Tim,

When I first started using my Mac, I would minimize windows. When Apple added Expose', the era of minimizing windows ended. I have found that minimizing windows is actually a needless thing to do, and quite a waste of clicks. It's awesome having all your windows open all the time. In my opinion, the point of minimizing windows is to make them easy to find when you want them back. Well, with Expose and spaces, they are always easy to find. I can get to any window on any desktop in a move of the mouse to a hot corner, and a click on the window. I don't have to go wandering through some taskbar, dock or alt-tab cycle to find it.

As for the highlight behavior you describe it seems to me that grabbing the trailing space is nice if you are deleting, but kinda sucks for copy and paste! If you are highlighting for cut, wouldn't you do Cmd-x, then just hit backspace?

I can't tell you how many times the highlighting in windows (especially in word) drives me crazy because it tries to highlight what it THINKS I want, instead of EXACTLY where the mouse is. I end up having to hold down shift and the cursor keys to get JUST the characters I was hoping for.

I too have noticed that the wireless range could be better.

I'm using Safari on a Mac, and the Tab key does not act for me the way you describe. In this submit form, after the "Comments", tab takes me to the [] Remember info checkbox, then Preview button, then Post button, then Forget Personal Information button. I tried a few pages just to make sure -- tab never skipped a submit button.

http://www.leopardtricks.com
http://www.macosxhints.com

The fact that apps stay running when the last window is closed is very useful, and just behavior you have to become accustomed to. I run a number of apps that are doing some kind of processing, and don't see any need to have extra minimized windows just to keep it running. A simple example, iTunes -- start some music, close the window. Music still plays -- no extra window clutter. Windows actually does this in a way, but you just don't realize it. When you 'close' and application, it keeps a lot of the application cached in memory, so that when you run it again, it comes up quickly. We all know, that in unix, if the application isn't really doing anything, it will end up paged out, anyway. So, what's the harm? Are you really never going to run it again? If it's that important -- use Alt-Q to quit, instead of Alt-W. It's pretty easy to look in the Dock and see the running applications -- no real mystery.

I have never had the wireless icon tell me I was connected, when I actually wasn't. If I ever had the behavior you described, it's because the router had wireless up, but it's connection to the internet was hosed.

Must have:
Quicksilver: http://quicksilver.blacktree.com/

Maybe it's the difference between how we use our Macs, our maybe it will just take a while. I really feel like the Mac helps me do what I want, where I have to work to tell Windows what I want to do.

I just find that I get around the Mac a lot faster, and when i'm on windows, missing a lot of the little things that make the mac easy.

Heh! My plot to provoke you come out of the shadows with Mac-baiting has succeeded! Muhahahaha! ;-)

I have found that minimizing windows is actually a needless thing to do, and quite a waste of clicks. It's awesome having all your windows open all the time.

Do you often find yourself with over a dozen or so windows open? It may sound crazy, but when I'm doing a bit of research, I can easily generate that many windows. Especially when I'm working on one thing and get pulled off on some tangent. And yes, I also use tabs!

In my opinion, the point of minimizing windows is to make them easy to find when you want them back.

I tend to want to use it to push windows to the end of the cycle list. If I'm doing research on A and find a window about B (whose windows are all below A's), I can push windows to the bottom (by minimizing) or bring them to the top (by alt-tab) to group them functionally -- to put relevant ones "near" each other, cycle wise.

I can't tell you how many times the highlighting in windows (especially in word) drives me crazy because it tries to highlight what it THINKS I want...

Regarding Word, I couldn't agree more: it's an example of Redmond's nanny-state politics applied to software. You don't want to select half a word! No, that's impossible to conceive!

But the OS doesn't behave that way, thankfully.

As for the highlight behavior you describe it seems to me that grabbing the trailing space is nice if you are deleting, but kinda sucks for copy and paste! If you are highlighting for cut, wouldn't you do Cmd-x, then just hit backspace?

When I'm not deleting, I usually need to move a word or phrase. So moving the space is useful in most case, because I save both the extra space-removal, and the extra space-insertion when I paste the word into its new place.

Certainly, there are a few cases where one or the other isn't needed, but it's been my experience that the majority of times you need to move a word, you need to move a space with it. Windows understands this, Mac does not.

I'm using Safari on a Mac, and the Tab key does not act for me the way you describe...

