Introduction[If my wordy introduction bores you, skip to the "Analysis" section below. Thanks.] Last night I decided to tune into Air America's "The Majority Report." Big topic at the moment: "The Conyers Report." As usual, the outstanding feature of Air America is hemetically-sealed environment in which their viewpoint is presented to listeners: no callers allowed, no-one may question the narrative or present contradictory facts or arguments. Given what I heard, I can understand why so many on the left are so upset: if taken at face value and believed unquestioningly, this narrative presents a picture of a nation where "the current administration was never elected" -- and we're already deep into a "theocracy", controlled by the "Christian right" and "moneyed interests." To quote. Certainly, I was aware of massive fraud during the last election. Republicans trying to get out the vote all over the country were actually physically attacked by AFL-CIO thugs. In east St. Louis, Democratic party leaders attempted to kill eyewitnesses to their ballot-box-stuffing operations. In my home state, Wisconsin, friends and relatives of Democratic leaders slashed the tires of a fleet of vehicles Republicans were going to use to help the poor and elderly conservative voters exercise their right to vote. In Madison Wisconsin, anyone who walked into the polls was allowed to vote without even being asked for ID. In Racine, Hispanics who announced that they were illegal immigrants were allowed to vote. After the election, it was found that there were thousands of fraudulent Democratic ballots cast. In many Democrat-leaning areas of Ohio, there were more voters registered to vote than people in the areas (120% registration!). And we all know about the massive fraud in King County, Washington State. So yes, I was aware of a massive attempt to undermine Democracy, but -- with one exception -- it seemed by far most of this nonesense was coming from Democrats. (The one exception being reports that a Republican-connected organization in Nevada was offering to help people register, and then throwing away the registration forms. I personally found that charge credible. But, again, is seems Democrats also did the same thing, or much worse, apparently, considering massive scale and the final step: "Mac Stuart, a former ACORN field director, told investigators that workers for the organization routinely withheld Republican voter registrations, while 'thousands of invalid voter-registration cards' were submitted in their place. He said he was ordered by ACORN officials to generate 103,000 voter registrations from Dade County.") But perhaps I hadn't heard the whole story. So I listened carefully to this discussion about the "Conyers Report", which supposedly detailed massive fraud by Republicans in Ohio -- and thus a stolen presidential election. What I heard concerned me, but, listening critically -- i.e. trying to ignore the name-calling and listening for actual purported evidence -- I didn't hear much which was definitive. So I decided to get online to see what I could see, and how it stood up. Here is a standard summary, from "truthout", a partisan-left website. I could already see some holes, but some of the allegations -- like discriminatory allocation of voting machines in Ohio -- needed to be supported or undermined by hard data. In researching this, I can see another reason the left finds this convicing: a search produced page after page of left-leaning websites, repeating the same exact charges, usually verbatim. It wasn't until the 20th page of Google hits that I saw even a single article proposing an alternative narrative. Strangely, it was written by Russ Baker, a Democrat, and posted to a liberal web site named "Progressive News." Now, to address some of the charges in the Conyers Report (as summarized)... The first thing I discovered was that even if you gave benefit of doubt, the maximum number of people alleged to be disenfranchised weren't enough to change the outcome -- not by far: while thousands of votes allegedly to have been somehow "ruined", Bush's lead was 118,000 votes. Even if all disputed votes were somehow contaminated deliberate malfeasance, and all of went to Bush, but should have gone to Kerry, it still wouldn't have changed the election outcome. (And that, I believe, was probably Kerry's reasoning for not pursuing them. It's too bad his followers can't figure that out, but I guess the myth must live on to keep the troops angry and fearful.) Moreover, when you begin to look into the actual allegations, and specific evidence regarding them, an entirely different picture emerges...
Democrats often point to problems in heavily-Democratic precincts to give the impression "something sneaky" is going on there -- as in Florida. But what they typically don't tell their readers or listeners -- and today's Air America show sadly demonstrates -- is that those areas are often controlled partially or completely by their own people. In Ohio, there does seem to have problems with some Democratic districts having too few voting machines, particularly in Franklin County. But here's what they're not telling their readers (emphasis added):
The tacit impression that you get from the Air America show -- of an election machine controlled by Republicans -- is simply false. State laws ensure a bipartisan participation in all decisions -- even in Democrat-controlled areas like Franklin County. If there was a conspiracy to commit fraud, it was a massive one involving 176 complicit Democrats. This leads to a more mundane explanation: big cities, the main centers of Democratic control and support, are often strapped for cash, and tend to do things badly, and cut corners where possible. Baker came to the exact same conclusion, noting problem areas had experienced a recent growth spurt, and that the powers-that-be had felt it wasn't worth the investment to buy new machines which would soon be obsolete. Which brings me to another point: On Air America, they alleged that the Republican leadership of Ohio were against any kind of reform. To the contrary, the very reason the machines would have become obsolete is because the state leadership -- Republicans -- had passed a law mandating a paper trail for all votes by the next election.
Not according to this Democrat (and sometime Nation magazine author):
In other words, contrary to what the Conyers Report asserts, this ruling didn't usually result in a misdirected person not being able to cast a vote.
Since Blackwell's attempt to disqualify these registrations failed (yet another important fact being withheld from the reader!), it's impossible to reasonably claim it "resulted in thousands of new voters not being registered in time." (And even if it had, they still could have cast a provisional ballot!) Perhaps this was a bad call on his part -- I haven't had the time to look into the reasoning behind it, given the number of allegations to cover here -- but the obvious fact is that this denied request had zero effect. This has been obviously added simply to make people angry at Blackwell's alleged attitude, not because any votes could have been lost because of it.
