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This was actually written in February, but has been sitting in the database, unpublished and collecting dust, until a friend mentioned the topic a while back... The movie "The God Who Wasn't There" makes the claim that early Christians invented Jesus, partially informed by the myth of the Egyptian god Osiris. The argument seems to be part of some bizarre chain of reasoning indicating that unless every single element in the story of Jesus's life was unique, then the story must be a fraud or must have been a copy of an earlier story. The Devil Did It!Touchingly, the movie also assures its audience that Christians have no other answer than that the "devil counterfeited" this story, by knowing about it in advance. Huh? Though it mocks the naivete of Christians, it appears the movie is counting on the same trait in its audience. First, whether the devil exists or not, the argument is self-contradictory. It is claimed that it is impossible for the devil to have forseen the arrival of Jesus in advance. Yet the movie also claims that Christians came up with the idea for Jesus by seeing the events in Jesus's life first in old testament prophecies. So what was obvious to the disciples -- the specific events in Jesus's life as found in prophecy -- was supposed to be impossible for the devil to also see? (Wily folks, those early Christians -- more cunning and deceptive than even the Devil! Trickery impossible for the devil was a cakewalk for them.) (And the argument itself is also a backhanded admission, since it admits that the events of Jesus's life match up with prophecy.) And clearly, we're supposed to reject the idea of the devil out of hand. Why? Again, we're in circular-logic-land. The devil is a ridiculous idea because Christianity is false. And Christianity is false because -- according to the producers -- all it has to offer are arguments about the devil. But, of course, it doesn't -- that's just a straw man argument (yet another fallacy) from the film's producer... Fallacy for Fun and ProphetAll religions attempt to answer the basic questions which confront humanity: Why are we here? Why is the universe like it is? Is this all there is, or is there life after death? And always, it's tempting to draw a link between the natural and the spiritual: there are obvious parallels between an afterlife -- if you believe in one -- and natural cycles of birth and death. So we should not be surprised if the same themes show up repeatedly in every culture and religion -- people everywhere tend to ask the same basic questions, and all can observe the same natural phenomena. When people make these kinds of arguments: "Christianity just copied the idea of Jesus doing X from pagan mythology Y..." they're reasoning backwards. They first presume Christianity false -- of course, none of that stuff actually happened... -- and then try to guess which religion it must have lifted each idea or event from. This is a bit like presuming the accused guilty, then working backwards to figure out what her crime must have been. And, rather than only focus on similarity in the basic questions all people ask (via their religions), it is also important to consider the answers being given, which tend to be very, very different. In a class where every child is handed the same examination we must listen to the answers given to learn who each child is, and what makes them an indivdual. Take this question: "Can anyone journey to the world of the dead and come back?" Surely, that question was asked in every people-group on earth. Now consider one answer, the Greek myth of Persephone, which centers around (as most pagan myths did) sex: Persephone travels each year to the underworld to copulate with her husband, Hades. Her mother, Demeter, godess of plants, mourns her absence until she returns. The result is that we have winter each year, and plants die. Now look at the Christian answer to the same question: God -- the only God -- took human form to explain Himself to us. He also died to forgive our sins, after the pattern of guilt-transferring sacrifice He formerly taught the Jews. When dead, he told the souls of those who died before what had transpired. Then God raised his body to life to demonstrate this was no ordinary man. The result is that our sins are forgiven, and we can approach a holy, righteous God. Superficially, the question is the same: It is a pondering about descents into the world of the dead: Does it happen? When? What does it mean? But the answers to the question could not be more different. Yet such critics only focus on the common question, ignoring the vastly different answers. To make such arguments work, the producers tell their audiences only what they want them to know about presumptively similar pagan myths. They single out and highlight -- or change slightly -- the details which look similar to the Jesus story, but omit or hide those facts which dispel the impression. They note that themes have common elements while downplaying vastly different practical and theological implications. And they search for bizarre explanations in foreign pagan cultures, while missing more obvious links to Jewish culture. The best way to expose this kind of dishonesty is to simply learn more about the purportedly stolen myths themselves... Jesus based on Osiris?One suggested source for the story of Jesus was the myth of Osiris:
