the purchase. I plan on using this to my advantage next time I talk to my upline.

And back on track with the topic.My upline has told everyone that entered into his business branch about the income of average IBO's. He got the same response from everyone that he signed up. "Who says I am going to be average?" So with them knowing about the income thy still signed up. That is why I believe that I will be able to run this business ethically. I have an ethical upline, I am going to be ethical about it, and everyone that signs up under me will be ethical if I can at all help it.

I don't want to be in business with someone that is content with average. And I beleive that this business was planned to be for those that were not average to make the most depending exactly how far they went beyond average. Sure I will agree that probably most IBO's aren't educated like they should be. I will fix that, or quit if I can't.

No matter how far something has gone into the darkness, there will always be a light to guide them back to the right path. No matter how small.

I am that light. And with everyone that joins me on that path, that light will become brighter.

I must thank you though. Everytime I visit this debate, a little more of what I find to be the true me surfaces. And I like what I see in my future, in this life and the next.

Nathan,

I never planned on being an average IBO. I'm sure that everyone that enters this business expaects to be above average, but I also know that not everyone can make the cut. I personally don't want to be in business with an "Average" IBO.

Hah! "The cut?" There is no cut. Quixtar takes all comers. It plays to their egos.

You're fooling yourself, buddy. First of all, this isn't about being "average". Aren't you paying attention? Only 1 in 200 IBOs will even break $15,000, paltry as that amount will seem after expenses and taxes.

This isn't about being "average" and you're fooling yourself by using that term: this is about being in the top %0.5 percent even to break even with a lousy McDonald's job.

I find it amusing, or perhaps sad, that you continue to evade the central question: How can you say you won't be helping yourself (you think) by hurting many more people?

You seem to think you can raise "the average" somehow. Don't be silly. If there's one winner and 200 losers in a race, and you make them all run faster, it doesn't change this fact. You're just fooling yourself when you say such things.

Nor does telling people they'll probably earn nearly nothing fix this. Hey, I'd be thrilled if you promised to tell everyone what the average IBO earned, just as you were told. Then at least you're only taking money from fools, and not fooling people, similar to the way gambling works.

But it doesn't make it 'ethical' yet, by your own admission:

I am not willing to hurt many people to get ahead.

It doesn't say "unknowingly", here does it?

Consider gambling: If people know their limits, play seldom, and plays for fun, it's just an expensive hobby, akin to golf.

But if a man looks to gambling frequently to earn a living, the fact that he knows, at some level, the odds are stacked against him doesn't suddenly stop the gambling from being harmful to him.

No more than the drug stops being harmful because the addict has been told about the long-term costs.

Again and again, you refuse to confront the central fact: This system works by creating a few "winners" only by creating many more losers.

You have yet to explain how you can reconcile this with your alleged statement of ethics.

One of the interesting things that I found was the Buy-Back Rule. Basically it states that when an IBO decides to exit the business then his upline must buy back all the tapes and books if such IBO that is leaving requests. Hmmm...No money lost if you want out.

Not quite. First, look at the huge number of Quixtar books and tapes for sale used on the Internet and tell me how well this is being enforced. Second, the buy-back is at 90% of value. Third, it can never compensate for years of lost time or having paid too much for product.

But hey, be sure to tell your downlines about this. I'm sure you'll be happy to do it for them when 199/200 of them decide, after a number of years, that $3/hr isn't cutting it.

Right?

Promise me you'll do this.

No matter how far something has gone into the darkness, there will always be a light to guide them back to the right path. No matter how small.

I am that light. And with everyone that joins me on that path, that light will become brighter.

Nathan, you are not a light, and Quixtar is not the road to salvation.

You can't even answer a simple question reconciling your own stated ethics with evidence you will hurt many to help yourself.

Nor did you ever produce even one argument about Quixtar generates wealth: Essentially admitted it was a process which continually degraded the world.

That's delusional, Nathan, not ethical. It means you put thinking well of yourself ahead of any serious concern for what you'll do to others.

Ach, but I fear I'm wasting my time on you.

Come back in two years and tell us how you didn't encourage hundred and hundreds to waste their time in order to attempt to fill your pockets. Assuming you even broke even.

You know something? I actually thought I was going to get a long with you. You wage a good debate, but you consistently overlook things that you should be picking up on. Like when I stated:

I will be going over the 600-700PV marker this month, if not more. I haven't gotten anyone to join in under me. And I am just beginning. And every bit of it is from marketing the products and not the "Plan". Plus on top of that only about 75 of those points are going to be from me, because all I have bought are the nutrition products that I would have been using anyway.