What this charge refers to is the fact that Republicans sent registered mail to a number of newly-registered voters in order to see if they really existed. The Republicans were simply following the law for how to challenge voters. Read this Columbus Dispatch article about it (emph added):
About 1 out of 8 new voters who recently registered come back with notices saying the "voters" are currently living somewhere else, are dead, or don't even exist. By some strange co-incidence, this tends to happen in Democratic areas! And Democrats allege the Republicans are "intimidating" voters and engaging in fraud -- even though they followed the correct legal processes? If this is evidence of vote fraud, this would seem to point to Democrats, not Republicans.
Sounds evil doesn't it? Again, that changes when you hear the facts they yet again withhold from their readers. The process of challenging voters is not unusual, is completely legal, and, as noted in the previous article, both Democrats and Republicans appointed "thousands of challengers" to the polls. The court ruled [pdf], simply (emph. added):
Whether or not we like the idea (another interesting tidbit: Ken Blackwell opposed such challenges), these Republican (and Democratic) challengers did absolutely nothing illegal, nor have I seen any evidence that lines were attributed to vote challenges.
Again, probing more deeply into this story, one discovers another apparent attempt to commit massive vote fraud, sadly, again, by Democrats!
No wonder they had trouble researching and approving all the requests in time. Whole neighborhoods apparently all decided -- on the same day, apparently -- to vote absentee. How odd. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported:
Blackwell's directive seems to have been an overreaction to this kind of fraud. But yet again the point is moot because Blackwell's directive was never even implemented, meaning that all people who had failed to receive an absentee ballot in fact were allowed to vote! (How dishonest can this Conyers guy be???)
No, there were allegations of intimidation, and they were not, apparently, widespread. Writes Democrat Russ Baker:
Sadly, unspecified Democratic claims of intimidation have been hurt by a line in the Kerry/Edwards mobilization plan which advised Democratic leaders to cry wolf: "If no signs of intimidation techniques have emerged yet, launch a 'pre-emptive strike" and "Prime minority leadership" with stories of intimidation to tell. As far as the charge that Blackwell isn't investigating these charges, it seems even Ohio newspapers are having trouble tracking down even one credible charge:
Yup, that about sums it up, I'd say. Same goes for Air America.
This is absurd on the face of it: The charge itself admits these problems were due to "official registration errors" -- in a Democrat-controlled county -- not due to some evil Republican plot. It's self-refuting. I'd personally be embarassed even to make such a lame charge.
Since about 5.6 million votes were cast, this represents a spoilage rate of about 1.6%, which is about typical in many types of voting system -- sometimes people punch the wrong hole, or abstain from that category. 1 or 2 out 100 isn't a sign of dirty tricks of some sort. Further, there is no Ohio law demanding such ballots be manually "inspected" -- perhaps in order to manufacture a presidential vote where none was recorded.
Once again, here's the crucial withheld fact: these precincts were traditional bastions of Republican support, which suggests it would have been Bush voters, not Kerry supporters, who lost their votes.
This is sad to hear, but the Conyers Report again withholds relevant data to create suspicion: The director of the Mahoning county electoral board, Michael Sciortino, was -- you guessed it -- a Democrat. The mistake resulted from the decision of the board to try to make some wrongly-sized ballots work with the optical scanners they had:
As usual, three Democrats and three Republicans were the ones doing the work, and were present at all times, and part of the decision-making team. Such a technical problem is regrettable, but not part of some vast sweeping effort to purge democracy from the U-S-of-A. Read more about their technical problems here, if you're interested in facts, rather than half-witted conspiracy theories. (On The Majority Report, after they'd read these kinds of charges, they'd cry: "And nobody is looking into this!" implying it was some kind of mysterious cover-up by big media and the government, and that nobody really knew for sure how these mistakes occured. My reaction, after doing this research and finding these answers: That's bogus! There are all kinds of newspaper articles out there explaining exactly what happened in these cases. The problem seems to be simply that the explanations are mundane, or impliclate Democrats is incompetance or bad behavior.)
This charge is deceptive: Read the closing of this interview by Amy Sullivan at "Democracy Now" -- a liberal source: "The FBI agent apparently spoke with some county officials who then relayed the information to the commissioners. He actually spoke directly to Frank Young, who is quoted in the article as well." The FBI did relay such a threat to Warren County, though not directly to election board officials. The language in this charge appears carefully chosen to mislead the reader without lying outright. Regardless, the threat didn't seem to have affected the election outcome: In 2000, 28% of Warren County went for Gore. In 2004, 28% again went for Kerry. Maybe I'm just strange but I would look for a signficant difference as evidence of fraud, not having the same kind of demographics as four years ago.
For example:
Guess who these overages apparently supported? That's right: Perry County went strongly for John Kerry. Conyers carefully keeps his readers from learning that. Wouldn't want to make it look like the books were cooked in -- uh -- Democratic areas. As far as Conyer's demand to "explain" it, it's quite easy: with inadequate validation at the polls it's easy for people to vote fraudulently. Look at efforts to solve such problems and -- without exception, in my experience -- you'll find Democrats opposing the solution. Look, I'm not trying to be partisan here, but what choice have I got? I keep hearing how awful those horrible Republicans are, but when I dig into it, I keep finding evidence suggesting egresious misconduct and vote-stealing by Democrats. And yes, I disagree with some of Blackwell's decisions as well, but, as I point out, they don't seem to have had much impact.
Yes, once again Conyers brings us more evidence that manufactured votes -- if we believe they exist -- seemed to have a strong propensity to support Democratic candidates. On Air America they screamed that people weren't looking into all this, and that Democratic party leaders seemed to have abandoned efforts to probe more deeply. Gosh, I can understand why.