Sure, there are a few similarities: Seth -- the killer -- was a bad guy (aren't they all?), Osiris died, and then came back to life. But a lot of differences too: Osiris was the god of the underworld and the dead, not heaven. Osiris was married. Orsis was green. Osiris was fooled, where Jesus is depicted as dying by his own deliberate choice. Osiris was cut into pieces, but not a bone was broken on Jesus. And let's not get into the missing penis, it's prosthetic replacement, and all the corpse and kite sex... So this is the big relevation? This is the basis for the Jesus story? This is supposedly what Jews were getting into around the first century? I suppose there's a good reason other alternatives are suggested... Jesus and DionysusDionysus is also suggested as the source for the story of Jesus. (Of course, if both the myths of Dionysus and Osirus are supposed to be similar to that of Jesus, then doesn't that mean one of these two therefore must have been copied from the other? Or are only Christians supposed to lack originality?) The Greek god Dionysus later came to be known as Bacchus, the god of wine, drunkenness, and altered mental states: patron saint of frat parties and Roman orgies. He is often associated with images of the bull, ivy, and a snake. (Ah yes, the snake, biblical symbol of the devil. Sounds like a great model for a proto-Jesus!) And, like Osiris, Dionysus was also associated with plants. (Noticing a pattern?) As you can see, this isn't working out very well, similarity-wise. Perhaps we should let an apologist for this argument explain it to us:
Again: That's it? Because the followers of Bacchus get plastered out of their mind, the disciples must have been copying that tradition when they had the last supper -- never mind that nobody seems to have been behaving badly. Also never mind that they were observing an ancient Jewish ritual which involved a cup of wine -- Passover. We must accept the bizarre explanation -- Bacchus -- and overlook the obvious one -- Seder. As far the idea of eating flesh and drinking blood in the Christian communion coming from the cult of Dionysus, here are the relevant details of that myth:
Yep, that's clearly the source of the Christian idea of communion -- much more likely than the Jewish Passover, or the ancient Jewish belief that blood represented the life of an individual, and blood spilled represented atonement for sin.
And what of the idea that Dionysus's birth was similar to that of Jesus's birth? See here for a full telling of the myth; there's almost nothing in common: Dionysus is born twice, Jesus is born once. Whereas Jesus was allegedly fully God, but also fully human, born in the normal manner, the Greek myth-makers had Dionysus actually be born out of Zeus's leg -- because he would not have been immortal if he had been born normally, from a mortal woman. Where Mary was a virgin, and remained one until after Jesus's birth, Dionysus's mother (Semele) was flirting with Acteon on the side, and doing Zeus (who was cheating on his wife) because Hera promised her it would bring her incredible erotic pleasure. Where Semele's motive was lust, Mary's motive was a pure, non-physical love for God. Where Jesus conceived by an ordinary woman and born in humble circumstances, Dionysus was conceived by a princess, and ripped from his mothers' womb during a disasterous attempt at pregnancy-sex in the heavenly palaces, as part of a larger "sex war" raging up there between Hera and Zeus. Mary lived to see her son die; Semele was burned to death before giving birth by Zeus's misfired thunderbolt. In short, there's nothing in common except the idea of an impregnated mortal. (Which is precisely what that's the only detail mentioned!) And if we were to grant the Christian idea a hearing -- that of God becoming incarnated as a full human -- an impregnated woman would have to be part of that story -- as ordinary and expected as that God-man eating, drinking, and sleeping. So it's hardly a suspicious, out-of-place element that we'd have to search elsewhere to explain. As far as the "visionary state achieved through the sacrament": The author appears to know absolutely nothing about Christianity. Christians don't celebrate communion to "achieve a visionary state". If you're Catholic, you believe it forgives your sins. If you're a Protestant, you believe you do it to proclaim Jesus's death until he comes again. And most US Christians drink unfermented grape juice -- since when does Welch's induce ecstatic hallucinations? And Christianity is somehow supposed to be bad because Christians allegedly "walk voluntarily into the cruellest of martyrdoms." I would suggest that it is those doing the killing -- or more to the point, the lies which always justify such killing -- which should be criticized. Lies kind of like... well, I don't know. Can you think of any examples, dear reader? Perhaps the people at religioustolerance.org can do better:
Well, let's check the play itself to see if this is true:
I guess this translator must have gotten it wrong: Dionysus' contempt-filled sneer sounds very little like Jesus's pleading on the cross. Also, it doesn't seem any execution occurs: King Pentheus commands his soldiers: "Lock him up -- in the adjoining stables. That way he'll see nothing but darkness." Dionysus confidently replies: "I won't have to suffer what won't occur." Just like Jesus, right? So, um, I guess a lie or two isn't a barrier to promoting the "truth", is it? Clearly, the folks at religioustolerance.org didn't think their readers would ever check their sources. (Since when are deception and lies an important part of religious "tolerance"?) Last on this point, from this summary you can easily see how the outcome of this play was exactly like the story of the founding of early church and character of Jesus:
Well, need we any more proof? It's now crystal clear the story of the character and life of Jesus was indeed based on this fun little Greek vignette, which I'm sure was performed incessantly in Jerusalem at the time. The Jews were so into mother-son cannibalism, you know. And we all remember the part where Jesus avoided death, made Pontius Pilate's mother rip her son's body up and eat it, and even cruelly punished the disciples who worshipped him. All while laughing derisively at the misery he inflicted on everyone. Or was it different to say Jesus died willingly on the cross, without even defending himself, begging, as he suffered and perished, for God to forgive even those who wrongly convicted him? Missing the Obvious SourcesWhat is amazing to me about these stretches is how, in a search for some obscure origin for the Jesus story, the obvious patterns are so cluelessly overlooked. We're supposed to believe, for example, that it is some amazing co-incidence that both Osiris and Jesus were wrapped in cloth when dead. Duh! The reason this is true is because so many societies wrapped all their dead in cloth. The dead Orisis was wrapped in cloth because that's what Egypians did for royalty. Jesus was wrapped in cloth because that's what Jews did for everyone. It's not some amazing emulation, it's just what happened to dead people in that region. It's a bit like pointing to two stories about great chefs, highlighting the amazing similarity in that they both cooked with fire. Well, duh. And much is often made of "twelves": "Oh look, there twelve gods of the Greek pantheon! Just like there are twelve disciples! Pretty suspicious, huh?" Er, not really. In early times (and even in the early US) it was common to need to divide things. Twelve was a nice number because it was easily divisble by 2, 3, 4 and 6. It's the same reason we have 12 hours on a clock, or 360 degrees (which adds disibility by 5 and 10, and six sixes) on a compass dial. Seven was three plus four, twelve was three times four. God uses "twelves" incessantly in the Old Testament, so why would we think he'd be different in the New? And if we can find so many "twelves" in the ancient sacred writings of Judaism, why on earth are we desparate to explain them by referring to paganism? (Just as a joke, I could make up even better "proof" that the idea for Jesus plus twelve disciples must have come from the Mayans of ancient central America by citing this: "There are reasons to think that the Oxlahuntikú (13 stellar gods) were constituted by the twelve constellations of the Maya zodiac and the sun passes them... the number 12 is transformed in 13 by the addition of the ruling element..." Twelve plus a ruling element! Wow! Impossible co-incidence, right?) Likewise, we're supposed to be shocked that there were "dying gods" before Jesus. The story of Jesus's resurrection, we're told, comes from imitating these stories. But, again, in reality, there's a far more obvious origin: "Dying gods" tended to be nature gods. In nature, there are seasons, and things seem to die in the winter and come back to life in the spring. Likewise, a grain or seed appears to be "dead", but goes into the ground and produces life. So these gods themselves are simply imitations of the pattern of nature around us. If we believe God created nature, then these gods are simply an imitiation of a tiny part of the natural pattern God himself used. That is the pattern manifested in the Christ story (in fact, Jesus makes this exact analogy), not the gods who were crafted in imitation of that same natural pattern, which was visible to all. Likewise, it is clear people die. Any religion which believed in "eternal life" would have to have some elements conforming to this pattern: life coming from death. Again, the pattern fundamentally comes from the idea that the dead are raised, not the pagan gods who were envisioned as embodying this idea, just as they were embodied as personifying every other natural and theological pattern. And if we assume, just for the sake of argument, that God does exist and that the human soul is eternal, then how could he answer this question for us? How better to communicate this and provide proof of the effectiveness of the teaching than to come in the form of those to be resurrected, and demonstrate the possibility of such by actually rising? Jewish ProphecyFinally, why search so far away, in such alien traditions, for a pattern for the Jesus story? Why not just examine Isaiah 53, a prophecy written long before the time of Jesus (and The Bacchae) which says:
This man is not green. He does not have a severed penis. He is not prone to drunken orgies. He is not symbolized by a snake. Instead, all the main elements of the purported story of Jesus are there: healing people, being righteous and honest, being rejected specifically by the Jewish nation, dying to forgive sins, taking the "inquity" of others upon himself, dying, and yet living afterwards. As even the movie's producers were forced to admit, this is much more like the story of Jesus's life than any of the suggested pagan myths. And in admitting that similarity, they contradict themselves: Which is it? Did the disciples imitate the Greek myths or old Jewish scriptures? If they borrowed the idea of resurrection from this passage, then why steal from a far-away pagan myth? If you can explain it with one, then why bother trying to shoe-horn in another? (It amazes me that people can see the tremendous similarities and co-incidences when comparing the life of Jesus to, for example, The Bacchae -- "It cannot possibly be mere coincidence!" -- but cannot even consider whether similarities between Jesus's life and prophecy are anything but lucky hits.) So what's been proven?Skeptics are fond of asserting their arguments have never been answered: "Nobody has ever explained the similarity between the Jesus story and the story of X" they will say, where X can be Dionysus, Osiris, Mithras... or a few others carefully selected from the hundreds or even thousands (counting India) of pagan deities available. But the truth is that those arguments have been answered, and countless times at that -- I'm not the first person to point out what I wrote above. And there are many, many more reasons to believe that a historical Jesus, who was at least reasonably close to the gospel accounts, is a much more credible explanation than borrowed pagan myths. To the contrary, in my experience, it is more often the skeptics who have failed, time and time again, to answer our rebuttals and challenges. For one, if Jesus was just imagined or based on another myth (which one, even the producers aren't sure!), then how did so many followers simultaneously imagine the same person? How did they come up with so many of the same details? There are historical ripples radiating outwards: did no stone fall in the center? Also: If I wanted to make up a story about a fake guy, I wouldn't set the story in the very same city where I was trying to create a following: too many people would know the real details. It would be too easily discredited. I'd set it in some far away city, or some heavenly realm, where nobody could check for sure. But here we have Christianity, where the first followers were indeed known to be Jewish, and church itself was based in the very city where Jesus was purported to have walked and taught and been publicly executed just decades earlier. Worse, there are prominent followers like James, an early leader who claimed to have been Jesus's own brother! Surely he must have had some relatives who could have come forward and put him out of business just by saying otherwise, no? So here is Christianity, structured exactly this way, with his earliest followers recorded as going to their death rather than retract their testimony. I don't see how that makes sense if they personally had made up the idea. And the allegation that the disciples and first followers were liars conflicts with written accounts of these people who said they were honorable men, held in high esteem for their ethics. And finally, where's the profit in all of this? L. Ron Hubbard pointed out the best way to become rich and powerful was to start your own religion -- and then demonstrated it quite well! What was in this for the first Christians? They were Jews: Why did they think they could create a massive Jewish following by inventing an imaginary messiah who did not come to save Israel from Rome? Who seemed to conflict with the common Jewish belief that a man could not also be God? Where the main witnesses to the resurrection story were women (who were not thought of as reliable witnesses)? Who got killed in the middle of his mission? And who predicted (correctly) that those who wanted to follow him would often be impoverished, persecuted, and even martyred? It's the most unbelievable idea I've ever heard. Or if Jesus really existed, but deliberately orchestrated his own life to match the Jewish prophecies, why would he pick the one above? I mean, "suffering, dying and rising again" is not exactly a great narrative to build a cult upon. The part about "suffering