Not once did you ever even acknowledge that I stated this. How pitiful that you decided to switch the subject to another angle when a little bit of evidence was put right under your nose that this business can be done ethically, and make a profit off of it. And then you end up attacking me directly. Whatever happened to a civilized debate here? Don't your morals concerning money apply during a debate? If they do then you should really consider how exactly it is morally right to attack a person instead of the subject of a debate.

Nathan, you are not a light, and Quixtar is not the road to salvation.

When did I ever say that Quixtar was the road to salvation? Not once. Ah, look at that. Seems you tried to imply something that was not meant. Again. I was simply stating that no matter how far people in business stray from doing what is right, they can always be brought back to the right path.

No matter how far something has gone into the darkness, there will always be a light to guide them back to the right path. No matter how small.

When did I ever mention Quixtar in that sentence. I don't even see a "Q" in there, so you can't even rearrange the letters to spell Quixtar.

You seem to think you can raise "the average" somehow. Don't be silly. If there's one winner and 200 losers in a race, and you make them all run faster, it doesn't change this fact. You're just fooling yourself when you say such things.

Hmm, lets see. I will be doing about 700pv by the end of the month. If I find 6 people to do the same thing, marketing the product, then my franchise will be running at about 4900pv now say 4 of those six each teach one person to do the same thing and they get to that point. my franchise will be running at 7700pv. That is platinum qualification level. So the average jumps to 1/11. And now 4 of the people that joined with me are at 1400pv. They are doing very well too.

Guess what. The average just changed, simply because I found people that decided not to be AVERAGE IBO's. Sure it will take a little bit of work, but you seem to ignore the fact that once you get to the point you want to be then you can stop. And the money keeps comming in. Hmmm. Seems that over time the average of $3/hr starts to go up. Over-looked that didn't you.

Now that I have given you a little course in math, maybe you will start to see a few more of the RELEVANT points that I have made in my other posts. Things that you seem to have over-looked as well. I guess that you can't pick up on subtilties very well. Oh, well. Maybe one day you will learn young grasshopper. Then you won't debate like a bull charging through a china shop.

You know something? I actually thought I was going to get a long with you. You wage a good debate, but you consistently overlook things that you should be picking up on.

"Consistently"? Show me where you have complained before that I've "overlooked" this argument?

Indeed, looking at our correspondence, it's been the other way around: I'll have to write a point three, four, or even more times before you even sit down and think about it.

Apparently, this one's no exception:

"I will be going over the 600-700PV marker this month, if not more. I haven't gotten anyone to join in under me. And I am just beginning. And every bit of it is from marketing the products and not the "Plan". Plus on top of that only about 75 of those points are going to be from me, because all I have bought are the nutrition products that I would have been using anyway."

Not once did you ever even acknowledge that I stated this.

Please, Nathan, read this post, above, I have written for you, where I specificly address the likelihood you will be able to make $15k or so by only marketing nutrition products, and not doing "the plan".

You say I have "never acknowledged" this point? Good heavens, man, I wrote half this article about it. What more do you want?

And indeed, regarding what I've written there, it would appear to be you who are still not acknowleding my answers to you. I've never seen you acknowledge the points I've made up there even once.

And you sit here accusing me of "consistently" not answering you? Please!

When did I ever say that Quixtar was the road to salvation? Not once. Ah, look at that. Seems you tried to imply something that was not meant. Again... When did I ever mention Quixtar in that sentence. I don't even see a "Q" in there, so you can't even rearrange the letters to spell Quixtar.

Fine. Two can play at this game: Where did I say you said it? I've never said anything of the sort. Where do I say you said felt Quitar was salvation? I don't.

Will you now say you "inferred" that from the context? Great, then I "inferred" you were talking about Quixtar because that's the context.

Duh.

Don't pretend it's wrong for me to make inferences from your statements while doing it yourself from mine. That's blatant hypocrisy.

Now, regarding your first statement: Given that we're talking about selling Quixtar, it seems reasonable to me to interpret your statements as relating to that. If not, and you're changing the topic, you will need to be more clear. Forgive me if I wan't clear on exactly what you meant your "road" and "light" and "darkness" analogies to correspond to in real life.

But you are still not a light.

Regarding "raising the average..."

Hmm, lets see. I will be doing about 700pv by the end of the month. If I find 6 people to do the same thing, marketing the product, then my franchise will be running at about 4900pv now say 4 of those six each teach one person to do the same thing and they get to that point.

First, why don't we talk in terms of your actual income, eh? I spoke about average income, so you must refute any arguments about that by also discussing income received, not some theoretical future PV.

Second, in light of your previous statement that you are "not doing the plan" -- you clearly are. You are aiming for a geometrical replication of what you're doing. When I say "the plan", that's exactly what I mean.

