Unfortunately, one of the sypmtoms of contemporary American Protestant Christianity is the sheer number of people I see who get suckered by these things, and then, just to make it worse, use their connections at church to try and spread it. It's an embarrassment that I've seen this more prevalent in the Christian community than the general populace, or that Christian radio stations even let these people advertise.

It's also quite annoying to have people trying to sucker you at Church. Given what Paul said about people who come to the Lord's Supper to get their fill, and the prosetylizing Jews, I'm sure he'd have some colorful things to say about that practice.

I, in fact, remember going to a church where we had one of these pyramiders going about, and I had to turn to a friend and inform him, "We need to keep Bob from ever meeting him." You see, Bob was prone to these kinds of things, and I didn't want to have to watch another mess. My other friend looked puzzled and then said, "Wow, you have wisdom beyond your years" upon realizing what this guy was going to do, and just how Bob would respond. Thankfully the church had other redeeming characteristics and I went there for a while until some other, much worse things transpired. (For those doubting out there, keep in mind that a church is made up of sinners. You're just looking for the mix of sinners that can help each other get closer to perfection, the goal you can never reach.)

Also, regarding the air purifier scam, just to give a physics background, all of those are horribly over-priced. They cost around $20-30 to manufacture, in low volume even. The markup is, well, impressive. Not quite as bad a jewelry, but still.

And, as a final rambling point, the other sin these schemes like to take advantage of is pride. (The primary one being avarice/greed.) It is very hard to admit that you've been suckered. (I've had to do it a few times, and for a person of my intelligence, the first few times sting. Then you reach a point where you realize that your intelligence doesn't give you wisdom, and heck, you're going to be wrong alot.) It's imperative to admit it, though, and just write off the loss. Put the frobulators you bought on eBay, if you can, and walk away, realizing that getting rich quick is far neigh impossible.

Then, living up to humility, which as C.S. Lewis described as having a truthful estimation of ones self, truthfully realize that you've been suckered, and share the experience with others, trying to keep them from going down the same path.

Unfortunately, one of the sypmtoms of contemporary American Protestant Christianity is the sheer number of people I see who get suckered by these things, and then, just to make it worse, use their connections at church to try and spread it...

I can see how many would see this as a particularly (a) American, (b) Protestant, and (c) Christian phenomenon. Yet contrary to the impression I've probably left above, I don't have that impression, especially.

Above, when I pointed out that they advertise as "Christian", I meant to speak about how they position and market their business, not the demographic upon which they draw.

The people I've spoken with on this blog who were involved in, say, Amway, seemed to be spread among all walks of life and faiths. Many seemed to be functionally secular (the worst cases, generally, and hardest to reach, since they're not violating their ethics), and one of the more prominent ex-Amway IBOs I know is a serious Muslim. The woman I spoke with in line (propagating the XanGo pyramid) said a number of things which strongly implied she wasn't functioning in a faith community.

If you look at Amway's demographics, most of its money is being made overseas at the moment, particularly in Asia. (And Amway's supposedly going gangbusters in India.) These are not particularly "Christian" regions.

In a country where 80% or more self-identify as "Christian", you're hardly narrowing your appeal by positioning yourself that way. There are a lot of people out there who aren't strongly connected to any faith community, but who see a business which casts itself as faith- and family-friendly as a good sign -- just as the folksy-sounding voice on the ads disarms. Even among the skeptics, I suspect that most hear "Christian" as a sign that the person has some scruples.

And of course there are a lot of Christian people who want to spend more time at home, whereas the secular may place less value on that, so there's a strong overlap. But I see that as incidental, not primary.

So what's primary?

I didn't mention that I have heard far more ads on conservative talk stations. Quixtar advertises itself as pro-entrepreneurship far more explicitly than it advertises itself as Christian. And, as Imran is fond of pointing out, there's a strong Republican/Quixtar overlap.

And that makes sense: they're trying to appeal to people, as I said above, who will work hard and believe in moving forward by starting businesses. These are fake businesses, of course, but your primary audience will still be those who like the idea of business.

