A Business Opportunity BETTER Than Quixtar???
Quixtar
| October 14, 2004
| Tim
After thinking about this issue for a while, and re-reading some of the previous posts on Quixtar-related threads, I've decided that some of my critics are right.
I've been much too negative about Quixtar and other MLMs.
So I recently decided to be more positive about the whole idea. I'm turning over a new leaf, folks, embracing a different way of thinking.
As a result of this, today I'm going to formally endorse a new multi-level marketing opportunity, one which has some of the same characteristics of Quixtar, but which, and I'm deeply convinced of this, will be even more profitable for me than Quixtar would be.
I hope you'll strongly consider taking my advice on this matter, described below.
To all those have written here, opposing Quixtar on the grounds it hurts people, I will ask you to consider how short-sighted, and yes, perhaps even "negative" you have been, as I once was (oh how I hate to admit it, but it's true!), ignoring a good business opportunity with your persistent, pesky "ethical" arguments.
And for those who have written to persuade me I really should support businesses like Quixtar, I want to thank you for all the good arguments and behavioral examples you have given me, which I will put to use in this new venture.
Thanks all, and I look forward to hearing your enthusiastic responses and desires to join with me in this new economic enterprise.
- Tim
Timxar: A Business Opportunity for You!
My plan is simple but effective. Are you interested? Are you willing to take the steps needed for financial indepence? Are you a quitter, or are you one of that tiny percentage of the population who is smart enough to know a great opportunity when it's presented to you?
I want you to close your eyes. Envision great wealth. Visualize it in great detail. Jets. Tropical Islands. Overpriced SUVs. Now open them again and stare at the header of my blog. Associate that with your new vision of success. If this didn't work well enough, repeat it a few times.
Now ask yourself: Are you a winner? Why yes, yes you are!
If you think you have what it takes, then consider embracing the secret of my success: Just get out a checkbook, write "Random Observations" on the top check, and put a VERY LARGE sum in the box on the right, write it out below, sign your name, and send it right in to me. I promise you that someday, if I feel like it, I will definitely consider sending you back an ever larger amount.
I mean, what could be simpler than that? And consider the possible returns!
But no, some of you are too involved with your "negativity". If you would just put away your "negativity", stop looking for facts and checking to see if my claims are actually true or relevant, you would then realize what a great opportunity I'm giving you.
And don't let your friends and relatives, all of who aren't rich, tell you what do. Instead, please listen to me, a complete stranger, who definitely has your best interests at heart. They're not rich! What would they know about building a business system? (And no, why on earth should I show you my tax returns, and prove whether I'm rich, either?)
Listen to me: You can sit and home and mope for the rest of your life. You can work your stupid job until you push dasies up from the bottom. Or you can be positive, and do something about your life! Get out that checkbook and start writing that big check to me NOW.
Look around you: Do you see other people working? Their bosses will always make more than they will. They're not going to have a fraction of the wealth I will once you send me those checks. Do you want to be a loser, just like them? No? Then send me a check! Right now!
Now, you will meet people who will tell you this is a "get rich quick" scheme. Don't listen to them! Are they rich? They are negative losers! This is no "scheme"! This investment requires work, like every business does: You will have to do a lot of work in order to earn enough cash to send me a nice, big fat check. One which might make me grateful enough to send you back an even bigger one. (Once I get done spending it and see what's left, that is.)
And don't believe negative "friends" who warn you that you don't know anything about business. See -- they think you're incompetant! They don't believe in you. Like I do.
Also, since you don't probably know anything about business (it's scary -- believe me, you don't want to get into it without me -- trust me, you don't have what it takes), choose my system: It's an easy system that anyone can do. In fact, I just can't understand why everyone in the world isn't a millionaire, as they'd surely all be if they just all followed my instructions!
Look, this is a proven system, used by many people to get rich. (Like all those real-estate people on TV who make money from the "system" they sell you.) Trust me, if you do this, I'm absolute sure it will work. (For me!)
Another warning: You'll probably also meet people who say they are "experts" in my system! They have all kinds of charts and graphs... Ask them if they got rich by doing this system? They're not rich, are they? Remember what I told you about listening to people who aren't rich! (And oh, STOP asking me that!)
Oh, wait, they are rich? Then they're just trying to keep you from getting rich -- they have something but they don't want you to have it. Yeah, that's it.
So remember: No advice from business experts. And no advice from people who aren't business experts. Only listen to me.
And stay away from people who haven't tried my system: They haven't done it, so they don't know anything about it.
And there's one more negative type of person I need to warn you about: You may run into a lot of people who said they have tried my system; people who said they did sent me a check, but that I didn't pay them back even more.
But look at them! They're negative, complaining losers! I told them, just like I'm telling you now, that you can't expect to get a lot of this system if you don't put a lot into it. And they didn't show me nearly enough dedication by sending big enough checks. So now they blame others, and me, for their own personal failures! Because they can't be realistic about what negative losers they are.
No wonder I didn't want to send money back to a whining, complaining, snivelling coward like that. I did them a favor by helping them see who they are! You would have done the same! 'Cause you, unlike them, are a winner. And winners like you stay away from losers like that!
Don't let them spread their "negativity" to you!
Last, why look at any other business opportunities? Stop being so "negative" about mine by comparing it to other options! Since I'm sitting here now talking to you, my idea must earn more than a second job. Don't even think of checking it out!
You'll never make anything of yourself if you listen to losers who don't want what's best for you. They're just jealous because they know, deep in their hearts, that they are losers, and they want YOU to be a loser too. They don't want what's in your best interest.
Not like I do.
So get out that checkbook and start writing. Now!
;-)
Ok I am in, I'll edify you and get more suckers err ppl sign up if you give me a good percentage of the money you'd be making. I'll promote you BIG time and in return, u do same for me. Ppl under me means percentage going to u as well.
Capisce?
My husband and i are going into the Quixtar buisness and I am still nervous about it. What if we did make money what will we do
Good question, alissa. What if you did make money? I guess it's up to you. What would you do if you won the lottery?
I want you to do me a favor, alissa. Since you are just starting your quixtar business you still have the ability to think for yourself. I know that sounds harsh, but I mean absolutely no disrespect. Copy what I'm about to say and post it on your refrigerator next to whatever pictures you will most likely put up there to remind you of what your dreams and goals are.
MAKING MONEY MEANS YOU ARE RECEIVING MORE THAN YOU SPEND.
I want you to keep careful track of how much money you spend each month in your quixtar business. You will also want to start by establishing a mental hourly rate for what you think your time is worth. Keep track of your hours each month and calculate what you would make based on your mental hourly rate.
Have a look at that monthly bonus check. Did you make money? What will you do?
Good luck and God bless, Alissa.
Well Alissa there is money in Quixtar. For owners and ppl who speak at seminars and tapes, knowing 99.9 % of their audience will jsut lose money.
The realy money is to be a partner store of Quixtar. If somehow you can tap into that, Booyakahsa.
The real question is not what if YOU make money. What if your whole downline makes money. What if then. What if money going in for the whole group is higher than money being spent. What if indeed.
Can you think and write an example where whole group can make money? And whole LOS return a positive cash flow?
Does ppl become Rich in Casino, or Ponzi schemes? Oh yeah.
At a give time is it a zero sum game? as house always win on net?
Yup!
Alissa,
I think your question is awesome as well. Let me possibly give you a tip from someone that isn't quite so negative about quixtar as these other fellas. I've been involved with Quixtar since September 04 and the one idea I kept in mind when I started was that I was always going to make a profit each month. Say, I only made 10 dollars one month, I wasn't going to spend more than 10 dollars on business supplies the next month. Thats how I've been making a little extra money each month. I think some of these folks that are claiming to have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars are including items they bought for their personal use and not thinking that they would have had to bought say toothpaste somewhere else and spent the money there anyway. When I say business supplies I mean, books, CD's, catelogs, etc., not XS energy drink, toothpaste, clothes, or anything like that.
Secondly, one gentleman says that you should establish a mental hourly rate a keep track of your hours and then come up with some number based on what you think your time is worth. Sure do that, but one month maybe keep track of the hours you spent building your business and the next keep track of the time you spent watching TV. Sure, one will be more than the other but the point is that it is your time, do what you want with it, either watch TV with no chance of making more money, afterall, when is the last time you got paid to watch TV? Or take the time and use it to create opportunity to make money. Even if you fall you are out no more time than if you were to watch TV. Just thought I'd throw my hat into the ring to help provide a different view point.
Can we please cut this negative postive bulls**t? People are just expressing their opinions and putting them in categories like negative and positive is a first step to stop criticial thinking. Negative could also mean that person wants bad for you or dis every thing. It's not very direct but it's a hidden meaning. I know that how effective that could be.
Second: Yeah redirection. Simple isn't it? Ok I redirect my buying powers for a month and ....drum roll please, 40PV. I never used vitamins before, nor used artistary. So they are additional expenses. Plus I gotta do 300 PV to be core. No?
Ok the items in Quixtar are concentrated. They last MUCH longer than one month. Next month, again 300 PV. I'v been out since 2003 and STILL got some items left.
Items are NOT cheaper, although there are some good deals. Which business haven't? So you got some stuff cheap and you are just redirecting and not chasing any quota. Great.
Regarding comparing Quixtar with TV: Bravo. Thats the only comparison Quixtar wins. Or does it?
I watch TV, get relaxed for next day, lose $0.
I was losing money month after month in Quixtar. Who wins?