and dying" tends to mess with your typical long-term cult-leader objectives -- usually money, power, and unlimited babes. And its usually pretty hard for you, the cult leader, to be sure you could move beyond step #2, the "dying" part. But again, to some people, that apparently sounds highly plausable. We Christians constantly hear that everything we believe is "blind faith". Over the years, I've come to believe this is often projection: Sometimes, sadly, people watch movies like this one, do no research, and swallow it all, hook, line and sinker, accepting the absurd (Jesus is just like Dionysus!) while rejecting the obvious (communion came from a solemn Jewish ritual, not a drunken Greek orgy) -- because that satisfies some internal need, not because the evidence really points that way. But, again, sometimes there's a reason, and a motivation behind such credulity, a deep hurt which makes a person mad at God, and ready to believe the worst. If you're in such a situation, and found yourself angry at God and not wanting to be that way any longer, drop me a note, and I'll pray for you. God bless you. I've run into this kind of thing before. I think it fits what you're saying. The basic argument is that Lewis's (or McDowell's -- who used it later) point is invalid because there are more than three options. For example, the author suggests that the historical Jesus might not have matched the real one -- a fourth option. The author apparently also thinks that a man who claims to be God, and misleads people -- as long as the cause or intentions are good -- could still be both a "liar" and a good man. In doing so, the author makes two counter-points: one is a straw man argument, the other has some validity, but surely not quite in the way the author intended. The straw man is: "The historical Jesus is different than the biblical Jesus." Sure, this is a valid general objection, but it wasn't the question Lewis was answering. Lewis has addressed that point elsewhere; the question HE was answering was -- as he stated specifically:
Note that the person Lewis is answering isn't raising the issue that the bible might be wrong. The question doesn't make any sense if that's the objection; the questioner would instead be saying: "Well, the bible's not right anyway, so I don't have to deal with it's picture of Jesus, because that's wrong." It makes no sense to talk about "his claims", and being ready to "accept" Jesus on some terms, when you also believe nobody really knows anything about him. The person the "infidel" posits -- one who feels the bible doesn't tell us about Jesus, and that we don't know what he actually claimed -- most certainly is not and cannot be (if we assume them to be even vaguely logically coherant) -- the same person asking Lewis's question. That's obvious to the casual reader. But not to someone desparate to find a rebuttal -- any rebuttal.
A lunatic might not view another lunatic's claim to be God as necessarily crazy -- but perhaps butting in on his territory. ;-) A liar might not think it so bad if another lied. After all, he feels compelled justify his own behavior at any cost. (Speaking of...) So yes, for certain twisted individuals, they might not think either of these behaviors were BAD. But so??? So what? A liar is still a liar -- even if one takes the term as a compliment. He's attacking Lewis's characterization of that as bad -- not the trilemma itself. And leave it to an infidel to make his core argument: "Well, maybe lying isn't bad." Heheh, well, yes, maybe. And then perhaps we can infer something about said author. But it's not about the trilemma per se, nor does it undermine it the 'trifucation' (if you will). It just proposes that we shouldn't get worked up about certain kinds of liars -- including, apparently, cult leaders who cause their followers to die for their lies. If that's your idea of a rebuttal, um, have at it, I suppose. But I'm not sure I'd make that a key argument behind the promotion of my belief system. And it's a really funny argument coming from an atheist, given that atheists so often claim god-belief must be rejected as bad and harmful, even if it has some beneficial effects and good intentions are present, because it's untrue -- that makes it bad, no matter what. Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on May 21, 2006 10:55 PM Jesus, Mithra, Krishna, Ra, Isis, Quetzalcoatl, Osiris, Dionysus, Buddah, etc., just pick one, they are all mythological---rehashed, redistributed, repackaged and recycled! Yep, Just pick one to worship, or even none at all...life will go on, regardless. Posted by: Free on August 28, 2006 02:24 AM "Mythological" in what sense, Free? This is a real problem we have today: that people deny both the tremendous differences between different religions (or none at all) and the tremendous and very real differences that one's thinking can have. Joseph Campbell's writings been a very effective brainwashing tool. For example, there is no clear physical evidence that most of figures you mention ever existed, except for two: Jesus and Buddha, both of