Even if the worst were true, these contested votes only total to several hundred. Again, against a backdrop of an 118,000 margin for Bush, that's not enough to "steal" an election.
I'm suspicous of turnouts over 100%, not under 100%. And the Conyers Report, or at least this summary, appears to by lying, as this Democratic Underground post demonstrates: the 19,000 added ballots were not all for Bush, and didn't even change the balance between Kerry and Bush when tallied. (The DU forum participants are shocked that the "discovered" ballots had the same proportion voting for Bush/Kerry as the larger sample. To them, this seems incredibly unlikely, and is near-certain proof of fraud! :-) In reality, it's the principle that "sampling" is based on: small, randomly-chosen samples should reflect the same percentage as the overall body -- in reality, we would suspect fraud only if those ballots were different, and swayed the vote one way or another.) [Update 9/21/05: This particular argument has gotten a lot of publicity since Paul Krugman repeated it in the New York Times. But it turns out this is an utter myth: The turnout for Miami County was actually only 51.6%, as demonstrated here.]
Mr. Blackwell's failure to issue specific standards for the recount contributed to a lack of uniformity in violation of both the Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clauses... Sadly, many states -- including many which went for Kerry -- fail to have consistent state-wide standards for counting provisional ballots. To allege this only hurts those in Ohio, and only minorities -- if it hurt anyone at all -- is quite a stretch, one obviously made for partisan reasons. But every charge can be made to sound more important, apparently, by claiming minorities were hurt. (What a shameful, partisan use of these people.)
MSNBC's Keith Olberman -- a liberal -- was also concerned, too. He looked into it, and couldn't find any evidence of intentional wrongdoing on Triad's part, and concluded that election officials themselves (half Democrat, half Republican) might were probably trying to avoid a tedious hand-recount -- and the Triad representative was apparently simply responding to their requests for how to avoid a hand-recount in precincts which should have been (but weren't) randomly selected on election night:
It's a rather complicated story, you're more than welcomed to read the whole thing, if hearing all the available evidence interests you. Again, this kind of behavior, on the part of the board officials, is certainly not desirable. But this is apparent evidence of laziness -- in both Democratic and Republican areas, on boards split among both parties -- not a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise Ohio's voters. ConclusionWell, sorry that was so long. The principle of evil advantage applies here: It takes just a second to make up a lie, but it takes a lot longer to refute it. A huge number of charges levelled, claims that democracy itself was stolen, yet each charge I examined was found to be half the truth, or even far less. Each story was carefully tailored so that only one part was presented to the reader -- and any facts which undermined the appearance of "vote stealing" by Republicans were kept out of the analysis -- as was overwhelming evidence of such actual instances of such behavior by Democrats. (125% registration???) Isn't "half-truth" just another word for "lie"? What I've done here can be done by anyone -- and it sure could have been done by the crack team of commentators on "The Majority Report", much less by any of the web sites promoting this nonsense. Sadly, getting to the bottom of things, and finding out if they're really true seems to take a back set to, well, "winning", or scaring people, at all costs. No wonder they don't take callers. Marcus, The article is infused with one-sided facts... The response above quotes almost entirely from liberal sources. It also provides links into the prime charge it is refuting. All a reader has to do is to click the links I provide to read the entire other side of the case. How sneaky and deceptive of me!
But the Conyers report, on the other hand, presenting half the facts (or less) and withholding the others (in what strikes me as a grossly deceptive fashion) apparently does not raise your hackles in at all nor merit your condemnation. It is as if you wandered into court, saw a defense witness showing the prosecution had misled the jury by withholding evidence, and then called him or her "biased" for revealing what had been withheld and hidden from the jury. Neat trick: if the accused doesn't respond, he's clearly guilty. And if he does respond, that also proves he is guilty. Gosh, can't let people know all the facts, can we?
Who wants to acheive legitimacy? I'm a semi-anonymous blogger -- if I wanted to achieve "legitimacy" don't you think an important step would be to reveal my identity? Instead, I want people to take my arguments on their own merits. But you clearly seem uncomfortable with that idea, thus descending into this ad hominem attack.
Well, it's at least nice to know you admit I am citing facts here. But I would gently remind you that the opportunity to cite "one-sided facts" was created by a report which left them out entirely. And again you ignore that the vast majority of those "one-sided facts" are coming from mainstream or usually liberal sources. Are my statements wrong or false? If not, then why are you upset they "refute nearly every citation" made by the Conyers report? Isn't it normally a good thing to refute half-truths by supplying the missing information?
What on earth are you talking about? Other than to state the Conyers report is deceptive (an unavoidable conclusion if any of the points I make are true), what "nastiness" am I guilty of? Cite some statement where I'm being nasty. Instead, you come here and accuse me of intellectual dishonesty, and imply I'm lying about whether I was willing to look into this issue with an open mind. And then, after having treated me this way, you have the gall to accuse me, someone you have never met before, of "nastiness"? What, is it inherantly "nasty" to provide information showing that some Democratic report omits important facts? Is that the sole basis of your charge? And, um, isn't a bit more impolite to charge someone with stealing an election, and to do so on the basis of deceptive half-truths?
But Marcus, I'd like to remind you that's a logical fallacy; my motivations have nothing to do with it. If what I'm saying is true, then the Conyers report appears to be deeply deceptive, and that's just true whether I'm a guy with a blog who was responding to Air America, or whether I'm a secretly-paid operative for the Bush administration with evil intent in his heart.