How fortunate! I'm running a brand-new, almost-completely virgin Mac (only installed Firefox) and it behaves as described in this comment form (and every other I've tried) in both Safari and Firefox.

So perhaps we're dealing with a software inconsistency issue here. Still, that means some large chunks of users are having my experience.

(And many Mac native forms are even worse: When I try to use something like system preference panels, I can't use Tab to change focus at all. The focus remains trapped in the search window. And why I need the search area available when I'm changing, say, my desktop image is quite a mystery as well!)

The fact that apps stay running when the last window is closed is very useful, and just behavior you have to become accustomed to...

I agree that for expert users, it's quite handy at times. But my point is that many ordinary people seem to make this mistake a lot, over a long period of time.

Not world-shattering, I agree: but it does seem to indicate a frequent disconnect between many users' mental model and what's really going on. (Which is the very definition of a usability weak spot.)

I have never had the wireless icon tell me I was connected, when I actually wasn't. If I ever had the behavior you described, it's because the router had wireless up, but it's connection to the internet was hosed...

For example, when I started to write this note, it took about a full minute to establish a connection. (I was about six feet from the router, with nothing but air between us.) The entire time, the wireless icon generally showed 3 of 4 curved bars -- it wasn't moving, just not quite on full steam. There was nothing indicating whether it was connected or not. (It didn't even list my network.) I had to keep refreshing the web page (and failing) for quite a while before it connected.

On windows, I simply move the mouse over the wireless icon, and it tells me if it's connecting, or connected, or what. If I hold the mouse there, I can watch the progress. I can easily repair it if it gets hosed. There's simply no equivalent to ANY of these functional behaviors on the Mac.

(And, while I'm on the topic: what on earth is "Use Interference Robustness" doing in that menu? I mean, seriously: why would an average Mac user be expected to know what "interference robustness" means and when to deploy it or not? (And there's no "Help..." entry on the same menu -- I'm sure you must go digging through the docs.) That label seems pretty Redmond-y to me.)

I've heard a number of people recommend Quicksilver, so I'll consider getting it. Thanks for the tip!

Maybe it's the difference between how we use our Macs...

Perhaps. And maybe I'll have a different view in a few weeks. But I'm trying only to comment here on things which seem to reflect broken usability rules or capabilities which are completely missing -- not cases where something happens one way on a Mac and another different, but just as reasonable way, on a Windows box.

Believe me, there are plenty of things which suck about Windows too, including the "traps" in right-click menus, where you must wait 15-30 seconds while an entire app is started before it will let you off the menu item; and the aforementioned Word-selection annoying-ness. And the fact there are a jillion annoying little apps which will pester you at any moment.

But I was rather surprised that a number of the annoyances which bothered me back in the 1990s, when I owned nothing but Macs still haven't been cleaned up -- and that new ones had apparently been introduced.

Can't tab around a form? I'm astounded. Yes, I know it works for you -- I'm glad you're not similarly afflicted, but it doesn't fix my world. And I'm reasonably sure I'm not alone.

I had expected generally noticeably better usability. Instead, well, what I consider the "periphery" (look, feel, screen saver, lesser-used stuff) works a lot better, but the core stuff I use all the time (ordering windows, moving text, entering data in a form, using a menu item from the keyboard) works worse, to varying degrees, or not at all.

From a number of the comments I've seen in other places, it seems the common line of response seems to boil down to: "Well, you're not supposed to want to do that." But I do, and often did even before I had to use Windows. I don't see what's so unreasonable about, say, wanting to use the keyboard to enter data or reorder windows, or click that button down there, or access an app window -- or wanting to know, at just a glance, if you're connected to your network or not.

(So you don't know how to pull down a menu and select an item from the keyboard either? I was hoping I'd just missed something.)

Also, while I'm at it, I'm annoyed at having to click the mouse twice as often for everything. For example: click on the scroll-down button in the scrollbar. Hold it. Your window will scroll quickly, as expected. Release it. The window keeps scrolling! (Or not, depending on your exact timing!) You have to click yet again to tell the stupid thing to stop, meaning you have to execute two mouse actions, not just one, when you see your desired text.

Here's another example: Click in the menu bar of a window. Move it. Release the mouse and begin to move it to somewhere else. The window MAY or MAY NOT continue to follow the mouse, depending on the exact timing you use. You have to click the thing again to tell it you're done moving it. Once again, lifting your finger off the button failed to impart information to the OS, such as "Okay, I'm done now", which is the most typical and intuitive meaning of such a movement.