You entered in Quixtar to make money. If you are serious about making money, I'll tell you 20+ ways to do so which are better than Quixtar. They show in TV what a Japenses couple did while watching TV. They made matches!! Girls in my neighbor baby sit with the help of TV. Ppl workout watching TV. When I work from home, I do my job watching TV. My siblings study while watching TV. Writers and columnist are working when the watch CNN etc.
Oh boy! I thought I was the most stupid person God ever created. I feel much better after reading this blog. Thanks Tim! :)
Imran: We're all stupid somedays -- we each have our own "achilles heel". Yours just happened to have been Quixtar -- but look what a good thing you're making of that mistake! Perhaps you have dissuaded many more from repeating the error. That's the kind of positive action that improves the world.
If you knew the shame I've had for stupid things I have done also, you'd know you're not alone. I'm glad to know I've been forgiven.
Pro-Quixtar IBOs: Please understand that it's not "negative" to tell a person they're about to drive off a cliff if that is, indeed, true. If that's true, they are saving your life, and there's nothing "negative" at all about such a warning.
So, before you can call our criticism "negative", you must first prove it untrue. If it is untrue, then we are simply liars and it is your job to expose us. But if what we are saying is true, then it is not "negative" at all -- anyone who stops a bad thing is not being "negative", he is instead being positive.
Be careful out there.
Boy, you guys respond fast =). Sorry about the "negative" label but thats the view you are expressing. When you speak against something, even if it is true facts, its still speaking negatively towards the issue. For example, to say that a new born puppy is going to die is a negative statement. Its true, eventually that dog will die and its not a very positive outlook on life but, nonetheless, it is true. So therefore even true statements can be negative.
Imran, if you don't use vitamins don't buy them silly. No one is saying that you personally have to do 300PV alone. Thats the beauty of the business, if you get other people involved and maybe Joe Smith does use vitamins and they buy 50PV worth a month, and then Ellen Sue uses artistry she buys 50PV a month and you like the SA8 laundry detergent (i'm guessing that you probably do use laundry detergent) and you do 50PV a month with that, guess what thats 150 PV, in your group, you've persaonally done only 50 yourself, and your half way to 300. But I'm sure I didn't need to explain that to your seeing how your a former Quixtar IBO yourself.
Lets compare Quixtar to playing softball. In order to play softball you have to give up your time at least one night a week, pay to play in the league, pay for any equipment you might need, and the most you get out of it is possibly a little relaxation time with some friends. With Quixtar, certainly, you'll have to pay an annual fee, buy some tools and give up some of your time but the most you can get out of it is unthinkable. There is no telling what one can do with money, who knows, maybe you will make enough money to quite your job and play softball whenever you want.
Just my two cents worth from someone that might be "the most stupid person on the blog". (Not a very positive comment was it?)
quixtardude,
When you speak against something, even if it is true facts, its still speaking negatively towards the issue.
Yes, I agree, that it's reasonable to say someone "negative towards Quixtar." If all IBOs said this, instead just saying something was "negative" with no qualifiers (meaning negative in general), I wouldn't comment.
For example, to say that a new born puppy is going to die is a negative statement. Its true, eventually that dog will die and its not a very positive outlook on life but, nonetheless, it is true.
No, now you've got it wrong again: That's a negative statement not because the puppy is going to die, but because people think of puppies as a positive thing. Substitute "tumor" for "puppy" for example: "Your tumor is dead" would hardly be called a "negative" statement under normal circumstances.
Lets compare Quixtar to playing softball...
Oh, please! Will the absurd comparisons never end?
No, let's compare Quixtar to eating ice cream. Or sex. Or hernial surgery! Or the benzene molecule! Or used chewing gum! Or Bruce, the Dancing Lama! Sigh...
Quixtar is a form of work. People get into it to earn money. Nobody gets into it because they just think it's just so much fun to show "the plan" to everyone they've met since high school, or strangers they attempt to chat up at the local mall.
To evaluate a kind of work, you compare it to OTHER kinds of work. Not to something you do to stop working or relax such as softball, or eating ice cream.
(Why do I even need to explain this? What does Quixtar do to these people, that they utter such inanities??)
Now let's compare Quixtar to a minimum wage job. With a minimum wage job, you can often work as little as you want. And it doesn't encourage you to attempt to convert your every friend, neighbor, and relative into a "downline". Nor does the minimum wage job reformat your grey matter so that it thinks nothing unusual about speaking terms like "SA8" "XS" and "300PV" in front of total strangers, or think that the profitability of work opportunities can be judged by comparing them to sporting events! Nor does it require you to attend lots of extra meetings and share your life with your boss or encourage you to buy lots of "tools" with your hard-earned money.
And, if you work just 10 hours per week at the minimum wage job, in your spare time, you easily can make an amazing $200 or $240 per month! Which is about twice the average Quixtar IBO will make!
That's the beauty of busing tables or working at Burger King or Walmart! It's nearly twice as profitable as Quixtar, with no cult-like side effects.
Imran, if you don't use vitamins don't buy them silly. No one is saying that you personally have to do 300PV alone. Thats the beauty of the business, if you get other people involved and maybe Joe Smith does use vitamins and they buy 50PV worth a month, and then Ellen Sue uses artistry she buys 50PV a month and you like the SA8 laundry detergent (i'm guessing that you probably do use laundry detergent) and you do 50PV a month with that, guess what thats 150 PV, in your group, you've persaonally done only 50 yourself, and your half way to 300. But I'm sure I didn't need to explain that to your seeing how your a former Quixtar IBO yourself.
:) Buddy! I have been an IBO. Of course they say it in the begining. Than after a month or so, 300 PV is a core step. If you don't do it, upline will call you.
Selling is ..... even professional sales ppl might not be able to sell quixtar items given the
1) Prices
2) Lack of brand recognition
3) Sales restrictions
I might sell via internet or regular shops if I am allowed to. Although prices are CRAZY.
Only option left, buy 300 PV and find other ppl who buy!
just thought I would throw this into the whole forum. I was googling for things better than Quixtar. And everything I've found has just been a bunch of people sitting around talking about how much money they lost so on and so on. Or someone trying to make sense of why it didn't work and comparing figure and the like. They are all very good arguments but they are all also very constapated in their thinking. Instead I think these individuals should look more at themselves. Are they the kind of people that could actually make it work. Dont get me wrong some of the big wigs make it sound like anyone can do it but that just is not reality. My point is this.. Just because you couldn't make it work doesn't mean that it is bad idea it just means that you lacked the skills required to do so. thats all. Im a 20 year old personal trainer, no one special, but my fiance and I have been involved for 2 months. We went 1000 pv our first month. This month we are heading to 3500 and are only 150 points away and its the 16th of the month. We will be Platinum in 2 more months. So all the people in here going on and on about how it doens't work and the only people who make money are big wigs in the company are full of it. They are just bitter because they couldn't make it work and therefor because ther are the end all be all of the whole thing no one else will either. But that is just my opinion. I guess everyone else is entitled to there's.
Well Josh, first it's not a business, it's a scam. Biggest and longest in the history of north America.
http://www.merchantsofdeception.com
and it fascinates me! It's like watching a movie about mafia etc. :)
Second: You didn't read a lot did you? There have been founders of anway posting here. Heard Walter Bass? He helped Rich and Jay to incorporate amway. His grand daughter 'Deb' is posting in some most popular mlm forums. Dexter Yager is their downline. They made half a million / year back in seventies by selling products only!!!!
I'm 27, a software developer and do some consulting. I'm, by the grace of Allah quite successful in both. If I had read internet I might have saved time / money as I see only very few making money, majority losing. Unless u r willing to work 30-40 hours a week for the best years in ur life for a very slim chances to make diamond, go a head.
BTW diamond average 90k/ year and have to work 8-10 hours a day to keep their business growing. Ask bo short, a former diamond.
Again, I'm not stoping you. I won't. I encourage you to do some reading, don't believe the hype, ask questions and think like a business man. That's all.
"I have been an IBO. Of course they say it in the begining. Than after a month or so, 300 PV is a core step. If you don't do it, upline will call you."
You gotta stand up for yourself. I know it isn't easy because I had to do it. They kept pushing their "proven system" on me, and wanting me to spend 100 pv per month. Just keep saying no and they might finally go away. My sponsor eventually did. I listened to a few tapes he gave me because I thought the tapes were for training, but all I heard was how great the business is and how much better their lives are. It was vomit to my ears. Do people actually like to listen to them?
I couldn't figure out why my sponsor would sit through the same prospecting meeting everytime he wanted to show the plan to someone. So instead of following his advice, I decided to try and make things more efficient. I created a free online training/prospecting website, which was authorized by Quixtar even though it tells people to read Anti-Quixtar websites and not to join motivational organizations. I was very suprised that they allowed me to say those things. It shows that you are not limited to your sponsor's way of doing things. You can be an INDEPENDENT Business Owner.
Ben, I applaud u for thinking like a business man.
However....you have signed up for BSMAA right? if your upline steal ur group selling them tools etc. how can u stop them?
It has happened to ppl before. Many ppl. Honestly after signing up BSMAA, u have given up ur very basic right. Scary.
In case of conflict, Quixtar will lean towards ur upline / tool ppl. Heard Luster vs Gooch vs Anderson case?
Imran,
BSMAA- Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement, correct? I never bought tools from my upline, so I never needed to file a BSMAA. Even if my upline "goes after" my group, I will make sure they know not to join.