... my franchise will be running at 7700pv. That is platinum qualification level. So the average jumps to 1/11. And now 4 of the people that joined with me are at 1400pv. They are doing very well too.

Platinum qualification isn't platinum. And you're not showing you're making better than $15k here.

And you're assuming a lot of people who consume 700PV. That's not very realistic, but we'll grant it for the sake of argument.

Next: I apologize, and should have been even more painfully explicitly clear on a point: Sometimes, in small groups, an average can be beat. For example, it is possible that a single IBO can earn above average.

But as numbers grow higher, that is increasingly unlikely.

The average to which I referred is a larger one, 1 in 200 -- showing me you hope something will be true at 1 or 11 participants does not refute what I contend will happen at that larger number. Nor did you cite a 1/11 statistic and show you were "beating" that average.

Nor did you even bother to actually calculate the average made by all IBOs in this scenario. You seem to be only looking at how much you (think you) will make, and not divide that out by those new downlines.

Even if you did do that math, you'd find out your IBOs are making a tiny bit above average. But do you know why? Because you're assuming they'll consume above the average amount of product.

But you forget that above-average consumption means above-average expenditures: by consuming more, there's more markup taken. Since you don't receive it all back -- some goes upline from you -- this just means you're losing money faster.

But it looks good if you only look at income, and ignore your expenses, like a gambler who thinks he's "up" because he just won $50, even though he lost $200 before he hit that one.

Finally, even if I ignored each of these points (and I do not), your own hypoethetical scenario still doesn't fulfill your own stated rule for ethics:

You claim 1/11 is doing great and 4/11 are doing "very well". So you made 6/11 do NOT "very well" in order to make this work out for you. So more people were hurt than helped, and looking at you specificly, you made 6 people do "not very well" in order for you to make a bit of cash.

You're still not getting this yet, are you?

The reason 1 in 200 makes that $15k is because the 200 are necessary to PAY that salary. You still haven't considered the chain letter concept I asked you to consider, have you?

Look: Imagine you've got a chain letter. You want to make $200. So you have a fanout of 4 each time ("mail this to four friends!"), and you tell the first two layers (16 + 4 = 20 people) to send you $10, cross off your name, and then repeat.

Quixtar works like that, except the "upline payment" comes through buying a marked-up product, not directly sending the cash upline.

Again: The first guy collects $40 total from 4 friends. That's 1/5 making $40. Then each of the 4 then gets $40, and the first guy gets another $160. So now we have (again) 1/5 making $40, and 1/21 making $200. Next layer: Now each of the 4 second-level people is like the first was last time. So the first game is played our four more times, once under each of the second 4, still resulting in the same odds for the active players. And so on.

If that was too hard or confusing, think of it this way:

The first guy MADE $200 by getting 20 to pay him $10. They're all now below the average, and him above. The only way to get them above that average is to get each of them to do the same trick twenty more times -- but now 400 are screwed, and 21 benefitted. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

No matter how often this is replicated, the odds always work out the same. Sure, you can pick one guy who DID get paid, just single him out, and point out he "beat" the odds. But only by pushing them onward and dowline, and raising the stakes for more people.

Don't you understand yet? There is no wealth created in this system. All you are doing is moving it around. And the richer you make one, the more screwed you make many others. And the more they will have to similarly screw in order to not suffer a loss, themselves. It's a geometric game of hot potato, where each pass of the potato makes it replicate 4 or 6 times.

The wealth at the top was made by taking it from the bottom. In order to have a certain amount of income, you'll have to be taking that from a certain number of people downline. No amount of "skill" or "picking the best people" or trying to "be above average" alters this. It's a simple mathematical fact.

Am I getting any of this through to you yet?

And worse, Quixtar is even crueler than this: If they'd just sent the money upline, they'd only be out the money. But this business of making them have endless meeting in order to sign up a few burns far more wealth than was sent upline.

Now that I have given you a little course in math, maybe you will start to see a few more of the RELEVANT points that I have made in my other posts. Things that you seem to have over-looked as well. I guess that you can't pick up on subtilties very well. Oh, well. Maybe one day you will learn young grasshopper. Then you won't debate like a bull charging through a china shop.

