I'm so sorry...Pray for them...show them resources like http://www.webraw.com/quixtar or http://quixtardemons.blogspot.com

Tell them the income lifestyle they're being shown comes mainly from the money they make off cds and seminars...and show them the information to back it up (http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/wwdb/kosage/dean_reply_declaration.pdf)
Theres a signed court document from a now Executive Diamond Dean Kosage, who at the time of emerald, claimed almost 50% of his income came from the motivational organization.

Show them http://www.quixtarwiki.com too

There is nothing you can tell your friend to get her out of this scam. She needs to find out for herself what a scam this is. Tell her to research the valuable info on the internet from people who also once believed in this. When she does finally discover this scam she will need a friend like you around for comfort.

I am sorry about your friend, but I have to say that even before I became involved in quixtar I listened to a tape called psychology for achievers and it talks about how to surround yourself with positive people. I do not go to my upline for every question. For some reason your friend as decided to change his/her life and feels it necessary to do what she is doing. I have not left my friends even the ones that were negative before I entered quixtar. In fact, this friend told me if anyone could make it work it would be me. It isn't easy finding people who even have goals or dreams today. I get no money for signing people up. My bonus is increased by their purchases just like if I were to own a store and they would shop there. Go to thisbiznow.com and see why many large corporations like Barnes and Noble partner with Quixtar. Amazon.com is an online mall. Why can't Quixtar do it with out being compared to Amway's old business plan?

The best thing you can do is tell her she can do it. And believe in her who says she cant build it obviously alot of us have done it she can too. Tell her to be smart dont go in debt to build it. do it 100% without quitting her day job be the possitive friend if she gives up it wont be you her so called friend that was the one who didnt believe in her.

It just shocks me -- testimony from the very mouths of pro-Quixtar people, as to how emotionally manipulative this whole thing is.

For example, consider this comment:

The best thing you can do is tell her she can do it. And believe in her who says she cant build it.... be the possitive friend if she gives up it wont be you her so called friend that was the one who didnt believe in her.

The question is, of course, whether to believe in QUIXTAR or not. Does QUIXTAR work? Does QUIXTAR pay a decent return, on average, for the time invested? How does QUIXTAR compare with all the other things one can do to earn money?

But, rather than pursue that very simple, reasonable question to its conclusion, the question is deflected to believing in YOUR FRIEND. If you don't support QUIXTAR, then, of course, you don't support YOUR FRIEND. To suggest "negative" things about QUIXTAR, is, of course, to say negative things about a friend. To not believe in QUIXTAR is tantamount to betraying YOUR FRIEND.

The ego is held hostage to the cult. The best thing is NOT, of course, to try to figure out what's best for your friend. No, the BEST THING IN THE WORLD is to blindly support Quixtar, and ask NO QUESTIONS about whether it works or not.

THAT, my readers, is TRUE LOVE for your friend.

Josie,

Why can't Quixtar do it with out being compared to Amway's old business plan?

Quixtar IS Amway's old business plan. Only the name of the company, method of placing orders, and types of product have changed. The basic mechanisms are the same.

What also needs to be kept in mind in addition to having to replace the 66% who quit. If you
"walk away" thinking you'll keep getting those checks in the mail, you're wrong!

You will also need to make arrangements, including compensation, to have another IBO provide service to your personal group.

It's why diamonds never walk away from their business, they can't afford to.

All new IBOs, please read and look at yourselves
neutrally.

I was an IBO and I know my sponsor is still active after 13 years. He was a platinum and was not making much money. He continues to dedicate his life to the business. His downline (including myself at one time) lost a lot fo money. I saw couples who lost their homes because they skipped house payments to attend major functions, they went bankrupt, couples broke up over the business.

Does your upline promote tools? If they do, please beware as the tools is a secondary but very lucrative business for the upline diamonds.

Tax court decisions involving Amway/Quixtar IBOs/distributors over the years have been devastatingly consistent in concluding that IBOs/distributors failed to prove intent to make a profit.

Tax court viewed every one of these businesses (in the half dozen decisions I've read so far, out of 8 total, I think) as a hobby for personal pleasure and DENIED most of their claimed tax deductions.