When I'm using a drill, I don't have to release the trigger and then press it again quickly to tell it to turn the motor off, for example.

(A few fancy models give you this capability -- if you press a small stud. But even then, there's a noticeable "click" which indicates when the trigger has latched into place. Using a visual cue (the button stays lit -- how helpful) is completely lame when your eyes must be focused elsewhere.)

Again, just a little detail about understanding how a naive user's mind works, and how to mirror the world with which we're familiar in software. And once again, a case where the Mac doesn't do it particularly naturally or intuitively.

I'm sure most Mac users, over time, learn to work around these little oddities. But that kind of misses the entire point.

Really, I'm not trying to run the Mac down or anything. I just bought one, and have owned far more Macs than Windows boxen, so I'm hardly classifiable as a Mac-hater. I just happen to think that things should be kept simple, that they should mirror real life, and that minimum work should be required to do any given action.

None of these will cause cancer, or genocide, or massive amounts of suffering. They're just small (but frustrating) annoyances and wastes of time. I'm just a little disappointed, that's all.

Just a short note, when you first switch to the Mac, there is an adaptation period. However, once you get past it, you'll find that it really does flow easier.

Just a short note, when you first switch to the Mac, there is an adaptation period. However, once you get past it, you'll find that it really does flow easier.

(a) I'd say the same thing about "vi". ;-)

(b) I'm not trying to be negative, but in many cases, I don't think so. The mouse stuff, for example: did it for years and it never seemed natural; always felt much less nimble, and much clumsier -- like I was wearing sticky gloves. Perhaps I'm just weird for thinking that a press-and-hold button should stop doing its thing when you release it. But if so, it's a very ingrained kind of weirdness for me.

I'd honestly forgotten about all that, since it's been almost ten years now.

(c) Is it possible, perhaps, that Mac users are just learning to live with a lower level of functionality in some of these areas, much as they (rightly!) accused PC users of doing back in the 1990s?

Well, I'll keep using it and find out.

Omigosh!

In my previous comment, I wondered aloud if Mac users had just become used to a lower level of productivity in some areas than PC users.

Also, while I'm at it, I'm annoyed at having to click the mouse twice as often for everything. For example: click on the scroll-down button in the scrollbar. Hold it. Your window will scroll quickly, as expected. Release it. The window keeps scrolling! (Or not, depending on your exact timing!) You have to click yet again to tell the stupid thing to stop, meaning you have to execute two mouse actions, not just one, when you see your desired text.

Weird. Once again, it doesn't work this way for me. I tried it just now, doesn't act that way for me. Hint: Use two finger scrolling, instead of mousing all the way over to the scroll-buttons. If you have two fingers on the trackpad, that will scroll in the window.

Hi! And thanks in advance for everyone's patience and help!

Use Exposé and spaces! You can get to any other window in the 'stack' in just a couple mouse moves.

I agree that Exposé is pretty neat: but I was hoping to avoid constantly moving hand from the keyboard to the mouse or trackpad every time I wanted to switch windows. I do this for a living, so keeping the wrist movements down is somewhat important to my health.

Interesting -- i double-clicked a word to highlight it, then dragged it and dropped it to another place in the paragraph. It grabbed the 'right' spaces from the original word depending where i drop it! Try it!

I just did! And it moves the word directly next to one the words in the target area (creating a nonsense compound word), and leaves two spaces behind. As I said above, I'm glad these things work for other people, but I'm not entirely understanding why it can't be an out-of-the-box behavior.

I can tab around the System Preference panels just fine!

A co-worker has a Mac, and today I asked him to try a few of these experiments. Tabs work on his Mac as well. Not in the slightest here.

really don't see it as a mistake that the app is left running...

I wasn't saying it was always a mistake, but it is if you thought it was closed.

If you click on the curvy bars, the pulldown tells you what it's doing.

I'm not trying to be contrary, but mine simply doesn't. It shows a list of networks (which sometimes omits mine) and little else. It doesn't report any kind of progress. Though I agree that I've seen other Macs do this -- they scroll a little message near the icon. Mine doesn't, and I don't see a switch for enabling it.

