America: A Christian Nation?
History
| January 15, 2007
| Tim
That's a hotly-contested question these days. There are, of course, many possible answers depending on how you look at it. Most of them boil down to "yes."
First, let's state the obvious: One of the wonderful and glorious things about the USA is that we have no "established" church -- no officially sanctioned religious sect. People of all religions (or none) are entitled to the same respect under the law.
Amen!
But it would certainly be fair to say the US is a "Christian" nation in the demographic sense -- in the same way we'd call Malaysia a "Muslim" nation -- since (according to the CIA world factbook) at least 76% of the nation identifies as Catholic or Protestant, and probably more if you include many smaller Christian-flavored sects.
And historically?
The US was not founded as an explicitly Christian nation, but it certainly was founded on many Christian and Deistic principles, and thus, whatever you think of those two religious views, principles derived from them were indeed encoded into our constitution and laws.
Further, I'd like to again address the annoying myth that insists the founders were mostly secular Deists who were hostile to religion.
First, only a tiny minority were deists -- of any sort. And even fewer of them were classical deists, who consistently disbelieved in miracles. And only one of them (Paine) was openly hostile to the Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson, for example, basicly turned Washington DC into a huge church each Sundays, holding religious services in many government buildings!
I love adherents.com -- lots of fun religious statistics there. Including this one: the religions of the Founding Fathers. Mostly deists? Not at all. The overall list of Founding Fathers indicates that 93.8% of them were members of a Christian denomination; only a few (4 by my count, plus possibly Thomas Paine, who wasn't a "Founder" per se, but played important roles) could be called "Deists" at the time. (Franklin later apparently abandoned Deism.)
And yes, Washington, though he attended church faithfully, was secretive about his own beliefs and wasn't quite an orthodox Christian. But neither, at the end, was he a Deist -- as he'd been quite convinced by his wartime experiences that God ("Providence") did indeed meddle in the affairs of men, and had done so in the founding of this nation.
So, looking at that amazingly high percentage, we can indeed say this country was founded by Christians: there's simply no escaping it, however much we may desire to rewrite the past. This is a pluralistic nation, founded by Christians, and mostly occupied by Christians, who felt it was best to create it that way for the benefit of all people -- Christian, Buddhist, Jewish, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, or otherwise. And still do.
You seem to be fairly off base here. You say that Jefferson turned DC into a church every sunday yet offer no proof. Jefferson was at best pantheist and more than likely atheist by his own account.
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp July 30, 1816, denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity and suggesting it to be so riddled in falsehood that only an authoritarian figure could decipher its meaning and, with a firm grip on people's spiritual and mental freedoms, thus convince the people of its truthfulness
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"A professorship of theology should have no place in our institution."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, October 7, 1814, referring to the University of Virginia
Citing:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm
http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
http://atheistempire.com/greatminds/quotes.php?author=2
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
As well as references contained in quote explanations.
So as you have interpretted this founding father so amazingly poorly you've left little credence to the rest of your "article" This country was not founded as a Christian Nation, The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 clearly states in Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
This was unanimously passed during Washington's administration with a Senate full of founding fathers, it was proclaimed to the nation by John Adams.
Citing:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm
I have included of course some opinions contrary to my own however I feel that the weight of the evidence is undeniable. This of course makes no difference, the place from which you argue is one of faith and depends not upon fact, no matter how abundant or apparent.
Dear incredibly brave anonymous secularist,
You say that Jefferson turned DC into a church every sunday yet offer no proof.
I have provided you with a link to a Library of Congress exhibit documenting precisely that. (And can provide more such references if needed.) I should think it would at least constitute evidence to a reasonably open-minded person.
If you'd like to give evidence that the Library of Congress's documentation of history is a tiny spoke in a vast right-wing conspiracy, by all means have at it. But let's at least pay a bit of attention to the hyperlinks we've been offered, shall we?
Jefferson was at best pantheist and more than likely atheist by his own account.
Jefferson, by his own account, considered himself a "Christian": "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel..." But by saying so, he didn't mean he was a standard mainstream Christian.
Like most historical obeservers, I count Jefferson as a deist -- as I stated above. And as your quotes correctly attest, he was also often critical of the role of the clergy. Yet: So what? I am too, at times. Does that make me an enemy of religion?
Nor does any of this refute the evidence I've produced that Jefferson turned DC into a church each Sunday. Is it too difficult for you to understand that some people have held nuanced views on subjects, including religion, which can include both critical and supportive aspects?
You must look at the whole picture, friend, not simply blindly parrot a few quotes from an atheistic website, ripped completely from their historical context. Jefferson was a complex man, not the paper-thin secularist charicature you've apparently been indoctrinated with.
So as you have interpretted this founding father so amazingly poorly...