I wonder if these tax court decisions would be viewed as helpful by IBOs, or at least that they might be open to looking them over as rock-solid examples of how NOT to run a Quixtar business.

You can look up every relevant case by keyword (Amway or Quixtar, which the court views as the same entity) and year, in the tax court's online database:

http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/UstcInOp/asp/HistoricOptions.asp

Tax court consistently throws in the firmly held view that upline advice for how to run an independent business is not adequate as the business advice that a normal, prudent person would seek if they truly intended to make a profit. You've got to go to an expert outside the system and take their advice seriously.

In one of the cases, tax court explains why: upline IBO makes money based on movement of product by those downline. That the downline is in the red or the black is completely irrelevant to upline's income as long as downlines continue to consume products and teach others to do the same. In fact, if it means more product is consumed, in-the-red status might be preferable.

These tax court decisions make very clear that whatever uplines might say about having to help others succeed in order to succeed oneself, it's just not true in the Quixtar setting.

These decisions are people's stories, and I found them remarkably readable. (But then again, I dig research.)

Incidentally, most of the people in these cases (previous post) kept very careful and accurate records substantiating their expenses.

Which is probably why they thought they could successfully challenge the IRS.

These make fascinating reading for anyone starting a business, in fact, not just IBOs. Good to know what the U.S. tax court sees as conducting business in a business-like manner.

Okay,

I pulled up 19 U.S. tax court decisions (see my posts directly above) from 1999-2006 that contain the word Amway or Quixtar.

Not all are relevant, because some people challenging the IRS were not actually with A or Q (Some mention A or Q for comparison.), or because the case was primarily about some other business also being operated.

But in the ones that are relevant, NO A/Q IBO SUCCEEDED IN THEIR CHALLENGE.

The only guy who proved intent to make a profit was operating similar direct marketing businesses but was not in A or Q. What he did right was to analyze, evaluate, actually change tactics in the attempt to make some money and DISCARD the business if it did not produce results for him. Dwarshak, 2004, for those who are interested.

Decisions which specifically mention the inadequacy of upline advice are:

Ogden, 1999, pg. 8
Nissley, 2000, pg. 16
Meyer, 2001, pg. 17-18

Landrum, 2001, pg. 11 (top), 12 (bottom), 13 (top) This one includes a nice story about an emerald upline (and friend!) who promised a large income after 3 months of spending $500/mo on tools, effectively demonstrating his lack of need to help the Landrum's succeed before he made money from them.

Lopez, 2003, pg. 13
Guadagno, 2003, pg. 11
Ollet, 2004, pg. 11-12

The only IBO who claimed to make a profit did not deduct anything besides cost of goods sold. Friscia, 2000, pg.8

A couple of the profit-less, even while losing in tax court, were still declaring their total dedication to A/Q - they'll spend whatever it takes.

I'm sorry to hear that another person has commited to this cult like scam. I have been to a few different meetings of their's and was told to drop out of college and use all my money to help "The Team." This man clamed he was rich, was dressed in a nice suite, and well groomed. Which was really funny because a week later the man who was preaching this to me, I later found serving people food at a local resterant. Then a week later I saw him AGAIN at another place. When approched he said nothing. What a joke. Sadly to say a few of my friends are part of this scam as well. Now when i see them or hear from them they want me to join as well. So I can definetely relate in your frustrations!!!

Mary, sadly, they teach you to fake it till you make it. Show the image of wealth to sell the dream........

Quixtar is an amazing thing im 22 i have put 3 years into it while attending a full time job at the local mill i am now making 5 grand a month and i dont work anymore i focus on this and now its unstoppable i recomeng this to people who want to be finacialy free you either want it or you dont. YOu can do whatever you put your mind to it. Ask yourself one question.

When you were in highschool and they gave you the magic marker and asked what you want to have and be in 10 years , are you what you want?. how many of you put i wanna be making minimum wage doing what i dont love. Quixtar is handing you back that magic marker

Ryan, how many of your downline are profiting? I bet most of them are losing money if they are on the teaching system.

Ryan,

I'd *love* to hear the details of how you're making that "5 grand a month". Like: how many downlines do you have? How many people do you talk to weekly? How much PV/BV are you earning? How much time do you spend? And what are your expenses?