It's probably true that the the biggest sub-demographic of those, in this country, are Christians. But I should think that is actually a generally positive thing with a smaller negative spin-off.

("My people perish for lack of wisdom.")

I think the reason we get this impression is two-fold: (1) If we're Christians, most of our primary large-scale social experiences will be, of course, in church. (2) Churches are much easier to network in: there's a lot of friendly people, and most have their guard down. You can have a church with 500 people in it, and if 1% of them or less are involved in an MLM, they can easily annoy probably half the church with it.

I myself was approached in church. And this happened in a (fairly good) megachurch where the pastor had taken the excellent step, already, of explicitly banning such behavior from the pulpit. And yes, I knew of about five or six people in the church who'd been involved at least to a small degree in this pyramid. But keep in my that this was just a small number of people in one of the largest churches in the city.

And yes, I reported them to the church leaders, and yes, as far as they know, they had a talk with them. Good for them.

But this goes on outside churches, too: You'll see the non-churchgoing MLMers out there in the county fairs (check!), in bookstores (was approached that way once also), using their colleges and other public places (many college students have posted here) -- and now, placing radio ads and posting signs.

In fact, the fact that we're now hearing MLM on the radio and at county fairs is a strong sign that the people they're signing up do not generally have social networks (such as churches) into which they can easily expand.

(I may actually take such an informal survey next time I pass a XanGo booth. I would expect a majority would not be regular churchgoers. Would be interesting to see if that hunch is right.)

It's an embarrassment that I've seen this more prevalent in the Christian community than the general populace, or that Christian radio stations even let these people advertise.

I agree about the radio ads.

I also agree entirely that churches ought to do a lot more to immunize their members. But one of the problems of churches is that pastors aren't generalists. They get theology (if that) but they're often clueless about economics or math. And they don't realize the devilish nature of these beasties.

I suspect it's the same reason that I've heard pastors of generally socially conservative congregations echo some pretty leftist economic tripe, such as the pastor I recently heard ranting about "corporations polluting the oceans." (I suspect sewage from big cities and trash dropped by individuals is a far bigger problem... and ocean-polluting is pretty far down my list of worries and sins. Genocide bothers me far more, but I never heard him mention that.)

And of course there are a number of churches out there preaching the prosperity gospel. But this is again, far from an American or Protestant phenomenon. It's quite hot in Africa too. And of course, what to do you think drives a lot of the saint-worship and pilgrimages seen in Catholicism? The belief that if we just do the right things, and use the right formulas, prosperity will soon follow. And I suspect that's also a key component to the Catholic-tinged utopian Marxism that swept South America.

I'm not particularly trying to indict Catholics here either. I just think is a general human weakness which true Christianity (of any denominational variety) -- that is, a closer reading of the gospels -- can help mitigate.

As Rob Reiner (who is thoroughly secular) observed: "Life is suffering, your highness, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something." (Princess Bride) Buddhism understands this well too -- but the answer there (which I don't think is helpful) is basically to stop caring and be detached.

Also, regarding the air purifier scam, just to give a physics background, all of those are horribly over-priced. They cost around $20-30 to manufacture, in low volume even.

That wouldn't surprise me.

Not quite as bad a jewelry, but still.

Jewelry! What a great idea! Why hasn't anyone thought of that? After I write the software, I'll start the radio ads as soon as possible... ;-)

And, as a final rambling point, the other sin these schemes like to take advantage of is pride. (The primary one being avarice/greed.) It is very hard to admit that you've been suckered.

And, as a non-final, even-more-rambling response...

Some do play on greed, but I don't think that's always the case. Quixtar "business meetings" *do* ask you to "visualize" excessive luxuries -- as a way of inducing greed.

But my friend got sucked into this simply because she wanted to make a few dollars from home, to spend more time with her daughter. She's one of the least greedy individuals I've ever met.

And the pyramids have adapted: Now Quixtar people come here, no longer saying that this was going to be a doorway to financial freedom, but more that this was a fine way to make a few extra dollars in your spare time.

