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I know, I know: the very title itself is nearly blasphemous. Richard Dawkins is, after all, the "Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University". Oxford is a respected institution, and you'd think such a title would imply, if nothing else, an understanding of science. Further, Dawkins is a respected scientist, and is invited to write stories and articles about science for a wide audience. I, on the other hand, am a semi-anonymous blogger who makes frequent spelling and typing errors and has ZERO scientific credentials, other than what one gets in a respectable postgraduate degree in engineering. If you had to bet on one of us, having no other evidence, then I'd assure you that you should bet on Dawkins, not myself, having a better understanding of what science is and is not. Heh, of course, I do have other evidence, and thus I'll present my audacious case to you: Richard Dawkins does not understand science. The only thing I have to convince you is the evidence.
Hopefully, you'd be wise enough to fall off your ass laughing at me. At least in your head, if not aloud, due to your considerable kindness and politeness. When a person says such a thing, they demonstrate a willingness to confuse this reality with another, an inability to recognize the difference between established fact and fond hope, and ultimately, an inability to recognize what actually is scientifically testable, and what actually is not. I call this technique "proof by wishful thinking." Our beliefs are scientific because we can imagine a future which proves them to be so. If I cannot provide an example of a valid experiment by which to test my beliefs against others, you'd be right to suspect me of trying to pull a fast one on you. Note that.
To crib from The Karl Popper Web:
And Wikipedia:
Note this also.
Here, Dawkins proposes that the paternity of Jesus is, in fact, a "scientific" question:
Okay, my stalwart and dedicated readers, what's wrong here? The first problem I see is that Dawkins is clearly stuck in a pre-Popperian scientific outlook. His argument rests on the idea that science is based on verifiability, not falsifiability. He further implies he can imagine "DNA demonstrating that Jesus was born of a virgin mother." Really??? In fact, the very thing he wants to call "scientific" is an utterly unscientific and unfalsifiable: Which DNA pattern could ever prove a man had no human father? A child born of miraculous conception could conceivably have any DNA pattern known to mankind. If a brand-new Y chromosome could be produced, then any other pattern could be introduced as well. There would be no way, looking at the DNA alone, to prove categorically it wasn't produced by sexual means. The question is analogous to asking for a piece of Java code which could prove it wasn't written down by a human. We could establish, perhaps that it contained information no human should have (e.g. the next sequence of winning lottery numbers), but that still wouldn't prove there was no human being involved. Next, even if we showed Jesus's DNA was different than Joseph's, all we'd be establishing was that Joseph was not the father (it could have been some other man) -- we would not be establishing a virgin conception! Dawkins would surely look for another suspect... and then, if all the male DNA in the region could be produced and excluded, would state that mutations happen, or that someone might have been missed! So there's two errors: in the explicit context of discussing what makes a proposition "scientific", he equates "scientific", with verifiability -- not falsifiability -- and then produces what seems to be an utterly unverfiable question as an example of a "scientific" proposition. Popper would have blown a gasket! A small, but serious and telling gaffe for the "Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science."
Here we see the confusion again: Dawkins again shows us he thinks about science (apparently exclusively, in this article) in terms of verifiability, not falsifiability. If people saw what Dawkins considered "a spectacular demonstration", Dawkins would conclude that to be "scientific" proof of God! What "spectacular demonstration" could unquestionably prove God's existence? No matter what reasonable test Dawkins proposes, someone could suggest co-incidence or deliberate fakery as a more likely explanation. Calling down fire from heaven? Secret US technology employed to justify a theocracy! Healing someone? Remissions happen. Sunspots or stars spelling out a personal message for Richard Dawkins to believe? Heck, everything unlikely happens: there are all kinds of fruit with Allah's name in them, and a face on Mars, all by chance -- what does that prove? None of these, even if they happened, would prove God's existence. The underlying mechanism would still be in question, just as it was when a friend of mine was healed of Lupus after we prayed for her.
See my point above. This is a telltale sign someone is engaged in wishful thinking, not rigorously trying to think about reality in a way which covers all the bases. In Dawkin's train of thought, as expressed here, there are a lot of little clouds where "a miracle occurs" to get him to his final conclusion. ![]()
Having seen a few, I believe in miracles. I fully admit, due to the transient nature of time, and the possibility of human failure (my own) that I could be wrong. I also admit this is nothing I can use to "prove" my beliefs or experiences to others. I have a religious belief system, and I know it. I know what science is, and what it is not. And I do not make my logical arguments depend on "miracles" -- proofs someone else will surely someday supply. But Richard Dawkins does not. He believe that religions and science overlap -- not that they *could*, but that they already DO. (Yet he provides no evidence for this stunning contention.) He thinks the negation of a religious statement ("God exists") is a scientific one ("God does not exist"). He implies science moves forward by categorically verifying theories, not disproving them. And he thinks religious and historical questions, such as the virgin birth -- and presumably the thoughts of Napolean, and the last words of Jesus -- could be proven scientifically. Verificationism is dead in the real world, but it lives on in Dawkins' mind.