And how is it that you're allegedly making so much in a business that nets the average active participant, by its own admission, a mere $115 per month before expenses?

Inquiring minds want to know, I'm sure.

Claims are easy to make. Watch:

"Hey everyone! I'm making 50 grand a month! And all I do is sit at home and watch TV!"

Wasn't that impressive? Wow! Anyone can do it.

Why do so many IBOs "hit and run" with their comments?

Mary said: I'm sorry to hear that another person has commited to this cult like scam. I have been to a few different meetings of their's and was told to drop out of college and use all my money to help "The Team." This man clamed he was rich, was dressed in a nice suite, and well groomed. Which was really funny because a week later the man who was preaching this to me, I later found serving people food at a local resterant. Then a week later I saw him AGAIN at another place. When approched he said nothing. What a joke. Sadly to say a few of my friends are part of this scam as well. Now when i see them or hear from them they want me to join as well. So I can definetely relate in your frustrations!!!

Joe says: This post says a lot!

I just wanted to share my personal experience with Quixstar. My very best friend of 7 years joined and soon after that I started to see a drastic change in her. I really see a lot of the cult like behavior that other posters talk about. I have seen first hand the isolation from family and friends and the extreme "lovebombing" behaviors that others in her group display. She goes to her "mentor" for anything and everything. "Oh I need to ask Shawn about that", is what I hear from her daily. Not just questions about "the bussiness" but every day life. I am literally losing my best friend because I am seen as a "negative person". Any one ever tried to get their friend/family out of this cult? Help I need advice please. Thanks.
- Melissa

Joe says: Sadly, this is what IBOs are taught by their awesome upline. The only thing you can do is be supportive and try to point out holes in uplines teachings and hope your friend wakes up out of their coma like trance.

Ryan: Quixtar is an amazing thing im 22 i have put 3 years into it while attending a full time job at the local mill i am now making 5 grand a month and i dont work anymore i focus on this and now its unstoppable i recomeng this to people who want to be finacialy free you either want it or you dont. YOu can do whatever you put your mind to it. Ask yourself one question.

When you were in highschool and they gave you the magic marker and asked what you want to have and be in 10 years , are you what you want?. how many of you put i wanna be making minimum wage doing what i dont love. Quixtar is handing you back that magic marker

Joe: Amazing, with all that free time you have, why didn't you answer Tim's question?

Mellisa, So sorry to hear that your friend has been sucked into the Quixtar cult. I have gone through this phase myself and have seen my best friends drifting away from us into Quixtar. You can only show her the facts about average IBO income, the brainwashing, the cult tactics, the number of precious hours she would be sacrificing to build her business. You can show her that if she puts the same amount of hardwork in her professional life or on some other business, the chances of earning million $$$ are greater outside of Quixtar.

If your friend does'nt heed your advice, then don't get disappointed and don't leave your friend. You need to stay in touch with her, but never talk about the Quixtar again. Refrain from that topic with your friend. If you leave your friend now, she will dig herself deeper into the Quixtar Cult and thats what the uplines want (To cut off all the support structure of their downlines and make them dependent on the Quxitar's System).

One day, your friend will realize her mistake and come back, thats when She would need your support more than ever.

Ryan: Quixtar is an amazing thing im 22 i have put 3 years into it while attending a full time job at the local mill i am now making 5 grand a month and i dont work anymore i focus on this and now its unstoppable i recomeng this to people who want to be finacialy free you either want it or you dont. YOu can do whatever you put your mind to it. Ask yourself one question.

Kicked: Ryan, If you have so much free time, why dont you answer Tim's Questions and enlighten us about your business, the way you have been doing it, apparently you seem to be very successful in Quixtar!!!!

We all want to know how many tapes you listen to, how many hours you spend in contacting, showing the plan, open meetings, functions, seminars etc. How much do you retail??? Please enlighten us, SIR. We would like to follow your footsteps!!!!

OR Do you have to consult your upline before typing ur answers????

Wow: Tapespeak is pathetic. Paragraphs and paragraphs of incoherant tapespeak, and didn't refute even a SINGLE point made here.

How sad!