Has anyone listened to the Directly Speaking tapes by Doug DeVoss? I found them online so I decided to hear what he had to say. I think they show how much Quixtar doesn't want the AMO's around. It's easy to think that Quixtar benefits from the AMOs, but do they really? Every bad story you hear about Quixtar involves a scary upline in an AMO. I must say though, I find the stories hilarious. Can you believe what some of these IBOs are saying to people? I'll check back in later. Thanks again for your reply.
I don't know about what everyone else is saying. I've heard about and read about the guys who decided they didn't like the way the training materials were distributed, and why. Honestly I'm not real particular... I figure if you made the money you know how to do it, and if you want to make a tape letting me know how you did it then I don't mind paying a little to get it. They had to do something to be put on stage like that. I wouldn't mind knowing what it was. I think Dexter Yager was one of those guys. Another thing is I don't understand why all these people have such a hard time making the business work. And it is a business, you get paid for driving profit producing traffic to a website, and you get an override. Sounds like all the other commission jobs I've had in the past. But either way I've only been working it ( showing palns) on Saturdays, the rest of the time I just say hi and would you like to save a little money and time. My fiance and I have done pretty good so far. Even thinking about investing a little more time in it. I don't know I guess I just dont get why people give it such a bad rap. I googled "I hate Wal Mart" and I found more websites than quixtar had. So I guess everything has its nay sayers ( think thats how you spell it) and every company has people it didn't work out for. But all I see is people making excuses. You know what I mean. I'm nobody special and we made about 3000 in retail and bonus pay. And we haven't even started trying yet. I just did what I know works from all the other commission jobs I've had. Contacted and showed the plan to four of my sharper friends and off we were making some extra spending cash. But that's just me.
Imran,
BSMAA- Business Support Materials Arbitration Agreement, correct? I never bought tools from my upline, so I never needed to file a BSMAA. Even if my upline "goes after" my group, I will make sure they know not to join.
Uh Josh. you signed up for Quixtar right? You have signed up for BSMAA. Remember a screen with some default notice. etc? And apparently you had no idea that you are giving up your right to go to court in case of some future dispute.
In other word, no one can become Quixtar IBO without signing BSMAA.
Has anyone listened to the Directly Speaking tapes by Doug DeVoss? I found them online so I decided to hear what he had to say.
It was Rich DeVos, not Doug. Or Doug released some tapes too?
http://www.amquix.info/amway_directly_speaking.html">http://www.amquix.info/amway_directly_speaking.html
I think they show how much Quixtar doesn't want the AMO's around.
It was 1983, after dateline type expose 60 minutes. What they do to these problems Rich Devos was saying? Nothing!! Read the above link. Amway / Quixtar was saturated in seventies and AMOs is keeping it alive.
http://mlmlaw.blogspot.com/2004/09/zero-population-growth.html
It's easy to think that Quixtar benefits from the AMOs, but do they really?
Guess. Number of IBOs in AMOs vs non AMOs. no match. I don't have a number, but I'd venture to say very are non-AMOs.
AMO = self buying IBOs. AMOs are selling IBOs tools. Why would Quixtar keep them if they're not required? Quixtar can not make so much sales wothout AMOs. I'll post some more later on it.
It was Ben, to upper comment, not Josh. It was late :) Let me know Ben if you find out you have signed up BSMAA :)
And answer if the last question: Just by making you sign up BSMAA to become an IBO, Quixtar stands 100% behind AMOs. No? BSMAA = Business Support Material Arbitration Material.
To Josh:
I don't know I guess I just dont get why people give it such a bad rap. I googled "I hate Wal Mart" and I found more websites than quixtar had. So I guess everything has its nay sayers ( think thats how you spell it) and every company has people it didn't work out for.
I never worked for Wal-mart, but what wal-mart does is put many mom-and-dad store owners out of the business, exports manufacturing plants to cheap labour countries, thus killing US jobs. Also, importing cheaper products from outside, not too good for economy. So I can see y ppl don't like it.
ok here is the negative info experiment. NO negative info on Avon!!!
Critical website Myth
Beside, negativity doesn't really matter if it's BS. I won't stop shopping at wal-mart or Microsoft. They work for me no matter how evil they are :) But many Quixtar IBOs fight coz they don't want their prospects to see that info. Many of that info, (if not all:) is right on money. I won't be in Quixtar if I knew tool scam, BSMAA and in general, why buy-for-yourself is bad. I think that's the point.
I dunno Imran, I guess I just don't get it. I don't see how it is a bad thing. Granted I'm sure some people have missused the opportunity. And about the statement about wal mart I see your point but either way it goes they are one of if not the largest most profitable companies in America so they are doing they're thing. Can't be mad at them for that. But its the same with quixtar some people get pissed off because they get burnt or dont have the sense not to overextend themselves or dont think its fair that someone is making money off the information they care to share with the rest of us. The deal is you get paid for driving profit producing traffic to a site and get the override. Makes sense to me and if you got the sense God gave a t-post you got a fair shot at the same thing. You just got to be quick on your feet. I dunno I guess I just dont see like everyone else does.
oh and p.s. just searched it
150,000 hate sites on Avon
150,000 hate sites on Avon
interesting. Wanna name some of those? Quixtar sites mostly involve around tool issue while the problem is MLM Model. Avon sites migt eloborate that better. Why don't I find much? May be I'm more used to finding anti-Quixtar sites which are so easy to find :)
Imran, just out of curiosity, how much time do you spend negating other peoples views in this forum? Seems to me like you spend more time trying to tell people why they are wrong than you spent building your business...
Yup, instead of watching TV or XBox or surfing, this is my pass time :) An average American spend how many hours / week in front of TV? Beside my typing speed is fast and I happen to know a little about Quixtar.
I heard similar stuff from my sponsor. At least on some level. When I left Quixtar they keep bugging me to join again. It was not an offer that "Don't do it if you don't like it" no way. But when I start http://quixtarsucks.blogspot.com THEN they say, "Don't do it if you don't like it, y u r wasting ur time" ... Hmm, why didn't they say that before?
I am doing quite well in whatever I do (web-based app design, development & support). Thank you.
I'm not a forum veteran. I'm mostly presenting figures and links. Let me know if you think they're wrong, just please provide your links. If those facts and figures negate some one views then ......
I'm still waiting for anti-avon sites. I'm not advocating Avon but I expect other ppl to back up their claims as well.
And why I tell ppl they're wrong? I don't tell ppl "They" are wrong, I tell them what's wrong with Quixtar / MLM. Had I read these sites before, I'd saved a lot of time and $$$.
I really don't make any excuses for whatever I do. It is legal, within this blog rule and owner is fine with me. (May be :) but my comments are never deleted). I'm expressing my opinions, first amendment :) So did u. Fine!
I heard Quixtar GM Ken McDonalds retired. Was he asked to retire because Quixtar is going downhill? No sales record this march? This march being the first march? Just curious.
It is legal, within this blog rule and owner is fine with me.
More than, actually. Your extensive experience in this area allows you to make some rather persuasive arguments. The blog owner is in fact appreciative of your input, and honored you would share it.
For example, I never bother to argue Quixtar isn't legal. But you, Imran, can cite some very specific ways in which Quixtar bends the law, if not breaks it outright -- or at least encourages each IBO to do so.
Of course, I also welcome commentary from active IBOs (that's why we have comments here), but, as a community, their input has largely been rather disappointing. We've gotten a few who have posted cogent arguments, but mostly it's boiled down to:
(a) "This is legal!"
(b) "You're a loser!"
(c) "Everyone who isn't a Quixtar IBO is a loser!"
(d) "How dare you comment negatively on this!"
(e) "This is the most wonderful business opportunity which ever occurred in this history of space, time, and dimension!"
(f) "Quixtar has... uh... partners... and stuff!"
(g) "This is just like McDonald's!"
(h) "Your workplace is a pyramid!" (Yes, and???)
(i) "You're a loser!"
One web page could answer it all (and many have), if the answers weren't already obvious. None of the above, even if true, would show whether the participant is likely to make money -- which ought to be a prime concern.
The sad thing is, we're not doing this to make money or impress anyone. The whole goal is to help people, including even the IBOs who attack us endlessly.
It would be nice if they'd think seriously about what they're doing, but for some, it seems they're content to mindlessly follow along or "defend" the very system which is sucking in their efforts and entire personality, in order to make just a very few people at the top very, very wealthy.
But people are often complicit in their own destruction, if not that of others.
Best to you all, our enemies included.
Regarding Avon "hate sites"...
I typed "hate avon" into Google, and got -- yep, more than 170,000 links. Of course, almost none of them, apparently, are really about hating Avon.
For example, the first and most relevant there were about "Hate Crimes" in "Avon and Sommerset" -- an area in England. The fourth was about a "love-hate" relationship with Avon products -- from a person who is actively and enthusiastically selling the stuff.
The fifth was about Tel Aviv, etc.
Apparently didn't even bother to look at the first link before he posted it.
Just wanted to say that i was an IBO once, and I had great success in achieving pins (went over 4000 in less than a 8 months), but please those who are looking to do something like this or othere MLMs watch-out! It slowly and unknowingly began to take away everything that I loved in my life... mostly because i was told that i should love this more... youknow if i was a good IBO. I was just a girl in a new city, newly married, and with not too many friends... they promised me their friendship for life, but when my husband and i decided that we just couldn't do it anymore, we were "the forgotten" it is sad... because uplines, downlines, crosslines act as if they do not know you, and if they do talk, then it is about "the business" .... sure we still do PV, mostly downlines, (but is do like the sa8 and glister) ... just watch your money! watch what you buy, and why! are you buying things you don't need just to hit the next pin level?
