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Though I sometimes bash the more obnoxious examples of atheists on this blog, I like to give credit where due. I'm am often sad about the confrontational approach many atheists take towards "believers" as I believe many of us could be natural allies in a number of areas. We both (should) believe in an objective reality. We both (should) place a very high value on truth, and believe that we should follow the truth no matter where it takes us. We both should really, really hate lies, no matter who says them. Take, for example, debunking charlatans. I've witnessed a number of events which I can only describe as miracles. Yet, from my experience, they don't happen "on demand" -- and I'm not even completely sure they violate the laws of physics (perhaps only probability). (And even if they did, ordinary laws of physics still rule 99.9999% of the time, so it's nothing you want to bet against in any regular way.) So I consider many who purport to be "Christian faith healers" (and clearly profit from that charade) as much as problem as palm readers and peddlers of perpetual motion machines. But James Randi considers me an enemy, so, well, whatever. So I find Ilya Somin's non-hateful, non-angry approach very refreshing. In particular, I like the fact that he rails against one of my pet peeves: the "used to justify" argument. If X is "used to justify Y" (where Y is bad), then X must be opposed. Of course that's stupid: concern for the poor was used to justify socialism and totalitarianism. Both are harmful, but it doesn't mean we should suddenly be opposed to 'concern for the poor'.
Wow. An atheist who gets it. And so publicly. So sad that atheists like Ilya aren't heard from much -- and are even being actively assailed by guys like Dawkins for coddling and making peace with us dangerous religionists. I loved this line too:
Amen! I know my own life, and the life of many of my co-religionists. We go to church potluck meals and social groups. We give money to charity, including secular charities. We usually attend church (when not tempted otherwise) where we sing songs about God being good, and given a sermon which often leads us to feel more humble or incites us to care more about other people. Really, that's probably better for a person than the equivalent amount of time spent watching TV. So I'm always tickled when I hear angry sorts like Sam Harris describe people who have religion as the biggest threat to the known universe. Please. As Ilya points out, we should be more concerned about, say, the atheist government of Burma, who is committing atrocities, than the brave Buddhist monks or Christian Karen insurgents who bear the brunt of their wrath. Unlike Ilya, I don't mind when atheists proselytize. I think every group should make a vigorous argument in favor of its beliefs. But it's possible to be in favor of one thing and not need to be quite so angry and hostile towards everyone who sees things otherwise. And when we hear atheists talk about or imply the revocation of the civil rights of their opponents (as Harris seems to, when he says we shouldn't "tolerate" such practices), we should all be quite concerned. Tom! Welcome! Sadly, I haven't read your other response(s) yet. But I want to you know I have strong agreement with much of what you've written here. To address all the positive stuff first: Their are also social justice issues, like combatting the sexual trafficking of women. In fact, I believe that should be the number one issue we can all agree on. I agree entirely! And of children. Some of the stories are heart-wrenching. Yet we turn a blind eye to (and even subsidize, indirectly, through our military) sexual slavery and trafficking in places like Thailand. I would also add that I think clean water and microloans would seem to be good but uncontroversial causes, as well as what I'd consider basic human rights, including the linchpin right to speech, conscience, and religion found in our first amendment. America is religious precisely because it is a secular government that allows for religious belief, and, in the absence of a state church, has a religious marketplace where religions must compete for congregants. Or even non-congregants, as it were. ;-) Again, I agree entirely.
One thing that annoys me is when some theists accuse atheists here in America of wanting to turn this country into the Soviet Union. NO I DON'T! I think both sides appear tempted to see the other in such terms. Sam Harris, for whatever reason, seems to have been elevated to a position of prominence, and seems to be saying we shouldn't "tolerate" religion. That can't help but remind people of, say, the USSR. Similarly with secularists who want to ban kids from reading a bible during recess, wearing red or green clothing during a "Winter" party, etc. Likewise, there are some Christians who don't have the same positive view of American religious pluralism that you and I share. The problem comes in, though, when we consider the relative numbers and percentages. I don't know of any hard data on the matter, but having wandered around quite a number of churches in the last two decades, getting to know the people, I've never met even one Christian who, to my knowledge felt that the power of the state should be used to, say, criminalize atheism. Or promote their particular religion. (Though I would guess most would want to preserve whatever vague historical theistic/deistic traditions or references we already have, such as convening the Senate with a short prayer, or the tiny crosses on the LA county seal, which reference the city's founding as a mission.) Now of course such people do exist, but they're in the vast minority, it seems to me. (If you think otherwise, let me know.) Most know full well, as James Madison said and you have echoed, that religions do better in a free market of ideas. I've never met a Christian who, to my knowledge, felt otherwise. So I laugh when I hear that I supposedly want to impose a "theocracy". As you exclaimed, I do not! Nor does anyone I have ever met. On the other hand, though you and I probably share the same view of the economic utility of lawyers such as John Edwards, most atheists or secularists today do not. Not just a tiny minority, but surveys seem to show that about two thirds of secularists end up supporting the more "socialistic" of our two parties. (I have my own theories why this should be so, but regardless, it's an interesting observation.) Given that, it's understandable (though unfortunate) that people tend to lump "leftist" or "socialist" and "atheist" together. The antidote is to do exactly what you're doing above -- and speak out, and try to influence those who are likely to agree with you in other areas, as I (occasionally) attempt to do likewise. And also, if you happen to know of examples of Christians who do want outlaw other beliefs, then please them to my attention so I can disagree with them publicly. You have my complete support on that. Best to you! - Tim Posted by: Tim (Random Observations) on November 3, 2007 10:03 AM Add your two cents...
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Oh, I had to chime in on this post too Tim.
I agree, theists and atheists should not be natural enemies.
I totally agree that ostensibly secular regimes like Stalin's USSR or Mao's PRC committed horrible crimes. And from that, there is a very important lesson to be drawn. They show the futility, as well as the horror, of trying to shove one's ideology on others by force.
One thing that annoys me is when some theists accuse atheists here in America of wanting to turn this country into the Soviet Union. NO I DON'T! America itself is my model, not the Soviet Union. America is religious precisely because it is a secular government that allows for religious belief, and, in the absence of a state church, has a religious marketplace where religions must compete for congregants. The same freedom that allows you to practice your religion allows me not to practice any religion at all. I wouldn't want to have it any other way.
I also agree that both theists and atheists should be natural allies in combatting frauds like John Edwards and other charlatans who claim they can communicate with dead relatives and such.
Their are also social justice issues, like combatting the sexual trafficking of women. In fact, I believe that should be the number one issue we can all agree on.
Regards,
Tom
Posted by: Tommy on November 2, 2007 01:23 PM