Err... now you're just getting loopy, Marcus. Please look at the above article again. The issue was framed by a liberal report which attacked others and made many serious charges about how Republicans stole an election. This report was read far and wide. I'm just one blogger, and didn't even change the argument. The "framing" I used (see the red bits) came from the report summary -- it does not originate from me in the slightest, nor did I alter it at all. Again, it is if you accused me of ten crimes, and I responded to each charge as you made it -- and then you accused me of guilt for "framing" your charges, which I had just refuted! Besides this obvious error, shouldn't the false charges also bother you a bit?
Err, I should think so. And I should think eliminating election fraud should be something we should all be concerned about. So, um, wouldn't you agree that putting out a false report about such a topic would be detrimental to that "win-win" strategy? Or is it, in your mind, "mutually beneficial" to falsely accuse people, but "unproductive" for anyone to point out the falsity of such charges? And you are accusing me of some kind of bias? Oh my.
Um, Marcus, did you even read your own accusations against me before posting this? One minute you accuse me of "rancor" and "nastiness" the next minute I am a horrible person because I am "accepting" and "academic". Please try to understand this Marcus: I am distressed at the evidence of vote fraud I discovered in doing this research. And I do strongly favor measures to reduce it, no matter who is commiting it -- measures such as observers, paper trails, and no voting without ID. But you seem to be missing something: if what I am saying above is true, it seems that Democrats are largely responsible for vote fraud in this particular incident. But no doubt you will accuse me of wrongdoing no matter what I say: If I point this out, and loudly decry it, I will be "biased". If allow the reader to come to their own conclusion, I'm guilty, according to you, of apathy. So what's your stance? Are you willing to support measures to reduce vote fraud, even if Democrats oppose them? Would you be willing to condemn who-ever perpetrates it, even if some or most of those doing it were in your own party? I'm waiting to hear your response.
No, sorry, I'm not a liar. I really am just a guy with a weblog, who happened to listen to an Air America broadcast. I don't do anything remotely resembling writing for a living, and, as I mentioned before, if I truly wanted acclaim, one of the things I'd put out there was my name. I'd also probably write more regularly, accept ads, and join a group blog. But no doubt focusing on such things, passing judgement over my motives and character, and generating such conspiracy theories provides you a way of distracting yourself from the more obvious issues being raised in the article above. After all, it's far more important to feel good about one's self and one's positions, than to actually do good, right? How annoying when someone presents us with facts to the contrary. Such people must be immediately personally savaged. Is it any wonder, as I grow older, I get the growing impression so many "liberals" are actually not-so-covert totalitarians? Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on July 31, 2005 03:22 PM Hmm. I can't believe I am writing all this for just two people, especially since I don't even know this Tim. Last time. At least I hope you are not my pal Tim incognito. Now THAT would be funny! Tim's reply to my response ironically supports my comments better than any additional commentary ever could. Period. As he says, you can stop here and skip the rest of this response… but this time after just one sentence! LOL. I welcome anyone with views on either side to comment on our dialogue here. Does anyone else read this? Love your neighbor, said the Man, first and foremost. I thought I complimented Tim's effort at the outset but I see now how that was lost (and not cited by him). My concluding words were provocative and poorly chosen; ironic (again) of me to fall into the same trap. Apologies. So let me be clear, Tim: Nice job. Well-researched. Truly helpful and informative. Thank you. I didn't intend to show an opinion on the subject at all: I objected to how Tim's diatribe was framed and written. However, my writing style does appear to be from someone generally opposed to right-leaning anecdote-supported commentary. Tim appears to sense that and continue his rage unfocused on my words. Rats. I must write better. Maybe he attacks me simply because I didn't confer agreement (that is, by not stating communion I am therefore opposed). My main message was lost on Tim: worthy results come from embracing thy enemy and seeking common ground; give a little, take a little; there is no other way. He clearly seeks to communicate and enlighten. So defending ravings and copping-out with "this is just a blog" is hypocritical and he does himself a disservice. Much of Tim's counterattack rails against content that is not from my response; it is extrapolated by him and from other content similar to mine but not mine. Did I say that I accept the findings of the Conyers Report? Did the author cite each side equally? (To make this plain, this does not mean quoting "liberal" sources.) No and no. I expected this but not quite so obtusely or obviously. Sigh. One-way communication and anonymity have so many limitations. It saddens me that many of our best and most-caring citizens, including this author: (1) accept the popular dichotomy of an issue as a means to discuss it rather than from a results-oriented framework (e.g., a for-or-against the Conyers Report setup rather than a write-up framework that is against partisan politics and election fraud); (2) further polarization unknowingly by using inflammatory words unknowingly ("I want people to take my arguments on their own merits. But you clearly seem uncomfortable with that idea, thus descending into this ad hominem attack."), and; (3) don't realize that they are in many key people-defining (and joining!) ways more similar to the ones they oppose than they are to the majority of people (e.g., your uncommon political passion makes you much like anyone with such passion, including your opposition, rather than like someone who agrees with your conclusions but doesn't really care that much). Yin-and-yang concept. Responding again, Tim, by countering my words again in the same manner serves no purpose and won't enjoin me to respond again. Instead, please go help your neighbor with his/her groceries. I should do the same! LOL. Addendum: You state: "I am distressed at the evidence of vote fraud I discovered in doing this research. And I do strongly favor measures to reduce it, no matter who is committing it; measures such as observers, paper trails, and no voting without ID. But you seem to be missing something: if what I am saying above is true, it seems that Democrats are largely responsible for vote fraud in this particular incident." Here is one of my key points: you say "no matter who is committing it" then immediately follow-up with "it seems the Democrats are largely responsible". Your common-ground statement is obfuscated with a partisan one. That is inflammatory by design even more so that it is by the words you chose. Your efficacy is lost using this structure. You lose 75% of your audience when you write this way: the half who oppose your thoughts and half of the half who actually agree with you because they see your bias with your structure and word choice. It demeans you to speak only to the "choir", as it were. More importantly, it blinds you yourself to the truth you apparently desire so much. You have good things to say. Why not be heard? Why not hear yourself? Posted by: Marcus on August 1, 2005 12:29 AM I can't believe I am writing all this for just two people... How odd. You recognize this, but seem intent on continuing to refer to me in the third person.