The advice from our uplines was self-serving and maybe it is not the case with you... but after enough tapes you will start to think that it is your duty to help them... sow the seeds... and if you are and exemplary IBO then someone will be that for your business... FALSE!
PLease, do not let the sweet talk, and sweet dreams that they talk about fool you! Nothing beat a "real" job! I love what i do and i actually contribute to society in a meaningfull way....
concerned for you,
ex-IBO
I'm not entirely sure where to start. I guess the first thing that strikes me is how nasty and mean the anti-Quixtar people are on this site. I am not sure what you have to gain from this. There are rumors that some of these negative people work for companies like Proctor and Gamble, at least that would explain your motives.
Now I have been in and out of this business from the days of Amway until now. My parents are my upline and it has not always been smooth sailing. It is an interesting dynamic when you feel pressure from your own father. However, even when I have not been active, I have not been negative. Even when I told my Dad I was going to build this, and didnt (which is what I suspect happened to a lot of people who felt "pressured", you shouldnt tell people you are going to do one thing and then be surprised when they expect that out of you) I didnt turn negative. These people (I am speaking of the WWDB group only) are only interested in personal development of you and your business. Sure, they want to be profitable, but they make no money if you dont make money. That is why this can work so well. But even if you never make a single dollar in this, even if you lose money, it is still worth it if you plug in to the system. My parents had a pretty bad marriage before this business, very little affection for each other. 7 years later, I just brought my girlfriend to meet them last month, and she could not get over how connected they were, holding each other at the movies and so on. (Our movie tickets were paid for by their money from Quixtar, but thats another story) They are Platinums in the biz and growing, but money is so not important when compared to the personal development that they have gone through, especially my Dad.
Just my 2 cents...
I guess the first thing that strikes me is how nasty and mean the anti-Quixtar people are on this site.
Where? Quote them please.
I am not sure what you have to gain from this. There are rumors that some of these negative people work for companies like Proctor and Gamble, at least that would explain your motives.
Not again! An IBO spreading rumors about P &G. Haven't you guys learned from whole P&G = Satanism and your leaders have apologized for doing so? Forgot Ken McDonald's VM to not do it again? Seriously, you should be careful about saying anything regarding P&G at least.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2004/10/ibo_help_stop_rumor.php
And your motives are also quite loud and clear. You are making a pathetic attempt to put criticism as "Rumors by P & G" employees. Answer the criticism if you can. Answer me, I don't work, get paid by P & G and can sign an affidavit for it.
Let me try to make a statement like you. May that won’t be considered as nasty and mean: I can’t believe how stupid, fraudulent and ignorant Quixtar ppl are on this site.
Brad,
I'm not entirely sure where to start. I guess the first thing that strikes me is how nasty and mean the anti-Quixtar people are on this site.
Mean and nasty? Good heavens man: Jason writes "God bless you", I write "Best to you all, our enemies included", and you call me "mean and nasty" -- without providing even a single bit of evidence for your defamatory accusations?
Gosh, if I didn't know better, I might think it was, in fact, you who were lying, and calling people names.
(Meanwhile, I'm constantly deleting posts from IBOs who call people idiots and "losers"!)
There are rumors that some of these negative people work for companies like Proctor and Gamble, at least that would explain your motives.
Here's another theory: I'm have nearly nothing to do with P&G (aside from buying some detergent now and then), and only a tiny percentage of my posts are about Quixtar.
But even that's apparently too much for the average IBO to cope with, so they must go looking for a conspiracy theory, and spread unfounded rumors and impugn my integrity by implying I'm lying to my audience, and that my opinions are merely the result of payoffs -- and thus that I'm the kind of person who would deceive people for money.
So we can see the kinds of ethics being displayed here.
(If I were being paid to write about Quixtar, you'd think I'd blog about a lot more than just about a dozen posts. That P&G rumor, started by Amway, died in the 1990s -- but I see Amway tactics never change.)
Here's another potential motive to consider: Perhaps I'm just a blogger who thinks high-level Quixtar IBOs make money by taking it from many, many low-level IBOs, and want to save people from that trap. And perhaps I get angry at seeing the lies endlessly being spread by IBOs like this guy.
Nah. None of that could never happen.
.... Even when I told my Dad I was going to build this, and didnt (which is what I suspect happened to a lot of people who felt "pressured", you shouldnt tell people you are going to do one thing and then be surprised when they expect that out of you) I didnt turn negative.
"Build this"? Oh please. IBOs make an average of $115/month, and the alleged residual actually drops off like crazy, since Quixtar has huge turnover.
It's kind of creepy when you hear each IBO repeating the exact same strange phrases ("build this") the previous ones used.
However, even when I have not been active, I have not been negative.
"Negative" is a noun in Quixtar. A typical behavior of cults is to use a keyword for all the "bad" people. In Quixtar, anyone who expresses any doubts or asks probing questions is branded "negative", even if they're trying to help people or themselves.
I'm "negative" towards Quixtar in the same way I'm "negative" towards lung cancer -- I want people to be happy and successful, so, of course, I don't want them being hurt.
These people (I am speaking of the WWDB group only) are only interested in personal development of you and your business. Sure, they want to be profitable, but they make no money if you dont make money.
That's blatantly untrue. At $115/month IBOs will lose out -- compared to the money a similar minimum wage job could have earned. Yet the top IBOs make plenty of money -- and so does Quixtar and the QMOs -- as long as the people below them consume product and tools -- whether those lower-level IBOs make money or not.
Yet another deception!
But even if you never make a single dollar in this, even if you lose money, it is still worth it if you plug in to the system. My parents had a pretty bad marriage before this business, very little affection for each other. 7 years later, I just brought my girlfriend to meet them last month, and she could not get over how connected they were, holding each other at the movies and so on...
Yeah, yeah -- another unverifiable testimonial: "Join Quixtar because it repairs broken marriages! Trust me that I'm not just making this up!"
Funny, a lot of other people seem to think Quixtar destroys marriages -- see the warnings on that page about how they try to suck people in with the "this will save your marriage!" angle.
They are Platinums in the biz and growing, but money is so not important when compared to the personal development that they have gone through, especially my Dad.
Quixtar: Is it a business, or a personal-development cult? When someone loses money, it's all about the "personal development". When someone's family breaks up, it's just because they weren't sufficiently "committed" to the "business."
Oh, and don't forget to call them "losers", too. It's amazing how many "losers" IBOs will say their organization recruits and then fails. Oh wait, that's right, "the system" never fails. It's only 99.6% of the IBOs who are doing wrong, and will ultimately blame themselves.
Sorry, I was being "negative" and looking out for people, including IBOs, and not protecting "the system". Bow to the system!
First off, the Proctor and Gamble comment was not meant to be taken seriously. I was poking fun at why you have such a blatant anger towards people and yes calling people stupid, fradulent and ignorant and claiming that people are in a scam or cult is mean and nasty. Im sorry that you dont feel that way.
If it makes you feel better, I do not know that P&G have anything to do with any of these sites. I was not claiming otherwise. If it was taken the wrong way, I apologize for misleading anyone. It was meant as humor. End of subject.
Second, if you truly want to see mean and nasty, then look at the comments about my parents marriage. How dare you speculate that this is another unverifiable testimony. You can ignorantly argue that this does not work, I dont care, but you should be ashamed for painting my experience as bs. I am so mad and hurt that you could be this inhumane.
I do not consider people who dont build this business (or please let me know what way I should say this so I dont sound "brainwashed") losers. And we can argue about how to measure how much money people make on average. I do agree that it is not much. That is because most people do not have the mentallity of a business owner and need someone to tell them what to do. This just isnt going to happen in Quixtar. THEY ARE NOT LOSERS!!!! They just should not have taken on this business if they were not going to work it right. (Oh no, another brainwashed phrase just came out of my keyboard. Institutionalize me before I am detriment to myself!)
I just dont know why you are so negative about this. Could you explain this to me? And dont spout numbers, no one is that mad about numbers. There is something deeper here.
One more thing that I want to address.
When I was talking about not being negative, I was by no means saying that you should not question Quixtar. That would be insanity to be involved in something that you didnt hold up to scrutiny.
First off, the Proctor and Gamble comment was not meant to be taken seriously.
And what would have indicated that to the reader?
I was poking fun at why you have such a blatant anger towards people...
I have no anger at all towards people on this issue. Dishonest arguments, illogic, and apparent deception bother me -- of course. That is at it should be. But it's not personal.
You seem to offer a lot of bad logic and/or dishonest arguments. Thus you see the anger I have towards what I consider evil.
"Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good." (Romans 12:9)
If you don't hate what is evil, you're not truly loving people. If you loved people, you would hate what harms them. Yet you appear to be unable to distinguish between hating an idea, or "system", and hating people -- as if the two were inseperable to you.
You don't seem to want to debate whether Quixtar harms or helps people... so how can you say it's wrong to dislike it without that step? Your argument seems rather incoherant.
... yes calling people stupid... and ignorant...
I believe you are referring to Imran, who is a visitor to these threads, not me, the blog author. Normally, I delete comments containing such insults, but I sometimes miss a few before people can respond to them. Apologies.
Imran was a former IBO, and lost a lot of money doing Quixtar, so I can understand why he might have strong opinions, but please understand you are only referring to one person, who is not me.
... claiming that people are in a scam or cult is mean and nasty.
Only if the claim is known to be untrue. If it's true, then by doing so, you might be the one person who helps them.
So, we shouldn't say that Enron was a scam, because it would be "mean and nasty?"