Brainwashing doesn't happen? Really! Then how come y'all can't read and respond to arguments I and other people have made against your business? Nothing you've said in your long and pointless blurb refutes anything written here. You can't even take five minutes and learn what critics are trying to warn you about -- you just parrot words your upline told you to say, which has nothing to do with the real criticisms being offered.

Amazingly, she even posts evidence that's she's in a huge loser of a business, but apparently she's so far gone that she can't even *think* about what she's written:

THere are quotes out there that say "Average income is $1500/yr" Well that is correct for the average person, and average people quit everything they start.

That's the average active IBO -- not the average person. (The average person can at least figure out that's a pathetically low expected return on income -- far below minimum wage -- and stay away.)

And her admission is that they're not making "above average" yet: they'll have to STAY WITH IT to start making as much as a normal job, someday, prove us all wrong. How touchingly sad.

No brainwashing? Oh my! You couldn't keep ME in a sub-minimum wage job with a promise that two more years later I might actually start doing as well as I have in the normal jobs everyone else has.

I've seen your story before, my anonymous friend. I have a friend who did this for over five years, and was quite the success story. She signed up easily over five hundred downlines.

She's now deeply in debt, living in her parents' basement, is now suffering from MS -- and has no health insurance because she thought "Quixtar" would be her salvation rather than a regular job.

She wasn't a "quitter", you understand. Oh no: not her. She rode it through until the bitter end. She was so sure she was "above average" -- yet she didn't take the time to find out that even the "above average" don't make what a normal job can.

But you don't want to learn, so all I can say is that I hope you're utterly unsuccessful at signing people up -- since you already admit that the vast majority of them won't even make minimum wage and will quit, losing months and years of time, and lots and lots of expenses.

Can't you see the immorality of what you JUST ADMITTED you're doing? You sign people up, knowing that at least HALF won't even make the average wage you just quoted -- which is a pathetic number.

You ever tell them that? You ever ADMIT that to them? You ever explain to them that about 90% of them will make more over five years if they work at McDonald's? OR don't you CARE about how you screw people over? I know: you'll just tell them LATER what their odds were. Can't let them know up front, since it dissuade them from signing up and consuming all those points you need -- being honest with them might cut into your DREAMS of the good life.

Dreams which, I assure you, you will not achieve this way.

Have a happy life. When you realize you've had it, and are deeply in debt, remember what you did to everyone who trusted you.

You *will* think back to this conversation.

I never said that I know people won't make it.

Yes, actually, you did, when you admitted that you understood that the average "income" was only $1,500 per year. (That, and many amounts above it, are less than minimum wage.) And when you admitted that those average and below will quit -- that's well over 50%.

You just attested that you believed these things. Hence you have the facts at your disposal to show you, if you cared to think about your impact on others, that you are luring people into something which for most of them will be a worse offer than a minimum wage job.

I encourage you to take a look at your job's statistics:layoffs, outsuorcing etc.

And I encourage you to take a hard look at the "financial security" you think you're getting by encouraging people to work, on average for about $2.37 an hour -- BEFORE expenses.

(IBOs are so brainwashed! They dwell endlessly on the possibility a normal job could end up badly -- and NEVER ask, at all, for what guarantees they're getting from Quixtar! It never crosses their mind to even ask what the evidence is. Instead, doggedly ignore evidence of a poor payout (sub-minimum wages!), high turnover (66% anuually!), and phenomenally bad odds (only 1 in 200 will make even a pathetic $24K a year!) by personally insulting anyone who tries to save them -- and others -- from their blind greed...)

If you think you're secure, I wish you the best of luck. I hope for your sake your life doesn't keep turning out as pathetic as it sounds.

"Secure"? Where did you get the idea such a thing existed? Read your bible: nobody's secure. But you're doing better when you make more money and spending less.

Sadly, I'm fairly sure I make several times your income at the moment (and am living on far less). But thanks for the pity.

And let me tell you my friend, I'm sorry about your friend, but she made the decision to go in debt, noone forced her or me.

And no-one is forcing you to stay with Quixtar for two more years, as you have promised you will.

I have never put one cent on a credit card.

Well, I admire someone who's never used a credit card ever before in their life. Are you Amish? Truly exceptional in this regard? Or just exaggerating?