So what applicability do you think this has here? It is "unloving" to disagree with someone? Can't help but notice "the man" also did quite a bit of that too.
Superficially nice, but so what? It would be more relevant to address the content. Instead, you offered a long deep analysis of my alleged motivations. (For example, I learned I was a politician and professional pundit!) What does that suggest? Try to understand: I'm not fishing for compliments. I could care less whether you liked it or not, no offense, but that's simply how I feel. Do you have any content to offer, or are you simply a guy who feels the needs to offfer a poor psychological bill of health to anyone who offers a dissenting opinion?
It was "framed" by a summary I responded to, and an Air American broadcast. You seem oblivious of this, still. Note, again, the red text. As far as how it was "written", citing specific examples generally work better than vague broad assertions, such as assertions about my deep, underlying psychological motivations. Which is hilarious, considering how little you admit you know about me.
No, Steven. It wasn't your "writing style". It was the fact you scrupulously avoided addressing the content, which was obvious, and instead attempted to attack the character and psychology of the author, a strategy both fallacious and specious. Again, this makes it sound like you're simply upset by the content, and thus need to tar the messenger.
My "rage"? Too funny! One minute, my tone is woefully "accepting and academic", the next, I'm deeply into "rage"! What next, "whimsy"? And again, you're deeply focused about my (alleged) psychological state. You're truly a one-note Johnny, aren't ya? Can't help but wonder if there isn't a bit of projection going on there.
Yes, of course. So conservatives: when accused of stealing an election, do not show the charges to be false. That would show bad attitude. Of course, there's nothing worth condemning about making such accusations, is there? No nothing. Again, I have asked you about common ground. I have put to you very pointed questions about election reform, and whether you would support it even if Democrats opposed to it. And do you answer? No, you continue to avoid the question, and productive vein, even while mutting onward about my failure to "seek common ground." There is certainly a time to seek common ground. But there is also a time to defend against scurrilous charges.
Again, you're too funny! You should read yourself before you publish. One minute to try to pretend you're sincerely complimenting my writings (as if I wanted or needed that) calling them "well researched", "helpful", and "informative". In a later sentence, I am "defending ravings". Well, which is it? I'd rather have someone sincerely and openly hate me than engage in that kind of pathetic sophistry. As far as my pointing out this is simply a blog, it wasn't to "defend" my words. Apparently, I have to remind you that you accused me of being a politician, and of being paid to do this, and was simply answering your fanciful charge. Once again, the liberal throws baseless, hateful accusations and characterizations at all who disagree, and then brands his opponents (whom he claims to "love") as evasive simply because such charges are answered! Yes, how deeply loving. And what is "hypocritical" about pointing out this is a blog? Please, I await the specific about this next defamation of my character. I am a "hypocrite" because I have said that I'm an anonymous blogger, and thus not seeking "legitimacy". Please explain this next charge you level against me.
Counterattack? Hmmm... well, at least you admit you attacked me. Since it was mainly focused on refuting various things you said, and was in response to your words, looked to me like more of a "defense". But, of course, you again project.
Right. Like here, where I'm not responding to anyting even remotely said by you. To me, it looks like I'm answer your very words. How deluded I am, apparently.
Talk about responding to things not said. Did I *say* you accepted the Conyers report?
Each "side"? Listen to yourself. My sources were mainly liberal. And what crime is there in responding by citing facts which disagree with the thesis? It's called a "debate", and it's an important part of how we make progress in learning. Of course, it's funny, because I'm apparently guilty for not citing the Conyers report in exact equal proportion to those who offer information undermine it's assertions. But does the Conyers report merit such condemnation from you, being even more unbalanced? Apparently not. Not worth mentioning a word against, whereas I warrant serious browbeating. So I can see how seriously you take such criteria.
There is a season for everything. Sometimes, it's good to write about fraud in general. Other times, specifics must be address. But according to you, when attacked, people should not defend specific attacks. At least conservatives. But, as pointed out before, you appear, by your lack of similar condemnation, to have no similar problems with the initial baseless attack. This, and I will use the word now carefully, appears to be gross hypocrisy, being apparently deeply concerned about a small violation, but wandering blithely past a much larger one.