Please read the article above; none of it rests on "interpreting" Jefferson as anything but a deist -- and that itself is almost tangential my actual argument, which you seem to have missed.
This country was not founded as a Christian Nation...
I have already stated that the US has "no official religious sect" and "The US was not founded as an explicitly Christian nation."
Does reading comprehension disappear when one becomes an avid secularist?
The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 clearly states...
Every time I debate an anti-theist, it re-enforces my beliefs that once a person becomes angry about God, rationality and common sense suffer.
For example, when you become an anti-theist, you apparently suddenly start to believe that "Treaty of Tripoli" is (a) our company's founding document, and (b) the clearest possible statement about it's author's (George Washington's) beliefs.
Me, being a dumb theist, I'm able to note that it's a treaty with a Muslim nation. As such, and given the tensions I described here Washington would of course be quick to point to the pluralist nature of our government.
Further, if you'd read the treaty yourself (you even cited it) you'd see that the main thrust of the statement is to point out that we don't have an official religion would conflict with theirs:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims]...
I agree entirely. As I said (and you overlooked) the US was not founded as an officially Christian nation -- we do not have a national religion -- and therefore, our government does not have a religious conflict with those who practice of other religions.
Next, regarding which document most clearly elucidates the beliefs our country was founded on: You have offered the "Treaty of Tripoli". I, on the other hand, being a dumb theist, would suggest that the Declaration of Independence would be the document which created the US as a country.
If you'd read it (and you really should, sometime), you'd discover it claims "Nature and Nature's God" entitled our founders to form a new nation, that God created all men equal, that God granted them with "unalienable" rights, and God created governments for the purpose of safeguarding these rights. It also states that God is the "Supreme Judge" of the world.
And I'm not very smart, but I'm pretty sure this document was drafted and signed by a number of "Founding Fathers" and thus reflected their understanding of why we were entitled to have our own country. ;-)
And finally, regarding Washington's own beliefs about the importance of religion, feel free, sometime, to read his farewell address.
Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity.
I'd be the first to say Washington was not an orthodox Christian, but he's much closer to that than to an atheist who believes religion is a harm, not a help, to the nation.
One of the most amusing (yet also sad) things about this debate is that secularists seem to think we're living in the United States of Jefferson -- and only half of Jefferson at that.
Jefferson was indeed a founding father. But if you'd your mind open a bit, and actually follow some of the links I've supplied, you'd discover that Jefferson was only one of 200+ plus founders. It's true that Jefferson's beliefs were important, but also true that his outlook was hardly typical of the other 203.
Further, to imply Jefferson was the main force behind our laws is absurd: he wasn't even in the country our Constitution was drafted, nor did he debate it, nor vote upon it.
Finally, it's stupid to just endlessly repeat the same out-of-context statements, carefully avoiding any contrary evidence. Atheistic web pages often accuse their opponents of quoting of out context, but they're apparently also quite good at it.
These men, our Founding Fathers, knew well the problems associated with state churches: for many of them, it was the reason they'd left Europe. But they were also generally religious, and their views -- even those of the Deists -- were deeply influenced by Christian belief.
Jefferson hated the clergy and disbelieved in miracles. Yet he also thought Jesus was the wisest philosopher who ever lived on the earth, appropriated Federal money for missionaries, and used the Federal buildings as houses of worship.
Jefferson was not an orthodox Christian, but he was far closer to them, and friendlier to them, than the rabid secularists of today.
But, as I've already pointed out, this has almost nothing to do with the arguments I've actually offered.
As a Canadian, living close by geographically but less so in viewing the world, I wonder why the topic of "a Christian nation" is relevant to faith and philosphy. Certainly there were benefits to having a Christian worldview and a somewhat homogenous view of morality in gaining concesus on many of the fundamentals of how the society would operate. This cohesion was also necessary for democracy, as conceptualized by the Founding Fathers, to work.
"In institutions with well-established cultures...democracy can be used as a tool to encourage cooperation...[however] democracy will not work except where people agree strongly on what they want and the rules of cause and effect. The very functioning of democracy depends upon the existence of strong cultural beliefs that are often rooted in the teachings of certain religions. ...democracy doesn't work when the enabling preconditions don't exist" (Harvard Business Review Oct. 2006, The Tools of Cooperation and Change, Clayton Christensen, Matt Marx, Howard Stevenson; pg. 78).
Britian and other nations were also Christian (demographically and in worldview -your criteria). But, the Founding Fathers showed a certain brilliance in understanding these dynamics of change and cooperation although their efforts were largely reactionary to the governmental and religious weaknesses they had experienced and observed in the European sphere. They were not writing on a blank slate.
The main distinction was actually a seperation of Church and State based on their understanding of how the negative aspects they had observed when these two powerbases were intertwined had played out in society. They being of European origin, really had no other religion that could reasonably be expected to be espoused by the immigrant inhabitants of what was becoming the United States.