Regardless, will you promise me you'll stop the moment your income from this drops below your total expenses? Or that an impossible promise to make because you're there already?

I dare you to answer me.

Quixtar doesn't give people MS or take away their health insurance.

No, but it convinces people they'll find "security" in it -- as you just insisted, for example -- and can thus lull them into not taking the normal steps people should take -- like getting a real career, and sticking with one's daytime job, which offers insurance.

I assure you, this is a true story, sadly. It would be much better for her if it really were a delusion.

But IBOs typically cheer when someone tells them that in two years they'll be rolling in it -- no proof offered -- but are utterly skeptical when someone tells them a true story which even matches with the statistics they themselves can look up.

What, do you think I'm going to make $$$ from telling you these things? You have such a motive here, but I do not. I'm simply telling you the truth, and trying to warn you.

But you will scurry away because it bothers you to have your conscience challenged in this way.

Anyway, does the average person make $1500/yr? YES and you wouldn't even make that because you are below average and probably wouldn't be able to make it work.

THINK, my cowardly anonymous friend, THINK.

That's the average for EVERYONE you sign up. Not the average for the population as a whole. That means that even if you DO make those 6-7 figure salaries you imagine (wrongly) are dangling in front of you, you will do it by shuttling most people into a losing proposition.

Is it moral to become a millionaire if you did it by encouraging more than HALF the people you to make only $1.5K per yer instead of the bigger income they could have had from a retail job?

Right: you're willing to do this to people because you believe it will make you rich.

My friend, since you're fixated on these phrases and keep repeating them, I'm going to have to be uncharacteristically blunt: I'm above average. I score in the smaller upper top corners of pretty much every standardized intelligence test you'd like to throw at me. So why do you think I'm here warning people about this?

Because, frankly, I feel a moral obligation to do so. You don't have to listen -- you're free to do anything you want. But it would be to your benefit to stop and think a bit here, and seriously consider the evidence sitting right in front of you.

None of that means a thing to me: I don't sit around and take pride in being "above average", which you seem to think would be some big important thing. In God's eyes, it's garbage: what ultimately counts is our moral choices.

I'm also sorry you don't have any dreams of the good life. It sounds like what you wrote me your dreams have been shattered in the past.

Omigosh. You're entirely delusional. My "dreams have been shattered in the past"? Where on earth are you getting this from, your upline?

You're just not getting this, are you? This isn't about my level of happiness. (Though, frankly, I have an embarassingly good and fortunate life for which I'm deeply grateful.) This is about $1.5K per year for the average IBO, and what that means.

Me? I have two separate businesses. One makes money without me putting almost any time into it. In other, I'm helping change the way the financial industry does business. I have a wonderful girlfriend, and spend many of my winter weekends skiing at Vail or another resort.

And I've been rich, poor, and all over the spectrum, and enjoyed all of it.

People who know me can attest this is all, in fact, true. But utterly irrelevant to the average return you can expect from what you're doing. Which you apparently refuse to think seriously about.

I also don't see how companies like Barnes & Noble, Office Max, Dick's, Nike, Addidas, Panasonic, and hundreds more would risk their reputation on something that didn't work or was illegal.

I hate having to repeat this over and over, but IBOs won't read criticisms so I have to do it again for each person.

First, I'm not saying Quixtar is currently illegal. Okay? So let's stop pretending everyone is saying that, mmmkay? (Though there's a good argument that what the QBOs do is pretty borderline...)

Of course Barnes & Noble (etc.) will do what works -- FOR THEM, not for you. Just because Office Max makes money when you buy their products DOES NOT MEAN you will become rich by that transaction.

You are their CUSTOMER, they are your SUPPLIER. Just because they get rich from you shopping at Quixtar does not mean you will.

It floors me that so many Quixtar IBOs can't tell the difference between suppliers and customers, and confuse the two roles -- and then run around telling people to emulate their business acumen!

I hope you never get laid off from your job, I hope they never force you to move your family...

And I hope you stop trying to encourage people to do something which, for them, will likely mean a huge loss in time and potential income.

I hope that one day you have the chance to "make it to the top" and make just as much as the owner or CEO of your company...

Thank you, but I'm already CEO a small but profitable company. But my dreams don't revolve around cash.