Yes, I am a fool. I thought you might consider my words last time. Instead, as with the initial post, you ignored every last one, addressing none. Did you pick up the olive branch on fighting fraud in elections? No! You simply wandered past it and excoriated me for not seeking common ground! Dude, you are too funny. Good luck with all that... Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on August 2, 2005 09:28 AM Is O'Reilly your hero? You are inflamed, dear Tim. Calm down. The other kids will stop needling you when you learn not to blow-up. Your writing does not reveal your thinking and you? Huh? You always focus on the text and pass no comments on the author? Hello! I feel like a grandpa talking to a whippersnapper. Like O'Reilly, you similarly state unsubstantiated supporting data as facts yet become righteous and belligerent when you think the other side has done it. One result of this technique raised to actual decisions and actions: both camps "know" they are right, each has equal "facts" that equally refute the other side, anyone listening has tons of equally refuted information but no knowledge, no true compromise or learning takes place, only power yields a result, losers figuratively and literally have no stake in the outcome, and gloating/dictating and anger/revenge rule the day. That is not the world in which you talk? It sure is (except, as you state, you are an impotent bystander, by choice, to the actual process and results). Look at our dialogue. The same. But, of course, that is none of your doing. You are rationale and fair. Why few citations? Your nitpicking is productive? My assessments cover all of your writing more than just one line. Citations would just yield clutter. Anyone looking at this forest can see the trees. Your citations do not assist your assertions. And they, by definition, create one-way communication going in opposite directions. You never leave the "two camps" and "ships passing in the night" stage. Same views as O'Reilly too. Your style might be the same as one of the zillions (sic) of liberal pundits out there, but can't think of any as blind. Like O'Reilly, your "style" is similarly purposefully and unwittingly inflammatory. You consistently misquote by de-contextualizing references, pinpoint only what you choose to attack rendering the argument incomplete, and apply views to your "adversary" that have not been stated. It's a an effective style for O'Reilly et al and politicians too, which is why I commented tongue-in-cheek as such (That was an accusation? Please!). You get defensive and loud, act like you've been wronged, and then wildly mix obvious truths and contentious opinions together to make them all seem valid to the choir. It's a style that tacitly attributes the opposite of the statement to the other source. It's just bad communication. It's the same style as: "Yes or No: Are you still beating your kids?". You rail against what you do the same, oblivious. As I said, we are two ships in the night: the gist of my responses critiqued *how* you responded not the subject matter. It was never about the Conyers Report. How did you miss that? If that bothers you then why enjoin the repartee? And keep complaining? Gotcha there. (Oh, sorry, no one ever gets you. Oh, sorry again, I mean your *writing*, because of course no one reading any of your words "knows" you). Maybe move the content to a new topic entitled "Random Observations under fire for mean-spiritedness and illogic". Does anybody who disagrees with Reilly have the stomach to listen to him? A few maybe. Does he dialogue with anybody with opposing views? Do you? So far, you haven't with me. Passing ships, dude. Maybe the next time you will accept what I have chosen to talk about and say something relevant. Hint: It's not about the Conyers Report. Lastly, if you will, please address me consistently by the name I have provided. It's a basic element of communication. Reference lessons learned in kindergarten for help. LOL. Your mocking style is contagious, it seems. Posted by: Marcus on August 2, 2005 03:26 PM Is O'Reilly your hero? Huh? No, I've only seen him once or twice and don't like him much. I don't even watch TV.
I am inflamed now? Again, I thought I was too academic and dispassionate. Do you have always have this difficulty in deciding exactly which claim to make against your opponent? Doesn't matter -- either way, it just goes to show what kind of emotional problems your opponent has. :-)
You seem to be putting words in my mouth again.
I "become righteous"? No, I'm simply pointing out you were, and apparently still are, absolutely fixated on attempting to psychoanalyze me rather than address the content of the article. It's very interstesting to watch. You're welcomed to claim I'm citing "unsubstantiated supporting data" -- but your argument would probably be a bit more effective if you'd cite which "data" above is supposedly "unsupported."
It sounds like you're arguing there is no such concept as "truth" to be found, only equal, and undeciable narratives. I see things differently. Though our knowledge will always be imperfect, I think it's possible to do research, keep an open mind, and learn things.
You assessment doesn't touch on a single assertion made, nor seem to even try. Odd, since you agreed to do exactly that when you posted here. Instead, your response clearly attempts to access, categorize, and judge the character and the psyche behind the article. As best as I can see, you seem to be firing at random, frequently landing wide of the mark.
LOL! Yes, of course. Citing facts would just "clutter" up the discussion of the real topic -- how much you can teach me about my emotional inferiority and psychological hang-ups! And we wouldn't want to clutter up your terse, concise writing style with anything so vulgar as citations of fact!
So, when someone points out election officials "disenfranchised minorities", and I point out the officials were in fact Democrats, and quote said officials admitting they were Democrats and did no such thing -- that does NOTHING to forward my assertion, according to you? Fascinating. So -- just speaking hypothetically --how WOULD someone back up some point, in text? If citing things cannot forward arguments, from your point of view, it would seem inherantly impossible for you to learn. Whether or not you speak for others, you are certainly telling us about yourself here.
"One-way communication going in opposite directions?" Err, that's a good one. I think that process is called "dialog". It's where you say something, I answer you, while you continue to ignore my various requests, such as to talk about the content of the article above, or answer any of the questions I put to you.
Really? The few times I've mentioned O'Reilly on this blog, it's always been to disagree with him. Besides those few reported quotes, I don't know his views: I don't watch his show.
"Think of any as blind?" Why are you focused on how I think about "liberal pundits"? You seem practically obsessed with me. And this O'Reilly guy as well. Many liberals I think of -- you, for example -- seem to have "the deficiencies of anyone who disagrees with me" as their favorite theme. For example, here's a guy (you) who was Googling for the Conyers Report, reads a single contradictory opinion -- and goes non-linear, spouting off about the author's career in politics and desire for legimacy! Suddenly, he has no interest at all in the very report which brought him here. No, suddenly, there it is time to expose the bad character, failings (etc) of the bear of inconvenient factual tidings.