But you're dead right on pride: Imran says as much too: that these things appeal to a certain demographic, and apparently part of that involves an inability to admit error. And I've certainly noticed that among some of the people I've corresponded with. They've been programmed to believe that "winners" don't quit or have doubts, and they want to be "above average" or a "winner." Well, we're all losers here.

(In fact, Imran called himself "loser" on his blog for a number of years, perhaps because he recognized this and realized it'd been a source of error. I disagree at times, of course, with some of his views, but he also has quite a number of commendable moral qualities.)

I think you're also right about intelligence being vastly overrated -- except, perhaps, as a means of generating (oh-so exploitable) pride. Yes, it can be *very* handy at times. And, in this economy, its highly valued and can sometimes be lucrative. But it's simply not related (positively, at least) to our godliness or ultimate worth. Just as wealth can be a barrier to entering the kingdom of God, so also can intelligence.

(To non-Mike people: I don't mean that God or Jesus is irrational (indeed, quite to the contrary, despite the impression you'll get from some claimed followers). I just mean that wealth keeps some people from approaching God, so does an over-estimation in our own "intelligence" or in this thing called "reason" -- by which we actually mean our ability to reason correctly. Which I'm far from impressed with.)

Then you reach a point where you realize that your intelligence doesn't give you wisdom, and heck, you're going to be wrong alot...

That's certainly been my experience. When I'm honest, I realize that I'm lucky to get through several minutes without a major error.

Put the frobulators you bought on eBay, if you can, and walk away, realizing that getting rich quick is far neigh impossible.

I've encouraged my friend to do this, but she feels she wants to try to sell them individually. And perhaps there will be some positive outcome from that: it doesn't hurt to try one's hand at selling for a while, provided it's done ethically.

Buddhism understands this well too -- but the answer there (which I don't think is helpful) is basically to stop caring and be detached.

You've mentioned this a few times. The first, I figured it was just an over-simplification. However since I've seen it more than once I figured I'd address it (off-topic or no.) Granted, your knowledge of Buddhism is probably greater than mine.

Buddhism teaches that attachment to temporary things brings suffering specifically because they are temporary. However Buddhism also emphasizes compassion. Certain sects do, though I admit I have trouble keeping the various sects straight. Many examples of Buddhist detachment from the temporary for the sake of the eternal have counterparts within Christianity.

I really must go to the wrong APC/WASP/whatever category churches, somehow. My experience has been opposed to yours, where over 80% of the Quixdrones have approached me through church that fall into that category. The other ~20% have been at bookstores (more often Barnes and Noble than Borders.) It seems to be a fairly constant statistic through my life. Maybe spending longer in the south skewed that, since it hasn't been quite as bad out here in the Rockies.

("My people perish for lack of wisdom.")

Aye. And I agree with your points about pastors, although if they're leading a flock, (pastoring) they should probably have a more general sense of the things out there, and have a good grounding in giving good practical advice, especially in contrast to minor iotas of theology.

But my friend got sucked into this simply because she wanted to make a few dollars from home, to spend more time with her daughter. She's one of the least greedy individuals I've ever met.

Quite true. Generalization does lead to omission. No intention to accuse said party, especially if they're reading.

It's a noble and good goal, and the real sin is the lie someone told her that you can get there easily. I look at what I'm trying to do to make a good life for my soon-to-be-here child, and man, this is some hard work. :-)

When I'm honest, I realize that I'm lucky to get through several minutes without a major error.

Wow, you make it that long?!?!?! Can I become your understudy??? ;-)

Also, as a polite request, can you post a link to this Imram guy? I haven't seen his stuff.

Ryan W:

Isn't it sad what passes for "Christian" these days?

Statistically speaking, 0.5 % of population will be attracted to pyramids.....

I was in MLM, in Quixtar / Amway, and somewhere in my mind there was a scenario i've have enough downline that I can make money without much effort. Working from home making full time income is quite exciting.

There, that's the reason people are attracted to it.

Howdy friends! And especially to Imran and William M! (And Ryan and Mike, of course, as always!) To address at least Ryan...

Tim: Buddhism understands this well too -- but the answer there (which I don't think is helpful) is basically to stop caring and be detached.