Forgive me, but I can't help but suspect such tactics are simply meant to short-circuit any debate as to whether Quixtar is a cult or scam, and demand everyone call Quixtar "legitimate" and "not a scam" in the purported cause of "niceness".
Im sorry that you dont feel that way.
Please try hard to understand this: If Quixtar generally hurts people, then it is good to denounce it.
You'll have to address that argument at some time.
If it makes you feel better, I do not know that P&G have anything to do with any of these sites.
"Any of these sites?" This is a blog. I write mostly about politics, religion, and science fiction. It's not devoted to Quixtar. I'm just a normal human being who wandered into your net, was appalled at what he saw, and posted a few warnings.
But Quixtar IBOs are drawn to those few postings like a moth to a flame, and generally feel compelled to come here and state things which are untrue, and call other people "losers", or attempt to imply people shouldn't question Quixtar.
I find this behavior fascinating. It's as if they have a very deep insecurity about the purported goodness of their "system" and need to defend themselves.
I was not claiming otherwise. If it was taken the wrong way, I apologize for misleading anyone. It was meant as humor. End of subject.
Forgiven, and believed as such. But there was nothing in context to suggest it was supposed to be funny. Especially given that IBOs actually make such claims with some frequency.
Second, if you truly want to see mean and nasty, then look at the comments about my parents marriage. How dare you speculate that this is another unverifiable testimony.
It's not speculation, it's fact -- on this forum, all such anecdotal claims are unverifiable when first posted.
I'm sorry if your world is shattered by that news. That seems a bit brittle to me.
Perhaps in your world, everything an IBO says should be accepted as truth. In my world, you don't have to call such stories lies, nor call them true -- you simply take them with a dose of salt. Sorry if you find this offensive -- I find it to be the only reasonable stance to take, as the only two other available options are blind acceptance, or blind denial, of every story told by an IBO.
You can ignorantly argue that this does not work...
Wait, wait -- wasn't it out of bounds to argue someone was ignorant? :-)
I didn't argue it didn't work for your parents. I simply pointed out that one positive anecdote -- even if true -- wouldn't negate the greater trends I see much more evidence for: That (a) Quixtar destroys or harms many marriages, and (b) Quixtar is often sold by claiming to be good for marriage.
You're welcomed to refute those points, but trying to shame me for making them, or pointing out you could possibly be simply making up a story -- isn't going to work. I haven't done anything wrong for making these true statements, and I care not one whit what you think of me.
I dont care, but you should be ashamed for painting my experience as bs. I am so mad and hurt that you could be this inhumane.
I'd recommend you get over it. In the real world, people exhibit something called "skepticism". It doesn't make them evil or mean, instead, it's a rather reasonable caution.
It is your job to overcome such reasonable caution in accepting claims by providing better supporting evidence -- not simply crying because some horrible blogger dared to point out we had nothing other than your word to go on, and that your story went against the grain.
You're either being very deceptive and continuing to spin your yarn, or are an emotional basket case who is apparently unable to deal with even the slightest challenge to the veracity of your story.
Either way, you're not doing much for your case, I would say.
I do not consider people who dont build this business (or please let me know what way I should say this so I dont sound "brainwashed") losers.
Adding the word "business" helps immensely. And yes, I acknowlege that you haven't called me "loser" -- how nice of you.
If you find it impermissible that Imran called a mass of people "stupid" out of frustration, I just think it would nice and consistent for you to similarly note that IBOs frequently call people who disagree with them "losers", as they do frequently here.
Otherwise, I have trouble with the idea that you are deeply offended by how "nasty" non-Quixtar people are, while completely failing to notice the same sort of behavior (or much worse, in my experience) from IBOs.
And we can argue about how to measure how much money people make on average. I do agree that it is not much.
Great! I may quote you on it.
That is because most people do not have the mentallity of a business owner and need someone to tell them what to do. This just isnt going to happen in Quixtar. THEY ARE NOT LOSERS!!!! They just should not have taken on this business if they were not going to work it right.
What you say here -- once again -- is simply false. You don't even understand the nature of your own purported business -- or perhaps you're being deliberate deceptive. Either way...
Imagine a town with 100 people. One person starts doing Quixtar. She signs six more up. Then they sign up 36 more. Now 43 are involved. Those last 43 have -- how many people left to tap? Only about 1.2 each. That's not enough to make recoup the lost time they will put in discovering that fact.
Did they fail because they were "wrong" for the business? No, they failed because the were at the "bottom" of the pyramid.
Sure, you'll get some who will work harder than others, and get more downlines. But those downlines always come at the expense of another IBO. If everyone worked 1000% harder, absolutely nothing would change.
So I agree that most don't fail because they are "losers" -- most fail because THAT'S HOW THE BUSINESS WORKS. Each penny an upline receives comes from a downline -- who must find and furher indebt many, many more downlines to make up their own debt in a similar way. And those downlines must do the same...
Someone is always left holding the bag. Even if Quixtar somehow got better at only accepting "better" IBOs, nothing would change -- like a professor who grades on a curve, some would always fail.
In the case of Quixtar, the vast majority fail.
So, nice try, but I wasn't born yesterday.
(Actually, it's much worse than I describe, as a huge amount wealth is squandered in the prospecting process and other side effects...)
Next, even if your claim -- that many IBOs were just the "wrong kind" of people -- were 100% true, what would this mean?
Imagine a doctor was handing out drugs which damaged 99% of his patients and helped only 1%? We'd call him a quack, and tell him to stop doing it -- as he's doing far more harm than good -- or get some better screening techniques.
So your argument doesn't hold together even if your assertion was true -- Quixtar would still be as bad as a quack doctor
I just dont know why you are so negative about this. Could you explain this to me?
You're too funny! Okay: I'll try it again:
QUIXTAR HURTS PEOPLE.
Was that clear enough?
And dont spout numbers, no one is that mad about numbers. There is something deeper here.
Yes, there is, but you're looking in the wrong place for it. Try a mirror.
I visit a Quixtar meeting. I look into the business, like so many others I have considered. I conclude (a) the presentation I saw was deceptive, (b) the business doesn't pay much, (c) the nature of the business -- though not necessarily the intent of all those participating -- is inherantly unethical.
I lay out the basic facts which drew me to this conclusion. By some weird co-incindence, since this Quixtar supposed to be a business -- those arguments involve numbers.
The arguments could be wrong, of course, but I laid them out as I saw them. I wrote a few articles, and moved on with life.
The response?
Dozens of IBOs -- just like yourself -- can't possibly imagine that it's just that simple. They log on and post comments, variously attempting to stop people from debating Quixtar's merits, calling others "losers", posting lies and illogical arguments, and in general apparently going nuts that I dared simply say I thought Quixtar was a bad, unethical, unprofitable business venture.
Sure, something is strange here, but forgive me if I don't see it as the guy who just wrote down his experience.
So why I am writing even more now?
Because you're posting, goofball.
I make it a policy to respond to a good percentage of posts I disagree with -- on any topic, not just Quixtar. But when I posted my few Quixtar-related articles, I never imagined they be bug-lights for obsessive IBOs, who seem drawn to them like moths to flame.
So yes, I think IBOs are very strange. You'd never see the same behavior if I said instead that McDonald's hamburgers, for example, were of low quality, tasted bad, and were unhealthy.
But there's something, apparently, about IBOs, which makes it impossible for them to resist attempting to justify themselves here.
I suspect deep inside, they're know what they're doing hurts people -- or at least have too much pride to admit it -- so they engage in very strange behavior. But I admit that's just a guess.
Take yourself, for example: you apparently cannot believe that I simply think Quixtar is unethical, and unprofitable, and that I'm simply responding to your arguments.
That would seem nearly obvious, but apparently to you it's a deeply controversial theory.
When I was talking about not being negative, I was by no means saying that you should not question Quixtar...
Again, you're so cute -- you seem to think I have no memory at all. You just got done telling everyone you thought it was "nasty" to imply Quixtar might be a cult or scam -- now you think I won't notice your apparently dishonest about-face?
Out of one side of your mouth, you say it's okay to "question Quixtar." But, from the other side -- if someone comes to the wrong conclusion and decides it's bad, or a scam -- you attack them for being "mean and nasty"!
That's about as honest saying we can have freedom of the press, but only as long as they print nice articles about you.
Amusing, but dishonest nontheless.
So, just a question: Do you plan on getting out of this business, in which you hurt people to make a living?
Tim
You make some good points. I apologize for any time that it seems I was talking out of both sides of my mouth. And I respect what you are trying to do. If I felt something was hurting people, I too would speak out about it. What I dont appreciate is you painting me as some type of unethical monster. I think if we can both listen to each other, we can both learn from each other. Some of my comments, in review, were probably a bit defensive. And dont worry, after about 10 minutes, I was over your comments about my parents. Its just something that I hold very dear to my heart. Im sure you understand as you seem to be someone who holds very strong to his convictions as well.
Sarcasm does not read well in text, so I can understand how you might think I was speaking a self truth. Again, I wish I could have taken it back and made myself more clear. Allow me that mistake.
As far as your town arguement is concerned, that was something I thought about too. Please know that I am someone who has been on the periphery of this for about 7 years, so I have had doubts and I have questioned the Quixtar/Amway opportunity. I will say that if the world was made of 100 people, your arguement would stand true. But first off, there are almost 300 million people in the US alone. If that ever got saturated, (a word I could claim you are trying to brainwash people with, but I will make very clear right now, I am not accusing you of that at all, just pointing out the hypocricy) There are millions turning 18 every year that could then get involved. But this is all hypothical because that will never happen. There are only a certain amount of people that will make this work. As for your doctor analogy, I am not forcing anyone to take this "medicine". They have their own free will. I dont know what they really are thinking inside, just what they tell me. If they say this is something for them, then I take them at their word. I have even turned people away if I dont think they are serious about this. I do not want to waste my time and money or anyone else's.