Dude, you are TOO GOOD. C'mon, admit it: You're not really a liberal. You're a die-hard conservative, trying to make liberals look bad by doing a bad parody of one, right? "Purposefully AND unwittingly inflammatory"? Omigosh, I couldn't have dreamed that one up if I'd tried. It's an intelligently stupid remark, one that's insightfully blithe! :-) Of course, I'm aware writing this article was inflammatory. To the left "inflammatory" simply means anyone who speaks a differing opinion, even if they initially claim the tone is "academic and accepting"! I'm rather used to being personally attacked each time I dare disagree with the left in public: The usual approach is for a person with such inclinations to log onto my blog, and use the "one way" forum I provide them to attempt to describe my various psychological deficiencies, deep-seated hatred of everyone, social awkwardness, stupidity, hatred for the poor, childishnes, etc, etc, etc. In general, they do everything except refute (or even address!) the inconvenient evidence, evidence that I must be punished and degraded for having dared to present. So, like I said, you're either just another such a specimen, or a conservative playing a stupid (and rather unfair) joke against liberals. But there's nothing novel about the tact you're taking here: I've get it: I'm an inferior human being in many ways, and you're here trying to help me (without, of course, pointing out any specific mistakes, much leess giving any specific improvements) -- apparently by telling me about my many congential deficiencies AND my deliberate closed-mindedness and unwillingness to learn your many important, vague, and unspecified lessons -- which seem to boil down to again pointing out my many deficiencies, both constitutional and volitional. Right! Got it! Message received!
If I "consistently" do so, you might be able to cite at least one "misquote" from the article above. Or is you method of argumentation simply to make claims and never back them up? I mean, I'm more than willing to stop this "misquoting", but I'm unaware I'm even doing it, much less "consistently". So, if you're going to help me with this, I'll need for you to show an example, and then explain how I SHOULD have done it correctly. Okay? Will you do this?
Again, to me, it looks as if I've addressed every single argument offered in the report summary -- and that I didn't even skip one. So it's hard, given that this is my view, for me to understand where I went wrong here, again. Could you please help me by pointing out an important or powerful argument offered in the Conyers Report summary which I dishonestly omitted in order to make my response look more plausable?
Loud? In text? "Defensive" is what certain angry people call you when you actually ANSWER their many attacks. Of course, they are being mature and helpful when they attack you in various ways -- you know, talk about your inner hatreds and small-mindedness -- but you musn't actually respond said attacks. Then you are clearly "losing" (and a loser!) because you are being "defensive". ;-)
Really? Give one example of such a false-choice question I've posed. Or is this yet another argument which is so true that it doesn't need any pesky evidence to back it up? Here, I can give you such an example: Look at this very assertion. You claim I am engaged in rhetorical dishonesty here, framing questions so there is no possible right answer. That I want to view "A" and "not A" as wrong, my oponent is "damn if he does, and damned if he doesn't." But what technique have you demonstrated? I can't help but notice that you attack me both for supposedly being emotional and also for being "academic and accepting." So either disposition is wrong in your eyes. And again, you claim both I am not listening to your attacks -- we are "two ships passing in the night" -- but also complain I am being "defensive" -- i.e. that I am actually responding to your attacks. So acknowledging and answering your attacks is clearly wrong, but ignoring your charges would also clearly show how wrong I am. So what have we here? Well, if I had to guess, I'd say you're aware, at least at some level, that you're willing to use these kinds of below-the-belt tactics. Certainly, I've pointed it out in previous responses. So, since I've pointed out you're doing something bad and unfair, I apparently must share your fault, lest I be (in your eyes) your equal, or perhaps even be found lacking some fault you manifest. So you must project your behavior, and tactics upon me -- even if you can't find an example of me doing such a thing. Not because there's evidence that I do such things, but because you NEED to see me as doing such things: I must share all your faults, and you, yourself manifest clear a fondness for these kinds of no-win attacks.
Speak for yourself. I'm trying to engage you in a discussion about the facts. You seem clearly uninterested in such. You complain people will not "learn". Again, I cannot see how such complaints are anything but projection.
Right. I got that from square one. Please note that I pointed that out in my initial response. I hear you on this point... You are admitting you have offered NO valid disagreement about the content, and you are agreeing with my assertion that you are, apparently, obsessed with trying to access, characterize, analyize, and, quite clearly, pronounce deeply inferior my inner thought life. Now, what's so fascinating about this is the question of WHY. Why does such a person read something they disagree with and, instead of attempting to learn something, or refute it, become obsessed with degrading the person who wrote it? What drives a person to such an odd, dysfunctional, unproductive modus operandi? Inferiority? Narcisism? A bit of both? Something else?
Again, I didn't miss it, I noted it. Repeatedly, almost ad nasuem. It has been the principal content of each response to you. Now, here's an even better question: How did you miss THAT?