It seems that one of the biggest negatives of crafting things as they did, was it created a dichotomy between how citizens felt/feel about themselves in terms of justice and personal rights and how that has found expression (or violation) in terms of the indigenous population and the rest of the world. The thinking seems to commonly be: 'If you don't by into our "Christian" national philosophy, we have no obligation to treat you according to those values'. So, how does this expression of tribalism really mitigated by the fact that the United States is a "Christian nation"? The Christian values merely became a new rallying point for exclusion and self-exaltation.
While it must be conceded that the default worldview of those crafting the new nation was Christian, in fact, a socio-politico experiment of a modified European system was underway -that being non-religious in structure, but whose value systems (equality of mankind, universal justice etc.) were informed by Christianity.
Christianity at its core is about giving away power and changing things fundamentally at the core -both as people, families and communities. This could never be legislated as it will always stand in a measure of judgement about what is happening at the power level.
Legitimate arguement could be posited that would show that the success of the United States is based as much on the violation of human rights as it was the philophical foundation of the nation. Large denominations like the Southern Baptist, who represent a large Christian demographic and political gravitational center, began as a breakaway from the General Baptists over the issue of ministers owning slaves. These and other historical expressions of "Americanism" have not been, in my view, factored adequately into this debate. Has our journey not been as marred as the European nations in terms of crusades?
While we could seek to discuss what is "on the books" compared to human failing, the reality is, that the notion of a "Christian nation" is only as viable as the expression of that reality in the lives of its citizens and communities.
How arrogant ! Another educated individual who fails basic history despite his/her education.
The USA was, and in fact, founded as a Christian nation. Even the European secularists living in their post Christian era have failed to eradicate that from the history books. So much is written of the reasons for the founding of this country related to the pursuit of various denominations of the Christian religion that it can not be condensed here.
Quote and misquote all you want to an internet audience about the founding of this country. It is ridiculous to try and influence opinion by offering revisionist history lessons. History has been dumbed down, but accurate texts still remain for those who seek actual knowledge.
None of us is yet ready for the truth of christianity to be revealed. However history has been revealed. What is the truth, is that this country was founded as a christian nation.
Last interjection. "One nation under god" was inserted into the pledge of allegiance,in the 50s ostensibly to set us apart from non believers (communists, et. al.) Allah, Buddah, Jehovah, etc. were not included.
What is the purpose of denying the USA is a christian nation founded on christian beliefs? Politics? Gay rights?
Steve
Take your sun god dogma and shove it right up your Christian asses!!!!
Wow. Got me there "Freethinker"! I am stunned by your reasoning skills.
What happened, did you encounter evidence which caused cognitive dissonance? You know the best way to make an uncomfortable fact go away, don't you? Insult someone! And if you insult them really hard, reality will bend to your wishes!
No, really: it's like a "freethinker" version of "the secret".
(Speaking of dogmas, notice how he parrots that the dogma — right out of Jared Loughner's favorite movie — that the Christian God is a "sun god"? You just wind them up, program them, get their anger going, point them in the right direction, and let 'er rip. Instant and mindless obedience!)
Yes, most of the founding fathers claimed Christianity but were smart enough to know that mixing government and religions will not work.
They knew that science was the emerging way, not dogma.
I am surprised that so many on both sides get so fired up while claiming ot use facts. This is a sign of dogmatic belief, not in an evidential based life.
Teaching comparative religion has shown me that some will not reason, some will not be reasoned with, some think reason is the devil's tool, some think all believers have been duped.
Look, we better learn to get along. I am okay with your belief until you decide the you have the right - based on anything -- to harm me.
There is a huge range in which we can co-exist it is radical fundamental anything that is at the margins and is dangerous -- then no matter who you are, I will resist you.
Yes, most of the founding fathers claimed Christianity but were smart enough...
Ah, yes: "but were smart enough". Nice touch there. (Not noticing any condescension at all here, nope!) Also works well with the "claimed", no?
...to know that mixing government and religions will not work...
Depends what you mean: Ever notice that the legislatures opened with prayer? Ben Franklin -- an alleged deist -- insisted prayers be offered at the constitutional convention. It was a regular practice have government-proclaimed days of prayer and fasting. As noted above, Jefferson held religious services in public buildings. And George Washington insisted that we could not divorce good governance from religion. But did they want one established church as the state church? No!
So it sounds like your view of "mixing government and religions" is very different than theirs. They "mixed" religious convictions with the business of governing all the time -- they just didn't want the state itself to take sides regarding a particular church.
They knew that science was the emerging way, not dogma.
"Science is the way, not dogma": Er, um: did you notice that that, itself, is a dogma?
Can you produce even one quote from the founding fathers which shows they got their most important values from science? I can give you a raft of quotes which show they didn't.
