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I read about the Secret Service seizure of "million-dollar" bill tracts: one side looks like currency. The other side has a religious message, and the address of the publisher. (Sounds like a good counterfeit to me!) So I'm curious as to what president they chose to put on the fictional denomination. I visit the publisher's web site, hoping for a look. The author is named Ray Comfort, and he's selling a book on Nostrodamus, whose stuff is incredibly vague. So I wonder if he's being serious, or if it's just a hook to present the prophecies in, say, Isaiah. So I got to Amazon, looking for reviews... Which brings me to a review which says one of Comfort's refutations of atheism is full of holes (possible: there are indeed many fallacious arguments on each side), and directs the reader to The Case Against God. At first, I do my usual: "Wonder if he's got a point?" thing. Seems like the reviewers are generally atheists (even the ones pretending to be fake Christians). From what I can see, Smiths' argument boils down to this: Christians cannot absolutely prove God exists, so you shouldn't believe in God; atheism is simply failing to believe in God. Huh? So what are agnostics? Oh yes, all agnostics are atheists now too. As are New-Agers and animists if they believe in spiritual forces but not a theistic God, per se. As, I suppose, are Buddhists, who also don't believe in the theistic god. It's amazing how you can change your group's membership from a tiny minority to a good chunk of the world just by altering a definition. The problem is that Smith's definition is dishonest and ahistorical: Atheism comes from Greek atheos, for no-god. It's athe-ism -- meaning nogod-ism, an active assertion there is no God -- not no-theism, a mere failure to be a theist. Pantheists are not atheists, Mr. Smith. And of course, if Christians cannot "prove" God, we must all become atheists. But atheists are not required to "prove" anything. (How convenient!) Of course, Christians, as far as I've seen, cannot "prove" God any more than I can prove you exist -- frankly I cannot do either. If you already buy Smith's assumption that atheism should be the default, then, of course, this will resonate with you. But that's a bit circular, don't you think? And what is the default assumption, if nobody can "prove" either? It is that God doesn't exist? Why should that be a default any more than God does exist? Isn't the default to enter a debate with no particular opinion and an open mind, and then see where the evidence points one? So I see the default as "agnostism", which Mr. Smith desires we call "atheism" instead. Thinking these thoughts, and re-examining the cover, I remembered I had picked up a copy of this in Borders, while hanging out with a friend. Page after page simply relied upon fallacious straw man arguments: you could open it at random and tear it apart. We laughed at his ignorance: It seemed to us that Mr. Smith couldn't even be troubled to learn the basics about the religion he thought he was refuting. For example, one page fell open to an argument based on the premise that Christians define faith as belief without any supporting evidence. I have never met a Christian who uses that definition, nor even a layman: When you say you have "faith" that your wife has not slept around, do you mean you have no evidence at all? Or do you mean that you have plenty of evidence, but that this is one of those unprovable things? When a man says he has "faith" in the stock market, does it mean he has no evidence that it makes people wealthy? Sure, he can't prove that it will continue to do so, but, again, he's using the inductive reasoning we all employ every day. And I guess I'm not the only theist who noticed this:
I often felt like that while reading Betrand Russell's attacks. And I was something less than 21 at the time. Here was the greatest logician of all time, or so I was told, and I was apparently poking serious holes in his arguments. It's not that we're all so wise, it's just that it's much easier to win an argument when the evidence is with you, not against you. The burden of proof for a positive assertion rests on the person making the assertion. I agree. I'd simply note to you that "there is no God" is a positive assertion. And this was indeed how Russell defined 'atheism'.
If you define atheism as the belief there is no God, then you have just contradicted yourself. And, if you are agreeing with Russell here, you have indeed done so, since that is precisely the "atheism" of which he spoke and which you have now defended. On the other hand, if you define atheism as a mere failure to believe in theism, then I would agree with you (after all, I just said the same thing, using the word "agnosticism"). But I would point out your argument wouldn't apply in this case: you would be switching out Russell's historically-correct definition of 'athiesm' for your own private one -- one which would also, strangely, accept many mediums, spiritists, New Agers, and even Buddhists. I don't mind when people employ private definitions -- even wacky or tendentious ones -- I just ask they be clear about (re-)defining their terms. Thanks! Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on July 2, 2006 10:30 PM But dictionary definitions of agnosticism don't fit exactly as a null hypothesis either. If we take the dictionary defintion from dictionary.com, agnosticism is also painted as a positive rather than negative assertion; Dictionary.com I can't find any term which the dictionary defines precisely as 'negative theistic belief due to perceived failure to assert a positive.' The words atheism and agnosticism have both been used to fill this lingusitic gap. Wikipedia, though not a formal authority, corroborates these popular usages. Exbeliever elsewhere made a convincing argument that a person who makes this assertion; "none of the arguments for God which I've heard are valid, therefore I don't believe" is popularly called an atheist. Thus asserting the popular legitimacy of the usage. And to assert that you've seen no good evidence for a thing after a long debate is often to tenatively not believe the original assertion. one which would also, strangely, accept many mediums, spiritists, New Agers, and even Buddhists. I had one friend in college who called himself an atheist and swore by the zodiac. So I'm fine, linguisticaly, with a definition of atheism which accepts the supernatural. (I admit his beliefs surprised me.) More importantly, this definition seems entirely consistant with how everyone I've known has used the word. Perhaps you could label the definition I've used as colloquial, but it's certainly not private. It's popularly used the way I've used it. Granted, I think it's horribly confusing for a person to define themeselves by the things they don't believe in rather than what they do. If someone were a buddist, humanist or nihlist I'd use those terms because they're more accurate than 'atheist' or 'agnostic.' Posted by: Ryan on July 3, 2006 03:09 PM Hey Tim. This doesn't have a lot to do with the topic I don't think, but this entry was the closet I could find to what I'm wanting to link. Why Won't God Heal Amputees? I've seen this site thrown around alot on the forums I read on various "Is God Real?" threads. I was wondering if you've done any reading on this site (or if you've even heard of it) and if you have, have you tryed to refute any of the things the author of the information on the site is saying? I'm sure some of it is the same old arguement against Scripture ("Moses said children should be killed for disobeying their parents! It's evidence against God!"), but some of it st may be stuff neither of us have seen before.
Posted by: Perry on June 28, 2007 08:56 PM Perry: Welcome! Your answer is posted here. Thanks! Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on June 29, 2007 05:09 AM Has anyone read 90 minutes in heaven by Don Piper or 23 minutes in Hell by Bill Wiess? Of course there's a God. Here's an analogy: Close your eyes. Now when you open your eyes, there is a car parked in front of you. I tell you it "magically" appeared out of a "big bang". Of coure you will tell me I'm crazy and that someone made the car and parked it in front of you. This year is 2007 as recognized all over the world. What does 2007 represent? Posted by: Joecool18 on June 29, 2007 02:10 PM Add your two cents...
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And what is the default assumption, if nobody can "prove" either? It is that God doesn't exist? Why should that be a default any more than God does exist? Isn't the default to enter a debate with no particular opinion and an open mind, and then see where the evidence points one? So I see the default as "agnostism", which Mr. Smith desires we call "atheism" instead.
The burden of proof for a positive assertion rests on the person making the assertion. Personally, I see the fruits of God-abiding civilizations as at least partial evidence that faith bears fruit and that a path other than hierarchical domination is open to humanity, putting the ball back in the atheists' court. But Russel is in fair territory making his assertion. The burden of proof falls on those claiming a thing does exist, not the ones claiming that it doesn't or claiming that they have no good evidence. Atheism is the logical null hypothesis.
Posted by: Ryan on July 2, 2006 10:07 PM