I have been asking myself the same question. Initially, I had hoped that I might bring you around, to attempt to get you to follow the very simple rules for comments you implicitly agreed to when you posted here. And that's the reason for my initial response: it seemed more merciful than just deleting your comment. I guess, partly, I also hate to delete people's comments, even those who so flagrantly ignore the rules. I feel a bit of a bully when I do that, though I probably should, just for consistency. I like to give second chances. I feel I've "cheated" when I nuke the comment of some yutz who's so inconsiderate he can't even follow a few simple rules I ask my guests here to abide by when they comment. But now I'm simply fascinated, and wondering what you'll say next. Leftist psychology has always fascinated me: What is it that compels some to attack and contemptously dress down everyone who presents inconvenient information? Why do they respond with nothing but emotion, anger, condescention, and contempt? What psychological need drives them to behave in a way which utterly prevents learning and alienates potential allies? Sometimes, as noted above, they give you clues in their own words. For example, when I am attacked as "unintelligent", I hear a person telling me that they perhaps are sensitive about their own level of intelligence -- they're clearly expressing this is an important value for them. When a person focuses on my imagined views of sex, when the topic has not even come up, I conclude they are actually telling me how they need to see me in that particular area. So I'm now watching how you respond to see what I can learn. I won't learn a huge amount, but I'm hoping over time that I'll understand this mode of operation better. For example, initially, you seemed to think I was obsessed with "legitimacy". I could care less and even the most casual readers should notice it! But you were clearly showing SOMEONE here thinks a lot about "legitimacy". ;-) So I'm guessing that's important to you. This time, apparently, you think I watch or care about O'Reilly. So I'm guessing you have some strange hangup about this fellow, and need to see me in the same mold. Indeed, like many of my left-leaning visitors, you seem to have developed a positive fixation on my alleged mental state and outlook. Likewise, you frequently complain I'm not hearing you, but it seems the reverse is true. (I quote almost all your statements and respond to almost all your assertions; you respond to almost none of mine.) So perhaps we are ships passing in the night: In general, I'd like to have an interesting discussion about the facts, learn if I'm wrong, or overlooked something. If I keep my promise to myself, and keep my mind open and admit when I'm clearly wrong, I could benefit from this (and have often in the past) by learning and changing my views. So that's why I allow comments here. And now, seeing no apparent possibility of such a dialog, I'm simply writing back to see what you'll do next. So why the other way around? Unlike me, who at least once hoped to have a productive conservation, and still hopes to learn something (albeit different than before), you claim there is no possibility of dialog or learning. So you're certainly speaking to your own outlook, whether or not you're getting mine right. So here you also are, yet, unlike me, having a dialog with a person you openly claim you cannot, or perhaps merely will not, benefit from, and claim you cannot possibly benefit (due to one of my many psychological or constitutional deficiencies). So why do you do this? I sure don't know! Perhaps you could just tell me. In view of my many failings, perhaps you could state it succinctly, in short sentences and simple words. Unlike you, given how you apparently view me and how well you seem to claim you know me, I'm still in the data-gathering stage. Unlike you, I don't claim to have had my opponent entirely sorted out from very first comment, his deepest thoughts and motivations (such as my alleged deep "desire for legitimacy"!) exposed to my naked view, like a frog on a dissecting table. I know about the "projection" bit, because, in my experience, liberals project like crazy (for some odd reason, they can't help it), but the rest is still a mystery.
Ach, now I'm illogical. On what point? Oh yes, can't dignify your response with, uh, specifics. I am illogical, but can't be told where or how, lest I learn and correct any of my many erroneous ways. And now, I am also "mean-spirited", too -- again, we see my failings of character. Why am I mean-spirited? Which horrible, unfounded and defamatory accusations do I level against you? Did I, for example, degrade your character and soul by calling you 'mean-spirited'? That would be awful of me to do, wouldn't it? :-) And imagine I said you were the kind of dweeb who other kids picked on. That would be pretty mean of me too, wouldn't it? Right. Can you say "projection"? I knew you could. What is it John Ray says? "Why are Leftists always talking about hate? Because it fills their own hearts." I'd say he was right on this mark, Marcus. How are you feeling towards me now? Boiling over with rage, I'd guess.
Smug. Condescending. Well noted. Yes, of course: Children are taught, in kindergarten, that when a person posts an e-mail address on your blog containing "Steven" and "Marcus" as his names, and then puts the word "Marcus" in the other blank, that you are NOT ALLOWED to use that information. And I thus do not have the education nor manners of a kindergartner: because I inadverantly exposed something Marcus apparently wanted hidden, I must again be attacked as immature. A simple request, without the optional snub, would be insufficient. Noted. So here's another little lesson to consider: You are a guest here. You agreed abide to the comment rules when you posted here. If you cannot, you will be asked to leave. Another little something to learn is that if you don't want someone to mention one of your names, (a) don't provide it to them, (b) simply ask them politely not to do so. When you wrote and asked me to remove your e-mail address, I did so immediately and wished to you well, despite the bitter and angry tone of your comments. Had you have asked in a similarly polite fashion to remove the mention of the name you wished to hide, I would gladly have done so. A kind word gets you much further than a condescending insult. And you should live up to your agreements, which you so far have not. Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on August 26, 2005 11:41 PM Please remove my name from your site. I've read your latest comments once just now. I do not wish to engage anymore. Thank you. Posted by: VoicesCarry on October 12, 2005 02:23 PM Add your two cents...
The comment rules will apply. Please post only once. |
From a first-timer who googled there way in here.
Everyone has bias. Most of us have roots we strongly support when those roots are attacked. Leaders exploit and support their constuencies and beliefs to become and stay leaders.
This Conyers Report response is an appropriate counter-balance to information weighed-down by those pretenses. It helps citizens in search of "truth". It clearly is biased.
However, the author ironically meets the enemy and it is he. He achieves no legitimacy.
The article is infused with one-sided facts and refutes nearly every citation. As any parent knows, when a child blames another and speaks only of innocense, you only really know one thing: you are not getting the truth.
The article is written and summarized with rancor and one-sided views; clearly, conclusions were drawn before truth was sought. The nastiness yields hate; that helps... what? The cart-before-horse anti-logic is what produced the Edsel.
The author clearly frames the issue as an argument and seeks to win it. The goal is win-lose rather than win-win. Aren't we all in this together?...
But that is not its most blind and egregious error: it misses the point. We the people are unable to hold fair elections, allow stakeholders to define, deliver, and verify the stake, and accept this crap.
Shouldn't we all be angry about that? The author isn't; he's accepting and academic. At least the heart of the report is in the right place; it is absent in this response.
This writing seems like it's from a pundit out to achieve acclaim, feed a constinuency, and make money by keeping the yakking afloat. Must be written by a politician.
Now I'll take a look and see where I landed...
Posted by: Marcus on July 31, 2005 02:38 AM