One thing you and I can agree with is that there are people who are unethical in the Quixtar business. Ive met some and I wish I could do something about them. It would make my life much easier. But I hope you can see that we are not all the same. Just as you say you are doing this because you think you are saving people from themselves (and I believe you) I am spreading this concept because I think I am saving people. We are not that far apart, really. I know that may make you quiver, but I know you are smart enough to agree.
Tim, I am offering an olive branch of sorts. All of this name calling and the like are getting none of us anywhere. Lets not pick apart each other's sentences, trying to one up each other. We are both guilty of this. Lets have a rational conversation between the two of us and I know we will both be better for it.
Much Warmth
Brad
One more thing, again...
I forgot to address the McDonalds arguement. I think I know why you get an emotional reaction from Quxtar IBO's. I know I speak for many when I say that IBO's, whether you believe us or not, are doing this because they believe it is a noble cause. Nothing else I have ever encountered even has the possiblity of freeing up people's time and improving their lifestyle like I believe Quixtar can. Attacking a core belief like that is going to evoke an emotional reaction, just as you believe that we are doing something which evokes an emotional reaction from you. Hamburgers dont evoke this feeling. I hope you can understand that most of us are doing this because we believe it is good and does good for people.
Hmm, if u read my comments, I am usually returning the words thrown at me. Read it above, I'm usually not the first one. Well, usually :) Like I returned yours :)
I try not to but what you expect me to say when some one comments like:
"All you broke losers get a life! I can't believe how mean and nasty you ppl are. How dare you?? Move one. Ignorant fool"
I had some trouble with one anti-Quixtar folk as well, and some IBOs I really respect, e.g.
http://daveontheroad.blogspot.com/
If some one comment on my business (free lancing) I’ll listen. If there is some merit to it, I’ll give it a thought. If not, I don't care. It's just a business that’s all.
So, spreading of joy is not limited to a particular group. WYSIWYG ;) (What you say is what you get)
Imran
I totally agree with you, someone who is shouting about losers is nothing but a loser themself. I think alot of that comes from feeling on the defensive all the time, which I think also contributes to ones lack of success in anything you do, Quixtar, freelancing or any other business for that matter. Im sure the ones yelling about losers are not making that much money.
And Tim, as I wait for your reply on my earlier response (The only reason I am so deligent is because I sit at a desk waiting for phone calls all day which gives me a lot of downtime!) I want to thank you. Your site has made me realize that the kind of defensive attitude I displayed in earlier posts only hurt me and the point I am trying to get across. Thank you for the forum that allowed me to truly process my feelings on this subject. I really do believe in this opportunity and for that reason there is no need to fight with those who dont.
Here is a great article form a pro MLMer.
http://mlmblog.typepad.com/blog/2005/05/stop_ignoring_t.html
__________________________________________
Stop Ignoring The Negative
"Don't listen to negative people."
"Just Move On."
"Never take advice from people who are more screwed up than you are."
"There will be people like that. Don't worry about it."
This is the standard advice given to people that ask how to handle "the negative" associated with Network Marketing.
The big problem with the advice is that it is wrong. With
the rare exception of a person being negative simply for the sake of
being negative, people have very valid concerns about Network Marketing.
- High priced products
- Income claims
- Product claims
- Ineffective training systems that line the pockets of a few and empty the pockets of the majority
Network Marketing has earned it's reputation and the only way to
change it is to understand what the problems are and consistently be
different.
How about asking more questions, digging a little deeper and gaining
a true understanding of where the other person is coming from.
Want to help change our industry? A good place to start might be the 10 Principles of Highly Ethical Network Marketers.
__________________________________________
what do you think about that?
Imran
Its funny you post this, because it is very similar to the things I discussed last night with a new prospect, whom I am sponsoring this weekend.
I'll give a basic rundown on how I feel about each very valid concern.
High prices: I do believe that Quixtar prices are more expensive, on the whole, than if you went to Walmart or any grocery store. However, if you give me your email address, Ill send you a break down sheet that shows that per use, many of the products are actually cheaper. Also, they are enviornmentally safe, which is why they concentrate their products. They do not test on animals either. Also, there is value that is not just the physical price to factor in. A 180 day money back guarantee is unheard of at any store. I have seen people use the entire bottle, not feel they got their money's worth, and get the entire cost back. On top of that, the quality is top notch, especially the vitamin line. Im not going to sit here and argue about it. Some people have their preconceived notions about whether they are of great quality or not. Ultimately though, if the trade off is a little pricier product for the chance to set yourself up for life, Ill make that trade any day.
As far as income claims, my parents are my upline and I used to run their distribution part of the biz, so I handled the money. I deposited the checks. At Platinum, they would regularly bring in the money stated in the plan. $3000 a month plus. More often in the 4000-5000 range. You can choose to believe me or not, again I dont really care. That is my experience. Are there people who dont make that and claim otherwise? Absolutely. And do people make money on the tapes? Yes. Just as any speaker makes money, so do they. But they can not make that money until they are already making the money stated in the Quixtar business plan.
I dont know what you mean by product claims so Ill go on to the last one.
Some groups have great training. Some dont. Working for Motel 6 is not the same experience as working for the Ritz Carlton. I will say that the World Wide Group is the finest that I know of. The numbers I have seen show that we have roughly 20% of the population of Quixtar and 50% of the volume. Just dont confuse all groups as being the same.
I hope this helps. To be continued....
Brad,
Regarding:
You make some good points. I apologize for any time that it seems I was talking out of both sides of my mouth.
The point was for your reflection and edification; no apologies are required. But your apology seems squishy -- "I apologize it seems I was talking out of both sides of my mouth."
Well, were you or weren't you contradicting yourself, and setting up an impossible standard by which you could condemn your opponent [me] under either scenario?
If you weren't, just explain how. If you were, just apologize for what you did -- don't apologize for what you imply are my misperceptions. To apologize to someone for faults you simultaneously ascribe to them is both insulting and insincere.
If I felt something was hurting people, I too would speak out about it.
Bingo.
What I dont appreciate is you painting me as some type of unethical monster.
"Painting" you how? Be specific. I can see two possible complaints:
(a) I argue that Quixtar hurts people. Thus, you might feel I was arguing you are unethical for participating. But I think I've already made it clear that sometimes people do harmful things without knowing it:
"[T]he nature of the business -- though not necessarily the intent of all those participating -- is inherantly unethical."
If that wasn't clear enough before, then I hope I have made it so now.
(b) Perhaps you feel condemned because I argue you make false assertions at several points. If I'm wrong for saying so, it's up to you to demonstrate how, in specific. Otherwise, if I'm right, then perhaps you should start thinking about the point or fact itself, rather than obsessing about how it might make you look or feel.
Again, it sounds to me like you're objecting to the general implication of what I'm saying. If I've said something false, or said something unwarranted at some specific point, or done something especially unethical, then, of course, I should apologize.
But otherwise, you seem to simply be objecting to the inevitable conclusion, and how it reflects on you, rather than asking whether it's true or false, and what that should mean to your actions.
"Half the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don’t mean to do harm — but the harm does not interest them. Or they do not see it, or they justify it because they are absorbed in the endless struggle to think well of themselves." - T.S. Eliot, The Cocktail Party
I think if we can both listen to each other, we can both learn from each other.
I agree; maybe I should, I don't know, think deeply about every single statement you make and provide a thoughtful, reasoned response to it.
Oh wait, I've been doing that all along.
So it sounds like you're offering yourself advice. Great then, but why do it here, and implicate me, again, in your shortfall? It seems you can't admit you have a problem without implying that I must somehow share it.
Ego-protection again. Stop it.
I have problems too, but, by the looks of it, they're different than yours. Otherwise, unless you can point to something specific, stop trying to project your every error upon me.
Some of my comments, in review, were probably a bit defensive. And dont worry, after about 10 minutes, I was over your comments about my parents. Its just something that I hold very dear to my heart.
Worry? What made you think I would worry? You say I need to listen more to you, you have already forgotten that I told you I don't care one whit what you think of me. I care for you as a person, yes, but I don't care about your moral judgements concerning me.
Next: I said nothing about nor against your parents. To repeat yet again: I pointed out that your story was (a) unverifiable, and (b) atypical.
Imagine you said you had consumed ten gallons of ice cream in the last two days. That's possible, but, in most peoples' perception, unlikely. If someone said they weren't sure whether to believe you, would that be a deep insult to the goodness and tastiness of...
ice cream?
No. So let's stop pretending that my skepticism about a story was a personal insult to the goodness of your parents, m'kay? I offered comments about your story, not some judgement about the goodness of the characters within it, and it's dishonest to keep insisting otherwise.
Im sure you understand as you seem to be someone who holds very strong to his convictions as well.
Well, that's a refreshing change from implying I must only be opposed to Quixtar because I suffer from deep psychological hangups.
Sarcasm does not read well in text...
Oh, don't put it down, it's quite effective at moments. ;-)
Again, I wish I could have taken it back and made myself more clear. Allow me that mistake.
You are acting as though I'm your judge and hold something against you. I don't, and bear you no personal animosity.