When does Dawkins make these errors? When he's talking about that which he hates most: theism. His religious fervor clouds whatever knowledge and judgment he has, even about his specialty -- science. He cannot see these errors because he has much too much riding on them: he falls back into verificationism, as many atheistic scientists did before Popper made their cherished religious assumptions implausable. So it's no surprise that Dawkins lives in a pre-Popper world when these kinds of questions come up. It is, after all, the more comfortable place to be an atheist. Good thing it no longer passes as "scientific" thinking. Or does it... ? Welcome "Dog Boots"! Well, congratulations: it appears you're having a fine argument with a "young earth creationist". But, umm... (looks around) ... who are you arguing with? I employ the exact same argument you do: Why would God make the earth or universe appearch much older than it is? I agree that such a conception of God would be deceptive. But here's what I find interesting about your approach: You have no idea where I stand, and immediately burst into a stunning example of "straw man" fallacy, arguing against something no-one here has offered, and ignoring those points actually offered. Why do so many atheists have trouble reading and responding to the document in front of them? Perhaps we just make too many assumptions about each other? Or perhaps you learned about theism from Dawkins? Why not also go to the Amish to learn about technology? That would be equally bright. ;-)
First, I don't think you could have a living human being with that particular configuration. But I get your main point. Second, I don't reject that there might be a possible proof of God's existence: I just don't personally know of one, and suspect there isn't one out there. I personally might find that rather convincing. But the point isn't my own feelings, but what this means for science. There would be nothing inconsistent about pointing out some massively improbable event: What do you think a "miracle" is? Isn't that precisely what theists are supposed to be producing on demand, according to people like Dawkins? So what would be intellectually dishonest about pointing to such a thing? Third, I've noticed you agreed that while such DNA would indeed be improbable, it wouldn't satisfy Dawkins assertion that some DNA pattern could prove a lack of paternity. That specific sequence would be improbable DNA, yes, but it wouldn't prove no sexual element was involved. Again, see my example above about Java code with future winning lottery numbers embedded: it might imply a supernatural origin, but wouldn't disprove human involvement -- which Dawkins demands. I've already spelled this point out. Yet you simply seem to be pretending it didn't exist. Or perhaps admitting Dawkins is wrong on this point. Feel free to clarify. Fourth, even if you had such a DNA set, how do you know Dawkins would believe it meant anything? I see a host of very improbable things in the universe, a whole set of variables which seem to be set improbably. How is that any less likely than some improbable set of DNA pairs? And if someone like Dawkins isn't impressed by one, why would he be impressed by the other? Indeed, from what I gather, it seems he's rather annoyed at arguments based on improbability. And how does anything you said related to my points about Dawkin's errors about the essential nature of science?
Why do I sometimes characterize many atheists as coming across as illogical and incoherant? I can't imagine... Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on November 25, 2006 03:41 AM There would be nothing inconsistent about pointing out some massively improbable event: What do you think a "miracle" is? For clarification, do most people define miracles as being only highly improbable events. Or does the term 'miracle' lump highly improbable events with events that seem physically impossible? In other words, do you see God's powers in this world as constrained by the laws of physics or no? Incidnetally, improved pictures of the 'face' in Cydonia look a lot less facelike. Posted by: Ryan on November 26, 2006 03:51 AM Karl Popper's falsification idea of science is useful but not a completely fundamental idea in science. Verification does exist. A good starting point I'd recommend for learning about this is Probability Theory: The Logic of Science by E.T. Jaynes. Posted by: Brendon on November 26, 2006 05:05 AM I too have experienced what could be classified as "miracles". One such was when my wife was pregnant with our daughter (first trimester). She is rh negative so we had blood titers done every other week. After one titer, they came to us and said their screening showed that she had been exposed to Rubella and they counseled us to have an abortion. Rubella in the first trimester almost always produced severe birth defects. We investigated and found that indeed, the Sunday before, a baby had been brought to the Nursery that had measles (my wife was working in the nursery to get ready for our first child). So we confirmed exposure. We went to the healing service at our church and had my wife anointed and prayed for. The next titer showed no Rubella. They went back and retested the previous sample (they always kept the last one for comparison purposes). It still showed Rubella. They didn't know what to say. Needless to say, our daughter had no birth defects. Posted by: William Meisheid on June 8, 2007 07:37 AM Add your two cents...
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I believe you are, at least partly, turning around Dawkins' argument about the virgin birth. In "The God Delusion" the argument is presented as part of a hypothetical illustration of how theists are often cherry picking when they want to invoke the support of scientific evidence and when they don't.
Finding DNA from Jesus which could indicate he didn't have a father (which means finding DNA with not 23 pairs but only 23 single chromosomes - or maybe 23 pairs of identical chromosomes) would definately be trumpeted all over by creationists and we would never hear the end of it. But when science does not support a creationist view, it is denounced as meaningless, insufficient, irrelevant (God is outside time and space) or other...
It is true that no particular DNA could prove with certainty that he had a human father, not as long as God can do anything He wants and thereby also create any kind of DNA He wants for His son.
He could then fool us, just like He has appearently done with chromosome no. 2, making it look as if it were spliced together by 2 chromosomes found in primates. Or as He has done with the light coming from distant stars, creating it enroute to Earth to make it look as if the universe is much older than 6.000 years.
A deceptive god. Congratulations!
Posted by: Dog Boots on November 24, 2006 09:20 PM