Nathan, there's more to being right than adopting such a tone. Look at the facts, man:

• You still haven't refuted my contention that Quixtar generates no wealth, nor do you seem to have contemplated, if that's true, what that means
• You have consistently avoided addressing the nature and impact of upline payments
• You still haven't answered my challege to show how you reconcile "not hurting others" with only 1/200 making $15k, while others lose out at $3/hr
• You attempted to refute my statements of what does happen, in dollars, at 1/200, long term, by using a hypothetical scenario based in PV looking at 1/11 at a specific point in time (and not averaging them, much less their expenditures in!)
• Even your own scenario, granting all assumptions, still violates your stated rule for ethics!
• You have never answered nor acknowledged my statements about the geometrical nature of this business, the "chain letter" analogy
• You say you are not doing the plan, while talking about trying to get a geometrical fan-out, which is exactly what I mean when I talk about "the plan"
• You're still avoiding my challege to promise to fulfill the "buyback" rule even if all your downlines quit, and
• Each point you have acknowledged I've had to repeat to you at least three times.

Sure, you can sound like you're "teaching me a lesson" all you want, but your scorecard is still marked with a huge zero.

Diligent (and probably bored!) readers will certainly be noticing this.

But I'm not doing this to make a fool of you in front of them: I'm wasting all my stupid type retyping the same stupid arguments over and over until you acknowledge them because I believe if you'd just look at them, they plainly show you:

(a) You are going to hurt yourself, or

(b) You are going to try to avoid hurting yourself by hurting many more others.

Actually, I'd bet on both (a) and (b), so I'm hoping you'll choose (c) instead, which is that you'll sit down and think about what a geometrical progression of this business means.

It means you will be violating your alleged ethics.

Even if you did do that math, you'd find out your IBOs are making a tiny bit above average. But do you know why? Because you're assuming they'll consume above the average amount of product.

Consuming the product? If that does not mean what you meant it to mean, then you might want to rethink your words. I was teaching them how to sell products to get the 700pv output. That amount is as simple as getting 7 bar's to buy some of their stuff through you, coffee shop's, and things like that. And yes you are allowed to do such things. Under certain restrictions.

Now using the percentage scale, note this is only my personel business, by doing 700pv I get 9% of what my business moved in volume. 700pv is about $1750 worth of product. My percentage is $157.50. From doing about 7 hours of work. So that is about $22.50/hr. That isn't bad pay. Also from what I can see that is far above average.

Now let's say that I don't do any more work to increase my business all year. That means that my annual salary for that year will be $1284 for 7 hours of work for that year. That is $183.43/hour that I am making. It is residual income. You can generate it just like renting out a house or apartments. You do the work once and you keep getting paid.

Now I said that I would teach 6 people how to do this, so the next year I get them to the same as me, 700pv, and I spent an 2 hours with each to teach them how to do it. They are making the salary stated above. Now because it is my franchise the original store gets credit for the other stores as well. So I am getting 4900pv, that is the 21% pay bracket. So I get 21% of the $1750 that is spent in my business, not theirs, which is $367.50/month. Just my business is bringing in $4410/year. Now they are at the 9% bracket, subtract that from my 21% and you get 12%.

So AFTER they get their 9% cut, I get 12% of what's left. So I am getting paid after they get their cut, which lowers mine. This is only fair. So after their cut I get $191.10 from each. Note that is after they get paid for the work THEY did. I you going to tell me that I am not entitled to that money for teaching them? Don't teachers in schools get paid for teaching?

Each percent for them brings in $17.50, each percent for me from them brings in $15.92. They are making more off of their work than I am making off of it.

This jumps my annual up to $18169.20/year. I worked 19 hours total in this business. That is $956.27/hour. Good deal huh? Now to keep everything nice and neat, they now go out and replicate what I did. Now they get my salary stated above, and the ones below them get their salary. Note I did not have to teach that next level.

Now I am at 30100PV, and they are at 4900PV. I am at the 25% bracket. That is as high as it goes. They are at 21%. I get 25% of MY volume, which is $437.50. This is assuming that I never increase my personal volume from 700pv. Now subtract 21% from 25%. It is 3%. They are getting $1514.10/month from their businesses (After you add in the percentages from the ones below them.) , I get 3% of what is left from their franchise. Which is $10934.50. This is what is left for me to take 3% from after everyone else gets paid. Note this is just one of the six.

$328.04 is all that I make from that person. So I am making $2405.71/month. Now the one who sponsered me, he doesn't get credit for my franchises volume anymore. He just gets a flat 4% from what my franchise does every month. Note This does not come out of my pocket or anyone else's that is in my franchise. Quixtar pays this to them, not my franchise.

So now you will say that the ones on the bottom are still losing. Try again. They are starting out exactly where I started. They are not losing, they are just starting up. Hell, mabe one of them will do more work than I did and reach my level faster than I did. Then he/she will be making the same that I am, or more. But it is fair. They did more work faster than I did, so they deserve to get paid for it.

There, now I just sat down and worked out the math for you. Please take note that not once did I use the use of tools or functions or many meetings to do this business. How is my franchise operating unethically this way? Someone who opens up a store in a McDonald's franchise isn't going to be making a lot of money right off the bat. Neither will anyone in this business. Everyone starts from scatch.