Again, perhaps I'm just having an unusual experience, but if so, it indicates the quality control has gone way, way, down. Or that they're now shipping them with a screwed-up configuration.

This was in 10.4.x, but is gone in 10.5.x.

My Mac arrived with 10.4 on it, and I decided to play with it for a while, as I heard it was more stable. A friend at work today mentioned that he was having a number of Vista-like Leopard issues, and if he could go back to Tiger he would. So I'm staying put at least for a little while.

Whether I'm doing coding, browsing or media related stuff, I find myself far more productive on the Apple.

Wonderful! I'm honestly glad for you. :-)

I'm just somewhat disappointed that I'm having the exact opposite experience. And again, I want to point out, these don't seem to be "transitional" issues. They seem to be "but you shouldn't want to do that!" issues, where I'm apparently supposed to go back to a demonstrably slower or less efficient way of doing things. (Such as being forced to use a mouse to reorder windows, bring back a window, or examine and interact with menus.)

For example, when composing a comment like this, I usually open two copies of the page -- one to read from, one for the comment form -- and then frequently switch back and forth between them, since there isn't room for both on top.

On the PC, this was as simple as pressing Alt-Tab.

But -- ooops! I just discovered, mere minutes ago, that I apparently shouldn't want to do that: I should apparently be using the somewhat less-accessible Command-` to switch to one, and the (really unpleasant) Command-Shift-` to switch back. And I will also apparently need to learn to memorize which key will do which one (by memorizing the window stack order, of course), lest I end up constantly moving to the wrong window and having to go back twice. As I have been.

Or perhaps I should just get used to moving my hands two times for what used to be a one-key action?

Or perhaps Mac users in general aren't the kind of people who have many windows open and need to switch back and forth between two of them. I dunno. Am I missing something, here? That seems like a simple and common scenario when you have limited screen real estate.

Look into the "Universal Access" preference pane.

Good point. I'd considered that. Checked it again: I'm not seeing anything related to the things I'm describing above. "Enable access for assistive devices" was checked. Tried unchecking it and did a number of experiments. Didn't notice any changes.

I tried reading "Help". Oh my! That was hilarious: Instead of explaining what the different options did (clearly, I shouldn't want to know this), I got a page on "Pressing a group of modifier keys as a sequence." I can see how that's tangentially related, but it's not actually an explanation of any of the available options before me.

Seriously, this is too funny.

[Regarding sticky windows and scrollbars...] It has never worked this way for me.... Do you have "Drag Lock" on?

Nope. My friend at work made the same claim, but I pointed out the same behavior on his computer. Apparently, most people are used to moving a window or scrollbar, and then sitting around doing nothing, holding the mouse still for two seconds (which is apparently the timeout -- I counted) before moving on to their next operation.

Again, great for such people. But, if so, I'm being penalized for being somewhat more productive.

I don't remember having much of a learning curve at all. I remember feeling like -- "that's how I would expect that to work!"

My co-worker had some of the same reactions. He was aghast, for example, that I might be inclined to use a keyboard to navigate among windows or menus. It seems like an obvious ergonomic improvement, but, though he works as a programmer, he apparently doesn't seem to do that a lot.

To me, this sounds like another example of: "Well, you shouldn't want to do that!" -- that I should just get used to a lower level of usability.

Likewise, he'd never used the trackpad for clicking. So I'm apparently, like, really weird because I don't want to move my finger from the trackpad over to the mouse button in order to execute a click -- or move my whole hand down there as often as possible.

I think perhaps that last point explains a few of the differences: Apparently Mac users are used to moving their whole hand down and using the mouse button, rather than utilizing the trackpad. (Or use a clunky mechanical part when a faster surface-tap could suffice.) And the Mac apparently has a number of strange and seemingly counter-intuitive trackpad heuristics (described above), including long, non-cued timeouts which can't be adjusted in the preferences.

Another "just don't try to do that", apparently.

Aha! Okay, discovered that there's an option which causes the Mac (for some bizarre reason) to skip over everything in a form except text input areas -- and apparently it was set by default.

So got that fixed. That was a major annoyance!

You should be able to use F11 to get into Expose mode, then use the Tab key to select the application.

You should be able to use F11 to get into Expose mode, then use the Tab key to select the application.

Great idea! I'll try it.

Thank you very much, by the way, for the help!

Found this on OS X daily: