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I'm poised at my keyboard, quickly typing this missive because I want you, my dear reader, to know there's a war on for the American mind, concerning Islamism. Perhaps I overstate: there's a clueless and morally bankrupt idea going around, one I am astonished to see so many of my would-be allies adopt so easily. An idea which rests upon moral confusion, ignorance of our emeny, and ignorance of history. Set-UpRecently, Ron Paul made waves with the following statement concerning 9/11:
In essence, the primary responsibility for what's gone wrong in the mideast is the US itself, and our foreign policy. And if we simply stopped meddling in the world -- i.e. exerting any influence -- these things most likely never would have happened. Am I overstating Paul's position? I am not. Paul himself says it: Our policy was a major contributing factor. Unless we're being funny with words, this means that our absence likely would have prevented the outcome of which he speaks. Dr. Paul is hardly alone on this. In addition to being in company with MoveOn.org, Cindy Sheehan, Socialists, and other elements of the extreme left (shouldn't it cause one to question a bit, finding one's self in such company?) there are a few others on the "right" who agree. Lew Rockwell, for example:
TakedownSadly, from my vantage point, it seems Ron Paul is, on this particular point, a clueless idiot, and Lew Rockwell is similarly confused. Regular readers (both of you) know I do not deploy the words "clueless idiot" with any frequency. (To the contrary, it appears I almost never call people "idiot".) So why I am so annoyed? Because I can't tolerate any criticism of my country, as Mr. Rockwell insists? Please: you don't know me very well -- and haven't heard many of my rants -- if you think that. No: my issue is that I expect this kind of narrative from the left (and have regularly received it, thank you) but I am somewhat unnerved by people who ought to know better having swallowed what is fundamentally leftist rhetoric. So let me move from hurling invective, and make the case which I suspect will probably lead you to a similar conclusion. Problem #1: Dr. Paul is wrong about the Iranian revolutionaries.Dr. Paul insists that his listeners should "listen to" our enemies who hate us. The core of Dr. Paul's argument, as stated, is that the hostage-takers of the Carter era were, in fact, motivated (angered!) by the removal of one Mohammad Mossadeq, Prime Minister of Iran circa early 1950s. Yet had Dr. Paul showed a bit of interest in Iranian history, and taken his own advice, he would have discovered that the Mullahs who took power in the 1979 revolution were Shia Islamists who hated Mossadeq. To quote Amir Taheri, an Iranian:
(Does it tell us something that Taheri wrote this to correct President Clinton? -- and that this is now a staple among certain fringe elements of the right?) Mohammad Mohaddesin provides more background material:
Problem #2: A wrong view of Mossadeq.The previous error is utterly fatal to the argument Paul offers (and those on the left he parrots): if the Mullahs hated Mossadeq as much as the Shah, there goes the whole "blowback" motive for the Iranian Revolution of '79, built, as Paul has it, on anger towards our alleged removal of Mossadeq, their hero. But perhaps we can repair the argument a bit by ignoring Dr. Paul's blunder and asserting that Mossadeq was at least an elected pro-Western democrat, and it was a bad thing for us to overthrow the Iranian Constitution, intervene (so the narrative goes) and remove him from office. But again, another few moments of historical review tears this narrative to shreds. It's true Mossadeq was elected to Parliament -- at one point in his career. But by 1952, he had been appointed Prime Minister (by the Shah), and was supported by extremist Islamist and Communist (Tudeh) parties. He had nationalized oil production, seized farms and instituted centralized agricultural planning, had dissolved the elected Parliament (!) and had unconstitutionally seized control of the military (!!). [1] I know there are some who view Mossadeq's seizure of farms and oil assets as a Good and Noble thing, but I'm in the camp who sees it as theft and a precursor to despotic rule. (And twice as much towards those who dissolve Parliaments and seize control of the military!) (Side note: Do you think if George Bush had dissolved Congress and seized control of the military (and farms) we'd be calling him an "elected" "legimate" and "democratic" leader? So it's absurd that people like the left and Dr. Paul (a supposed libertarian!) confer these attributes to Mossadegh!) And people who imagine Mossadeq to have been warm, cuddly, and pro-Western (and think anti-Western sentiments are something new to the mideast, caused by "CIA blowback") are similarly mistaken. To quote a 1951 Time magazine article:
To add a bit of context, the Soviet Army had actually invaded Iran, and was massively supporting the Iranian Tudeh (Communist) party. Britain, in contrast, was leading an oil embargo. So either Time or Mossadeq (it's hard to tell which) clearly thought the USSR was the lesser of the two evils. I doubt very much that such a man, had he stayed in power, would have been Our Dear Friend, a Democrat, or exerted any other positive influence. If he wouldn't have used brutal measures to hold onto power (similar to those used by the Shah), he most likely would have been overtaken by either his Islamist or Communist allies -- so perhaps we could have had the Mullahs in charge of Iran 25 years earlier! (Or seen Iran become a Soviet satellite!) The core failure of leftism is a chronic inability to ask: "Then what?" But I am increasingly observing that libertarians, also, can fall under the spell of shortsighted ideas: "If just this one thing were changed, then all would be wonderful..." Error #3: Dr. Paul is wrong about US and CIA involvement.Like the FBI, the CIA was at one time trying to build a case for why the US needed yet another Federal bureaucracy of its sort. And, might I add, the CIA hasn't always been known as for its longstanding reputation for honesty about its own actions and effectivness. So I find it a bit odd that Ron Paul -- as one who supposedly distrusts such agencies -- is among those who apparently trust its testimony implicitly -- at least in this case. But there are others who think the CIA was prone to (no!) exaggerate at times, and, having learned about the economic conditions (think for a moment what centralized planning does to agriculture, and what a loss of all oil revenue would do to the Iranian economy) -- and sheer volume of people involved in Mossadeq's removal, I find myself among them in this case. And apparently, I'm in pretty good company:
Another problem with this narrative is that it gets the legal arguments wrong. Mossadeq is depicted as "elected", and the Shah, "installed" -- when, in fact it was it was Mossadeq himself who had violated the Iranian Constitution, and his removal, by the Shah, was entirely legal. Referring to Dr. Paul's apparent history advisor, President Clinton, Taheri again corrects the record:
Also, there's this:
And here is a first-hand account by the son of Mossadeq's chief opponent which also flatly contradicts the CIA's claims. Compare this with this self-aggrandizing snippet from Kermit Roosevelt, who claimed he had orchestrated the whole thing (on a mere $75,000?!?):
Sadly (as anyone who has read what the left puts out can observe), this bit of CIA propaganda has been helpful in stimulating anti-US sentiment. But it's sad to see a so-called conservative -- who should be cautious, not gullible -- endorsing and propagating a self-serving story which originated in the CIA itself. Error #4: Ron Paul doesn't remember the 1970s.Wouldn't it be great if we had a President who followed Ron Paul's suggestions? One who stopped supporting certain bad dictators, and withdrew US aid from them? Of course, we did have such a president, who pursued the policies Ron Paul advocates. His name was James Earl Carter, and the result of his withdrawl of support in Iran was ... The Iranian Revolution of 1979! This is, among other reasons, why I call Ron Paul an idiot. It's one thing to say, in a principled manner, that perhaps we ought not support bad people like the Shah (who was the lesser of three evils, but certainly was no angel) -- and accept whatever follows. At times, I'm tempted to embrace the same view. But it's quite another thing to suggest that the Revolution of '79 was primarily a result of American involvement in Iran. Indeed, the lesson should be the opposite: from the 1940s onward (and probably before), extremist Shia Ayatollahs have been chomping at the bit to impose their vision upon Iran. They simply took the first opportunity they had -- provided by the very policy Dr. Paul recommends. It's nice to view the world as a giant curio cabinet -- everything is where it is because we put it there, or accidentally knocked it over. But the world isn't like that: it's more like a huge chessboard with many players. When we stop playing, when we withdraw, things don't magically get better -- instead, other forces, often worse than our government (for some, such as Ron Paul and the left, it is hard to imagine anything worse!) move in instead. I'm NOT a huge fan of our present foreign policy. There are countries we support which, if I were in charge, I would withdraw from (South Korea, if they didn't vote us in by a large majority, and no MFN for China.) And there are causes we don't support which I would. (Ask me how quickly I'd install troops along our own border -- and in Southern Sudan.) But there's a difference between disagreeing over foreign policy, and living in a fantasy world. Ron Paul and the left live in a fantasy world -- where the US is apparently the worst force on the planet, and if we just left the world alone, it would leave us alone. (Go back and study Asia, Europe, and Russia during the 20th century, please -- you've utterly failed to learn anything from it.) Error #5: Ron Paul doesn't understand radical Islam.Ron Paul insists that we should listen to radical Islamists to learn what motivates them. But somehow, as someone who's at least put a modicum of effort in that direction, I can't help but suspect he hasn't taken his own advice. Does the understand what the Umma is? What sharia is? What geopolitical goals Islamists seek? It's true -- as he says -- that they hate the fact we can exert influence abroad. But that's only half the story: the other half is that they believe it is they who should be exerting that same influence. Not that such influence is inherantly bad, but that it inherantly belongs to them, alone. To quote one of the 9/11 hijackers -- who Ron Paul claims to understand:
Ron Paul often likes to say that the founding fathers didn't believe in sending our military abroad. In fact, President Jefferson had to send the Marines to Tripoli because Americans were being attacked and sold into slavery by Islamic Pirates who demanded, even back then, that we, as non-Muslims, pay tribute to them -- just as Moussaoui says today. (I'm sure there's a blame-America-first justification for the Barbary Pirates, too, but I'm not biting.) Regarding Osama bin Laden, it is true, as Ron Paul has said elsewhere, that he was offended by non-Muslims even setting foot on the Arab Peninsula. (Nevermind that they were invited by the Saudis, who rightly feared an attack from Saddam.) But why should Ron Paul stop there? Let's keep reading shall we?
Do you recognize those names? Osama is complaining that militant Islamist terrorist were arrested or killed, including in the USA! Following his logic, should we have abstained from these activities also, since they also apparently led to the "blowback" of 9/11? (Indeed, Sheik Omar is the man who planned the first world-trade center bombing in 1993. So it turns out one of our offenses which caused 9/11 was arresting those who planned the first such attack! One wonders what "blowback" Dr. Paul would cite to explain why we had it coming in 1993...) In this manifesto, OBL also complains that the Saudi government arrested supporters of terrorism (excuse me, Jihad) at the request of the US, and complains that non-Muslims live around Jerusalem. Should we not ask Saudis to arrest terrorists, and withdraw all support from Israel? Just asking. In this document OBL also gloats he was able to make the US withdraw when we were attacked:
And it was, in fact, this withdrawl which formed the heart of OBLs pro-jihad videos. But I don't think Ron Paul noticed that either -- it isn't one of the "root caues" he'd like to cite, I suspect. And, of course, the primary goal is not simply the removal of US troops from Saudi Arabia, but a global Jihad which will not end until all is Umma:
Want to look for "root causes"? Removal of the Kuffir from the mideast is only step #1. The plan doesn't end there. They're not simply incensed that the Saudis asked us to protect them against Iraq. The "root cause" here is that they're not ruling the world. This is not a new problem, brought about the recent US policy (though I'm frankly quite glad if we can take credit for some of their difficulties toward that end, of which they complained). This brings me to my final problem... Problem #5: Ron Paul displays very poor moral reasoning.If a woman is attacked in a parking lot, late at night, do we say she "deserved it" by being there? It's true, we might say that she should have exercised more caution, or that she took a foolish risk by not asking for help. But do we say she had moral culpability for her attack? No, we do not. Not when she was attacked by another human being. We hold her attacker responsible, however foolish we may think her. But what if the criminal is sitting at the edge of the parking lot, and plans to move into her house and office when he gets the chance? Do we start saying she should do whatever he wants? If he asks for the edges of the parking lot first, do we give it to him -- because he'll attack us if we don't? Then what? Is that how we think about the situation? It's how Ron Paul thinks about the situation. If Ron Paul wants to say we shouldn't be involved in any other countries, ever, then he simply needs to say so, in so many words. But this business of arguing where we should be involved based on it's ultimate effect to us (as dictated by a group of criminals who admit they "love death") is unhelpful to say the least, and morally problematic. First, you state your principle, then you apply it, regardless of outcome. Is it wrong to supply troops to an ally that asks for protection? Then simply say that. Or is it only wrong when they have extremists in their country who might attack us if we support them? Then, by all means Dr. Paul, please come out and say that too. I think we should support Taiwan. And you know what? China might hate and even attack us for it. "Blowback"? If you want, you can call it that. I call it principle -- the principle that it's better to support a democracy than a totalitarian state -- and that we should do so when possible. The world certainly won't love us for it -- but then again, I think it's immoral to seek such "love", lavished, as it so often is, upon the very worst examples of humanity. (Che Guevera, Yassir Arafat, Jimmy Carter, Hugo Chavez, etc. Sudan sits on the UN Human Rights committee, for heaven's sake!) Another example: I think a reasonable argument could be made for not putting troops in Saudi Arabia -- perhaps based on the fact they're not a democracy, and that a majority didn't vote to support our presence there. But that isn't the sort of argument Dr. Paul made: It was essentially that "blowback" -- the actions of criminals -- proves we did the wrong thing. And where, precisely, will he draw the line? Which complaint of theirs are valid? Just the ones that support his favored policies? Oh please: that's fallacious, not sound logic. I expect that from the left. But I'm writing because I'm seeing it on the right, and that truly bothers me. Odds and EndsThere are a few other problems worth answering. Displaying his moral idocy in full plumage, Ron Paul asks:
Again, I'd refer Ron Paul to various Islamist manifestos regarding whether being "free" might be an issue for some, or even the Qu'ran:
"Nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited" -- that why they fight us. (Which part of this is so hard for Dr. Paul to understand?) And concerning the second question, if I were living in America under a despot like Saddam, and, say, Denmark came over here and killed him, and was busy trying to make sure his followers -- and the French -- didn't gain power... why yes, Ron Paul, I would appreciate that. Is he saying he'd rather live under a home-grown dictator? Why yes, I do believe he's saying precisely that. Moral. Idiocy. And here's another prime example:
(Actually, I can, and it encourages me -- if we're making good choices. The entire Rwandan massacre could have been stopped by a few thousand dollars, and a few dozen bodyguards for the legitimately-elected moderate members of government who were slaughtered first.)
No, but that's because it's China, you idiot. If I lived in Iran (or Burma), and heard that the US were supporting my local Democracy Party, I'd hope I'd be grateful for the support. Indeed, I'm pretty sure the Poles weren't unhappy about Reagan's support for Lech Walesa. (And Ron Paul dares to claim Reagan's legacy?) And Lew Rockwell, while defending Ron Paul, gives the game away entirely, as he inadvertantly displays his non-biblical (and quite un-American) view of government:
The Roman government was, I think we could agree, quite a bit worse than the US government. (I mean, after all, Bush hasn't installed his horse as a Senator, as Caligula did.) Yet the Apostle Paul still believed that government was appointed by God as a servant of the people. Government was good, Paul taught, when it kept the peace and made bad people afraid. And of course it could be illegitimate also, too -- but that isn't what Rockwell is saying. He's not that nuanced. It is true that big government is ungodly. And that the US government is large. But it doesn't follow that every single function it carries out is therefore harmful or at odds with American values. And foreign policy -- Ron Paul's ignorance of the Constitution aside -- is indeed one of the legitimate domains of our national government. There are worse things out there than the US government. As as long as the North Korean government, the President of Iran, the General Assembly of the UN, German Greens, and radical Islamists hate and fear us (particularly those of us in "red" states), I figure something is still going right. But for Ron, Lew, and the left, it's the opposite: OBL's hatred of us must be, of course, be justified. OBL's moral judgement must be legimate. Back to Lew:
Really? What imperial lust? What are we getting, currently, from Iraq? What did we get from, say, Vietnam? Where was the profit in defending Korea? (We can drive Kias now???) Why did we support Poland against the USSR? Why did we risk our lives in Mogadishu? What "lust" did we go into Kosovo for? And how is Lew Rockwell's narrative, here, distinguishable from, say, Noam Chomsky's? (I'd love to have those questions answered.)
Yep, Lew Rockwell's found his Nazis and his real opponents: Red-state Christians. Amen Lew, Amen. Tyler, Welcome to the blog! Well, I've got to ask, *are* you a "liberal" who is "blind with Bush hatred"? I mean, below you express the idea that "Republicans" are getting rich off the Iraq war, and complain about the loss of government "safety nets". If you *are* such a person, why would it be wrong for someone (say me) to notice that? And if you aren't a "liberal", then I've got to say: You're a perfect example of how the left has basically won at this point in US history. You are repeating ideas created by leftists, ideas which the facts themselves contradict. Now, about that disagreement of ours... "US government is the enemy of the American people and their values." To a great degree he is right... If you're talking domestically, I agree with you: you've cited some terrific examples, and I agree with you 100% on those. But my comments weren't about our domestic policies: it was about foreign policy. In that realm, while our policies has certainly been flawed (and worse) at points, I think it's fair to say the overall impact of the US government (and nation) has been generally beneficial over the course of world history. That's entirely inconsistent with a foreign policy view of our government as "the enemy" of our values. But you and I apparently disagree there: it would seem (feel free to clarify) that you think the US government (and nation) has generally been a net *negative* contributor in world history.
Not in the slightest. You come across as too smart to say something that dumb... Perhaps we're working from a different set of facts, and different values. ... so I'd like to read more on why you don't think... manifest destiny... ... which was the belief that the nation of the US should exapand into the largely-empty land to the west. While I don't agree with every step of that process, I certainly don't think it was inherantly immoral to move beyond the original colonies. Are you actually saying you do? ... the Indians... I don't at all agree with how we treated the Indians. Nor slaves for that matter. But not all sins are "imperialism" -- that's a leftist idea. (And, as I stated above, I'm learning that the left has actually won: even "rightists" now parrot the ideas they created.) ... how we aquired Hawaii... If you want to understand the part of Hawaiian history the left doesn't generally tell you, you might want to familliarize yourself with this material. (Suggestion: read a bit more broadly than leftist sources. Yes, it can be work, but start by assuming there's another side and search for it. Then compare and do more research. Yes, it's time-consuming but worth it.) There were many other forces in the world than the US government (though not in leftist accounts, usually), and I completely understand why the majority in Hawaii -- not to mention many in the US -- didn't want to re-establish a monarchy* there. I can also understand why, given the active threat from the British and Japanese, so many wished (and voted) to become part of the US, and live under US protection. And contrary to what you've been probably told (or misled) to believe, the US government was not behind the revolution. (* Funny how the left always seems to end up arguing that everyone else should live under some form of dicatorship. I suppose the US revolution must have been illegitimate too, on those grounds.) ...an insanely funded military-industrial complex... I'm opposed to government pork for industries too -- but calling pork for farmers, paving companies, fishermen, etc. "imperialism" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? (I guess not!) And do you think we should have a big enough military to fight two wars at once? Or even one? Or is there no real reason to have an army today? Just asking. annexing Iraq(yes, we have.)... annex: to incorporate (a country or other territory) within the domain of a state If you really think Iraq is now part of the US, then you'll need to explain why we're not controlling their oil, and why people criticize Bush when Iraq's president has other priorties and does what he wants. And why we allowed free elections there. (Or did you forget about the blue fingers already?) never de-mobilizing from WWII... You know, during the cold war, there was no reason at all to keep troops in Germany, Japan, etc. No reason for those long-range bombers either. Nor DEW line radar systems. Except "imperialism", that is. The USSR? Josef Stalin? That was just all made up by the Neocons, I'm sure. Just like Islamic fundamentalism and 9/11 -- they created that too, right? Tell me seriously: Are you really just a conservative trying to *pretend* to sound like liberal, by pretending to be utterly ignorant about history? If so, that's not nice. worldwide military bases... Yeah: Japan's elected government doesn't want us there. Neither does Germany. (That's why Germans protested when we withdrew some of our troops a year or so ago.) Can you name one nation where we have a base where the government doesn't want us there? I guess if I ask a policeman to stand guard in my front yard, and he does so, it must mean we now live in a "police state" too, by your reasoning. Geez. You seem not to understand that "imperialism" means you control other countries. We don't: even in the cases where we've invaded other nations (Germany, Japan, Italy, France, South Korea), we've left these nations as autonomous states with a mind of their own -- governments which often do the exact opposite of what we'd wish.
Well, I frankly would be. I mean, seriously: What do you know about Rome? Do you realize how the "Pax Romana" was enforced? Or are you just intentionally stretching this analogy a bit?
(Hypocrically? I wasn't aware I believed something opposite of what I write here. Please let me know how you saw through my disguise!) But seriously: Have you bothered to even *read* the PNAC document? I wouldn't think so, considering that you're just (again) echoing the left's narrative as to what it says. I have. It basicly says that we shouldn't allow the Chinese to have a more effective military than ours. Are you opposed to that? I'm not, and my reasons have nothing to do with any "imperial lust" you'd like to envision I have. As I said above, there are worse things in the world than the US government. We're not perfect, but I'd rather have us be the stronger of the two. You feel otherwise?