I haven't had time to lay out all the math for you before today, I do have a full-time job to go to after-all. Today was the exception because my town is flooded because of a recent storm, so I can't go anywhere today. LOL, I hate math. But anyway, hope this helps. And I stayed civilized and on track. This is one way to run the business. You don't even have to buy anything. You just have to be able to sell the products.

I am just looking for others to follow this path instead of doing it the "easy way". Am I wrong in running my business this way? I don't think so. Could be, but I believe that this is the way it is supposed to be done. I conceded that not everyone runs it this way, but then again you will have that in any business no matter what kind it is. You will always have people in business that are cold and unethical.

And the quote that I used about light and darkness, I remembered it from a book that I once read. You might recognize this one.

Evil only triumphs when good men do nothing

Well, I am trying to do something about it. E-mail me if you might actually think that this is the way to do this business. That way your blog doesn't suffer. I really don't expect to change any of your views, but can you blame a guy for trying?

Yeah, I know you can. That is besides the point...LOL.

I also spent half of last night reading through all the rules and regulations that Quixtar imposes. One of the interesting things that I found was the Buy-Back Rule. Basically it states that when an IBO decides to exit the business then his upline must buy back all the tapes and books if such IBO that is leaving requests. Hmmm...No money lost if you want out.

I am guessing that most IBO's and non-IBO's don't know about this rule, whatever qualification they are.

Well, those are some twisted facts. Complete fact is, you can return all books, tapes and function tickets within 90 days pf their purchase. So goes with the products. If you are in business for 5 years and then decided to quit, you only gonna get last 3 months tapes, books, seminars and product money. Majority quits by running away from their upline who are obviously trying to suck them back in. Also, do u have ANY idea how much tapes and lit packs are lost while working the plan? You are only gonna get money back on SOT tapes, NOT tapes you bought for prospecting etc. Read BSMAA again.

Money is lost either way if you want out or not. Fine print and details ALWAYS matter.

Nathan,

You don't mention the profit you can make by retailing products. It's true the "markon" is not a high percentage, but then, you don't have the overhead of a brick & mortar either. The best products/service/convenience of Quixtar are well worth the client cost. So keep that in mind when registering new customers.
Good job, Nathan. I too retail, as do the IBO's I have signed up. As a group, we share expense saving ideas and strive to ensure the bottom line is a pleasing color of black.
Sharon

Nathan,

Good responses!

Consuming the product? If that does not mean what you meant it to mean, then you might want to rethink your words. I was teaching them how to sell products to get the 700pv output. That amount is as simple as getting 7 bar's to buy some of their stuff through you, coffee shop's, and things like that. And yes you are allowed to do such things. Under certain restrictions.

That's definitely a lot cooler than relying exclusively upon "the plan" to do things. To the extent that Quixtar is a retailed product, I don't have as much* problem with it. The rate of return you describe is not bad at all, and most the actions you describe are reasonable retailing behavior.

[* If such behavior didn't reward a system which generally profited from the other kind of behavior, I'd have NO problem with it at all!]

Yet even now, it still seems you're playing with the accounting, hiding time you will need to spend or have spent. How will you locate six people? Will they appear on your doorstep? Count that time please. My sponsor took about 6-7 hours of time on me, and I don't believe they sign up each person asked.

Assuming (so optimistically!) 5 hours per person, with a 1/2 success rate, that's easily 60 more hours of work just involved in signing the 6 up.

Now look at how much time you've spent with your upline -- can you honestly say it was only "2 hours" as you predict? If not, then why would you think it'll take you two hours to train each downline?

Furthermore, you spent time reading the rules and regulations. That may be minor, and not ongoing, but it's certainly was real time. As was time you spent reasearching Quixtar when you first found out about it.

Now what about locating customers? How many did you have to find to move 700pv? Did they buy it upfront? Can you count on a repurchase next month? Did they move the product yet?

Perhaps you did all that, talked to you upline, located your customers, and ordered your product and delivered it (or did Quixtar deliver directly?) to your customers in seven hours? If, not then please count it.

(This seems to be a really hard habit for IBOs to break.)

I'm not saying this time is make or break. (But how can I know if I'm not seeing it counted?) I'm just pointing out you don't seem to consider all your costs.

Further, if you're doing great then why locate others anyway? I know, to increase your profits. Will you teach them to locate and train others, too? You seem to say so.

If you're going to find others, and teach them to find and sign up others, when why do you want me to pretend you're the "bottom"? If you vowed not to spread it geometrically, then you'd have a point. But you're not doing that.

This business of selling to bars and coffee shops is definitely a new twist for me -- I grant you that. (What precisely are the restrictions?) And it sounds like you think you're going to get a decent income -- is that all projected or real income you have already made?

I'll be interested to see how that works out further into practice, not theory.

But regardless, it still sounds like part of your plan for success involves teaching others to do it, and to teach others, and to teach others...

And thus, at some point, when all the available or interested bars and restaurants are already taken in a given area, saturation will be reached.

There are two ways this can be managed. One is by letting franchisees discover for themselves, the hard way, when saturation has occurred.

In your case, this would mean someone (more likely, many someones) downline from you will eventually sign up a lot of people who have to spend a lot of time fruitlessly trying places which aren't interested and have rejected the idea before. Or that said people will have to switch back to selling Quixtar based on self-consumption, not retailing.

On the other hand, when a franchise is reputable, it will have another mechasism for preventing this, such as dividing up territories and granting exclusive rights.

Which are you?

If you can all think of some way to stop speading it and marketing it into a given area before "saturation" is reached, then you're just doing a normal business and I have no objections. Show me this mechanism, and I'll admit you're doing it legitimately and you're created a more viable, ethical Quixtar franchising model.

Otherwise, it seems to me that you're eventually going to send a lot of people in a given area on a wild goose chase, and leave them with a lot of lost time.

Your scenario says, conveniently, "It's ethical if I quit now!" Great then quit spreading your model now and I'll agree it's ethical.

But otherwise, you're a bit like Kremer building the "levels" in his apartment (in Seinfeld) -- he wants to get credit being willing to do it, but he didn't actually do it. The burden for you to show that you're not going to end up with a lot of people losing out somewhere downstream. But I'm not seeing the mechanism.

(BTW, you never did name the two McDonald's which were alleged within 100 yards of each other.)

So, thanks for the improved level of detail. Good job there! But you're still not addressing the geometrical nature of this business, and it looks to me like you're fudging on your time expenses.

- Tim

The time consumption that you speak of is interesting. The people that I bring into this business are actually my close friends that I tend to spend most of my off time from work visiting. And as for the geometrical thing, well, they are all from different towns. All of which have several bars in them, so I will not be over-saturating my particular area and they won't be either. And yes, I am going to teach them about saturation of areas, something that Quixtar doesn't seem to talk about. This is so that I don't have people in my franchise going on wild goose chases.

And my direct upline is my father, so I visit with him anyway. So I don't really count any of that time as business time, for the simple reason that me and my friends always talk business ideas anyway. Kind of a hobby for us.

To answer your questions about the restrictions:
XS Energy drink isn't allowed to be sold by anyone that is not an IBO. But there is an exception to that. You are allowed to pour it into a different container and give it a generic name. Go to www.xsgear.com to find out a little more about it. On average a bar will go through about 13 cases of XS a month. So yes it will be repeat orders.

I am sorry about not going into more detail with this post, but I worked a rather long shift today. So I need to go to sleep now. BTW, the two McD's are in Washington, PA. It is south of Pittsburgh. Night.

Nathan,

Good night, hope you sleep fine.

Well, I could see how that kind of situation might cut down your time! But you're rather unusual in that regard, and becoming increasingly so, I suspect.

The answer you gave regarding saturation, is plenty sufficient for one generation. But it doesn't at all solve the problem long-term, since after two generations (42 participants!), nobody has any clue as to where anybody else is doing this. People from one branch will be competing with those from another branch not long after that.

Interesting innovation though.

If you want to prevent saturation in the long term, one approach might be to create a database of who is doing this where, perhaps by zip code. Then each participant could log where they were and avoid mined-out areas.

Though I'll admit: I'll be suprised if you can say that this, or something with an equivalent effect, will actually be done. Show that, and I'll admit you've got a good, productive, ethical franchising idea.

Take care regardless.

Actually I do have a plan of controlling saturation for the long run. Unfortunately, I will have to use one of Quixtar's tools. Communikate. Using this I can have everyone in my business exactly where everyone else is going. And seeing as I am going to be teaching those that join with me about saturation, then they will know where not to go.

And it would not be that hard to even produce a map showing where everyone in my business is. That can also me mass sent out through Communikate. And as for other branches of the Quixtar business line, well, they don't seem to spread out very much. So I don't believe that I will have a problem with them.

And maybe when people start seeing the way that this business should be run, then maybe they will get the hint and do it that way.

To tell the truth, when I first saw the "Plan" and they basically said, "get a lot of people to do this and get rich from them." I kind of got sick, until they looked at one person that wasn't out of college yet and couldn't afford to do the hundred points a month himself. And they told him that he could market the products and not have to spend anything. That is why I joined in. I knew I could market products easily enough. So that is why I do what I do.