I am surprised that so many on both sides get so fired up while claiming ot use facts... This is a sign of dogmatic belief, not in an evidential based life.
Let me get this straight: these people who surprise you -- who quote "facts" (about which they seem concerned, for some reason) -- are living by "dogma" -- and you, who seemingly dismiss the importance of using "facts" in argument -- are thus living an "evidential based life"???
Ken, the "use of facts" indicates the opposite of a dogmatic belief, which needs no facts to support it. You should look into those "facts" to see if they're true or false, not simply dismiss the use of them as a sign of "dogma". It seems you're doing the very thing you decry.
Teaching comparative religion...
I don't mean to be harsh, but your comments here give me a bit of concern for your students.
Look, we better learn to get along. I am okay with your belief until you decide the you have the right - based on anything -- to harm me.
There is no suggestion here -- not even a hint -- that anyone needs to be killed (or harmed, or restrained in any way) for having wrong beliefs.
Speaking of surprises, this sort of comment surprises me: Most people do get along: probably 99% of Americans (to cite a country with which I'm familiar) wouldn't want someone killed for holding the wrong beliefs. (And those few who would, would probably do it over politics, not religion.)
So I'm surprised that every time someone mentions Christianity (for example, discussing the religious outlook of the US Founders), someone chimes in with: "We'd better stop killing each other!" -- as if the sort of people who discuss these things particularly need that lesson.
On the other hand, I am more than a bit troubled to see a few members of the secular elite -- Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins in particular, but others as well -- suggesting people need to be killed (Harris, for example) or imprisoned (Dawkins), or otherwise disenfranchised for holding or teaching beliefs they consider wrong. Considering the number of preachy "Tolerance!" bumper stickers I see, I might expect more concerned outcry against them. (Can you think of any respected Christian who has proposed the kind of things Harris and Dawkins regularly suggest?)
So: Do you post these sort of comments among secularists, too? I suggest this because I would strongly suspect that your fellow faculty members, on average, would be considerably more likely to support imposing legal sanctions based on beliefs than, say, the people who attend my church.
There is a huge range in which we can co-exist it is radical fundamental anything that is at the margins and is dangerous -- then no matter who you are, I will resist you.
So, I'm just curious: Since you seem imply you get your values from science (instead of religion) -- and you say you believe in producing evidence for one's assertions...
From which bit of science did you get the belief that it is not-okay to harm others for one's belief? Again, I agree with you on this point, but I believe it is wrong because God exists (for which I'd be glad to offer evidence, if you ask), and God doesn't want us murdering each other.
So, since I get my moral values from evidence-based religious convictions, and you get yours from "science", how did you conclude it was wrong or dangerous to hold what you'd call "radical" or "marginal" religious beliefs?
I'm really curious on this point.
Looking forward to hearing your reason and evidence!
This is quite disappointing. I don't know if its true or not, but I do feel like it is exaggerated and generalized. For one, how would we even define Christianity today? It seems everyone I talk to who sounds like they are Christian when describing their beliefs says they are not Christian.
Furthermore, I have 3 friends who are Atheist, 1 Buddhist (an American-born one may I add), innumerable Agnostics, 1 Zoroastrian and 1 Wikkan.
Also, what with the controversy of gay rights, womens' rights, and our modern world today, it seems we are leaving behind more traditional sects of Christianity. America is such a culturally diverse nation, constantly clashing and mixing ideas. There's no way we're a Christian nation. That's about as accurate as saying we're a white nation, or a patriotic nation. Or a rich nation.
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You seem to be fairly off base here. You say that Jefferson turned DC into a church every sunday yet offer no proof. Jefferson was at best pantheist and more than likely atheist by his own account.
"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp July 30, 1816, denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity and suggesting it to be so riddled in falsehood that only an authoritarian figure could decipher its meaning and, with a firm grip on people's spiritual and mental freedoms, thus convince the people of its truthfulness
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Woods (undated), referring to "our particular superstition," Christianity
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"A professorship of theology should have no place in our institution."
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, October 7, 1814, referring to the University of Virginia
Citing:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm
http://nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
http://atheistempire.com/greatminds/quotes.php?author=2
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson
As well as references contained in quote explanations.
So as you have interpretted this founding father so amazingly poorly you've left little credence to the rest of your "article" This country was not founded as a Christian Nation, The Treaty of Tripoli 1796 clearly states in Article 11:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"
This was unanimously passed during Washington's administration with a Senate full of founding fathers, it was proclaimed to the nation by John Adams.
Citing:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm
I have included of course some opinions contrary to my own however I feel that the weight of the evidence is undeniable. This of course makes no difference, the place from which you argue is one of faith and depends not upon fact, no matter how abundant or apparent.
Posted by: on February 10, 2007 10:34 PM