Current Features

Thomas Eagleton, Rest in Peace
Potty Mouths Amok
Michael Moore IS "Roger"
Jesus Tomb & The Acts of Philip
New York Times on "Early Christian Gospels"
Chiang Kai-shek, Mao, and the Japanese Invasion
The Appalling Ignorance of ProgressiveU
Richard Dawkins Dispells Improbabilities
"Lost Tomb of Jesus" Coverage
Durham Wonderland's Dissent
Kosovo: Did We Back the Wrong Side?
North Korean Abductions

Read the Front Page

Topics

Big Brother
Blogging
Computers and Technology
Crime and Punishment
Education
Entertainment
Europe
Everything You Know is Wrong
Faith and Philosophy
Faith and Politics
Features
France
Fun
General
Happy Stuff
Health
History
Human Rights
Humor
International
Iraq
Left Versus Right
Media Bias
Personal Notes
Politics
Product Reviews
Quick Alerts
Quixtar
Racism
Science
Science Fiction
Sexuality
Sick & Wrong Department
Society
The Arab Street
The Arts
The Church of Gaia
Travel
Words, Words, Words
Your Money

Archives

March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003

Search


The Blogosphere

BitsBlog
Beyond the Rim
Common Sense and Wonder
Dissecting Leftism
Drive-Thru Musings
FunMurphys.com
Insignificant Thoughts
Insomnomaniac
Investor Blogger
Iowa Geek
La Shawn Barber
The Littlest Apologist
Mark D. Roberts
Muddling Towards Maturity
Quixtar Blog
Quixtar Sucks
The Right Scale
Sinking in Quixand


Ya Gotta Have Faith!

I've noticed there are two different ways the word "faith" is used.

First, there's a religious sense, in which many people -- both religious and non-religious -- seem to be saying faith is when you believe in something for which there is no evidence at all, or even contrary to available evidence. In this sense, faith preceeds reason and evidence.

Then there's the more typical use of the word, which we use for every single other topic in life except religion. In this usage, faith is always based on solid evidence, but simply falls short of "proof". In this usage, faith simply follows reason and evidence, but is willing to grant it one step further.

Let's say someone told me my wife was having an affair. I respond by saying: "No, I have faith in her that she'd never do that." Do I mean I have no evidence about her? No: I probably have years of experience with her. To the contrary, I know, from my experiences and evidence, that's the kind of thing she'd be very, very unlikely to do.

Yet it's true I cannot absolutely prove she is faithful, unless I'm having a PI trail her (which would imply I didn't have much faith in her at all). This kind of "faith" refers to a reasonable extrapolation from available information -- when we can't yet know either answer for sure.

Here's another use: An investor says he has "faith" in the stock market. Does he mean that it is a blind belief it is good, even though there's no evidence? Does he mean, by sheer force of will, he overcomes a total lack of evidence, or even evidence to the contrary?

Or does he mean he has solid historical evidence that long-term investors have almost always made money in the stock market in the past, even in the Great Depression -- and thus he thinks this is a good bet, even though he can't absolutely prove what will happen next year?


So I have "faith" in God. But it's not a blind kind of will-to-believe thing. It's simply the only reasonable conclusion I feel I could come to, given the evidence that I've encountered -- the second kind.


I don't think there are any definitive proofs for the theistic God. So, of course, let's admit theists believe in something they can't prove. But are there any proofs that there is no God out there? No, not that way either. So any opinion on God must involve a bit of "faith", though the average atheist, in my experience, gets really annoyed when you point that out.

(Hence the word games they've stared playing in recent years.)

I was raised as a Christian, but at some point I wondered if it was really right. I mean -- with all the religions out in the world (not to mention ones people have never imagined) -- what were the odds the one I happened to be born into was true?

So I embarked on a long quest, and specifially considered changing my belief to atheism, which seemed the most reasonable alternative. And, after all, atheistic scientists like Carl Sagan seemed to come off as rather smug about it, so I reasoned they must have known something I didn't. And I loved science...

What I found astounded me: To make a long story short, I found that atheists, and atheistic arguments, were often deeply irrational. As I was taking classes in formal reasoning at the time, and as I knew genuine theistic beliefs, I found their straw men fallacies and circular arguments easy to spot. And often, as I note here, they often didn't even respond to obvious counter-answers, which earned them even more demerit points.

Then, in comparison, I read some C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, and others, which, although I sometimes disagreed with at points, I found to be much more lucid. And there was a marked difference in tone: Lewis would simply answer the critics' various points. But those critics often came across as deeply insulting and angry towards their opponents. Irrational + angry = not good stuff.

And most anti-theistic arguments were simply refutations of various Catholic beliefs and actions, which even I, as a theist, disbelieved or disapproved.

So I never did see an absolute "proof" of God's existence, nor a good reason to become an atheist. (In fact, I never figured out how atheists were quite so sure they'd proven a negative. Nor did they seem to have anything non-circular to say to justify that stance.) I just noticed that the Christian apologists appeared to be playing straighter than their atheistic critics. So I went back to the side which seemed far more intellectually honest, and seemed to have better evidence, even though the evidence for both sides fell short of "proof".

Besides all this, from what I knew about the universe (I'd been an avid fan of science, even reading about quantum physics and black holes in the seventh grade), it seemed grossly improbable that anything existed at all: the subjective impression the evidence gives me is that of a mind behind it all.

And I also had a few supernatural experiences around that time.

So from my point of view, I'm a theist because that actually seemed to be the position which required less faith, and seemed to explain far more things.