And no I didn't get a good sleep, I have a cold from the wet weather and kept waking up to hack up a lung. But I do feel better this morning. Thank you.

This was a great read, long but worth it!!!

Nathan: Retailing Q items with all the restrictions they have? Seriously? There are other MLMS you know. Much better retail markup, no stupid restrictions and CHEAPER products.

Communikate is TWICE as expensive as some other products which do the same thing. Of course some one up there makes money of it. Just few years a lot of diamonds were preaching 8 steps. Along came a new way of making money and communikate is a must to build this business? Ha!

Building Q worldwide is a joke. I remember how hard it was for me to get an IBO in UK from Canada. I had to buy a kit there, other wise I'll get bonus only WHEN he go platinum.

eCosway is truly global. Signing up world wide is just like signing up next door. Much cheaper products. I'm not marketing it, just trying to tell you Q is NOT THE ONLY MLM out there. There are tons. Most of them WAY better than Q.

Nathan,

I've taken some time to think about your ideas, and in the end, I don't buy it. If you branch out where each IBO contacts six more, that gives you 256 IBOs after two interations, and 1552 after only three.

There is NO WAY, with 1552 or even 256 IBOs, (much less after that) that you can use a phone-messaging system to ensure people aren't being signed up in the same market areas.

Which means, quite frankly, that a lot of people will either get burned after spending a lot of time, or will revert to doing Quixtar the other way, which you yourself admit is unethical.

Therefore, your plans, if you execute them as you expect to, will result with many more people getting hurt.

And that means what you're doing is, frankly, unethical according to your own definition.

Sorry.

looking forward to researching this subject i have some family that has been messing with "Q"
and i am an IBO however im in it for research into
suspected links to "secret society" LOL !!! ive been pluged into one of the guys that has the motor coach and speaks all the time at their functions , i am getting to know him on a personal
leval and i think im heading to something very big
who knows i might get rich !!! or i might not, either way i like the xs its good stuff , but some of the products are way to high and plain crap

Hello Joshua, that was my line :-) Exact same line I use to shut all the negative. Of course no body was millionaire.

But the thing is, those Millionairs don't have vested interest in YOU. You are there customers. Tell them you want to start conventional business which have much better odds for making money, see how they react. Their only interest is in you doing Quixtar, thats it.

In other words, you are their clients purchasing books, tapes, products and seminars. They'll appreciate you doing that, like every other business person will do. They'll tell you to keep doing it, buy more and have more ppl buy it. I don't think they qualify for mentors.

Use ur brain buddy, a person who has financial interest in me is too apparent. Think about it.

All you morons, stop complaining and get started. Make money in this thing like I am. Show the plan to as many people and help them. Else sit and sulk. Im 25 and am rocking this thing. PPl have been complaning about this for years but few get succesful.
1/1000000 becomes a millionaire through jobs,tennis,football,vegas anything...ure odds are much higher here.

Success in anything requires commitment and thats about it here too.
Dont even talk about odds as odds make sense only in a similar sample set. you cant put unequal samples and apply odds. it makes no sense. Get real guys, this thing will never saturate and there is room for everyone. Question is how bad you want. My two cents. Criticize along while I build this thing with a passion!!!
Take care

Arun: The chances of being a millionaire by non-Quixtar means are something like 3% to 6% of the population. It's not really all that impressive.

On the other hand, from the stats I've heard (from Quixtar people themselves) that's at least 30 times more likely than becoming a millionaire via Quixtar.

Wow Arun, we're all morons huh? Who exactly qualifies as a moron in your book? To me a moron is someone that doesnt have a clue, about anything. Your post is so full of ignorant comments that I am speachless. If you only had a clue how you sound to those of us that arent programmed. Sorry to crap on your dreams, but you're just another sucker that got turned into an AMBOT. Quixtar will never saturate because there will always be people like you moving in and out of the biz, and when you leave the biz you will be too embarassed to admit you were part of the scam, ashamed to admit you were fooled by Amway. Thats why Amquix continues, too many people dont do anything when they figure out the scam. Good luck trying to screw over your friends and family, of course you dont really have friends and family anymore do you Arun, just potential downline. STP!!!

XS energy drink can be purchased in Costco and a few other retail stores (and cheap)!!!!!!!