Well, I guess we can see how closely Ron Paul supporters and the rabid left parallel each other. By saying "strategic placement for more war", you're arguing in a circle: You have to explain why it's more likely we went into Iraq for "profits" than for security reasons (however misplaced) -- simply saying "more war" doesn't explain which of the two was our main motivation. (And, of course, Iraq never posed a threat to the region nor does Iran pose one now -- that's all just a pretense inserted in our history books -- and memories -- by the "the rich" or "the neocons".) So tell me, if we went into Iraq for Haliburton, then how did they pay Al Gore to claim that Saddam was a menace in the mideast? Or Kerry? (Did they pay him off too?) And how did they cause the French, British, Syrian, Russian (etc.) intel services to create knowingly-fake intel? I mean, this is a question I have a lot. I get a lot of people with your point of view here, but not once has any of them dared to provide an answer. (Which would seem to suggest that perhaps they don't have one, eh?) And how, pray tell, are "oil prices" being "artificially inflated"? (And even if so, how would that prove the government suffers from "imperial lust"??) Or perhaps the idea that the few, ancient refineries we have experience down-times sometimes is all another neocon lie, created whatever cabal you envision orchestrating events behind the scenes?
I agree that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was false: typical Johnson. But "false pretenses"? No, sorry, the USSR really *did* want Vietnam as another satellite, and the allegedly-fictional "dominos" really *did* fall when we walked away. 1.7 million or so dead people has an impact on my thinking, Tyler. I try to learn things from that. Yours? And yes, some people got rich from that war. News flash: Some people make money in every war. But that little factiod doesn't immediately get us to the conclusion that was why we went into war, or why the public supported it. The difference between "history" and a "conspiracy theory" is the requirement for evidence to connect those dots -- or not, respectively.
Yeah, I remember how much "the wealthy" pulled in from our Tsunami aid. Not to mention the killing "the wealthy" made in Bosnia. Bill Clinton was sure in Haliburton's pockets in that case, I tell ya. And I'm pretty sure "the wealthy" were the main forces behind our involvment in WWII, Korea, and heck, even Grenada. (You say I sound stupid to you, and I have no doubt you mean it. But you have no idea how misinformed you also sound by saying such things.)
I agree, and you have no idea how scary I find that thought. It's a shame to see how badly-educated so many of my fellow citizens are. I know that's harsh: but I don't mean that as an insult. But think about it: you're going on here claiming that US bases -- presumably in places such as Korea and Germany -- prove the US "lusts" for "imperialism". As if you had no historical context as to why they appeared, and no geopolicial understanding of why they remain. Other forces -- such as the government of South Korea, or Communist regimes -- simply don't make any apperance in your narratives. Such threats and players were apparently simply conjured up by "the rich" in order to get us into pointless wars, and make a few more dollars off bullets.
The Republican Party is *terrible* on the budget. But if you care about that, how can you possibly support, directly or indirectly, a party which is even worse? ... nonsense social issue screaming... Quick question for you: (Hey, you wanted to engage in a dialog, so here you go) Are you in favor of having your kids taught, in public schools, that male/male "marriage" is just as good and normative as male/female? Do you think it's 'nonsense' to be concerned about, for the first time in history, changing the definition of one of society's core institutions, with no data whatsoever about what that will do? Isn't that just a bit "radical"? Even if I disagreed, and thought it was an unqualified good move, I wouldn't disparage other people's concerns as "nonsense-screaming", as you do. ...anti-intellectual... Well, at least you're engaged in a reasoned debate. Showing how "intellectual" you are. Unlike me, who'se just sitting here, calling my opponents names. Names such as, say, "anti-intellectual." (Can anyone say projection???) ...safety net slashing... Another question: Which "safety net" got slashed? Please name it! And tell me why it would have been bad to have been slashed. (This should be interesting.) ... torture advocating... So you're saying you would *never* attempt to get information from a terrorist suspect by making them physically uncomfortable? Again, I think these are reasonable questions, Tyler. Care to dialog? ... scandal ridden ... Yes, there ARE NO SCANDALS among Democrats. Alcee Hastings? William Jefferson? Never heard of 'em. Government doesn't corrupt -- only Republicans have that problem. Sigh. Must be nice to live in a world where one only needs to be concerned about, or notice, scandals in one party. ... bill of rights shredding... Examples, please? Perhaps I'm just in the dark about this tremendous loss of civil rights under Republican initiatives. Or perhaps I've just looked into them more than you have. ;-) ... corporate whores... Guilty as charged. Finally, you got one right. Yes, I admit it: I love corporations. They're not great, but they're so much better than government. I want there to be lots and lots of corporations. I can't respect anyone who claims to still be in the party, or at least that can still say they are proud of it... I start my thinking by applying the same standards to both parties. Are Republicans corrupt? Yes, sometimes. Are Democrats? Much more often. Do Republican overspend? Yes, quite a lot. Do Democrats? Yes, even more. I'm not currently "in" any party. But I do have a responsibility to at least support the lesser of any two evils offered, and to use the same metric in each case. Proud of what? Being on the wrong side of every social issue in the last... 100 years? Tyler, if you don't realize that the Democratic Party was the political wing of the KKK, you have no business entering a voting booth. Betraying their smaller government plank? Well, I agree here: So shall we vote for the socialists? Or bring them into power by indignantly not-voting? If my accountant was caught stealing clip-pads, maybe I should replace him with a convicted grand larcenist? Or just be silent when I know a serial killer is applying for his vacated position? Good heavens man: THINK. You don't replace something bad with something worse. That's idiocy. If a cop was found taking bribes, you don't start asking the Hell's Angels to protect your community. And your criticisms come across as hypocritical anyway: You can't complain one minute about (imaginary) "safety-net slashing" and the next minute complain they're no longer in favor of a "smaller government". Screwing the middle class into extinction? Gee, for being "extinct" there's sure a lot of it around. (You're confirming my suspicion you live in a fantasy world, Tyler, not reality.) Selling us out to the Chinese... Err, that would have been William Jefferson Clinton, Tyler. Remember him? The last president, a Democrat, who ran on campaign promises that he'd isolate China ... and then (a) gave them top-secret missile tech in exchange for campaign funds and (b) gave them MNF status, permanently allowing them to trade with us? Nope: You're not serious at all. If something was done by Democrats, it disappears from your mind, apparently. I'd love to hear why I should vote for one of the pitiful candidates being offered up this go round... Because they're not Ron Paul, and they're not Democrats. They *all* have that advantage. You have no idea how unpleasant it is for me to say such things, Tyler: I *want* a smaller government. But one thing I've learned is how to detect a fruitcake, and Ron Paul (and a large number of his followers that I've encountered on the net) trigger every single warning system I've cultivated. You see Ron Paul as the idiot... (Correction: an idiot. There are so many.) I do indeed, and state exactly why. ... but that's how everyone sees the whole panel except for blind loyalists. Oh, well by all means, if "everyone" doesn't agree with me, I'll certainly start conforming now. Good thing I have such radical non-conformists as you to remind me that should be my primary concern. (Who "blindly" follows the crowd here, again?) Tyler, I believe what I believe for the exact reasons I state. I'm no "blind loyalist" and I have plenty of criticisms concerning Republicans. You probably don't intend to, but you are repeating the kinds of narratives that guys like Ward Churchill make up. I know history a least a bit, friend, and a lot of what you're spouting is just wrong. And it comes from *the left*. If you think you're in favor of small government, rationality, or ethics, then *think* about what that means, mmmkay? They are not your friends, they are not warm, they are not fuzzy. And they are not a reliable source of accurate information, much less moral guidance. (Even though Ron Paul also apparently thinks so, too.)