You're allowed as many mistakes as you want. I'll point them out, but what to do about them is your problem, not mine. Again, I'm not your judge, and I'm not allowed to hold grudges when a person confesses error and asks pardon.
And if you want the sardonic or embarassing responses to stop, all it takes is for you to stop making false statements.
As far as your town arguement is concerned, that was something I thought about too. Please know that I am someone who has been on the periphery of this for about 7 years, so I have had doubts and I have questioned the Quixtar/Amway opportunity. I will say that if the world was made of 100 people, your arguement would stand true. But first off, there are almost 300 million people in the US alone.
Sometimes I must omit details for brevity and clarity. I expected you to respond this way, and so now we move on to Phase II of this answer:
Yes, of course there are. But it scales up quite nicely. It just takes longer, runs slower, stretches out longer, and produces far, far more victims. See the second section here.
Try putting a zero on the end of each number, and you have the approximate scenario for 1000. Put another zero on, and you have the approximate scenario for 10,000, and so on. But the ending state doesn't change.
Does this happen in real life? Yes. What do you think made "Amway" die for a while, and finally forced it to rename itself and pretend to be something completely different? The only way out is if the population grows faster than the pyramid needs to expand. It doesn't -- not even close.
If that ever got saturated, (a word I could claim you are trying to brainwash people with, but I will make very clear right now, I am not accusing you of that at all, just pointing out the hypocricy)...
I see you're back to the blatantly false statements again. Sigh...
(a) You "could" claim anything, of course. But it strikes me pathologically dishonest to suggest I'm "brainwashing" people by using a word which I've never even used here.
It would appear that you simply aren't interested in making true statements. You should ask yourself why you're tempted to do this repeatedly. I'd suggest your ego is needing to get back at me, in order to justify itself. If so, tell it to take a hike, stop being so personal, and focus your mind on the logic and facts of the argments at hand.
(b) You are falsely redefining brainwashing. To make a point via reasoned argument and evidence, a point that a listener accepts, through deliberate thought, by their own volition, is the exact opposite of brainwashing.
In contrast, to "brainwash" is to bypass the cognitive function of the brain.
But if you simply used the correct, normal definition, you couldn't me accuse me of yet another crime, now, could you?
Again, ask yourself why you keep making such simple errors, apparently in an effort to try to accuse me of evil. What drives you to see evil in others? Possible answer to consider: You don't want to confront it in yourself.
(c) You claim I am guilty of "hypocrisy", meaning, apparently, that (1) I have accused you of "brainwashing", and (2) that I am equally guilty of "brainwashing" by using the word "saturation".
Yet, even if I had used the dreaded word repeatedly here, your claim would still be baseless, as I never accused you of brainwashing anyone! So I'm not sure what I would even be a "hypocrite" about either, since, as far as I can see, I'm not guilty of the first half of the charge either.
So, again, if you want to make this dialog more pleasant for yourself, you're going to need to stop doing things like this, as it always ends up with me writing responses like these.
There are millions turning 18 every year that could then get involved.
Population growth in the US is 0.92% annually (source: CIA world factbook). That means that for each 100 people, each year, there is nearly one new person. Or, put another more humorous way (you'll see why in a moment) for each living person, there is 1/100th of an additional person added to the population each year.
How many new people will each IBO need to recruit each year? Yes, that's right -- far more than 1/100th of a person. In fact, if they need only 6 new downlines per year, that means the growth rate is 600 times too slow. But the required number is far higher still, of course.
What if we say that only 1 in 100 people is a potential IBO? All that does is hide the 3 million potential IBOs among the 297 million others -- it means that IBO will look, in desparation, longer, as the apparent "available pool" looks larger than it really is. This, in turn, means the victims will lose more time, effort, and money before realizing there just aren't enough people left out there to make them a profit.
I think saturation has been reached already. If you look at the numbers (falling profit trends, high turnover rate among low-level IBOs), it seems quite clear that Quixar is already collapsing in the US.
Just as Amway did before.
It's just going faster this time because of the internet, and blogs which can publish comments like this one.
But this is all hypothical because that will never happen. There are only a certain amount of people that will make this work.
I've already covered this point above.
As for your doctor analogy, I am not forcing anyone to take this "medicine".
Think: Nor would the doctor be.
They have their own free will.
Yes, of course. If that argument was valid, there could be no such thing as criminal "con men" because their victims also do what they do by their own free will.
Nor could you ever charge a seller, of any kind, with fraud because people always bought their faulty products of "their own free will."
So you are apparently using invalid arguments to defend yourself, yet again.
I dont know what they really are thinking inside, just what they tell me. If they say this is something for them, then I take them at their word.
If I sell a man a car, and don't tell him that it I or someone else put sawdust into the gears to temporarily mask the fact the transmission is nearly shot, would it be a justification for me say, of myself:
"I don't know what he was thinking. If he said the car was good for him, then I just took him at his word before I sold it to him!"
No?
Gee, then what's wrong with that picture?
Oh right: He wasn't given all the relevant data. The picture in his mind didn't match the full picture in reality. If I helped "deceive" him (and yes, that's what doing that is called), then I bear some responsibility for that.
In your world, not.
Why?
Perhaps because you find it intolerable to admit you might have done something wrong?
If so: Get over it. People are often evil and selfish. (And I'm no exception.) So there's no special rule by which you're exempt from that.
I have even turned people away if I dont think they are serious about this.
Utterly irrelevant.
First, as you admit, there's nothing selfless about doing so: You recognize that non-serious people will take your time and cut into your profits.
Second, those people you reject wouldn't be hurt much anyway -- since they wouldn't put much into it. It's the good ones -- the ones who will really try who are going either create the most victims downline, and/or lose the most before finally figuring the whole thing out.
That's deeply sick, but that's how it works. The harder a person works, they more damage is done.
Third, as I explained above, all you're doing is making a smaller pool of IBOs. But the overall effect is the same regardless of the pool size: The "system" always expands in a pyramid shape -- and each upline "winner" is created only by manufacturing many more downline victims from which to draw the wealth which creates those "winners", and which provides Quixtar with that massive profit that you mistakenly thought belongs to the IBOs.
Compare that profit (about $6.3 billion) -- which comes from the IBOs -- to the payback -- which goes back to the IBOs (a pathetic $334 million, I have been told), and you can see what's going on. But most IBOs don't know to do that, since Quixtar preys upon people with little or no understanding of business or economics.
Fourth, again, as I explained, even if we could make all the IBOs we recruit try harder, the effect would not change, as it's a mere matter of math, not effort. Again, if everyone tried 1000% harder, absolutely nothing would improve; and if there were fewer IBOs, the percentage of losers would still be the same. Turning away people who might not try hard doesn't fix any of that.
One thing you and I can agree with is that there are people who are unethical in the Quixtar business. Ive met some and I wish I could do something about them.
That's true, but it's utterly irrelevant, except, perhaps to distract you from thinking about the more important point, which is that even the allegedly "ethical" IBOs are hurting people.
Every business has unethical people in it.
But, again, Quixtar isn't unethical because some or many IBOs are. Again, the nature of the business itself is unethical. The "unethical IBOs" argument you are taught, and may teach others, is just to mislead you into thinking that's the key problem. It isn't.
But I hope you can see that we are not all the same.
What???
Let's do a quick review. So far, you have:
1. Called me "mean and nasty" simply on the basis that I didn't think Quixtar was a good thing
2. Implied I'm just a paid whore whose opinions and ethics could be bought by some corporation
3. Claimed I had impugned your parents' goodness, rather than your story's verifiability and applicability
4. Called me "inhumane" -- like someone who kicks puppies, simply becaues I am generally skeptical toward unverifiable stories
5. Falsely claimed I called people "stupid"
6. Suggested I had deep psychological issues
7. Made false statements about many aspects of Quixtar
8. Levelled unfounded accusations of hypocrisy against me
9. Falsely implied that I claimed you had "brainwashed" people
10. Falsely assert that I have trouble that listening to your arguments and taking them seriously
... and probably other things, but that's enough to make the point.
AND, after doing all this, you say: "I hope you can see we are all not the same"??? You must have an exceptional pride to be making such a statement, offering yourself as a model of goodness and fair play, after writing such things.
Look: I don't bring these up because I'm still mad about them: I'm not. But I repeat all this to you in order to show you -- for your own sake, hopefully -- how absurd your line of argument here is, and make you ask why on earth you feel it was justified to make, given all of that.
Here's an answer: You write these things because you feel you are a good person -- not because any sane reader could have gotten that impression from your tactics here.
Wake up: You are not a good person. Look at the evidence. But again: I'm not either. As Jesus put it: "Why do you call me 'good'? No one is good—except God alone." (Matt 10:18)
Now, hopefully you can stop trying to defend your non-evident wonderfulness, and get on with the business of trying to figure out what is a good, profitable, and ethical course of action to take, and what is not.
(And can you blame me, given all of the above, for occasionaly lapsing into sacarasm? Next, try multiplying all that by almost every IBO who's ever posted here. Almost all of you are like this, in my experience.)
Just as you say you are doing this because you think you are saving people from themselves (and I believe you)...
Actually, since I initially assume they are just deceived, I hope to be "saving them" (that's your phrase, not mine) from Quixtar.
I find it quite telling you need to change my argument in this fashion when repeating it back. You took the blame off Quixtar and put it back on the would-be victims. Can you imagine a motive for doing that? Could it be a reflex to blame the victims? Why? To defend what you've done by accusing them of deficiency?