I think that to be a legal company, you have to sell products to an end user. If you owned a Mcdonalds, you wouldn't be the only guy in there eating cheeseburgers so Mcdonalds would give you a bonus check. If you did, you would be a very fat guy with no customers. :) I guess if you franchised your "prosumer Mikey D's", you probally wouldn't be successfull since your business is driven by self consumption. If you ate a $1.00 cheeseburger and got back $.01 per cheeseburger you would go broke trying to get your bonus check. It would also look dumb to have a building where your the only guy in the building stuffing his face to get that bonus check :)

Is it ok to pay a membership fee to Sam's Club and not shop there? Is it ethical to refer all your friends to Sam's Club, get them to buy there and have your friend sell Sam's Club products at a retail price to their friends and family and make a profit off of them? What if you saved $1,000 a year shopping there year after year. Would it be ethical to tell your friends and family they could save $1,000 when in fact they only saved $10 every year because they saw no value buying in bulk? If Sam's let you get paid to refer and said you could possibley make enough to quit your job, would that be ethical?

Hapslappy,

Great questions!

You are right, there are, as far as I can see, no ethical problems with any of the things you mention. The only problem with your argument is that my criticism of Quixtar has nothing to do with any of the things you've just mentioned.

I don't have a problem with signing up but not buying things. I don't have a problem with getting a rebate (REI gives me one, for example), nor for referring others to a good business. Nor do I have a problem with getting a discount when you refer a friend to a business.

Those are all just fine!

The problem is that people think they will make money -- and lots of it -- by doing these things, more than by actually selling the products. Nobody thinks they're going to retire on the money they'll save by buying stuff from Sam's Club! Nobody thinks they're going to make a six or seven figure income -- as so many pro-Quixtar folks here imply -- by telling friends you liked Wal-Mart!

Buying products and saving money is fine. The problem becomes when an IBO becomes convinced they will make money from the "pyramidal" aspect Quixtar -- they will make more money by signing others up, not just (allegedly) save a few dollars by buying some product.

"You'll work to sign up six, who will work to sign up six more, who will each work to sign up six more..."

That's where Quixar becomes unethical.

Because (a) it doesn't pay well -- most people doing that actually lose quite a bit of money (even compared to shoping at their local store, much less compared to another job) and (b) that activity is fundamentally no different than a chain letter, except that you pay the guy ahead of you on the list every time you buy some products.

It's not a real business, Hapslappy. Real businesses make most their money money from their customers -- who are outside the organization -- not from creating more and more "franchisees", who must do the same, or be stuck with a lot of debt.

Hapslappy,

Would it be ethical if Sam's club had mentors who you trusted and they sold you an endless supply of books, tapes and seminar tickets to teach you how to shop at Sam's club?

It would appear that since ex-IBOs rarely ever continue to consume quixtar products, one could conclude that IBOs themselves only buy and tout quixtar products because they do so in the hope of "making it big". When they realize it's not happening, they stop buying.

It would appear that since ex-IBOs rarely ever continue to consume quixtar products...

Excellent point! I also noticed that (a) *I* couldn't get that worked up about the offerings, when evaluated on their own merits, and (b) it never seemed there were many Quixtar "consumers" -- only IBOs.

On the Qblog site, a new IBO was discussing with the critics. When he finally saw the price list, he decided to cut his losses. :D

Its impossible to become Diamond just by retailing oneself (assuming there are no downlines), leave alone becoming a millionaire. By showing the plan and signing up downlines under you, then it will create more losers who get suckered in the dream of making big. Its simply unethical to earn money at the expense of so many others. There are lot of hypothetical cases that can paint a very rosy picture for Quixtar. But they r not practical(since noone has ever become diamond in 43 yrs without creating downlines or just by retailing products).

Yah, the tools r optional etc etc, but in reality all uplines in quixtar r pushy about the tools. If earning money is the ultimate motive then there are many things(Softwares, hardwares, Cars, Medical equipment etc etc) to sell besides marked-up quixtar products that are not even good.

The latest funny from Quixtar is IBOs promoting a product called "perfect" water that they are claiming holds all kinds of special properties.

A case of 24 bottles will sell for about $48.

Amazing!

I just came across this blogpost and it is eye opening, but pretty accurate, IMO:

http://quixtarandamwayinformation.blogspot.com/2008/10/ibos-are-like-domestic-violence-victims.html

“I recently saw some documentary of a woman who was a victim of domestic violence and she expressed some thoughts that are parallel to the IBO mindset. Let me elaborate.

She said maybe things would be different if only she had acted differently. That perhaps she deserved her fate, that she was in fact responsible for the situation she was in. That if she hangs in there, he will change. Isolation from family and friends.

It's eerily similar to what if I had shown a few more plans, I didn't do enough to succeed in Quixtar. I didn't work hard enough, it's my fault. If I never quit, I will eventually make it. Isolation from people who are negative about quixtar.

These similarities, when you stop and really give thought to it, is how crafty or scary, the psychology behind what some quixtar leaders teach their downline. Your free to pass comments here, but the revelation I just received is sobering.”