Anyway, have fun responding to this.

Nothing I haven't heard from five dozen IBOs before. You all echo the exact same easily-refuted arguments you got off a tape, and almost none of you will think about the responses.

Good luck on picking out things I've written to put statements together to make false comments I never said.

"Making false comments"? To the contrary, most of your own arguments were based in that: Let's see, you said I had my dreams shattered, that I said my life was pathetic, that I was poor, you implied I said Quixtar was illegal, that I have no "dreams", etc.

None of that was true.

In contrast, as any reader (who isn't an IBO) will be able to see, I've accurately quoted, verbatim, each statement of yours I've responded to.

I've seen first hand make it, are making mid to upper 6 figures all the way to mid 7 figures.

People at or near Diamond level make lots of money -- why do you think they keep the business going? Because they lose cash from it?

But you're not asking the fundamental questions:

1. Is it moral to make a lot of money by pushing an "opportunity" you know will ultimately COST most people money? (The answer here, for the ethically challenged, is "NO".)

2. What's the result for the typical person you sign up? If "average" throws you off (telling you half or more won't make jack) then ask how 70% or 80% or 99% will do. The answers aren't pretty: even 99.5% won't make as much as $24K, and the bulk of those are going in the hole.

3. Are those 6/7-figure salaries being made by doing what you're doing, and telling others to do?

Again, the answer is NO: those people are primarily making their money off tools and training seminars, not by buying Quixtar products or "residuals" (which can't happen under a 66% annual dropout rate). This works like "success trainers" who make money just by holding seminars and selling books. They make money one way, while telling their audience to do something else entirely.

Again, have fun and good luck.

In return, I ask you to think seriously about what you're doing to other people.

well i just recently got into this program and after reading i mean wow.. so im not like obsessed over this or anything but im gonna give it a try.. and if it doesnt work then it doesnt. i mean i really dont have anyting to lose and im like a crazy person and i like to try new things.. and everyone seems nice.. so idk..

Good luck Tanya. Some advice: Keep a close watch on your expenditures and be aware of upline being more interested in you purchasing "tools" than in helping you turn a profit.

C_Will wrote: That was frightening to say the least. The fact of the matter is though that a very good friend of almost 12 years got sucked into this and I haven't heard from him in months now.

Joe says: I have friends who were in the business since 1993 who I haven't seen since then, but heard that they are still active, attend all the meetings, but have never gone beyond platinum (but not Q12).

Normally, I delete comments written in all upper case, but that's just too funny to remove! Why thank you, incoherent anonymous person.

Look, I love it when people do well. But I don't think something which pays far less than minimum wage is a form of success: it's a loss, compared to what they could be earning.

If somebody came to you and said: "I plan on defrauding people!" would you wish them luck? Or would you tell them you hoped they would find something better to do? I said that to a person who had just admitted he believed that most the people he signed up would fail. To do that to people, knowing full well that will be the outcome, is simply immoral.

Anyway, hate- and rage-filled person, I hope you come back down to earth, and think seriously about what you're doing to other people. I think you know full well how immoral what you're doing is. God will judge us all.

We were Q12 Platinums the last 2 out of 4 years. We worked this business exactly how was taught for 5 years and achieved Platinum in 18 months and Ruby in 2 years. After Q12 last year, we evaluated where we were at for the first time in 5 years - needless to say we woke up from the brainwashing. We wish we could have seen it sooner, but the manipulation in the business is subtle, but so convincing. We have seen over 1000 people come and go through our business in 5 years - the business is like spinning plates constantly - you have to get them in faster than they are getting out! We had good width and were always profitable, I did some retailing and tons of merchandising. We know our diamonds really well and trusted them completely. We know for sure now that the business only works by taking advantage of people who cannot afford it. We are in debt due to years of stocking products and CDs - we stopped investing in our retirement funds and savings because we put everything we had into our business - cuz we were going Diamond!!! If anyone is new, please realize the biz is all smoke and mirrors, no one is really doing as well as they say - over edification is standard practice. It looks way better than they say and the only person who is making money is your upline diamond. After 5 years and 1000 people, the only person who is better off is our upline diamond who's been in forever- he's living the dream - only he's a manipulator and deluded.