Ah, well we get to the gist of the matter, don't we? You're a secularist. Ta-da! Big shock. (Note: Lots of Christians also think evolution may have happened -- but they're not generally ranty about it. That's my tip-off here.) No offense, but I increasingly find the phrase attributed to GK Chesterton is right: People who don't fall for God-belief often fall for far stupider things. Are there a lot of people who have wrong view of what happened several billion years ago? Undoubtedly. But that's not nearly as bad or troublesome to me as people who have a wrong view -- as you do -- of things which happened only ten, twenty, or even just 150 years ago. Of US and world history. Of other cultures and religions. (Ron's complete ignorance regarding Islam, for example.) Of the reasons we have military bases abroad. Of which party supported the KKK and opposed civil rights. That ignorance makes you far more dangerous to our freedom, Tyler, than anyone who is wrong about the mechanism by which, say, mammals appeared. Those who don't history end up repeating it -- sometimes enthusiastically. Again, I know this comes off as harsh, but I don't hate you, and I don't even dislike you. But lies are dangerous things, friend, and I'm trying to be honest. And you're certainly not alone in many of the things you're saying. I find that chilling, but it's a big reason I write this blog in the first place. Lies have always been a precursor to loss of freedoms. Being well-intended about it, or spreading them (even unintentionally) in the name of a good cause (better government, for example) doesn't insulate us from paving roads to hell. We have to look carefully into the evidence, and let the evidence correct our wrong ideas. If you want more info, feel free to write back. If not, I wish you the best in any scenario. Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on June 25, 2007 03:01 AM :) good, I knew you seemed smarter than that. Exactly the elaboration I wanted in the original post. Honestly... I agree (or have nuanced differences) with you on a lot of the issues addressed. It'll take me a bit to respond to all that but I wanted to thank you for an in-depth and interesting response. Posted by: cobaltbluemoon on June 26, 2007 04:08 PM Add your two cents...
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Very intelligently stated argument. I don't see that out of the right very often nowadays, it's all evolution,Bad! and Just Say No garbage. I wonder if Muslims realize they already have Umma through Allah's gift of oil(for another 50 years or so anyway).
2 points that I couldn't disagree with you more on though...
-"US government is the enemy of the American people and their values."
To a great degree he is right. With the erosion of states' rights and subsequently the individual's, the feds are in virtually every aspect of your life. What right to privacy do we have now? The right all others stem from that unfortunately was such a common sense assumption that the founders didn't explicitly enumerate it. Republicans have lead the charge in whittling away at privacy rights, and the pursuit of happiness it allows, through the wars on drugs, sex(covering a bare-breasted statue of Justice, please), and now terrorism.
-"What imperial lust?"
Are you kidding, really? I think maybe this is at the tail end when you figure the audience is already sold and you can drop in... less solid assertions. You come across as too smart to say something that dumb so I'd like to read more on why you don't think... manifest destiny, the Indians..., how we aquired Hawaii, an insanely funded military-industrial complex, annexing Iraq(yes, we have.), assasinating foreign leaders, never de-mobilizing from WWII, worldwide military bases, etc. aren't the least bit imperial.
I'm not even necessarily opposed to Imperialism and being the new Rome, but don't hypocritically give me feel good praise-America-first fluff instead of our real motives that are clearly following PNAC.
"What are we getting...from Iraq?"
"We"? nothing. People who make enough money to be Republicans... Unmetered oil, strategic placement for more war, war profiteering for corps like Halliburton and Carlysle, endless cash dumped into the mil-ind complex, artificially inflated oil prices, etc.
"What did we get from, say, Vietnam?"
Funny you'd bring up another war that was started under false pretenses... more money into the mil-ind complex.
I'm not saying we never engage in humanitarian military aid, but it's a smaller percentage of the time and typically only when it also stands to make the wealthy more money and/or to keep someone else from horning in on our world domination game.
I think my sentiments reflect how a lot of Americans feel, that when the Republican party can be something other than budget exploding, nonsense social issue screaming, anti-intellectual, safety net slashing, pro-censorship, ungodly deficit spending, torture advocating, mercenary hiring, scandal ridden, bill of rights shredding, corporate whores... maybe I'll vote for one again. But at this point, I can't respect anyone who claims to still be in the party, or at least that can still say they are proud of it.
Proud of what? Being on the wrong side of every social issue in the last... 100 years? Betraying their smaller government plank? Screwing the middle class into extinction? Selling us out to the Chinese and Saudis?
I'd love to hear why I should vote for one of the pitiful candidates being offered up this go round...
You see Ron Paul as the idiot, but that's how everyone sees the whole panel except for blind loyalists. Torture, yay. Evolution, didn't happen. Insert generic famous guy in desperation. Reagan, Reagan, Reagan.
Unoriginal schmucks every one (including red ink Ray-gun).
I know at this point you think I'm some ranting, blind with Bush hatred, liberal... in all honesty if a Rep. candidate similar to Alan Alda's character on West Wing presented himself, I'd vote for him. But I won't settle for garbage.
Posted by: Tyler Durden on June 21, 2007 05:43 AM