Ryan: You've mentioned this a few times. The first, I figured it was just an over-simplification. However since I've seen it more than once I figured I'd address it (off-topic or no.)

Yes, it's an oversimplification. And yes, you'll get a different spin or view from sect to sect, just as in any other religion. And yes, there's an emphasis on compassion as well.

But the meaning and role of "compassion" has to be understood in the larger historical context, which is that Buddhism arose as a answer to the problem posed by Hinduism: we are all stuck on a "karmic wheel" of suffering, being re-incarnated life after life. How to stop the ride and get off? We are stuck, we learn, on the wheel by our attachments. So the way to get off is to realize the unity of all things (good, bad, you, me, etc.) and thus achieve enlightenment, and ultimately nirvana (extinction, or cessation of desire, variously).

So "compassion" here is more like sympathy for the poor soul who hasn't yet realized that there is nothing more special about his child than an earthworm, and is thus still suffering. The ultimate solution is the removal of that confusion, illusion, attachment -- that desire. If the desire, the attachment, is wrong, it doesn't give one a very strong reason to mitigate the precipitating factors which caused the suffering.

Buddhism teaches that attachment to temporary things brings suffering specifically because they are temporary.

As I understand it, it's not just because they're temporary, but because not recognizing the ultimate oneness of all is a mistake.

Many examples of Buddhist detachment from the temporary for the sake of the eternal have counterparts within Christianity.

I've thought about this for a long time, and I agree.

There are similarities -- in that, if followed, they can achieve a some similar results. For example, the belief that this world is passing away gives one a framework in which one can stop worrying so much about money, prestige, the future, one's job, other people's opinions, etc. And, to the extent I believe such teachings, I've have indeed noticed a positive impact in my life.

But there are vast differences, even in that particular regard.

Ultimately, the goal of Buddhism is death *of* the self. If I may cite another source...

Buddhism has classically been described as a solution to the problem of pain and loss, which it tried to solve by elevating nonbeing to the ultimate purpose of being. Kind of an oxymoron, but that is why Buddhist koans make sense to Buddhists.

The problem is a classic baby with the bathwater solution. In an attempt to find a solution outside of God (i.e. of Abraham), the only option was denial of being, since that is the end anyway of those who reject God. Why not build a system that embraces the inevitable. It is spiritual suicide elevated to religious dignity.

Issa longs for a hope of continuance, to see his daughter, which Buddhism denies and Christ offers...and yet... and yet... if only he could see...

Quixtar diamonds and IBOAI members sue quixtar.

They also confirm that quixtar prices are much too high and that many IBOs resort to selling products at a loss.

http://team_orrin_woodward.typepad.com/orrin_woodward/files/Complaint.pdf

Joe, u beat me by an hour......

Check this out Tim, Diamonds, well, mega kingpin suing Quixtar, saying Products are expensive and thus Quixtar is an illegal pyramid.

Quite a stunning admission!

For the record, I think Quixtar *should* be illegal. It makes no sense to ban chain letter, but then make the same thing legal as long as people are doing so via products which are "unmarketable to those not participating" inside the scheme.

Simply looking at the FTC rule you've pointed out, Imran (80% outside, I think it was) should make that clear.

I have no disagreement with your argument, Imran, that DeVos's political influence holds back prosecution attempts by Republicans. (Nor do Democrats appear to be interested in criminalizing such behavior either, even though you'd think they'd see at least a political advantage in doing so.)

But in the end I fault us -- the people. US Republican leaders were also generally sold out to those in favor of "open borders" (cheap labor for businesses) -- and so were Democrats (future voters). But people raised a loud enough noise that those bills failed. So it can be done, but a lot of people have to want it.

Instead, they're running around doing these things and justifying them, still. Hopefully, at some point people will say "enough", and efforts like yours are a big help in that direction.

Thank you so much!

Man I am so upset. My dad goes from one (the same freaking air purifier) network marketing scam to another (now on that Xango). I went with him to a meeting just last week because I wanted to make sure it was what I worried about. I have no idea how to get him to listen to me. My sister in law was WAY in to Amway and gave them her money which she didn't have any of. I wish ALL these kinds of scams were ilegal.