whom were clearly real people. And there is a vast difference in the philosophy between the two: Buddhism teaches that life is illusion, and 'attachment' to things is the problem. Jesus felt the universe was very real, and that the problem was sin, and caring too little, not too much. So who you follow will produce a vastly different answer. Why do you think East and West were so vastly different before modern civilization spread from West to East? It's because their religions were so different. It's not just a serious of mindless accidents based on germs, guns, and steel, as some would have it. Quetzalcoatl demanded massive human sacrifice, in India, followers of Kali still sacrifice victims -- often children. In contrast, YHWH taught the Jews not to burn their children as sacrifices, as the surrounding cultures did, and Jesus, who claimed to be his son, told his would-be followers to turn the other cheek and do good to those who persecute them. 100 million people died in the last century, enabled primarily by the philosophy that God didn't exist, so the state could do whatever it wanted. And you think people's thinking has no effect on their behavior????? Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on August 29, 2006 03:14 AM Interpretations. Human interpretations. How many "christian" denominations are there. Why? Because they are viewing everything through individual eyes. Reading a book and interpreting it through their own filter. And we are supposed to believe which of the tens of thousands of viewpoints espoused on the web as to which version of the "truth" is correct? Posted by: Jeff on July 6, 2007 05:27 PM Hiya Jeff, and welcome! To group and address your comments by common theme: Interpretations. Human interpretations. How many "christian" denominations are there. Why? Because they are viewing everything through individual eyes. Reading a book and interpreting it through their own filter... My point is that God is the author of confusion, therefore he is the Devil. It would appear your litmus test for belief in God would be a lack of diversity. If the God of the bible was real, you seem to be arguing, everyone would have the exact same view of the bible. (Paradoxically, since that's not at all the God the bible describes, it would simultaneously be false. So you demand that a contradiction be fulfilled.) Tell me, where is the room for free will in the God you demand? Would he zap people who came up with the wrong interpretation, kill them for arguing the opposite of what the text says? It seems your argument implies just that. Well, odd then: you desire a God who is actually allows *less* free will and room for disagreement than the God of the bible. Perhaps you'd claim that the bible should have been written more clearly -- no ambiguities, no loose ends, no poetic language or symbols? Why? What would that solve? I notice that the US Constitution is a fairly concise, clear, and concrete document -- and yet people have a myriad of opinions on that as well. For example, the Supreme Court just ruled, contrary to the plain meaning of the text, that the government can take private property away from one citizen and give to another. Things like this happen all the time, and the country is divided each time a novel interpretation is "discovered." So, hey, perhaps James Madison was the devil too, eh? By your logic, we must blame him for the fact that some can't or won't see even the plainest parts of a document, for the fact that many today ardently believe in a "living, breathing" Constitution which says whatever they'd like to imagine into (or out of) it today. The problem most people have with the bible isn't that there are parts of it they don't understand, Jeff. The problem most people have is that they don't much like the implications of the parts of it they already do understand.
Lack of knowledge on some of the more obscure topics is understandable, but irrevelant. For most of us, it won't really matter, for example, what the exact details of the end times are -- unless we live through it, it's just an area of idle speculation. Other areas, there's room for tolerance, and I don't see why it should be otherwise. There are lots of things we won't know, about the universe, about the nature of will, the soul, etc. You seem to have less room for ambiguity in those areas than most Christians -- again, sort of the opposite of the standard criticism. Finally, there are areas where the bible *is* fairly clear, such as "What makes you saved?" Jesus spoke on this in no uncertain terms -- but that doesn't mean many people wouldn't wish it to say, as they do with the US Constitution, something completely different. So it appears your complaint about God is that (a) he didn't tell us everything (I'm not even sure we could get it all, frankly) and (b) he allows us free will. That kind of god, in your opinion, is a devil -- so perhaps a good God would be the one who never allows any diversity or opposition. Funny: your idea of heaven is my idea of hell, and your perfect idea of God looks a lot to me like Josef Stalin.