So, while I respect those who do so, I myself never answer critical arguments by referring to faith. My arguments are almost always based in things that I believe anyone, from any faith, should be able to see. Because of my own experiences, I expect that evidence should be able to persuade reasonable people.

I know that I might be unusual this way: I have brothers and sisters who have always believed and never went through my own questions, and perhaps that's even better. In a way, I'm the Thomas who needed to examine the evidence for Jesus's crucifixion. But Jesus didn't fail to answer Thomas either: he was willing to go there if Thomas needed that.

And that can be helpful too, because there are other sceptics out there who need to approach it that way too, and we can honestly testify as to the questions we've asked and the answers we've found. The parts of the body aren't "better" than one another: they each simply play a different role.

So God bless you all -- and if you have any questions, you're more than welcomed to ask. I can't claim to know all the answers, but I'll at least try to be honest with you. Take care, friends.

Comments

Well I think you make good points.

But I can say I was also raised super christian and was an alterboy for 5 years growing up. If we missed a sunday there was hell to pay. anyway i too started questioning these things and i have found many answers not in atheism but in comparative religion and comparative mythology.

All religions come and go. All religions think that theirs is the best and / or the only true religion, currently and throughout time. All religions where started to either bring order to chaos or peace to violence and all morphed over time into tools of statecraft and even agents of empire. Not all religions have a god or is that the definition. A philosophy that is widely held in a society that helps shape the societies moral order and identity but has no god at its center is it a religion?. i don't know the answer to that. and i don't have a spell checker here.

Zarathustrianism lasted for well over 2,000 years it is gone now. Osirism lasted almost 3,000 years and it is gone also. I think christianity as it's usefulness to society as a whole becomes less and less and as people grow to realize how much of a tool of statecraft christianity is/was, it too will also go away. I mean you can actually find a few thousand who practice zarathustrianism today and in 500 or 1,00 years one will say that about christianity also.

If holding a myth or a belief serves society hold it, but when it doesn't, either change it or abandon it. Well over 100 religions have been born and died out or morphed into something else. All religion holders think theirs will last. For about 1,000 years christianity was based on works. for almost 200 years it was based on grace and for the last 500 or so years it has been based on faith. So it has already morphed dramatically but we as humans living now only see this small snapshot from our chronocentric perspective.

I can point to many of the contemporary religions and beliefs that were around with jesus and for the next 350 years that mostly shaped christianity. They just lifted their systems of social influence, moral direction and or geopolitical sociopolitical unification right from those other beliefs that fit their needs. Along with some minor innovations. Heck in 900 bc greeks were talking about man's need for hope, sin and virtues and rewards and punishments in the ever after. Heck the Phoenicians were obsessed with virgin births for their gods and even their pastors long long before the christian era. And hope and fate and some cocktail of shame, guilt, and honor were in many much older religions still.

Millennialism comes from the mahabarata and it was said that every so often when Man would accumulate so much sin vishnu would come down and become embodied in a man for us to understand him and he would peak to us and teach us and bring us out of our sin. and well he would probably need to come every thousand years or so. and well Divine revelation comes from zarathusrianism and very much of that stuff from genesis to moses through to many of jesus sayings come directly from the teachings and writings of zarathustra. and eerily so. painfully so at first but now it has become liberating to read all that stuff. John calvin once said that reading the bible and only the bible causes something called Learned Ignorance. And john calvin is one of the 3 fathers of the christian protest movement. hardly someone against christianity and yet that is a direct quote of his. He thought in Christianity's avoidance of intellectual development of christians lye the seeds of Christianity's Achilles heal. and yet we see that modern christianity has grown increasingly hostile towards intellectual and scientific understanding. To the point it even disparages it and denies it, now. We don't even remember the lessons of our church fathers.

When i first heard of dan brown and the davinci code i was pretty upset and thought it was so disrespectful towards god, but i have since come to learn it was actually much worse then what dan brown said. Constantine not only called a conference of bishops and satraps and cardinals and pastors and statesmen (who where ALL on Rome's payroll) to vote on who god was. He actually arrested or did not invite those who he knew would disagree with his version of who he thought god was. They voted on many things about what was christianity and worse who and what god and jesus were. like was he man, half man/half god, all man/all god etc... the all carnate and all incarnate version of god won the vote and so that is how we see jesus. (look up the homoousian debates(sp)). The greeks said in the Gia religion that was around during the Mycenaean era 1,600 to 1,100 bce or so that Gia had sex with a mortal man and she begot a half mortal man and half divine man and though he looked like all men of the day he was endowed with special miraculous powers. One power was that he could walk through water without getting wet and another was that he could make food appear on demand.

There is almost not a phrase nor a concept in both the old and new testament i can not point to in other much much more ancient or contemporaneous religions. Much of the bible comes from 4 major sources, the mahabarata from 3k+ bc, the avesta from about 1,750 bc and the platonic & zenoic writings of 300+/- bc along with various pagan and natural religions that existed at that time in the roman empire. I believe there is a god but all of them have been man made. And all of them have just incorporated the various theotic and non theotic beliefs contemporary to the time combined with needs for social and moral and geopolitical unification, throw in some guilt and shame and a little superstition and myth, with some control of woman with bits of history and business and ethno/politico-centrism along with needs for chaos - violence - class management with the obligatory hero at the center with some special powers and special effects. And well I just defined almost every single religion.

But Jesus is King!

Posted by: alice on January 17, 2007 02:43 AM

Add your two cents...

The comment rules will apply. Please post only once.

















« Not-Hearing: Two Examples | Front Page | Page Two | America: A Christian Nation? »