I wish ALL these kinds of scams were ilegal.

Me too, Larkin, me too. Thanks for commenting.

Quixtar terminating some of these diamonds may send a message for the AQMOs to clean up their acts. Time will tell.

I got tricked into a Xango meeting about 2 years ago. It's a similar concept to quixtar except their product line is limited to the Xnago juice (Which tastes horrible).

But they did not wear suits to their functions and they aren't quite as pushy as quixtar IBOs.

I found some of the notes I had from the Xango meeting. Here they are:

I was sort of tricked into a Xango meeting. I was actually invited to dinner at a hotel and my wife and I accepted. Upon arriving, I see a sign that says “Xango Live 2006”. I felt the shivers running up my spine as I wondered if this was the dinner we were invited to. The people there were generally not friendly, and they did not dress up in suits, but more casual attire (which I liked).

We finally meet our friend, who brings us into the banquet room. Inside there is a nice Hawaiian Food Buffet (I’m from Hawaii). Sure enough, there was a nice dinner waiting for us. We sat down and had a nice dinner, but I whispered to my wife that the “pitch” is coming. During our dinner, our friend introduced me to a “big whip” who introduced himself as Henry. He said “Hi, I’m Henry, and I make $30,000 a month and I recently bought a BMW in cash”. I thought to myself about how humble this guy was. Also during the dinner, there were bottles of Xango on the table. I sampled it and it was like drinking a shot of cheap whiskey (It had a bite!). I thought it tasted awful.

The meeting started with the national anthem and then much like an amquix function, they did what appeared to be “pin recognition”. In a room of about 600 people. They introduced the 1K (1,000), which they said was the believer’s level (sound familiar?). There were 20 of these achievers. Next up was the 5K’s, and there were eight. Then the 20K’s and there were 3, and then Premiers (You need to sponsor 2 – 20K’s), and there were 4 Premiers. Next up were the “big pins”, or the 100K’s, there were three and that was the highest “pin” there.

Next up, there was a speaker who told the audience about the company. Xango, the drink is made from the mangosteen fruit, and the company claimed to be a world market leader. They showed the biggest companies in the direct selling business. Based on the chart I saw, Avon was #1, Alticor was #2, and down the chart was Xango, at #5,

The speaker went on to talk about Xango being a cash rich company, they are not a “soap weeping” company.( I guess it was a cheap shot at quixtar). Xango is currently in 14 countries but they are looking to expand to 90 countries. They currently have 600,000 IBO’s, and they eventually will become a household name like “Band Aid, Starbucks, Coca Cola, etc”.

The speaker then asked the audience to raise their hands if they received a health benefit from drinking Xango. About ¼ of the audience raised their hands and the speaker said “see, about 80% of you benefits from Xango”. My wife nudged me and said the speaker had it backwards, 80% did not raise their hands. We chuckled.

Next up, they had their top IBO come up to talk about recruiting. He said to remember that you are the messenger, not the message. He spoke about various ways to prospect. He spoke of the internet, the airport, the gym, starbucks, malls. He also suggested you sneak a bottle of Xango when you go to a restaurant. He said you don’t need to open it, just bring it so people will ask you about it, then you share. He spoke of the “meat market”, which is anywhere you go and interact with people in person. He finished off his speech with “Some will, some won’t, so what, next!” Gee did that sound familiar? Anyway, the rest of the night was filled with motivational speakers who spoke about using their “system” to learn more. The system consisted of cds, books, conference calls, and functions, although I do not know what the cost of the system was.

In summarizing, I must say that the Xango conference was similar to an amquix function, but the people dressed casually, they did not mention religion, and they did not get overly hyped when a new speaker took the stage. However, in the meeting, there was no mention of what their product did for you, or what benefit you could gain by using it.

From what I was told, it costed $35 to sign up and a bottle of the Xango drink was $35 each. My friend has not called us to follow up yet, but there is a chance we will sign up so our “friend” won’t call us about the opportunity again. Does that sound familiar?

Current Forbes article. Notice the word "Pyramid" in the article:

http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/forbes/2008/0811