Yes, quite, actually. And more so each time I read the writings of critics. (I often say I became a Christian, intellectually, due to the influence of atheists.) What I'm saying here, and what I've written above, seems to make quite a lot more sense than the various contradictory and diversity-loathing attributes you demand of God. (Never mind those I address above, who think The Bacchae was the model for the life of Jesus!) There's a long list of reasons I think the bible makes more sense than its critics. And your own words just added a bullet or two to that list: I find the biblical God better than the one you demand, in several ways. Likewise, the stupidest ideas I've ever encountered have come from among the bible's critics: the belief that man is basicly good, that gender is socially determined, that Communism was a good idea and would work, that the Constitution says whatever we want it to, that nature or human law is the same thing as morality, that poverty causes bad morals, that the universe always existed and had no beginning, that our lives can have any ultimate meaning without some kind of God, that reality is simply an illusion, that morality or even reality itself is "relative", etc, etc, etc.
Yeah: he should never allow that. He should be like a controlling parent who makes sure his four-year-old never gets to make any mistakes. Tell me: What is our purpose here, if not to be allowed to seek, learn, and make choices? Is it just to march in slavish lockstep devotion? If I recall correctly, Jesus also allowed people to make a hash of his words -- and ministry. And allowed himself to be crucified.
It's completely unclear. So are parts of the Revelation to John. Likewise, the bible doesn't spell out every last detail about what happens after death. And so? What you're complaining about is mystery, not confusion. You apparently want all mystery removed. I tend to think it's good for us, and rather enjoyable. It's exciting to always have something new to learn. As Solomon said: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings..." And the verse your mis-using relates (1 Cor 14:31-33, which says God is not a God of confusion, or "disorder") refers to disorder and disarray among people trying to follow God, not disorder among those opposed to him. Over and over the Psalmist asks God to throw those who hate him into confusion and disarray. As long as people don't fight about them, and become permanently divided, I view a difference of opinions as diversity, not something evil. Of course, people *do* fight about them, but I tend to view those doing the fighting as responsible, not the one who told them, explicitly, not to do that.
Can I read God's every last thought? Of course not. But I've read the bible and found the vast majority of it to be quite clear, especially on those things most relevant for living. Do I know exactly how the world came into being? Or how many years it will be until it ends? No. Do I know I should love my neighbor as myself? Yes, that's completely clear. Do I know exactly how God became flesh? No. Is it clear that the bible says Jesus is the image of God in heaven? Yes. Do I know exactly how my sins are forgiven? No. But do the gospels clearly state that belief that Jesus died to forgive them is essential? Yes. This isn't much different than any area of life, friend. Physicists may not know exactly what quarks are, or if brane theory is right. But that's fine, because I don't need that in order to live my life. On the other hand, we're all pretty clear about the laws of thermodynamics -- unless you're part of the New Age movement. And then I blame the New Agers, not the physicists.
Jettisoning, for a moment, any scintilla of religious belief I might have, I don't see how you can make an absurd statement from even a secular point of view. Is the US Constitution, which revolutionized the political world, just another document? Is Shakespeare, the second-most quoted source in the English language, just another playwright? Was Mozart just another musician? Yet this one book seems to have had a greater impact, in every way, than all of these. It is the document which made the Western world. Even our atheists have deeply imbibed and accepted it's core assertions. I could go on why this book is totally unlike any other I've ever encountered -- in ways both natural, and apparently supernatural. But I'll leave that for a follow-up response, assuming you bother to answer the criticisms I've offered already. Take care... Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on July 7, 2007 12:46 AM Add your two cents...
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I hear echoes of the Trilemma in those last few paragraphs. I've still not seen a well thought out rebuttal to that C.S. Lewis's most famous arguement, usually they just consist of opponents trying their damnedest to come up with other possibilities, most of which are either silly or really can be placed into one of the three catagories.
Posted by: Troy on May 21, 2006 09:34 PM