I personally believe that's how Quixtar works: It teaches people to project it's problems on the victims. If anyone else sold a product which blew up and hurt 99% of the buyers, any normal human would blame the product. But Quixtar IBOs are carefully trained to only blame the ones who bought the product -- as you do above -- while not noticing they're one of them, too, nor considering the same will happen to them.
Because of what? Greed, initially. And pride, too, once they've gotten started.
My two cents.
I am spreading this concept because I think I am saving people.
Or, perhaps were once. Now, apparently, you're not so sure. Of course, that's the danger of having this conversation: You might have been (or might not have been) innocent before. But here I am, annoying presenting you with copious evidence to the contrary.
Now you're no longer "innocent" or "ignorant", assuming you were once. If you look into the evidence, and can't show that I'm wrong or lying, then you are faced with a choice: You must either stop what you're doing, or you go on, having deliberatly chosen to hurt people in order to help yourself.
Worse, even if you just decide not to look into it further, you would still be guilty: it would mean you're not very interested in making sure you're not hurting people, like the pilot who couldn't be bothered to check if the runway is clear before he brings his plane and passengers in for a landing.
We are not that far apart, really. I know that may make you quiver, but I know you are smart enough to agree.
You know nothing about me, I would say. Looking at what you've written, it appears you make factual error after factual error. Why you should then imagine, given all that, that you're suddenly a sage at determining my psychology -- when you're clearly making many factual mistakes, and apparently just starting to realize things about your own?
You say it, apparently, because you wish it to be true, not because there is copious visible evidence for it.
While all humans have things in common, you and I, right now, have one huge difference you can't seem to understand: Again, I could care less about whether you like me -- you seem to think everyone, like you, is deeply moved by that the need for approval from others and the need to think well of themselves.
And you show your stripes once again: "I know you are smart enough to agree." You dangle a compliment out in front me: I get the compliment, and can feel you think I'm smart, if only I'll just agree with your statement.
Again, you probably think that will work on me because -- as you apparently admit -- you imagine we're the same in this regard: that I share your need think well of myself and have others think well of me.
I'd also guess that might be a typical way you're used to manipulating people.
Sorry. As I've explained before: I have a completely different set of motivations from yours. You apparently want to look good in your own eyes -- and perhaps others' too. In terms of this discussion, I instead have a boss who I want to please, even if I fail miserably at times.
Tim, I am offering an olive branch of sorts. All of this name calling and the like are getting none of us anywhere.
And there you go again: you imply I'm in some kind of "war" with you, and that I somehow take you're apparently unceasingly-dishonest rhetoric personally. Yet time and time again, I have to remind you that I am simply responding to your statements. When you say something good or true, you get a good response. When you say something false or seemingly manipulative, you get disagreement. Is that too hard to grasp?
Stop saying false things -- for example, accusing me of things I'm not doing, as you do yet again in this very statement.
Lets not pick apart each other's sentences, trying to one up each other.
Translation: Stop listening carefully to me! Stop exposing my errors when I say things which are false! Please just agree with things I say, even if they're not true in the slightest!
We are both guilty of this.
No: Only I am "guilty" of considering your words carefully, and "picking them apart". I plead "guilty" entirely to this. (As if that were a crime, rather than what you just finished demanding of me, and saying I didn't do.)
On the other hand, I see no evidence whatsoever you are equally "guilty" of doing the same with my words. Instead, you can't even seem to remember what I've said and what I haven't -- alternately putting words in my mouth, and ignoring or distorting the ones I have spoken.
As far as trying to "up one another", you apparently have just admitting what you're doing. Good enough. As far as me, if you have clear evidence of wrongdoing, present it, rather than just endlessly implying it. Otherwise, from my vantage point, it looks as though I'm simply attempting to refute a deluge of false statements.
And simply refuse to roll over and call those many false statements "true".
And if that makes you feel bad, well, then start making more true ones.
Lets have a rational conversation between the two of us and I know we will both be better for it.
Well, a good first step, as I see it, would be for you to start reasoning a bit more, and spending less time moping about your feelings, and whether you felt hurt. If you are engaged in an unethical activity, and are offering deceptive arguments, then perhaps a bit of recrimination would be healthy for you. But you need to establish that first, one way or another.
But as it is, you have the gall to tell me to omit arguments involving numbers, talk endlessly about your feelings and how you felt, and whether you were all defensive, imply I care deeply about your opinion of me, can't even remember what I've said, put words into my mouth, imply I'm not listening to you when I clearly am, and then launch into a lecture about how I need to be more rational?
(a) It seems, again, that's primarily your problem, not mine,
(b) Even if I did, so what? Matthew 7:3-5.
(c) You need serious help.
Luckily, on point (c), serious help exists. You want to feel good about yourself? Try this: admit that you are basicly selfish and egotistical (old-fashioned word was "pride"); be honestly sorry to God for being that way, and believe Jesus died to forgive you of all that and can help you out of that mess, which you will now have admitted you're in.
It's that simple.
Works well: we can all stop pretending that we're wonderful people when we're clearly not, we're important because God loves us enough to suffer and die for us, we become grateful for that and want to help others, and we can get on with doing what we're here for, and stop trying endlessly to make ourselves look good.
Just a thought.
Tim
You tire me out. Your ramblings, while showing you to be highly intelligent, are based on taking everything I say and implying I mean other things by it. I was hoping two intelligent human beings could have a dialogue and not have one lecture the other. I will let those who come to your site read our offerings and decide who is now being defensive and who seems pretty secure with where they stand. You claim this is a small part of your blog, yet I checked several other conversations you have going and none of the ones I saw did you dedicate the amount of time to that you have with me. (bad sentence structure, but at this point I dont care) I seem to have gotten under your skin, which of course you will tell me how I am implying something vicious upon you. And then youll take apart my use of the word vicious. I will give you one example of how I could do the same.
2. Implied I'm just a paid whore whose opinions and ethics could be bought by some corporation
This of course is not true because I never implied this. I stated it as a joke and upon realizing my error, I cleared up my position and apologized. That no longer should be on the table.
I could go on and on like you, but I dont put you as that important in my life. Again, you will find a little bit of something I said and make some huge arguement otherwise. I would be curious to hear from others as to whether you seem to care too much or not. A little case of "though doth protest too much"?
The point is, you could pick apart anything and make it sound however you like. You are motivated to make me sound bad and in your mind Im sure you did. However, as I read your text, it became increasingly sad how little a person you really are. And you can quote me on that. I tried to make this cordial and I tried to have a discussion, but unfortunately you are only capable of lecture.
I may still post on this site, as I find Imran to be a good person, but I will not respond to you anymore Tim. I am sorry it has to be that way. I wish you luck in your life.
Brad
PS I look forward to how you will claim I am avoiding you. Im sure you believe that.
You tire me out. Your ramblings, while showing you to be highly intelligent, are based on taking everything I say and implying I mean other things by it.
Yes, I am verbose. That's a definite fault.
Take it as a sign that I think you're important enough to make that investment, in hope you'll seriously consider some of the points I made.
If you think I've done something unfair or dishonest, you're welcomed to provide a specific example. As I said before, if you make a reasonable point, I will indeed apologize.
I was hoping two intelligent human beings could have a dialogue and not have one lecture the other.
Amazing.
For example: I spell out a brief scenario with 100 people to demonstrate something about Quixar and effort level, and refute your statement to the contrary. In the middle of responding, you write a sizeable blurb accusing me of being a hypocrite and hint I could be seen as "brainwashing" people! And now you upbraid me for "lecturing" you (for example) because I responded to those accusations?
Impressive.
I will let those who come to your site read our offerings and decide who is now being defensive and who seems pretty secure with where they stand.
You catch on: That's a much better approach.
You claim this is a small part of your blog, yet I checked several other conversations you have going and none of the ones I saw did you dedicate the amount of time to that you have with me.
You haven't looked around much. There are articles on the front page right now whose size dwarfs anything I've written here. They're probably equally tedious, but hey, as I said, that's a fault I have.
Next, I'd point out that you opened up with more accusations than anyone in this thread. I've laid all this out above. There's an assymetrical nature to such things: it's easy to say something false, it's often much harder to correct it. It's easy to say: "You beat your wife!" -- but takes many more words to respond adequately to such a charge.
I seem to have gotten under your skin...
Less than many other things. See previous comments.
...which of course you will tell me how I am implying something vicious upon you. And then youll take apart my use of the word vicious. I will give you one example of how I could do the same.
Re-read my posts above. As long as you stuck to Quixtar -- and didn't go off into ramblings about your issues with me -- I responded in kind. But when you'd change my statements, or attribute things to me I hadn't said, or go off into motivations, etc., well, once again, I responded to what you raised.
"2. Implied I'm just a paid whore whose opinions and ethics could be bought by some corporation" -- This of course is not true because I never implied this. I stated it as a joke and upon realizing my error, I cleared up my position and apologized.
(a) Again, I was addressing your words, not your intent. If I wrote "You beat your wife!", I may mean it as a joke, but I'm still implying (to put it mildly) that you actually beat your wife -- whatever my hidden intent might have been.
Words may imply things other than what we meant. See the definition: "imply - (3) to contain potentially". I'm certainly not twisting the language. You are incorrect when you claim my statement was false, and that you never implied such a thing.
(b) I do apologiz |
Ok I am in, I'll edify you and get more suckers err ppl sign up if you give me a good percentage of the money you'd be making. I'll promote you BIG time and in return, u do same for me. Ppl under me means percentage going to u as well.
Capisce?
Posted by: Imran Aziz on October 17, 2004 01:48 AM